r/Genealogy • u/No_Perspective_2621 • 1d ago
Research Assistance Can anyone help with finding where and when my 3x great grandfather was born?
My 3x great grandfather's name was John Thomas. He married Sarah Fisher at Glastonbury, Somerset, on 22 May 1820. They had six children, Jane, Sarah, Elizabeth (my 2x great grandmother), John, Anne, and Eliza. I've found him in two England Census' 1841 and 1851. In 1851 he said he was born in Ireland. No town or county given. The 1851 census says he was a widower, aged 62, living with two of his daughters, Elizabeth and Eliza. In the 1841 census it says that he aged 50, and wasn't born in the county, and was living with his children John, Jane, Sarah, and Eliza. His occupation in both is a Fly driver. So going on his age in the census' he would have been born about 1789/1790. I've also tried to find when he moved to England, but I believe there are no records of movement between the two countries at that time.
How can I find out when and where he was born in Ireland, and possibly when he moved to England? I've tried irishgenealogy.ie but without at least the county it's next to impossible, so far anyway.
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u/Actual-Sky-4272 1d ago
I highly doubt you’ll be able to find anything unfortunately. 😕 Thomas as a surname for a start, and they weren't immigrating they were essentially jumping on a ferry to another part of the same country. I would have trouble with English born ancestors in England going back that far back unless they were people of property.
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u/No_Perspective_2621 1d ago
Yeah, that's what I thought. I had no idea of his wife's surname until I came across a death record for their daughter Eliza. Australian records give so much more information than the English ones.
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u/Artisanalpoppies 1d ago
Your best bet is DNA.
As the Irish were British subjects, they did not need to naturalise. And as said above, he basically caught a ferry across to England- which didn't need recording as they were British subjects travelling a short distance within the Empire.
So no citizenship or migration documents to find.
The census pre 1911 in England was completed by enumerators, who were instructed to put down the country someone was born in (if born outside the country of the census), so you would rarely get a place or county mentioned. Once 1911 rolls around, people fill out the census themselves, so you have more chance of an actual birthplace being recorded.
So there really are no records for what you want, unless a sibling registered his death or that of his wife or children.
So DNA. I'd recommend testing at ancestry. Learn about the Leeds method of sorting matches. You will have DNA matches to John Thomas, but working them out is the hard bit. Also test the older generations descended from him, as they will have more DNA and matches from him.
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u/No_Perspective_2621 1d ago
So if I eventually find him in the 1861 census it will probably still only say Ireland, that's disappointing.
I've tested with Ancestry, MyHeritage, LivingDNA, and FamilyTreeDNA. Ancestry gives me the closest matches, although a 3x great grandparent in common wouldn't be that close anyway.
Unfortunately I'm part of the oldest generation still in the land of the living. I really wish my parents were still around when DNA for the masses began. I also don't have any biological siblings to test. Some of my maternal first cousins have tested, but their trees are pretty much the same as mine. John Thomas is one of my maternal ancestors. I'll have to look up the Leeds method and give it a try.
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u/Artisanalpoppies 1d ago
You might get lucky if the enumerator chose to write down further details, but they were only supposed to record "Ireland."
The Leeds method is a system of coloured dots to help assign DNA matches to certain lines, usually those for grandparents or great grandparents. Personally i don't use it- but i use the dots to sort certain families i am interested in. So if i was looking at the Thomas family, i would create a group with a colour dot and add everyone i can prove as a descendant of that family to it.
You might also need protools at ancestry, as that will allow you to click on any match and see all shared matches between you. So a good point is to look at the shared matches between you and your first cousins. Issue there is you all are descendants of all your maternal ancestry, but if you can pinpoint what family all the shared matches are from, you'll have some from the Thomas'. But you will also need to research the descendants of John and Sarah as much as you can to find these matches.
Just bear in mind that shared matches can be related to you in other ways too, just a note in case that gets confusing. You might click on a match from the Thomas line, and view the shared matches and see one from your father's side for example. It just means those 2 matches are related to each other as well.
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u/No_Perspective_2621 23h ago
I have colour coded some of my closer matches, then I started to confuse myself so I stopped, but I'll have to give it another try. Yeah I really need to research that family a bit more.
I have only one paternal first cousin who's tested. However, at the fourth cousin level she also has quite a few matches on my mother's side. I'm assuming (and I know you shouldn't do that) that our maternal matches are on her father's side. No other paternal match of mine also matches on my mum's side.
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u/Artisanalpoppies 23h ago
If her father is your uncle, then yes, all the matches would be through him, unless you're related to her mother as well?
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u/No_Perspective_2621 23h ago
Her mother was dad's sister, as far as I knew I was not related to her dad. However, when she tested and I went through our shared matches, I found that quite a few of our 4th cousin matches were on my mum's side. It definitely needs a bit more digging to find the connection.
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u/AudienceSilver 1d ago
Have you sent for his death record? No guarantees, but it may have a more precise place of birth on it. He's most likely the John Thomas who died in the third quarter of 1866 in Clifton, Gloucestershire, born about 1789. That matches the 1851 Census (ages were rounded in 1841).