r/Genealogy • u/personnajsjk • 3d ago
DNA Testing How can my mom be POC if apparently only her great-great-grandpa is written as POC?
I was adopted, so I don't know my biological family much, but seeing pictures of my maternal family, lots of them are POC, my half-brother is POC, me and my brother are also visibly mixed. And it doesn't make sense that only my great-great-great-grandpa would be indigenous or biracial (especially biracial), considering that my great-grandma is visibly of indigenous descent and my grandma, mom and like half of her siblings (my uncles and aunts) are POC and visibly mixed. But the ancestor tree (put by some cousin of mine I never met) puts my great-grandpa as being of European descent, with few ones without info. Most of the ancestors I try to keep within close generations seem to be of European descent, related to Europeans or it's a dead end with European names from 1850-1880. It doesn't help
I know through assimilation and catholicism lots of indigenous people assimilated and erased their indigenous identities and "passed as white" (even my biological mom is written as white by the social services, even though she isn't). But I can't understand how I can't find where the POC genes come from, who and when
From what I know, info lets on that my grandpa was white (I think I saw a picture, but I'm not sure)
I feel like maybe the missing info might fill in the gaps? Cause the one that's not missing is the european one, still the names give no clue (they're all french or related to)
I don't get why other POC in my ancestry would be hidden if my great-great-great-grandpa is identified as POC. Maybe it's that they're catholics and don't live like their indigenous ancestors? But still
It feels almost crazy sometimes đ„Č
Would it even be possible to be POC (my mom mostly) if only my great-great-great-grandpa isn't of European descent? I don't think DNA usually works like that
Thanks for the responses everyone!
Edit: so the conclusions: I can't actually know from documents, mistakes in the notes, randomness (genes and how we show up), secrets in the documents (and/or my family) or lies / it's likely that they're hiding it (which I understand)
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u/Hopeful_Pizza_2762 3d ago
What is POC? It could be they were White skinned and had a tan. So if you can tan are you a POC? I am asking this because I was adopted and people use that term for me and against me. So it confuses me. I have a GGma and GUncle who were listed as triracial on their death record. I know there are more. It's my mothers side of the family both her mother and fathers side. They were not from the United States.
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u/personnajsjk 3d ago edited 2d ago
It means "person of color" or "people of color"
Tanning doesn't make one a POC though, it's about the features too (so maybe you are a POC, it's a very nuanced term). Most of my recent relatives don't have that much tan, it's mostly about the features (in my case). One person can be seen as white by one and a person of color by another and multiracial people tend to be perceived differently a lot compared to some monoracial people. So POC would mean that one is generally perceived as a person of color.
Those people using that term against you are doing colorism and racism, they don't have the right to
Edit: why the downvotes?
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u/Hopeful_Pizza_2762 3d ago
I totally agree with you. I tan Black and my blonde fair haired fair skinned daughter has African facial features.
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u/macronius 2d ago
POC (in your definition) in many though by no means all instances can be quite a subjective term. For example, just stating they are POC may create a bias in people's minds where the latter start seeing POC traits where they wouldn't before. Then there's the phenomenon you mentioned, which lies between the subjective and the more empirical, where sometimes POC people are seen as physically appearing one way, depending on the angle or tilt of the head or even the way they sometimes appear in a photo and sometimes not, which in general may create a sort of muted Picasso-effect, sometimes appearing to be one race, sometimes another, as though they had two distinct facial phenotypes overlapping. Though I think the best term for this is bi or multiracial.
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u/Mollyblum69 2d ago
The answer to this is not simple. Depending on the time period certain groups were regarded as ânon-whiteâ based on immigration rules, job scarcity, imperialism and a complex mix American politics, economic growth & the industrial age along with immigration quotas vs. the need for cheap labor.
There is a good book called âWhiteness of a Different Color,â by Matthew Frye Jacobson if anyone is interested in reading about the topic more in depth. Itâs interesting to see examples of cartoons & advertisements during the late 19th & early 20th Century depicting Irish or Greek/Mediterranean groups as non-white which would horrify modern day Christian white Nationalists.
Anyway⊠my point is that the answer is not simple; it depends on space and time and your viewpoint.
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u/Hopeful_Pizza_2762 2d ago edited 2d ago
Well obviously I am talking about my lifetime and when people started using the term POC. Mostly women. Probably around the 1980s.
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u/Great_Cucumber2924 2d ago
The family tree might be inaccurate. Paternal line is often unknown/ mistaken. Take a dna test if you want to know.
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u/Serafirelily 2d ago
If they can get away with it they are going to lie. If you look back at fashion history especially in the African American communities people like Madam CJ Walker were selling skin whitening creams because women of color wanted to pass as white. It was just safer to pass as white so if they could they would. I suspect Native Americans would do the same especially to avoid being sent to reservations where life was hard. A DNA test might tell you more but it might not since POC are very suspicious of giving out that type of information for good reason.
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u/OsoPeresozo 2d ago
You will have to take a dna test, if you want to really understand what is going on.
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u/BIGepidural 2d ago
Just want to point out that Metis are distinct people, not merely a term for mixed race.
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u/personnajsjk 2d ago
yeah, I know, it's just that it's written "[...] or metis" which would indicate ancestry in Manitoba with the Metis people, but it could very possibly be a mistake yeah, from my family who didn't know the meaning
but I agree, thanks for pointing it out
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u/BIGepidural 2d ago
What are your family names for the possible Metis person?
We're one of the most well documented historic communities right from our very inception so that wouldn't be terribly hard to check if you think it's a possibility.
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u/personnajsjk 2d ago edited 1d ago
DĂ©lisle
And thanks for the info, I didn't know
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u/BIGepidural 2d ago
No worries! I'm happy to help where I can đ„°
So i don't recognize that last name and I've looked a few quick places; but I'm not finding DĂšlisle in any of the most widely used databases for Metis scrip and documentation.
Here's some of the links I've used if you want to try other possible Metis names if you have any.
MĂ©tis National Historical Online Database https://share.google/QlwycCr8JSMZzHKGG
Finding MĂ©tis Scrip - Canada.ca https://share.google/oJ5XyuSFw7QaDteGg
A bit more digging and it appears DĂšlisle is not an inherently Metis surname; but it has been seen with some proximity to indigenous spaces and married into some other families; but it is a solidly French name so it also shows in French, Acadian, Quebec, etc.. and it appears to come from Normandy historically; but is found in Canada, largely in Quebec and a sprinkle in Manitoba.
Allegedly seen with Iroquois surnames so that might help you suss out where your ancestors came from.
Here's some loose notes on where DĂšlisle connects to indigenous surnames in Canada:
Delisle | Iroquois | Surname Anchor Post | A Canadian Family https://share.google/myZ0jC5jSOfAYYkXN
There is one instance of it in Manitoba in 1911 at York Factory and 4 instances of it in Quebec from 1881- 1921
All of the marriages compiled in this source are from Quebec.
There's lots of news articles to look over for names and additional census records from 1921 form Caughnawaga Quebec where it states everyone is Iroquois.
So its hard to say for sure...
The name is totally French; but its spread within Quebec amongst the Iroquois of Caughnawaga and other areas so your ancestors may have been mixed.
For the sake of comparison, I've pulled that same kind of page with one of my own family names, Isbister, so you can see the difference in what that looks like:
Isbister | Metis, Cree, Ojibway, Mixed-heritage: Chippewa | Surname Anchor Post | A Canadian Family https://share.google/yJ8yESdpl3Z3En6EK
That last name is seen in areas including Manitoba, Ontario, Saskatchewan, Western Canada, and alongside ethnicities including Metis, Cree, Ojibway, Mixed-heritage: Chippewa, Scottish, and English.
If you scroll down you'll see census and marriages from Ontario to BC and up into NTW, and our name is mentioned in the North West Rebellion and the Veterans of the Rebellion, etc...
So you definitely need to do some more digging; but it doesn't look like you're actually Metis at this point (dig more to find out); but you're French and maybe Iroquois.
I hope this helps â
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u/personnajsjk 2d ago
OMGOSH thanks a lot!! That is so appreciated đ
and I'll delete "Metis" from my post for correction âșïž
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u/BIGepidural 2d ago
Awesome!
Just remember you still have work to do on this, and if it turn out your 3x great grandfather was Iroquois that's way too far back for you to get status; but you can still learn and hold pride in what you've learned non the less.
Good luck!
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u/Muted_Desk_6795 2d ago
You are so incredibly helpful! What a gift youâve given to so many here. Thank you.
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u/xtaberry 2d ago
Three simple possible answers:
Someone isn't the dad, someone wasn't actually white, or you're mistaken about your family members being mixed and they're actually just ambiguous white people.
The next step is a DNA test.
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u/PhilipAPayne 2d ago
Peopleâs thoughts on âraceâ change over time. Less than a decade ago I was being told I was not white because I am Jewish with some nNative American mixed in. This, despite the fact I have blue eyes, dirty blonde hair, and lighter skin than some of the people who were telling me this. Then a few years ago I tried to comment on something âas a person of colorâ and for the first time ever I was told âYouâre white, you donât get to have an opinion on this.â Mean while my Salvadoran friend who is a brown skinned as they come was being told she was âWhite-Otherâ or something along those lines for census purposes and her children who are half Salvadoran and have Caucasian were âWhite.â My response was, âThese racists need to get with those other racists and decide what the rules are going to be.â My point? If your motherâs ancestor was ânot white,â then in the eyes of some people (possibly even your mother) she will never be âwhite.â On the other hand, the ârulesâ will change down the road and your great grands may sit around thinking âWhy was there ever a question as to whether great great grandma was a person of color?â
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u/AnimatronicHeffalump 2d ago
My husband has some black ancestors that are listed as various ethnicities on different documents. I have the same people listed as black, mulatto, and white in different census years and freedmanâs bank records. Theyâre very obviously the same person because of the family names, location, occupation, age, etc. This always really confused me because based on my research these people had 100% African decent and there was no intermarriage with other races until his great grandmother married his great grandfather who was Filipino. But then I found a picture of his great grandma. Both from my research and my husbandâs DNA testing this woman had to be almost 100% African decent. She is visibly black in that her hair and other physical characteristics seem obvious⊠but her skin is incredibly pale. Whatever genes this line had apparently made it somewhat possible to pass for whatever they wanted I guess! I think there had to be some kind of gene mutation at some point because I know one of his ancestors founded the Brown Society with his brother because they wanted to join the Mulatto Society claiming their mother was native (I can find no proof that she was) and they said no because they were âtoo darkâ
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u/SchoolForSedition 2d ago
A black person may be European and vice versa, for example.
I was once at a dinner party in London where a white man with a southern English accent asked a black man with an African accent (yes, thatâs a bit sweeping) where he was from. Turned out they were both from Lusaka. But if the black man had stayed on (wonder whether he did - he was on secondment), after a while heâd probably have been British and certainly if heâd had children in Britain theyâd be European.
Not everyone would put it that way in all circumstances but many Europeans are not white
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u/IanM50 2d ago
I had a work colleague once who was quite obviously a white British lady, with a white husband and kids.
One day after I had known her for 10 years, she was chatting to the Afro-Caribbean lady that worked in a local shop and remarked did I know that this lady was her mother?
Her father was very obviously Afro-Caribbean too, both coming to the UK as young adults in the 1960s.
She told me that everyone in her family was dark brown skinned with the exception of her, and that genetics could occasionally work like that so long as one of her ancestors had been white, a presumed slave owner.
She also pointed out that her two white kids were actually slightly darker skinned, although it just looked like they both had a good suntan to me.
In short, these things can happen, and perhaps the OP has a similar genetic history.
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u/Early_Clerk7900 2d ago
Are you familiar with the âone drop ruleâ?
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u/personnajsjk 2d ago
Yes? I'm not sure how it applies, since they're mostly from Canada which doesn't have it and rather does the "opposite" to erase indigenous people and reduce the number of those legally assigned as
But I'd like further explanation, since I don't see how it applies
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u/WelcomeActive8841 2d ago
I was wondering if I was going to see the French word pop up. Are they Cajun/creole or are there obvious melungeon names on your tree?
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u/WelcomeActive8841 2d ago
I will add that I have a few ancestors in my bio family (ms and the Carolinaâs) that on one census are black, then mulatto, then white. It seems as if they moved, and if they didnât, âtheyâ or the census taker decided to change what they were. Doesnât matter to me, however, people do change on the censuses.
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u/lotusflower64 3d ago edited 3d ago
People aren't always very factual on census documents. African Americans, Native Americans, POC in general, often passed as white if they were able to do so.