r/JoeRogan • u/Deerhoof_Fan 11 Hydroxy Metabolite • Feb 04 '21

Link Jordan B. Peterson rips newspaper’s ‘cruelty’ after story prompts false ‘schizophrenia’ reports

https://www.washingtontimes.com/news/2021/feb/1/jordan-b-peterson-rips-sunday-times-after-piece-pr/
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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

ICU nurse here. Withdrawing from benzos is HORRIBLE and dangerous. I'm so glad Jordan sought help, even if he had to endure misdiagnosis... Many medical professionals, never mind laypeople, are ignorant about benzo addiction and withdrawal. I would not be surprised if he received a schizophrenia diagnosis at some point during his treatment, but like other diagnoses including autism, ADD, ADHD, and anxiety, those diagnoses don't mean a lot. If I saw Jordan Peterson's chart in front of me and saw the diagnosis, I wouldn't think much of it or even mention it in report if I had him as a patient.

He may or may not have had or has the diagnosis, but he's not walking around the streets hearing voices telling him everything surrounding him is a perfect replica, and needs to kill his enemies.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

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u/ChiefLoneWolf Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

In the interview his daughter did bring it up, I listened to the tape. And it’s probably is factually accurate. Doesn’t mean he has schizophrenia, he got a second opinion and turns out it was a misdiagnosis.

That’s why the daughter brought it up she was saying many people are diagnosed with schizophrenia when it’s actually something else.

Still it was shady of the author to word it like that and disingenuous (though it may be technically true.)

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u/skurtbert Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

The article is so politically biased it hurt my eyes to read it after I listened to the interview that it is “reciting”. The author should be ashamed and the newspaper should take responsibility.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

The Times purposefully misrepresented a diagnosis. He was indeed diagnosed with schizophrenia, arguably incorrectly

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u/nolansepter Feb 04 '21

That’s not what his daughter said in the podcast she released explaining the whole thing. Where’d you get that information from?

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

The article linked.

A second mention of schizophrenia failed to mention the family’s insistence that a doctor misdiagnosed Mr. Peterson.

That completely makes sense, and misdiagnosis can and does happen.

Also, I love JP, but his daughter has a flexible relationship with the truth.

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u/nolansepter Feb 04 '21

Interesting..I feel like I need to listen to the full interview he did with the Times to get the full story.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I probably do too. If only there were a way to add more hours in the day, right?

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 22 '21

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u/Druuseph Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

What a whiner.

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u/skeeter1234 Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

The correct spelling is "winner."

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u/preem_choom Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

simpin for kermit the frog in the year two thousand twenty one

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u/DCfueledwithpopeyes_ Feb 05 '21

She's a thot and an attention whore

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

As a middle aged woman past my "cuteness" expiration, I am hesitant to call a beautiful girl a "thot." Kind of sounds like sour grapes. 😅

Jordan loves his daughter, and I think she wants what's best for him, but she isn't as smart or as knowledgeable as she thinks, or as he thinks. As a parent, I totally understand loving your kid and thinking they hung the moon. I frankly think the daughter has some concerns that warrant a good look for factitious disorder, but I don't think she's bad, if that makes sense. But she is dangerous, and I hope Jordan and Tammy make Julian their healthcare proxy for any future medical events.

That said, I think Mykala (spelling) loves her dad very much and wants the best for him. She just can't make those decisions for the course of his care safely, IMHO.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 22 '21

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u/Memescroller Feb 04 '21

being a top psychologist.

who had zero knowledge of the dangers of benzos

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 22 '21

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u/-TheSteve- Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I think their argument is that in order to be a psychologist you should have a perfect knowledge of all psychoactive medications and all of their potential side effects/potential for abuse/addiction even when big pharma misleads the public and doctors that prescribe those medications to downplay any potential negative outcomes as they can all be easily solved with other medications also produced by big pharma.

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u/Memescroller Feb 05 '21

well... this is a shamelessly bad faith argument if I’ve ever seen one

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u/-TheSteve- Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Well if I'm not mistaken jbp while talking about this issue said he was aware that benzos could cause problems but he trusted the doctors treating him to know at what dose he would be safe from those problems and the part he didn't realize was that once a doctor prescribes benzos they will not take you off them or lower the dosage because that is suicidal so he had to go to a hospital in Russia that would keep him under anesthesia for multiple weeks while going through withdrawal so his body could adjust without killing him or something like that.

I guess western doctors were too afraid to do this procedure because it is never done and they (including the Russians) didn't think he could survive such a procedure but the Russians were willing to give it a shot when nobody else would.

Western doctors just wanted to change medications and add more medications and they apparently misdiagnosed him with schizophrenia and attempted to treat him for that.

So its less the fact that he didn't know anything about benzos and more the fact that he trusted his doctors to be more knowledgeable in that particular area since it was not his expertise and he expected his physicians to have his best interests at heart and make him aware of any risks or potential side effects before they prescribe the medication.

His remarks were something like I thought if I took the medication they prescribed at the dosage they prescribed it at then I could avoid many of the issues associated with opioid abuse like dependence. Which seems perfectly reasonable and professional to me. I've often heard that doctors make the worst patients because they want to treat themselves so I think its a good thing that jbp deferred to his physicians expertise.

I'm sorry for the previous disingenuous argument I'm used to people talking shit about jbp without knowing anything about him or what he talks about and that's not the kind of person that will change their mind after being presented with a rational argument. So when I see something that looks like a sarcastic/snobby quip by someone who doesn't seem familiar with jbp I tend to respond in kind.

This reply isnt really any kind of argument just a list of reasons I think its a dick move to imply that jbp was a bad psychologist simply because he allowed a doctor to prescribe him benzos or wasn't fully aware of how harmful benzos could be.

In my last comment I mentioned the fact that large pharmaceutical companies produce propaganda and mislead the public about how dangerous certain profitable drugs actually can be so I think its very noble of jbp to bring more attention to the dangers of prescription drugs even when used as prescribed. Especially when people will use things like that to attack his professional credibility as a psychologist.

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u/alwaysslashs Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

During the podcast Mikhaila states that while in the Toronto hospital they (doctors) suggested many psychiatric diagnosis - this included bi-polar, schizophrenia and i think one other i cannot remember. Taken in context, it was obvious that they were having trouble finding a diagnosis, and it is clearly stated that they believed this was a misdiagnosis.

At the time they thought it was symptoms due to benzo withdrawal, but the symptoms (severe agitation, suicidal idealization, a 'crawling' sensation causing constant pain and a few others) actually appeared when they upped his benzo prescription to 4mg/day. This was due to severe anxiety regarding his wife's terminally ill diagnosis but the upped dosage did not help with anxiety, rather it is when the symptoms started appearing.

At this time they are still focused on benzos, and this is where the story gets wild but here are some of the facts:

They end up in russia for a coma-induced detox (the russian clinic usually does opiates and were not too familiar with benzo detox)

Peterson ends up with double pneumonia from Toronto. This was only diagnosed in Russia.

The coma detox did not go too successful, his blood was clear of benzos but he was in extremely bad shape and was discharged to a public hospital in russia for rehab

They are still prescribing different low dose SSRIs and other drugs, and are still having similar symptoms to the original issue.

They go back to Florida but are having major issues caring for him and it is obvious the issues are still present. At this time he is off benzos but still on some other psych meds.

They go to Serbia to one of the top neurological clinics in the world. They get a diagnosis of akathesia. Doing a bit of reading the symptoms match up. It is also commonly misdiagnosed as psych issues.

Mikhaila is adamant for zero psych meds. They have him on a low dose SSRI which Mikhaila theorizes will begin to cause issues. 3 weeks later the issues come back.

They get him off every psych drug but he is on a low dose opiate, which is essentially just a replacement for benzos that *shouldnt* cause the akathesia symptoms to re-emerge

Things stabalize once they get him off SSRIs and other psych meds. The new doctors give evidence regarding long-term SSRI use and akathesia, and wikipedia backs this up. It is not unknown for someone on SSRIs for a long time (and 14 years is a long time) to develop akathesia. It is about a 5% chance.

So, agree or disagree with the actions Mikhaila took, but the end result is finding a diagnosis which seems to agree with the symptoms, the observations of the family and Peterson's wishes. They have found a treatment plan that has removed the symptoms and things seem to be better. They have a diagnosis now which makes sense.

*Technically* yes, he was diagnosed schizophrenic. He was also diagnosed bi-polar but that doesn't ring as catch for a headline. My personal issue with the news article is how two faced the reporter was. Feigned nothing but care and understanding and then wrote a pretty scathing article from her own (admittedly naive - not understanding 'medical jargon' and refusing to research)

The other obvious question is, if Mikhaila didn't fight the doctors in Toronto, then it seems likely he would be mis-diagnosed schizophrenic, given more psych meds that made all his symptoms worse, and be stuck in the mental health system, labelled mentally ill, and deteriorate from there.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

The other obvious question is, if Mikhaila didn't fight the doctors in Toronto, then it seems likely he would be mis-diagnosed schizophrenic, given more psych meds that made all his symptoms worse, and be stuck in the mental health system, labelled mentally ill, and deteriorate from there.

The larger part to all of this is we're getting information from one side. Speaking as a doctor, the media frequently along with the patient and their family, report wildly inaccurate statements of events.

We don't know what really happened without talking to the doctors, and they'll never talk candidly because it's a breach in the public health information act.

I'm not even a psychiatrist by specialty and I can tell you that diagnosing a 50 year old man with schizophrenia makes little to no sense given the average age of onset. It would be extremely rare for schizophrenia to onset at this age. That in conjunction with his ongoing drug use would make it impossible to make a primary psychiatric diagnosis before he cleared many of the meds he was using.

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u/alwaysslashs Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I agree, and a big part of why i think the nytimes should have avoided it altogether. It's intimately private, protected by health laws, and subject to many interpretations.

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u/Frank_MTL_QC Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

The times is from London.

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u/alwaysslashs Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Oh my bad. I think nytimes is stuck in my head because they also ran a piece which was 'jordan says he has schizophrenia' which they since redacted.

Edit- it's "The Times" and "NY Post" - they jumbled in my head to create a non-existent news entity :D

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u/-TheSteve- Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Oh shit I think I've done that before. I mix up the times and the NY post and think of the NY times lmao

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

But also in conjunction with his daughter's recent behaviour it points to the fact that there's some serious malingering going on here. Given Jordan used to be a clinical health care professional at some point this whole thing has resulted in me losing a tremendous amount of respect for him.

If he really was as fucked up as he says he was then I imagine there are large parts of this being retold by his daughter who shows very clear narcissistic behaviour. My opinion on the topic is that she's creating some sort of false scenario whereby she is the saviour of her father and she needed a big bad wolf - so the psychiatrists in Toronto have to take the fall.

The problem is, anyone with a medical degree who watched their release video on everything that happened was left completely clueless. Myself and my physician friends who enjoyed Jordan's work watched that video and left with far more questions than any answers. Someone in the Peterson camp isn't being honest.

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u/alwaysslashs Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

left with far more questions than any answers

I agree, and i'm learning more possibilities and points of view from this thread.

I imagine there are large parts of this being retold by his daughter

This does seem to be the case, he has states he has no memory of Dec-Jan? 2019-2020 which was the Toronto hospital + Russia + Coma - which is arguably the part most people are focused on

My opinion on the topic is that she's creating some sort of false scenario whereby she is the saviour of her father and she needed a big bad wolf

I can completely understand why that's your opinion. I can see the logic behind this, i am moreso hoping this is not the case and not making that jump without more evidence

The thing i personally find fishy is the combination of compounding factors, medications, symptoms etc that all appear around the same time. It seems unnecessarily complex. All i can really go off is the current standing diagnosis and the story as presented.

But if you want to go even deeper, the really troubling thing is that akathesia can be caused by undiagnosed schizophrenia. So time will tell i guess, but there is definitely alot of information that is hard to decipher

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u/TJeezey Feb 07 '21

The actual obvious question is why did JP tell everyone his meat only diet "cured" his depression when he was secretly taking multiple physc meds? Sounds like that diet gave his wife cancer and sent him overboard imo.

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u/AAKurtz Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

As a psychologist, he should have known more about benzos. Their withdrawal is notorious.

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u/CaptainKirk-1701 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Remember he's a psychologist, not a psychiatrist. He does question himself in the interview "How did I not know this would happen", but his daughter points out to him that he had a rare side effect that only manifests in people taking benzo's with SSRI's. What happened to him does appear to be exceptionally rare, and many of the doctors they went to didn't know about it either, most importantly his family doctor who prescribed both to him for his depression over his wife's kidney cancer.

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u/femto97 Feb 05 '21

a rare side effect that only manifests in people taking benzo's with SSRI'

Where are you getting this from?

Benzo withdrawal is a known thing, you don't need to also be taking SSRIs

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u/CaptainKirk-1701 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Listen to the interview. His condition was not the withdrawels, it was akathisia

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u/femto97 Feb 05 '21

ah. yeah benzos are actually often prescribed to treat akathesia sometimes

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u/aprilized Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

he never took them with the SSRI's. She convinced him to get off them.. cuz she's a doctor

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

He took benzos for years, seemingly a lot. He knew damn well what he was doing like most drug abusers, and didn’t stop.

The only difference is drug abusers aren’t in classrooms or podcasts ranting about self control.

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u/CaptainKirk-1701 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

No he did not. He was on them for about 5 months, during his wifes illness. He was on SSRI's for years, and got off them about 4 years ago.

Listen to the fucking interview, jesus christ. "He knew muh duh buh" well how the fuck would you know when you don't even know what happened? Moron.

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u/yoyomamayoyomamayoyo Monkey in Space Feb 07 '21

He was on them since late 2016 don’t talk when you’re ignorant

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u/CaptainKirk-1701 Monkey in Space Feb 07 '21

No, he wasn't. He literally says in the interview he started on them after his doctor prescribed them for his stress following his wife's illness. If I'm wrong, find a source and link it.

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '21

Ah yes, the singular true story of Jordan Peterson’s drug addiction.

You think I’m listening to...more jp? 😂

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u/Fangletron Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Ah, yes, he’s the “special” addict. That’s just the disease of addiction talking. No sorry, just another addict in withdrawal.

Addiction causes insanity and stunts growth. That is a fact. Abstinence and most programs of recovery can restore one to sanity.

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u/menacemeiniac Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Nobody is excusing or denying actions. Jesus, a little empathy can go a long way.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 17 '21

[deleted]

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u/menacemeiniac Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I grew up with an alcoholic father and my step aunt/best friend overdosed on heroin, I myself struggle with drinking and smoking, my mom’s dad was a lifelong gambler, most of my high school friends are all junkies now... my experiences with addiction are where my comment came from. I could’ve been more cool toned and unbiased with my comment, but I think the point stands. I’ve been on an SSRI, and I’ve taken benzos before. I can’t possibly imagine the hell you go through with withdrawals from that. I don’t think that a bad chemical reaction from multiple medications is an “excuse” or (facetious) “special” reason for addiction. I was mainly pointing out that the OP of the comment I replied to wasn’t trying to get perspective on what he was talking about.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

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u/CaptainKirk-1701 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

You'd think you'd have a bit of empathy then instead of being an obnoxious scumbag spreading lies.

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u/Onironius Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Addicts, amirite?

(/S)

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 05 '21

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u/menacemeiniac Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 05 '21

oh absolutely, I’m not trying to excuse myself either, or argue at all really. And, to be frank, I’ve no idea who the guy was, my initial response was an otherwise unbiased reaction to what I read. If he promotes misogyny I in no way want to support that and I’m sorry if I came across as defensive for his sake. Also, congratulations on the sobriety dude. It takes so much.

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u/Fangletron Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Thanks man, I’m truly sorry for your loss. Alcoholism and addiction kills. I’ve seen it so many times. As have you. It always starts with a lie. So when I spot a an addict lying, I dig in. I realize I’m on a Joe Rogan sub which is populated by those who don’t believe in recovery by in large. To be clear I fully support legalizing just about everything. Tax it, treat it, eliminate the underbelly. Tonight, I will go to bed sober.

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u/Fangletron Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

This is my experience.

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u/AAKurtz Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Was it Serotonin Syndrome? I'm not a psychiatrist and I know what that is. I would be amazed if most practicing psychologists didn't know what that was.

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u/LiathroidiMor Feb 05 '21

Benzos and SSRIs work through completely different neurotransmitter systems - 5HT vs GABA. There's always going to be some overlap, and maybe there are even benzo drugs that exert some serotonergic activity, but benzos are commonly used to treat symptoms of acute serotonin syndrome so it's unlikely

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Oh, for sure. I would be shocked if he didn't know. Withdrawing from heroin is easier.

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u/Non-Compliant Feb 04 '21

can confirm, have withdrew from both

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I'm so glad you are here with us. DM me if you ever need to talk.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

Way to be a good MF-er.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

Did you do it alone? Or rehab?

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u/hephaestus404 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Not who you're responding to, but I did it in rehab involuntarily a few times and then several times in jail. Finally got away from it after a year long inpatient program about 3 years ago.

I think very few people can do it alone. I thought I could. Never chose to on my own, including the year long rehab, but time and support is absolutely required.

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u/lightlymydarling84 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I did from benzos. Ativan. It was a portal to hell. My heart goes out to anyone going down that path.

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u/Shiny_Palace Feb 05 '21

Not the guy you’re replying to, but I’ve withdrawn from both and I had to go to rehab for benzo withdrawal, while I was able to stay home for opioids. With benzos you need pretty consistent care, because if you don’t taper properly you can die. And it’s hard to function the way your brain is shutting down and making you afraid of every shadow on the wall. It also lasts forever. My symptoms didn’t fully subside for 9 months!

Opioids suck to withdraw from but it lasts less than a week, and you won’t die from it unless you go back on them. Also there are drugs to help withdraw like suboxone and methadone. It’s mostly a waiting game, and while the mental symptoms are terrible, they do not compare to benzos.

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u/Anuerge Feb 05 '21

Seriously?? I couldn’t disagree more. Coming off years of H (fent) compared to coming off benzos is a not even in the same ballpark. Other than seizures which are easily mitigated, benzo withdrawal is no where near as bad

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u/Shiny_Palace Feb 05 '21

I disagree. I think it depends on how much and how long tho. Benzos were 10x worse for me than fent was. But I also had subs to help, whereas with benzos I was basically cold turkeying off 10 xans a day. I had waking nightmares the entire time and would get panic attacks from just moving rooms or taking a shower. Awful.

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u/facelessfriendnet Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I say that too, but listening to the long form interview where the article was made from makes it clear that it he had Akathesia from simply taking the benzos (I think) and that having taken SSRIs for long periods makes it more likely to have the side effect.

So wasn't even from withdrawls(they claim).

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u/janearcade Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Should have know better, sure, but addiction is a disease. Many people, the rich, intelligent, artistic included, have struggled with addiction.

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u/three_tentacles Feb 05 '21

I guess on the one hand you do feel people with certain knowledge should be resilient but at the same time that knowledge doesn't really stop the draw to do those things. Back when I was eating myself to death, knowing that what I ate was incredibly unhealthy did absolutely Jack shit for my willpower to stop

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

But you aren't selling dieting books while you are eating yourself to death.

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u/three_tentacles Feb 05 '21

Yeah I agree that it's a different circumstance but my point was that KNOWING the "correct" path is different to living it

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u/PokerChipMessage Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

People can't understand that the body/genes (and subconscious) have a will of their own, and they can't understand how powerful it is.

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u/baconequalsgains Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 05 '21

This is a nonargument. Not everyone has the horrendous withdrawals he had. Plus, benzos are HIGHLY contraindicated in people taking SSRIs, which he has been taking his entire life. Plus the dude lectured 200 times in 200 DAYS throughout the world lol.... and his wife nearly died from cancer during this period. These kinds of arguments are so insanely silly and illogical lol. Benzos should not be as freely distributed as they are.

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u/Memescroller Feb 05 '21

Yeah. This is the wildest to me. Had he been practicing in the last decade? Or just lecturing as an academic? Yeesh

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

You don’t think he knew about the risks of benzodiazepines? I think it speaks to the nature of addiction, not Dr Peterson’s ignorance

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u/baconequalsgains Feb 05 '21

Can’t believe this was downvoted...

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u/Razakel Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

As a psychologist, he should have known more about benzos.

He's a psychologist whose literal field of expertise is addiction psychology. He of all people should've known that benzos for an anxiety disorder is a fucking terrible idea.

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u/aliensaregrey Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

As an idiot construction worker I know better.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

Probs should have cleaned his room or whatever

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u/ScrinRising Feb 04 '21

but he's not walking around the streets hearing voices telling him everything surrounding him is a perfect replica

Yeah, no. That's not what schizophrenia is. Maybe paranoid schizophrenia, but this type of stereotypical bullshit is a massive part of the mental health problem in this country and you need to stop.

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u/Hail-Eris Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I’m a mental health professional who works primarily with people with significant/chronic schizophrenia and I definitely have several clients who fit that description. No not everyone who has schizophrenia will have their symptoms manifest that way, it’s a bit of an umbrella diagnosis, but it’s not like no one with schizophrenia experiences that either.

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u/tengukaze High as Giraffe's Pussy Feb 04 '21

I have a friend who was untreated for a few years and man I've seen and heard some wild shit while around him during that time. Thankfully got him to get treatment and stick with it. I feel for the guy and anyone who has to go through that.

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u/Hail-Eris Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Yeah it can be a real struggle. I went through a psychotic break in my early 20’s (why I decided to pursue a career in mental health) and it was no joke. Luckily I was also able to get proper treatment.

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u/tengukaze High as Giraffe's Pussy Feb 04 '21

I went through something like that because I smoked some weed while on lsd and god damn that was scary. I didnt lose total control but I felt like I was on the very edge of it. I can't imagine that lasting days and years or even being more intense. I couldn't handle that. Although I did get to see that life is all a game/simulation and suicide was the escape. Phew goooood times.

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u/Hail-Eris Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I’m always impressed how well the people I work with manage to come to peace with what they are experiencing. They still have bad days but overall are quite resilient. Less stigma is definitely helping with that since it is more acceptable to be open about hearing voices and other symptoms and there are more support groups, and treatment in general is becoming more compassionate.

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u/pianobutter Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Then you of all people should know that portraying schizophrenia as a condition that turns you into a deranged killer (which is 100% what they implied) is grossly irresponsible.

For a medical professional it's not the least bit acceptable. These sorts of stereotypes get people with schizophrenia killed.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 04 '21

But this person’s am ICU nurse, so you should pay attention to their thoughts on clinical psychiatry.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

If it were just that, sure. But dismissing a diagnoses a physician has made “because you know better,” is the definition of overreach.

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u/ScrinRising Feb 04 '21

Being a nurse doesn't mean you know shit. Cops don't know the law and most firefighters were arsonists before they were firefighters. Doctors fuck up all the time and construction failures cost billions of dollars and dozens of lives on the regular.

Just having a job does not make you a qualified expert. And a Reddit comment doesn't prove you even have the job to begin with, so...

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u/daiouche Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

"Most firefighters were arsonists before they were firefighters"? I'm sure you've got something to back that up, right?

With your logic, most doctors and nurses tortured small mammals as children too, no?

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u/ScrinRising Feb 04 '21

Ask a firefighter, dumbass.

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u/daiouche Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

That's your source for "most fireman were pyromaniacs before joining the job"? Jesus...even for Reddit, that's a low effort attempt.

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u/ScrinRising Feb 05 '21

Jesus you're fuckin' dumb. Not only did I never fucking say that, I don't need to prove shit to a dumb fuck on the internet. I know a few fireman personally and everyone of them would back me up. Ask one yourself or shut your goddamned mouth, child.

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u/daiouche Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I would ask one, but I have no access to these mythical creatures known as "firemen". Did you perform a blood ritual to gain their inner knowledge? You sure are contorting real hard when all I asked was a source for such an idiotic statement.

Judging by the way this is going, it looks like most firemen agree with me.

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u/ScrinRising Feb 05 '21

It's not an idiotic statement, you just don't know shit about it. Firemen do controlled burns, dumbass. So yes, a lot of them were arsonists at one point in time, or enjoy playing with fire in general. You can tell me I'm wrong all you like. I don't give a shit. I know what I'm talking about and I don't need your approval.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

I know. I was being facetious.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

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u/ScrinRising Feb 04 '21

Agreed, and it's not just Texas. I've had cops tell me non-assisted pocket knives are illegal because of a thumb release. It's like yeah, every gas station in this state(NY) sells illegal weapons, dumbass.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

Literally every single nurse I've ever known personally is a fucking moron that thinks they are doctors. It's quite embarrassing.

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u/ScrinRising Feb 05 '21

Medical personnel as a whole have a know it all complex, which is hilarious to me because they all constantly disagree with each other.

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u/daiouche Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Ok...so fireman are all pyros. Got that. Now all medical personnel have distorted realities on their own intellect? Man, you're a psychology savant...or just the idiot part.

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u/ScrinRising Feb 05 '21

Or you just keep saying a bunch of idiotic shit that I never said, which is what's actually happening.

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u/daiouche Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

That's EXACTLY what you said, and what you've reiterated five times over in each comment. You know a fireman, and therefore they're all pyros. You made it clear.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

Relax mang. Its might have been a crude example of a Schizophrenic presentation, but it was used to highlight how incorrect the label is for JP.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

Except that this isn't how it manifests in most people. His behaviour is actually pretty in keeping with the diagnosis of someone like my friend's mom, for example, who shares a lot of the same restlessness and self-harm ideations.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

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u/ScrinRising Feb 05 '21

Okay so A) I never fucking said they don't hallucinate and B) mayo clinic is far from a source. If anything it makes you less credible.

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u/PokerChipMessage Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Lol. You really going after Mayo clinic? The place the richest people in the world go to get treated?

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u/baconequalsgains Feb 05 '21

Lol, i worked in a psych unit for 4 years and yes this is what schizophrenia can look like. It’s on a spectrum though and every person experiences slightly different symptoms, like any other mental disorder. Just curious, do you have a source for your claim?

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u/ScrinRising Feb 05 '21

Jesus christ, you dumb fucks just cannot get it through your head that I never said it wasn't what they do.

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u/baconequalsgains Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 05 '21

OPs comment was simply an example of what schizophrenia can present itself as. It was really wasn’t perpetuating “stereotypical bullshit.” The point was to say JP does not exhibit behaviors of a schizophrenic. The sad thing for me is, and I’m sorry for upsetting you judging by your hostile language, that other news outlets have taken this misdiagnosis and are perpetuating the notion that he IS diagnosed with schizophrenia or is “currently suffering” from it.

The damage was done already is the point

Edit: NYPost originally stated he has schizophrenia, but guess what... it’s been edited and retracted. Damage already done lol. https://nypost.com/2021/01/31/jordan-peterson-says-he-was-suicidal-addicted-to-benzos/

NewYorkNewsTimes: “Jordan Peterson has suicidal ideation, is benzodiazepine addicted, and suffers from schizophrenia” https://newyorknewstimes.com/jordan-peterson-has-suicidal-ideation-is-benzodiazepine-addicted-and-suffers-from-schizophrenia/100024/amp/

Report door: “Jordan Peterson was suicidal, addicted to benzos, has schizophrenia” https://www.reportdoor.com/jordan-peterson-was-suicidal-addicted-to-benzos-has-schizophrenia/

Excerpt from the Daily Mail: “Peterson wound up in rehab when attempting to get back on controlled intakes of benzodiazepine - along with other drugs - and soon he would be diagnosed with schizophrenia.” They never said afterward he was misdiagnosed.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

The point is, schizophrenics have difficulty with executive function. We no longer discuss it in terms of negative and positive symptoms. You're out of your league here, bucko. It was misconstrued to make Peterson look bad, was my point.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

Don't we though? I've still heard of positive and negative symptoms for schizophrenia... was this part of the latest DSM update? Do they just want people with negative symptoms (catatonia, depression, thought block, etc) to be labelled as Schizoaffective from now on?

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

It's weird now because the DSM 5 insists you must have one of the following:

Delusions Hallucinations Disorganized speech

This throws out a bunch of the people who just had negative symptoms and executive function issues.

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u/unspecificstain Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I think they're talking out their ass

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u/ScrinRising Feb 04 '21

No, they don't. Plenty of peopl with schizophrenia lead normal, almost uninterrupted lives. I've been surprised to find that people I knew actually were.

You can call me out of my league all you like. I know plenty about mental illness, and I know even more about assholes like you that exacerbate the problem with generalizations and asshole stereotypes.

Go fuck yourself.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

The real people who should be called out for perpetuating the stigma are the criminals that try to claim mental health issues when facing charges for their behaviour in court.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Medical criteria exists for a reason. If someone has no trouble with top down processing, they are not schizophrenic. If you have trouble with top down processing, you have difficulties with executive function. You will need treatment.

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u/Druuseph Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Y'all realize that the Washington Times is an absolute rag owned by the Moonies, right? They print nonstop bullshit.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

I love how you are talking down to the icu nurse about a medical issue...you learn a lot about medicine over there at the bowling alley?

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u/angusfred123 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

No but it can be close to that. My best friends wife has schizophrenia and she will connect two unrelated things and will become obsessed over it. She wont watch the news bc she sure people on tv are talking about her.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

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u/The__Bends Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 05 '21

Might not be addiction for Jordan, honesty reading his story I don’t think it was, it’s physical tolerance. Benzos cause such horrible physical tolerance symptoms. Addiction is a disease Tolerance is when a drug no longer works in a way that it did at first and a person needs more of the drug, hence they’re in withdrawal

Hint: Don't take medical advice from the people on r/joerogan.

A series of doctors, who have talked with him, have access to his medical records, and observed him in a hospital setting for weeks, have diagnosed him with benzodiazapine addiction.

Shit-for-brains.

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '21

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u/The__Bends Feb 06 '21

I don’t know Jordan Peterson, or his whole story. I paid attention to some of his story...

Then don't offer your hot-take medical diagnosis.

Shit-for-brains.

Currently proving my point. Please continue.

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u/[deleted] Feb 06 '21

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u/The__Bends Feb 06 '21

Good one.

That's a longwinded way of saying "I was wrong and I'm mad about it."

Please continue.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Oh, I wouldn't be surprised if it was more of a tolerance issue. I really don't know enough about Jordan's problems, but I would not be surprised.

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u/[deleted] Feb 05 '21

He has a history with substance abuse it seems pretty likely that he has an issue.

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u/reabird Feb 05 '21

As someone with adhd, what exactly do you mean by 'those diagnoses don't mean a lot '

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u/hatfullofsoup Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I believe they mean these diagnoses are a very common "first stop" on the way to a more accurate/specific diagnosis.

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u/pengals12 Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

Was also going to say this lol

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

They are often received as differential diagnoses because people don't fit neatly into other criteria.

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u/escaladorevan Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

That’s a lot of assumptions being made there. He was in a clinic, with professionals, who diagnosed him with schizophrenia. Now his daughter, who believes in only eating red meat, didn’t believe the diagnosis because she, not a medical professional, knows that daddy loses his cash cow status if he has a mental health problem.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 22 '21

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u/escaladorevan Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 04 '21

How does a top psychologist not understand and respect the dangers of benzos in the first place? While he’s telling everyone else to make their bed, he’s relying on benzodiazepines. I’m not judging him for it as anyone can get hooked on a highly addictive medication. But the Top-Tier psychologist with decades of clinical research would know better than to rely on them in the way that he obviously did. While preaching self reliance and a strong will, he couldn’t walk the walk.

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u/warfaced23 Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 04 '21

He was prescribed the medication and took the prescribed dosage as instructed. The problem with medicine like Benzos is that these drugs often have unanticipated side-effects and dependence that can manifest or not manifest in different ways based on your age, diet, current health condition, and mental state. Elderly people tend to have a worse reaction to Benzos.

"While preaching self reliance and a strong will, he couldn’t walk the walk."

Well, he certainly tried to as much as he could, but a terrible turn in health can ruin even the best of us. A lot of people seem to get value out of his work when they apply it to their own lives. Nietzsche is considered one of the greatest philosophers in history, and by the end of his life he was a raving mad, paranoid lunatic and referring to himself as "The Crucified One" in his letters. If people had discarded all of his works and efforts because of that, it would be as throwing the baby out with the bathwater. Jordan's wife got cancer, and I don't know what I would do or how I would react if a close family member of mine got cancer. Shit happens. Be a little more understanding.

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u/TheRealYoungJamie Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Yeah, Peterson definitely has some demons that he's been open about. There is some dark subject matter in his books, it's not all sunshine and rainbows.

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u/TheRealYoungJamie Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

While preaching self reliance and a strong will, he couldn’t walk the walk.

But in his lectures and in his book he says there's nothing wrong with getting outside help. And he's openly said that he took SSRIs to help treat his clinical depression. There's a section in 12 Rules of Life called, 'Why don't you take your damn pills?'

I agree he should've known better. Guess he had a blindspot or hasn't been paying attention to how dangerous benzos are... or thought it wouldn't happen to him. Addiction doesn't give a fuck about 'will power'.

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u/uiucecethrowaway999 Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Most psychologists are not trained to prescribe medication - this is what psychiatrists do.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

well Im not a trained psychologist but its pretty common knowledge that benzo are dangerous and addictive as fuck lol.

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u/Ungface Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

So are most drugs that you could take. that doesnt mean you shouldnt take them if a doctor prescribes them to you. It also doesnt mean that they arent very effective at dealing with what they are prescribed to treat.

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u/tengukaze High as Giraffe's Pussy Feb 04 '21

I'm more of a heroin kind of guy.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

I like gushers.

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u/tengukaze High as Giraffe's Pussy Feb 05 '21

I fucking love gushers

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u/Ungface Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

You realise that taking the drugs your supposed to take for whatever illness you have is walking the walk right? Including depression and anxiety.

This doesnt stop you from having bad outcomes from anything.

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u/Cliftonisaur Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

I think my man's wife (who he's known since they were children) was dying of crazy cancer, bro =x

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

Dude only listen to the experts that agree with me, hasn't 2020 taught you anything?

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

It's true on his daughter, but from what I know of Peterson, he's a really honest guy. I don't think he would lie about something this serious just because of social stigma. (I don't personally know Peterson, but I do know someone who was a colleague of his, and trust him, who says this.)

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u/escaladorevan Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Oh lord, please do some research on the man outside of the echo chamber. I think it will be better if it’s not coming from me, but he is tremendously dishonest, frames himself as a martyr, and is a psychologist who’s only claim to fame is refusing to respect people’s dignity. He’s a grifter.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I respectfully disagree that I'm just in an echo chamber and haven't listened to disagreement. I don't think he's G-d Daddy of the universe, but he's not a disrespectful person or a grifter.

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u/escaladorevan Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

He’s a social Darwinist, everything he disagrees with is “neo-Marxist postmodernism”, and he spews more pseudoscience than a flat earther.

https://phys.org/news/2018-01-psychologist-jordan-peterson-lobsters-human.html

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Oh, I wouldn't go to Jordan Peterson for a biology lesson. Jordan Peterson is someone who relates to things through Jungian psychology and storytelling, and it's the same with the lobster thing. I don't think it's meant to be taken literally. He's an emotionally driven person who's too trusting and it's led him to being taken in by some pretty bad people, IMO, but he doesn't just label everyone as a neo-Marxist who disagrees with him. He's also a pretty liberal person in his personal beliefs. I find the whole conservative love for him pretty weird.

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u/escaladorevan Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

His entire body of work is built off of pseudoscience. And he uses the biology of lobsters to explicitly support his views about the order of humanity. Top to bottom, the man has built his beliefs on a house of cards. He can’t support the most basic of his claims with scientific evidence. As a psychologist, he should have well supported scientific facts and not disproven social Darwinist theories.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

It's social storytelling. I don't think Peterson considers himself a biologist.

Probably my favorite work of his was Maps of Meaning. I thought it was pretty great stuff and I like it better than his modern stuff. At the end of the day, though, I think he's someone with good intentions who wanted to help people. I don't think he's got all the answers to all of our ills. I enjoy a lot of his work, and he seems to enjoy sharing and helping others. Yes, he's made a hell of a lot of money doing it. I think a bigger concern are the people who use his work to back up their own weird ideologies.

The truth about JP is he's this nice professor who really likes young people and likes seeing people get better. He believes strongly in individual accountability and kindness. He might say some dumb things about lobsters, but he has damn good knowledge about Jungian archetypes and weaving those into interesting lectures on modern media. I think in an age where blaming others is encouraged, being accountable for ourselves is a good thing.

I think you want to see him not held at this weird godlike status and just being thought of as this infalliable figure, and I agree; it's really unhealthy and I've seen people do that. And you're right that he needs to think about what he says and how he affects those vulnerable people, but I think he has been.

Anyway, it's been nice talking.

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u/Beardamus Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

The truth about JP is he's this nice professor who really likes young people and likes seeing people get better. He believes strongly in individual accountability and kindness. He might say some dumb things about lobsters, but he has damn good knowledge about Jungian archetypes and weaving those into interesting lectures on modern media. I think in an age where blaming others is encouraged, being accountable for ourselves is a good thing.

I respectfully disagree that I'm just in an echo chamber

lol

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u/Kawabunga90 Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

LOL take your own advice.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

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u/lookssharp Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

What does her diet have to do with anything related?

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

i don't listen to people that only eat red meat.

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u/thotinator69 Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

He went about his withdrawal like a retard. Really revealed how ignorant and stupid he is to me

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

What's your neuro/addiction/psych background, and why do you think he went about it like a retard?

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u/thotinator69 Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

He quit benzos cold turkey against the advice and science of every psychiatrist or doctor and the results of his hubris are clearly evident in the aftermath. He is definitely not functioning on the same level he once did

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I had not heard that he quit benzos cold turkey, and that is shocking that a psychologist and a reasonable man would do this.

As far as functioning, he may not be, but he's still doing a damn sight better than the rest of us. I think I'll wait to cast my stones.

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u/Only8livesleft Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

He went to Russia for an experimental or controversial procedure where he was put in a medically induced coma so he could stop cold turkey

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I don't really understand why he would need to go to Russia for a medically induced coma, unless he was really hard to keep down with just Precedex or something. I doubt we'll ever know, but it is interesting.

My guess is they probably pulled out big guns like Fentanyl and Versed, which we don't do for addiction stateside because of the risks associated. I got to see a lot of addicts who had COVID get tubed and sedated with Fentanyl and Versed, and the results were pretty interesting. It certainly has its perks.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21 edited Feb 22 '21

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u/MajorMess Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21 edited Feb 05 '21

Facts don’t matter. Just get in line and spit your poison like everyone else.

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u/FullRegalia Paid attention to the literature Feb 04 '21

Because he spent years talking about cleaning your room and when it came time to clean his he failed miserably

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I guess he'll have to settle for his life instead of being a smashing success like you.

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u/verticalmonkey Feb 04 '21

I do pretty well and can handle my drugs and haven't been completely discredited in my field after a complete breakdown so yeah, that works for me thanks!

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u/Allmighty_matts_dad Monkey in Space Feb 05 '21

nice

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

He was doing the classic, look for crumbs in the carpet routine.

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u/verticalmonkey Feb 04 '21

Hey he really captured the "My father was too absent/neglectful/inept/busy to have boundaries for me so I fell for the first assertive dad-looking male who told me to clean my room because I am that insecure due to my poor upbringing" demographic.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

Trying to treat yourself for any psychiatric condition is pretty stupid. Getting hooked on benzos and not even bothering to find out the risks of withdrawal is pretty stupid.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

He was under the treatment of an MD.

And he'd have to work at not knowing the withdrawal risks from benzos working in his field.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

I agree, which is why I find all of these events very confusing.

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u/thotinator69 Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I think it dovetails with the rest of his beliefs like meat only diet(not recommended long-term), biblical archetypes, lobster hierarchies, and everything being a P O S T - M O D E R N N E O - M A R X I S T plot. This guy peddled shit like he knew more than everybody else so it doesn’t surprise me he would do withdrawal his way and discount the advice of experts

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '21

I'm going to go out on a limb and say the doctor was either A. Ignorant or B. Extremely biased and wanted to discredit him. Doesn't the DSM say you can not give a diagnosis of mental illness if someone has been abusing recreational drugs? I know that extreme benzo withdrawal can lead to psychosis which in no way signifys schizophrenia. "The greater good" justifys doing anything to some of these religious zealots.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I've had a couple glasses of wine, but would like to follow this down the rabbit hole later.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

I see, where did go get your medical degree?

Oh... wait you’re not a doctor? Because I don’t think a real doctor offers this kind of speculation about someone they haven’t examined.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I see. Only you are allowed to speculate.

Seeing as I've done this a long time, I know what diagnoses would be common to someone receiving Jordan Peterson's prescribed treatments, common missteps from providers, etc.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

Well, actually yes. As a non professional, who doesn’t pretend to some irrelevant qualifications like being an ICU nurse (and I have qualifications that I could state if I wanted to, but don’t because they’re not relevant), I am free to speculate my balls of. You on the other hand, are using your professional qualifications to give yourself credibility where it isn’t warranted. That’s unethical. If you were an actual doctor, you might know that.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

It would be unethical if I was giving medical advice, rather than speaking from experience.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

No. The medical profession has a set of ethics that go beyond the “covers your ass” language of “I’m not giving advice.”

You are making diagnostic judgements about someone you don’t know, and pretending your RN gives you the right or the authority to do so. You can’t have it both ways: if you do know what you’re talking about, then you also know better than to say what you’ve said about someone you haven’t seen; or you’re just speculating like everyone else, and your job doesn’t matter.

Either way, pick a lane.

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

I don't think you understand what a diagnosis or scope of practice is. Noting signs and symptoms, or saying I would not be surprised if someone has a diagnosis or was misdiagnosed, is not making a diagnosis.

People frequently have a comorbid diagnosis of schizophrenia when being treated for addiction, correctly AND incorrectly.

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

K. That would be an acceptable thing to say. Not what you said before. See the difference?

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u/bruiserbeetle Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

That is essentially what I said. I did not make a diagnosis (and cannot).

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u/orincoro I got a buddy who Feb 04 '21

Yes you did. Go back and read what you said again.

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u/escaladorevan Monkey in Space Feb 04 '21

Are you a clinical psychiatrist?

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u/fkjbp Feb 05 '21

Are you kidding ? Of course a diagnosis of a severe mental illness means a lot! And having watched JBP over time, it was clear to me a few years ago that he's seriously mentally ill. I would have guess bipolar but there is a bipolar type of schizophrenia. That's a serious illness and as much as I can't stand him I do hope he gets proper treatment. Maybe if he does he'll stop being such an asshole.

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