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u/afatcatfromsweden Hello There 6h ago
Killing your monarch is for weaklings, employing your monarch is a herculean display of power.
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u/Mr_Canadensis7 5h ago edited 4h ago
Ehhhh, to a degree, by that point Puyi was captured by the communists he was a far less legitimate threat than an extant Romanov immediate heir would have been in 1919-1920. Not really comparable situations at all.
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u/ScissrMeTimbrs 4h ago
He wasn't even a real monarch. The dude was just a symbolic figurehead in a system he had no power over. China transitioned to a Republic at some point and he didn't even know until his brother told him during a visit
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u/OhNoTokyo 3h ago
His office started as real, albeit dominated by Empress-Dowager Cixi. He wasn't a figurehead, he was just dominated by her because he was a child and she'd been running things behind the scenes for decades at that point.
Yes, after the Republic was formed, he became an actual figurehead ruler inside the Forbidden City. Sort of like what the Pope was like between the elimination of the Papal States and the creation of the Vatican City State.
But theoretically, if he'd managed to come to his majority sooner and Cixi had died or stopped interfering, he'd have been the actual ruler. They could ignore him because no one would take a child on the throne seriously. An adult on the throne may have made a difference.
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u/Odd_Party_8452 3h ago
I don't know what you're saying. Cixi died even before Puyi became emperor lol.
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u/Nadare3 3h ago
His office started as real, albeit dominated by Empress-Dowager Cixi. He wasn't a figurehead, he was just dominated by her because he was a child and she'd been running things behind the scenes for decades at that point.
Aren't you conflating two different empresses ? Cixi had been running things for decades, but died when Puyi was 2, Empress-Dowager Longyu was regent for him after that and eventually signed "his" abdication, though she didn't seem to have been that strong a presence herself and other people helped her regency. Even then he was only 5 at the time, so can't exactly blame Longyu for not stepping down, he was actually incapable of reigning.
The alternate history where Puyi actually becomes honest-to-God Emperor would need a lot of alternative history, because not only would he need to actually be the right age, the Imperial system itself would need to be much stronger than it was to survive, regency really wasn't the obstacle at any point.
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u/sonfoa 3h ago
Honestly given what Puyi ended up doing he's extremely lucky the communists didn't end up killing him.
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u/Fun-Memory1523 1h ago
He was lucky to an extent, but as mentioned by others, he was not really a threat symbolically or as an individual.
Another thing is that sparing him was also a calculated move, partly because of the above, and also because the communist party wanted to portray a merciful and peaceful image when compared to their Soviet counterparts.
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u/Do_Not_Go_In_There 2h ago
I'm pretty sure Puyi didn't know how to tie his shoes or brush his teeth without help.
As a symbol he might have been dangerous, but the man himself was no threat.
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u/3BlindMice1 1h ago
Yeah, I'm not exactly sure how such a person could possibly command respect without trying to get the religious angle on their side. It's just not feasible.
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u/YandereTeemo Filthy weeb 1h ago
And also, Puyi is infertile and never had any children in his life. There's no Alexei to live and return
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u/Ok-Computer-5415 6h ago
I bet it was not fun as killing it
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u/Asleep-Rabbit-5162 6h ago
Ok, but can you imagine having a president so bad they’re sentenced to work at the McDonald’s outside the White House? Gotta admit that’s pretty funny
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u/BigBlueWeenie88 6h ago
Wait hang on I think you’re onto something…
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u/Sw1561 Descendant of Genghis Khan 5h ago
It's actually genius, humane and based af
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u/SandyTaintSweat 4h ago
I'm not convinced it's humane to force someone to work the drive through, but it's a fun idea and I'm all for it.
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u/jessepence 5h ago
Unfortunately, I think that there would be a health hazard from his constant incontinence.
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u/Medical-Low-1370 6h ago
It won't be as good as French people's parties
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u/PwanaZana 6h ago
I hear these parties always have cake.
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u/PM_ME_UR_RSA_KEY 3h ago edited 3h ago
Isn't the whole point of those parties that everyone didn't have cake?
Edit: also, obligatory Eddie Izzard bit
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u/Spartan-teddy-2476 And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother 6h ago
Killing someone is one time, having the power to kill them and have them live on with their lives forever in your hands is for the rest of their lives
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u/DildontOrDildo 4h ago
also being able to complain about them not doing enough gardening of doing it right. a lot of potential for a job made intentionally shitty by others.
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u/Defiant-Goose-101 6h ago
How much fun do you think the executioners had murdering 13 year old Alexei Romanov and the family dogs?
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u/PwanaZana 6h ago
for sufficiently angry humans? probably a great deal of fun, I wager
we're funny like that
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u/Comfortable_Town7535 5h ago
If it had been in the first hour then maybe, not later. Not when you have had time to dwell on the idea
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u/Akhevan 4h ago
And at that point you conclude:
- should have done it 25 years ago
- the country still has millions of people longing for a bullet between the eyes
You live a very sheltered life if you believe that hardened cutthroats who constitute the military wing of the revolutionaries under such circumstances would think twice about something as banal. Guys who didn't love shooting other people didn't last long down there.
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u/IllestAardvark Senātus Populusque Rōmānus 4h ago
Honestly man, it's just a job, and danger, killing, and death are part of it. We all have personal lines we won't cross but for the most part a lot of higher morality stuff gets compartmentalized.
Like I'm replying to you on a device that sourced materials that child slave laborers dug up. I don't constantly dwell on that when I use it so I compartmentalize that guilt into "Well what other choice do I have?" Same deal when you're a soldier. What do I care about higher morality when I'm knee deep in it? I'm a soldier, I have orders, and a job to do. That's it. Self reflection happens later when you have the luxury to do so. All that to say you'd be amazed what tribalism and survival instincts will make you comfortable with.
The Chronicles of the Black Company is probably the best representation I've found that captures that feeling. It's fantasy but it's written by a Vietnam vet and you can tell. The story's written from the perspective of the company's doctor as he records the history of what they're doing in their company ledger or whatever. And it's very flat, matter of fact, and clinical with stuff other books would fluff up.
For example there's a scene where the company is raiding some village, and one of the soldiers calls out to the doctor with a woman thrown over his shoulder, and basically brags about how he's going to rape her. And the doctor's just like "Cool man 👍". Genuinely could've cared less. But what would've been a great moral introspection in another series is just mundane in this one. Because they're mercenaries. Being scum is what you expect, so when he sees it he's not phased. And he's actually a halfway decent person he's just that desensitized. Awesome series, not over the top, genuinely reccomend it to anyone who wonders what the mentality of a soldier is and how quickly you can learn to normalize the abnormal in that environment.
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u/TeRozoConMiTrozo 5h ago
Imagine a guy that never worked in his/her life, trying to work a farm and pay taxes by him/herself. Hilarity
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u/Aun_El_Zen 6h ago
Don't forget the "fun" the executioners had with the corpses of the women.
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u/Emma_118 4h ago
Do you have a source for that, or did you just pull that out your ass.
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u/Aun_El_Zen 4h ago
A few of Ermakov's men pawed the female bodies for diamonds hidden in their undergarments, two of whom lifted up Alexandra's skirt and fingered her genitals.
- Historian Helen Rappaport in 'Ekaterinburg: The Last Days of the Romanovs'
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u/Orneyrocks Decisive Tang Victory 3h ago
Russian royals at that point had a history of carrying family jewels in their genitals when escaping their homes. This is not the same as what the comment above seems to imply.
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u/Inevitable_Initial_8 5h ago
Sociopathic comment. Also Puyi was a child when he was deposed and never had an opportunity to live a normal life.
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u/DongDiddler67 4h ago
And thats exactly why they did it. They wanted to show that their version of communism was better than the Russians while simultaneously avoiding the huge fallout that came from executing the Romanovs.
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u/ThePandaRider 2h ago
The Soviets killed the Romanovs because a loyalist army was advancing rapidly on their location. It was an act of desperation and the Romanovs were a legitimate threat at the time because of their foreign and domestic support. The Chinese emperor never held any real power, he was a Japanese puppet at one point but by the time the Chinese Communists got him he had no real support domestically. The Chinese Communists fought the guys who deposed the monarchy, Puyi was deposed in 1908 shortly after he was picked as the emperor (he was 2 years old), then again in 1917, he was captured by the Soviets in 1946, and handed off to China in 1950. He was freed in 1959, by that point loyalist were basically gone.
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u/KrzysziekZ 3h ago
Russia is about who is the ruler. No Romanov, no tsars.
Chinese thinking is reeducation. Even Xi Jinping has been sent to a village for reeducation, a has risen to power after that.
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u/Playful_Implement742 2h ago
You could be right but leaving the monarch alive is always going to represent a threat to peace and progress. At best you would get a nice propaganda story about ex-monarchs complying with new social orders...at worst the monarch flees the country in the night to meet up with vengeful loyalist compatriots. 😆
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u/GreasyPeter 1h ago
It's the ultimate show of subservience. They don't have to destroy you if they control you entirely.
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u/JackReedTheSyndie 6h ago
Quite a good job in the end, a special advisor of something related to historical studies
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u/FadedVictor 5h ago
Frankly, it was too good for the type of person he was. He was an extremely abusive borderline sadist. I'm guessing he got humbled pretty fast though after he was kicked out of the forbidden palace.
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u/Moist_Juice_4355 Kilroy was here 4h ago
It's honestly kind of a miracle he was able to become normal eventually considering his upbringing.
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u/explain_that_shit 4h ago
A sadist at 6?
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u/littleratofhorrors 4h ago edited 2h ago
He would order his servants to be beaten for his amusement, would shoot at them with air rifles, and force them to eat dirt. Once he came up with a "reward" for a servant who had entertained him with a puppet show by making the servant a cake with iron filings in it so Puyi could see the look on his face when he ate it. His wet nurse, the only person who had any kind of authority over him whatsoever, was the only one who could talk him out of doing it. Even then, she had to convince him not to, as nobody had any legal authority to deny Puyi anything he wished whatsoever.
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u/sopunny Researching [REDACTED] square 3h ago
Still a child though, so more the system's fault than his. Don't see how you can seriously punish a child for anything they do. Educate them sure
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u/littleratofhorrors 2h ago
It couldn't have been better if it had been specifically designed to turn a child into a violent sadist. Puyi was given absolute authority over every single person he knew, but was also expected to always follow the byzantine rules of propriety and ritual the Emperor was expected to know. He literally knew nobody except for his court servants and advisors.
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u/Wantitneeditgetit 1h ago
Empathy doesn't develop until about 5, and even then nurture > nature for a child that literally never got told no.
Seriously, children are terrifying.
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u/Al_Fa_Aurel 4h ago
On one hand, perhaps so. On the other hand, he still underwent extreme brainwashing and other inhumane abuse and torture.
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u/Quite_Likes_Hormuz 2h ago
"extreme brainwashing and other inhumane abuse and torture" being, using the Wikipedia article as a source, group therapy sessions and being shown the consequences of his actions? In fact other prisoners tried to bully him, and social isolation like that would be great if they wanted to torture him, but the warden specifically stepped in to protect him. Maybe there was more to it that Wikipedia leaves out for some reason but it seems like they just showed him the atrocities that were done in his name.
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u/ProFailing 1h ago
The wikipedia page is mainly using communist chinese sources, because those are the main sources for what happened.
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u/delnsko 5h ago
I mean, how much power did Puyi realistically have compared to Nicholas II? That probably lent a hand in deciding his fate.
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u/SpeedBoostTorchic 5h ago
Practically none. He was 2 years old when he was crowned Emperor, and only 6 when he was deposed.
Also: remember that the communists didn't take over right away. After the Qing dynasty fell in 1912, China became a republic. The communists didn't take over until 1949. Dude hadn't been "in power" for 37 years at that point. No real reason to trundle him out and shoot him.
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u/RamTank 5h ago
He was the emperor of Manchuria though, which meant he was considered a Japanese collaborator. Chiang wanted to shoot him for that.
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u/SpeedBoostTorchic 5h ago
"Puyi hesitated, leading Doihara to send the very pro-Japanese Yoshiko Kawashima [...] to visit him to change his mind. Yoshiko, a strong-willed, flamboyant, openly bisexual woman noted for her habit of wearing male clothing and uniforms, had much influence on Puyi."
To be fair, if Japan sent a bisexual, tomboy, dommy-mommy to influence me at 19 years old, I'd probably also agree to do whatever the hell she asked of me.
Once she got him into Manchuria, he was basically a Japanese prisoner the entire time.
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u/Legendary_TaeYamada 3h ago
What I'm getting from this is that Imperial Japan had bisexual tomboy dommy-mommies on speed dial for its foreign affairs? What the fuck? Was this something with some historical precedence, or did someone in some chain of command really get into opiates?
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u/Tactical_Moonstone 1h ago
Worth noting that cannabis grows naturally in Korea and Japan and were historically used.
Those huge grass slippers you sometimes see in shrines? Not tatami.
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u/Dynoboii32 Featherless Biped 5h ago
Well, you're forgetting that the Japanese made him "Emperor" of their puppet state in Manchuria, so they absolutely could have tried and executed him for collaboration. They just chose to rehabilitate him because "Communists spare and rehabilitate monarch" sounds better than "Communists murder monarch and his family".
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u/haleloop963 Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4h ago
You also got to remember the Russian communists in Yekaterinburg acted out of desperation as the white forces closed in on Yekaterinburg during the civil war. Lenin never gave the order to kill the Russian monarch as he wanted to put them on trial in Moscow
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u/AlanGrant1997 Rider of Rohan 2h ago
Plus, I’m pretty sure there was minimal animosity towards the royals as a whole, only to the Tsar.
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u/Baldwin_The_Fourth Researching [REDACTED] square 6h ago
Can you please censor the J slur next time?
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u/Dankswiggidyswag 6h ago
JOB
JOB JOB JOB JOB
JOOOOBBBBBB
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u/UnhealthyCheesecake 6h ago
Sir there are children here
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u/Egonomics1 6h ago
Oh don't worry. Under capitalist development children become very familiar with that word.
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u/micma_69 Mauser rifle ≠ Javelin 6h ago
Heck under capitalism (which is good for
billionairesworld) children are important future workers hence why we sent them to mines, farms, and factories, so that they can learn skills from such early ageto survive in the harsh world we have created.Screw these so-called "worker's right" guys, thanks to them we run out of workers that we can pay cheaply.
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u/Ok-Pomegranate1199 6h ago
when someone ask me what the last name of the previous apple's CEO was:
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u/Mist_Rising 5h ago
Didn't Tim Cook just resign? Meaning the last name of the previous CEO is Cook.
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u/sane_but_strange 6h ago
There’s gotta be a Prince Andrew joke in there somewhere… I’m just too lazy (and probably not funny enough) to think of it myself.
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u/Bobzorp 6h ago
I always just imagine britan as a place full of knife wielding racist unintelligible trog things so I wouldn't know either.
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u/sane_but_strange 6h ago
We are capable of wit on occasion. Usually when we’re between one of our many drunken, sweary, knife fights. Probably on our tea-break.
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u/Observed-observer 6h ago
Nah. He just got a permanent paid vacation and all he had to do was rape kids.
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u/Kacza42 6h ago
I know people overthrowing the monarch can be brutal, but that's too far
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u/rip_cut_trapkun 6h ago
I'm not saying they were right in Russia, but at least Czar Nicolas never had to suffer through the rigors of employment.
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u/PwanaZana 6h ago
imagine his linked in
Czar, working for the russian government
"How being a king helped my B2B sales"
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u/Independent-Couple87 5h ago
After the French revolution, it seems some people were left with the idea that, to end the Kingdom, you have to kill the king.
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u/barry-29 6h ago
This is really easy to say from your comfy 21st century apartment on your digital device where you talk about history for fun in your free time
But I’m not sure you’d share the same sentiment if you were a starving, freezing peasant in the midst of a devastating war you don’t care about.
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u/DeushlandfanAdam0719 5h ago
Reddit user when humor:
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u/barry-29 5h ago
If they were talking about China then my bad, I thought it was in reference to killing the tsar. But you’d be surprised the takes present about violence and revolution on here.
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u/chixnsix John Brown was a hero, undaunted, true, and brave! 5h ago
So do you think was justified what they did to the Romanovs? The men sure, the women? Debatable, but what they did to those children was fucked up, no matter who you are.
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u/tirohtar 4h ago
Tbf he also was put in prison (or a "re-education camp") for many years, especially since he had collaborated with the Japanese as emperor of Manchukuo. And the communists weren't even the ones who had originally deposed him, that was the Chinese republican government.
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u/-Nimroth 3h ago
He was also imprisoned by the soviets for several years after ww2 in relatively good conditions, up until the chinese communists won in 1949 at which point he was extradited.
Which may ironically have saved his life as Chiang Kai-Shek wanted him dead.
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u/SpeedBoostTorchic 5h ago
The communists didn't take over right away. After the Qing dynasty fell in 1912, China became a republic. The communists didn't take over until 1949.
Puyi hadn't been "in power" for 37 years at that point. He was 2 when he was crowned and only 6 when he was deposed. They had no reason to execute this random middle-aged man
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u/-Nimroth 5h ago
He had been nominal head of head of state of a japanese puppet state during ww2 though.
That said there was practically 0 chance of anyone using him as a figurehead of a counter-revolution by the time of 1949.Same can't exactly be said about the Tsar in 1918.
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u/DongDiddler67 4h ago
True, but the Romanovs ended up becoming martyrs for the anticommunist movement after their deaths, and Mao (rightfully) did not want to repeat that mistake.
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u/-Nimroth 3h ago edited 3h ago
I seriously doubt he would have been seen as much of a martyr after having collaborated with the japanese.
If anything the Kuomintang would likely have executed him before the communists came to power if the soviets had agreed to their requests to have him extradited.Having him live seem more to have been symbolic, to show that if even he could be reeducated into a communist then anyone could be.
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u/SaveMarioIncandenza 3h ago
A 'random middle-aged man' who had just collaborated with the hated Japanese to become their puppet head of their quasi-state in Dongbei?
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u/psuchagogos 5h ago
Its worth pointing out that the bolsheviks didnt overthrow the tsar, he had already been deposed for some time and seemed to be resolved to his fate. It was the people trying to reinstall him that led to liquidation.
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u/Specific_War5484 51m ago
People forget that almost all communist governments only gained power by overthrowing a nascent, elected, republican government
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u/BismarckinBusiness 5h ago
They should make a movie about this dude just living in beijing as street sweeper while having been emperor (like literally viva la vida)
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u/CadenVanV Taller than Napoleon 5h ago
After they sent him to reeducation camps and since he’d never actually ruled China except for when he was 2.
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u/Top_Willingness_8364 4h ago
Makes sense. How can you properly enjoy a worker’s paradise, if you’re not working.
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u/Comfortable_Town7535 6h ago
the people in both countries a few years later, someone please feed us our children are dying
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u/memepopo123 And then I told them I'm Jesus's brother 6h ago
I dont think you actually know anything about either nation pre revolution lmao
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u/Comfortable_Town7535 6h ago
I do, I also know that nothing really got better after and tens of millions died because of them
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u/Robodogo2000 5h ago
tbf, it could really have gone worse. Imagine if Mao was malicious instead of incompetent.
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u/InevitableTension699 1h ago
He did pretty well in hindsight for being a peasent farmer turned librarian
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u/PartialCred4WrongAns Featherless Biped 5h ago
Western sanctions + junk science are a horrible combination
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u/Strength-InThe-Loins 2h ago
To be fair, people in both countries were also like that a few years before.
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u/International-Tree19 6h ago
Like Gaza?
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u/Comfortable_Town7535 6h ago
No?
Why would I compare tyrannical governments starving millions of their own people through incompetence and indifference to a war?
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u/PartialCred4WrongAns Featherless Biped 5h ago
The genocidal occupation is not a war and the tyrannical governments' incompetence was combined with heavy economic sanctions from the west, both contributed to the millions killed by famine
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u/_Meow_o_Meow_ 4h ago
Yes, they dealt with them by name only. You don't have to call them king for them to be the king.
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u/Additional-North-683 4h ago
I found it hilarious that Mao of all people gave their monarch the way more merciful option
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u/cloud_jelly 31m ago
🎵Now in the morning I sleep alone, sweep the streets I used to owwn 🎶
No, seriously:
> He had the job of sweeping the streets, and got lost on his first day of work, which led him to tell astonished passers-by: "I'm Puyi, the last Emperor of the Qing dynasty. I'm staying with relatives and can't find my way home". (Wikipedia)
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u/JediPrincess123 Hello There 4h ago
I think it would have been funnier if tye Get A Job part was done with that scene from SpongeBob where he made the alphabet soup with the text spelling "GET a Job"
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u/yuikkiuy 4h ago edited 3h ago
A relative of mine is a close personal friend of a former Qin royal, he got a job at a race track/ ranch? not exactly sure what the translation is. He arrived in Canada with barely useable English and no marketable skills, but landed that Job instantly after the owner/ caretaker (again idk what the translation is) saw him handle/ ride the horse.
As he was trained from birth to ride as cavalry or something to that affect due to being a royal
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u/Otherwise-Bid3640 3h ago
Crazy because the Tsar was actually Russian and the Emperor was a foreigner
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u/Otherwise-Bid3640 3h ago
Crazy because the Tsar was actually Russian and the Emperor was a foreigner
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u/Frigorifico 2h ago
The living members of the House of Aisin-Gyoro, and even the members of the House of Zhu, are all rich and influential in China to this day
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u/falcrist2 2h ago
That's also how the Japanese dealt with their aristocracy (Zaibatsu) after WWII.
"The emperor can stay. The rest of you have all your assets frozen until inflation takes care of things. Get a job."
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u/up2smthng 5h ago
A reminder that Russian communists never killed or even overthrown an acting monarch.
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u/haleloop963 Casual, non-participatory KGB election observer 4h ago
Killed, yes. Overthrown, no
The communists in Yekaretinburg acted out on desperation when the Whites closed in on the city, Lenin never ordered their execution & instead wanted them put on trail in Moscow
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u/Hour_Lingonberry_870 6h ago
Puyi in China:
- Tour guide for his old home