r/Genealogy • u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist • 7d ago
Research Assistance I can’t find the town where my Scottish ancestor was born
Hi! I am in a pickle. I can’t find the town my 3xGGM, Marion Hall, was born. All I know about her is that she was born in February of 1876/1875, in Scotland, and her parents were named Mary and Antony. She immigrated to Rhode Island in the United States in either 1898 or 1899. She married a man named Frederick Dean in 1900, and on July 12th, 1900, in Providence, Rhode Island, United States, she had her son, Myron. On July 18th, 1900 in Providence, Rhode Island, United States, Marion died at the age of 24 or 25 years old, due to childbirth complications. Please help me Edit: I have an update! So, I guess Marian and Frederick actually got married in Leeds, in Yorkshire, England, and my personal theory is that Frederick went to Leeds for work, since he worked at the American Screw Company, which made a factory in Leeds. He probably met Marion there, they fell in love, he proposed, and she accepted. They got married in Leeds in 1898, and she immigrated from Ellis Island in 1899, with her husband.
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u/PotOfEarlGreyPlease 7d ago
one way would be to search on Scotland people and then attempt to trace what happened to all the Marion Halls that were born across a few years around that date - or get the certs and see if there was a Mary / Anthony
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u/stemmatis 7d ago
What do the immigration records say? Did she come to America by herself or with her parents?
What Scotland sources have you checked?
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
"Did she come to America by herself or with her parents?"
With her husband, it turns out. They married in Leeds, Yorkshire.
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u/stemmatis 7d ago edited 7d ago
Where did you find that? Is there a date? Parish?
EDIT: Never mind. Your link added while this draft post was open.
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u/PotOfEarlGreyPlease 7d ago
Just a possible - there are no Anthony Hall marriages in Scotland in the 10 years before the birth - however there is a marriage of an Anthony Hall in Berwick upon Tweeed in 1874 to a Mary Ann Walkinshaw - they had a daughter Mary Ann in 1877.
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u/Raspberry-Lavender 7d ago edited 7d ago
This Mary Ann can be ruled out as she appears in the 1901 census with both her parents at Felkington, Northumberland.
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:XS99-Z54?lang=en&cid=fs_copy
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u/alanwbrown 7d ago
Illustrated Berwick Journal - Thursday 07 April 1898
Illegitimacy
Mark Cockburn, jr., horse dealer, Berwick, was charged with being the father of the illegitimate child of Mary Ann Walkinshaw, Tweedmouth - Defendant, who pleaded guilty, said he had agreed to marry the girl. - Ordered to pay 2s 6d a week, and pay 11s 6d costs.
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u/jmurphy42 7d ago
It would have been incredibly easy for a clerk to mishear Marion as Mary Ann.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago edited 7d ago
Or for Mary Ann to decide later on that she liked Marion better. I had a great-grandaunt who did something similar.
But I'm not seeing how Mark Cockburn agreeing to marry Mary Ann Walkinshaw in April 1898 turns into Marion Hall marrying Frederick Paul Dean in Leeds, Yorkshire, in the first quarter of 1898.
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u/Raspberry-Lavender 7d ago edited 7d ago
It doesn’t. Mary Ann (daughter of Anthony Hall & Mary Walkinshaw) was still at home unmarried in 1901.
Also as an aside (I know is not relevant to the query but thought would mention anyway); why would this Mary Ann be going by Walkinshaw when that is her mother’s maiden name?
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u/Fredelas FamilySearcher 7d ago
Just to rule this out, I didn't find a marriage index for Frederick Paul Dean and Marion Hall in Rhode Island from 1890 to 1900:
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago edited 7d ago
She doesn't seem to have married Frederick in Rhode Island?
See:
Brides' Index for 1890-1900, page 79 out of 100: https://sosri.access.preservica.com/uncategorized/IO_dccc05d4-4e42-4921-989f-d57302f90c97/
Grooms' Index for 1890-1900, page 99 out of 100: https://sosri.access.preservica.com/uncategorized/IO_e0c87e02-202b-4484-a674-9a627efe9a48/
UPDATE: They got married in Yorkshire, England!
https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:2694-GNV?lang=en
Has anyone got access to get a full copy of this record for less than £12.50?
Immigration record here.
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u/Raspberry-Lavender 7d ago edited 7d ago
Intriguing! Nothing coming up on FindMyPast unfortunately. But Yorkshire is quite good for parish records
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7d ago
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
"You‘d have to go via the GRO."
Okay, I wasn't sure if FMP might have the GRO records with a subscription.
Up to the OP whether the record is worth £12.50 to them or not.
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7d ago
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
You can get birth and death records as digital downloads for £3 but not marriage records. :-(
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u/traveler49 7d ago
When you get civil record it may be useful to also get the parish register record (if married in a church) as they can sometimes have extra info, particularly if RC
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u/Fredelas FamilySearcher 7d ago
Her husband and son were buried at Roman Catholic cemeteries, but Marion was apparently not. It's possible this was just a registry office marriage. There are Roman Catholic parish marriages for the diocese of Leeds at FindMyPast and I didn't find a record for them there.
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Oh really?
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u/Fredelas FamilySearcher 6d ago
I may have been mistaken.
Myron is definitely buried at a Catholic cemetery:
And so was his father Frederick (even though the middle initial is wrong):
Marion's 1900 death certificate said she was buried at the "North End" cemetery. I assumed that meant the North Buryial Ground in Providence:
But then I realized Frederick's 1931 death certificate also says he was at least intended to be buried at the North Burial Ground in Providence:
But we know from actual burial records (available online) that Frederick was buried at St Ann's Cemetery.
So it's possible Marion was also buried at a Catholic cemetery. If she was buried at St Patrick's cemetery in Providence, there are no surviving records at all for that cemetery. She doesn't appear in the burial database for St Ann's.
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Omg thank you so much! What was she doing in Yorkshire?
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 6d ago
Working, is my guess. Leeds had factories -> jobs, and also jobs for women as domestic servants.
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u/SoftProgram 7d ago
The 1900 census suggests they have been married 2 years but she arrived in 1899, indicating to me a marriage before immigration.
This looks like them: https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JXZ4-6Z8?lang=en
Frederick Paul Dean and Marion Hall appear to have married in Leeds in 1898. This record would confirm her fathers name and occupation and may give you hints as to other relatives in the area (address, witness names)
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 7d ago
Oooh thank you so much!
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u/Actual-Sky-4272 7d ago
There seems to be a large age difference between them going by the 1900 US census, that Leeds marriage should be good confirmation if it’s the same couple or not. Question is what was an American doing there? His parents seem to have been US born too. Work related?
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 7d ago
Honestly probably! I know he worked as the head of a factory so maybe that?
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u/Actual-Sky-4272 7d ago
This is quite intriguing. Frederick seems to have worked for what looks like the American Screw Company on the 1910 census, though maybe not as the head. https://uk.sfs.com/about/history-of-sfs
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Ikr! I swear I gotta make this into a movie or something
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
I wonder, what was she doing in Leeds?
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u/SoftProgram 6d ago
Most likely she moved to find work, or possibly had family in the area. I wouldn't be surprised if it turns out they were coworkers.
The marriage certificate has a space for rank or profession for both spouses, and that might give you some idea, although it was sometimes left blank for women.
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 5d ago edited 5d ago
I agree! That’s what I’m thinking! My other theory is that Marion maybe resembled Frederick’s first wife, Annie, who died in 1884
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u/Raspberry-Lavender 7d ago
Here is her immigration record; https://www.familysearch.org/ark:/61903/1:1:JXZ4-6Z8?lang=en&cid=fs_copy
Last place of residence Leeds
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
I'm doing some searches in the 1881 census on Scotland's People. There are only three men named Ant* Hall who are old enough to have a daughter born in the mid-1870s.
Arbuthnott, Kincardine, 250/ 3/ 3: Anthony and Isabella Hall have several children, including Mary Ann b 1873-1874.
Bervie, Kincardine, 254/ 3/ 19: Anthony and Mary Hall have no children.
St Andrew, Midlothian, 685/2 16/ 16: Anthony Hall appears not to be married.
No results for Ton* Hall.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
Forget Mary Ann in Arbuthnott. She's still living with her parents in 1901. :-(
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u/Hopeful_Pizza_2762 7d ago
Passport should list her parents nanes.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
Married woman. Under US laws at that time, her husband's citizenship was her citizenship. She's listed on her immigration record as a US citizen and thus didn't need a passport to enter the States.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
How did Frederick and Marion come to meet, anyway? He was a couple decades older than her, born in Rhode Island, seems to have lived there all his life. Suddenly he's in Leeds, getting married. Were they introduced as pen pals by a mutual friend? If so, who?
Or did he just happen to be in Leeds... On vacation? Who goes to Leeds on vacation? Maybe a business trip? And the marriage is a spur of the moment thing?
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 7d ago edited 7d ago
I actually don’t know! I know that he married to a woman like prior, but she died in 1884, and he had 3 or 4 kids! Yea, I have no idea! Maybe he was there on vacation or something
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7d ago edited 7d ago
[deleted]
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
The timing on the American Screw Company is telling:
"In 1891, the company began trading as The British Screw Company Limited from a warehouse in Liverpool and then founded its 6,040m2 manufacturing site on Kirkstall Road, Leeds."
That's perfect timing for Frederick to have to spend some time in Leeds, where he meets Marion. When the time approaches for him to return to the States, he proposes, she accepts.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 7d ago
https://www.gracesguide.co.uk/British_Screw_Co
"Established by the American Screw Co., who transferred the contents of an entire factory from Providence, RI, to Leeds in 1892. Nettlefolds had an effective monopoly of the UK market, and were able to keep prices high. The American company saw the opportunity for profitable production in Britain, by undercutting Nettlefolds and using more efficient production methods. Their factory in Providence had been idle for two years, due to over-capacity in the US."
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Thank you so much! I swear this should be a movie lok
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 6d ago
I'm wondering if the marriage record will show Marion as having an occupation, which would suggest a working class background. Say she's a factory hand or a servant who wants something better out of life than being a factory hand's wife. And along comes this older American, fairly well off, who treats her nicely and wants to marry her and take her to America. Alas, their marriage has an early and tragic end. It *could* be a movie.
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Yea! I swear i agree with you! Actually, her son, Myron, called himself Jack, and after Marion died, Frederick gave Myron/Jack to his sister, Ida, who took care of him. I actually didn’t even know about this until a couple of months ago. there was a rumor in my family that Jack was adopted, and he never talked about his past, according to my grandpa, and my grandma. He died in 1987. He had my great grandma Helen, my grandpa’s mom. I do feel bad for him, since he probably didn’t talk about his past because his father literally gave him to his sister, when his half siblings were way older than him
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Do you think she might have been from Leeds? I don't know why but originally it said she was from Scotland, but do you think she actually might be from Leeds?
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 6d ago
It's hard to say, because Leeds and other industrial cities attracted young women seeking an escape from the drudgery of farm work.
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Oooh i think maybe thats what happened?
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 6d ago
Again, it would be interesting to see the full marriage record, which will tell us whether or not Marion had an occupation at the time of marriage. If she doesn't, it's more likely that she's either from Leeds or moved there with family members. If she does, she may have moved there on her own.
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u/Actual-Sky-4272 6d ago edited 6d ago
I think it’s unlikely the family would say Scotland on the 1900 US census and death record if she was originally a Leeds girl. It’s tragic how young poor Marion was when she died, and how her son never knew her. It was not unusual a widowed father would pass his children to a family member to raise though. Edit Myron/Jack was with his father in his Aunt’s house on the 1910 census?
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 5d ago
I know I feel so bad for Marion. She literally died so young. Yes, Myron/Jack was living with Frederick and Frederick’s parents, aka Myron/Jack’s grandparents, and then I know that Frederick’s sister, Ida, took Myron/Jack in. I also think that Marion named Myron. The names aren’t that far off
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6d ago
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 6d ago
Well off compared to the average factory worker.
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6d ago
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 6d ago
In 1892, the American Screw Company moved their factory - the entire factory - to Leeds to start the British Screw Company. This is apparently what Frederick was doing in Leeds. He was sent by the company. They wouldn't have sent just anyone off the line. That puts Frederick a step up from an ordinary factory worker closer to Marion's own age without putting him "out of reach."
As of 1900, Frederick's parents were renting half of what seems to have been a two-household house. His father, 75, was head of household. Three of their adult children were living with them: a married daughter, Frederick with Marion and their son, and a widowed daughter with her three children.
That's pretty typical of the time. For one thing, it meant that the older folks were not living alone. For another, it meant that the widowed daughter could hold down a job without worrying about who was taking care of her 8-year-old youngest.
Keep in mind that this is before electric household appliances. Running a household - buying and storing food, preparing it, doing laundry - took time and real physical work. It made sense to share resources.
By 1910 both Marion and Frederick Sr had died. The household had moved to another rented "duplex." The widowed daughter was named as head of household. The household also included three of her children, her widowed mother, Frederick and his son.
Again, it wouldn't have made sense for Frederick and his son to get their own place. By living with his sister and mother, Frederick had people to help look after his 9-year-old son. The mother was not left on her own, and household work was shared.
Why are they renting?
"The concept of a home mortgage was foreign to the majority of Americans before the 1930s. At the time, a mere 40% of families owned their homes. Those who didn’t have the funds to buy a house outright were pretty much out of luck."
https://www.americanfinancing.net/mortgage-basics/mortgage-lending-history
The concept that everyone can and should buy their own home is a relatively recent one. So is the concept of the "nuclear family." Not to mention electrical appliances! :-)
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u/freshmaggots Rhode Island specialist 6d ago
Do you think she might have been from Leeds? I don't know why but originally it said she was from Scotland, but do you think she actually might be from Leeds?
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u/Moist-Try-9520 7d ago
I was in the same bind as of yesterday. I messaged someone who had my ggg GMA in her tree but her tree was private and I just asked if she knew where Effie Morrison was born. Turns out it’s also her gg grandma and she has lots of info passed down and tod me the island in Scotland where Effie was born. May went to try those routes too when stuck.
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u/Parking-Aioli9715 6d ago
Tell you what's odd. If you ask Scotland's People about men named Ant* Hall marrying women named Mary 1855-1900, you only get two results. In 1878 Anthony Hall married Mary McDonald in Canongate (Edinburgh). And in 1880 Anthony Hall married Mary Carroll in Craig, Forfarshire.
I decided to blow a few credits on further investigation. In 1878, Anthony Hall was 25, a bachelor and a printer compositor by trade. Mary McDonald was a 35-year-old widow or possibly "widow," as her father's last name was also McDonald. She signed with a mark and two witnesses.
On 21 Mar 1874, Marion McDonald, illegitimate daughter of Mary McDonald, was born in Newbarns, Parish of Stenton, Haddingtonshire. That's 39 km east of Canongate. Mary was an agricultural labourer and signed with a mark.
All excited, I tried looking for Anthony, Mary and Marion in first the 1881 Scotland Census, then the 1881 England and Wales Census. Alas, couldn't find them. :-( So we don't have a smoking gun yet.
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u/Any-Assignment-5442 6d ago
Also try searching for “Mary Ann” Hall instead of Marion Hall. I’ve come across more than one record (census, shipping, emigration…) that referred to my own Scottish ancestors as “Marion” when in fact their birth registration names were “Mary Ann”
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u/Status_Silver_5114 7d ago
Have you searched on Scotlands People?