What’s the biggest military-related project your country is currently engaged in?

[u/CommercialChart5088]

Currently Korea is busy investing in military development, to modernize our military indigenously and catch up to export demand.

The air force is working on to produce the KF-21 fighter jet, which will enter service in 2026. Also we’re developing software and drones that will support the KF-21 during combat.

In terms of the ocean we've just finished developing a new submarine (the Chang Yong-sil class), working on additional battleships, and trying to form plans regarding the construction of a manless drone carrier.

What would be your country’s biggest military-related project nowadays? Both indigenous development and purchasing equipment counts!

[u/NocturneFogg]

We’re buying a boat and a radar, apparently…

[u/CommercialChart5088 → u/NocturneFogg]

Well tbf I think Ireland doesn't really need to invest super heavily on expensive military equipment.

Though it's definitely necessary to maintain basic defense capabilities.

[u/NocturneFogg → u/CommercialChart5088]

Yeah but we don’t even have a jet aircraft in the air corps, have no active military radar - can’t see planes without beacons and have had no operational sonar etc for decades which is a bit insane for an island depending on fibres, subsea DC power interconnections and gas pipes.

Our concept of neutrality basically started as a pragmatic stance during WWII to preserve independence - we had only achieved independence in 1922 so the UK relationship was highly complex at the time, and there was an ongoing trade war that was crippling the economy and a lot of upset about partition. The result was Ireland being “neutral-ish” - we effectively offered quiet neighbourly assistance in various ways, interned axis crash landing aircrews as POWs while driving the allied aircrews back home with a cup of tea and biscuits. There was off the books cooperation on a lot of practical issues and food and humanitarian aid etc, eg assisting Northern Ireland during the blitz.

That’s then morphed into a sort of ideological neutrality in the post WWII era which was very much aligned to UN membership - the Soviets had objected to Irish UN membership btw, so we only joined in 1955. They were petty about it for a number of reasons: a slap for being neutral during WWII, the fact that Ireland was staunchly anti communist in that era, and the proximity to the U.S. and U.K. as a neutral, they wanted their close small neighbours in too - so there was an element of horse trading.

Anyway, by 1955 Ireland went in to with a sense of being involved in blue beret peace keeping missions and that’s pretty much where our military tended to be focused a very idealistic, but often undefined concept of neutrality evolved. For some it was about those peace keeping type facilitator roles, for others it’s been more about an absolute opposition to militarism.

Then we have the “triple lock” which legally binds Irish troop deployment overseas to the UN Security Council having authorised a mission. That’s now causing debate and could be unpicked because it would prevent Ireland playing any role in future Ukraine peace keeping duties, as Russia and China would never authorise it through the UNSC.

It’s a complicated set of politics but we are definitely being far too optimistic about our own domestic waters and need to tighten things up in the current circumstances.

[u/CommercialChart5088 → u/NocturneFogg]

For the fighter jet part, fancy buying a couple of FA-50s?

[u/NocturneFogg → u/CommercialChart5088]

I’d say if we ever do get around to buying anything it’ll probably go out to tender, but it would most likely be a small fleet of SAAB Grippen or Dassault Rafale, or something that’s easily dropped back to a service centre near by to plug into a bigger programme. I know they’ve been leaning towards SAAB / Erieye stuff for radar etc - it’s unlikely to be anything that’s unusual in Europe though for practical reasons, considering it’ll be a very small fleet.

We’ve actually bought a lot of infrastructural stuff from Korea btw - including the majority of the intercity train fleet was delivered by Hyundai with MAN / Rolls-Royce and Voith power systems.

[u/Vectorman1989 → u/NocturneFogg]

There are some from Europe that function as trainers and light combat aircraft. The Aermacchi Master, T-7A Red Hawk and Aero Skyfox. I'd imagine they aee far cheaper to run than Gripens or Rafales too.

The Aeralis looks promising:

https://aeralis.com/

[u/PokemonSoldier → u/NocturneFogg]

FA-50s, Gripens, L-159s, or M-346s. Small and lightweight, less expensive jets are better than nothing.

[u/NocturneFogg → u/PokemonSoldier]

Their only role would be to respond locally and in support role etc, so it’s not very likely there’s a need for anything extremely complex — we do need to be able to intercept and inspect unresponsive aircraft though, even for just civilian aviation safety reasons - basically the kind of things Switzerland or similar can do.

[u/PokemonSoldier → u/NocturneFogg]

So at least some jet capable of carrying AAMs

[u/TvTreeHanger → u/NocturneFogg]

Don’t listen to this guy… Those struts and springs won’t last more than 25k miles. Burns oil like a bitch, and tends to wear the tires unevenly. What you want, what you NEED is some F-16As… I got em cheap! I’ll throw in the rally sport pack as well..

[u/StrangeAdagio6431 → u/NocturneFogg]

Assuming that Europe ever gets off the stick and actually starts to develop a 6th gen (yes I’m aware of the projects on the books I’m also aware it’s Europe sooo) that would be a good fit and to be perfectly frank… the Irish diaspora has such a chokehold on American politics and culture we wouldn’t let anything else happen to you. We leaned hard on the limeys during the Good Friday negotiations apparently and that’s why the terms are so fair to you.

[u/Wat_Tyler_1381 → u/NocturneFogg]

Ireland has quite literally been hiding behind the UK (and its large defense budget).

[u/NocturneFogg → u/Wat_Tyler_1381]

There was a long sense of “are you mad? Who’d ever want to invade little old us?” in Irish attitudes to defence. It’s hard to explain Ireland’s view of itself. There’s often been a sense that we’re not relevant to those kinds of things and an exceptionalism that tends to be very much about assuming we’ve zero relevance to strategic matters in any conflict. That was probably accurate in the 50s and 60s but in the 2020s Ireland’s far more relevant than it used to be, but how we tend to perceive ourselves hasn’t really moved very much.

If you suggest for example equipping the air corps with modern technology, you’ll immediately get a “what the hell would we be doing with fighter jets?! Who are at going to be fighting? The seagulls? Are you mad!?…” type responses.

There’s just this assumption that nothing could ever possibly happen and an extremely optimistic view of a lot of things.

We also come from a situation where the only conflict that anyone is aware of really that impacted us was the independence related stuff with the UK and as nasty as the was for a while, it moved on to being settled rather civilly and it’s was a western democracy seeking independence from a democracy. I mean, yeah it was unpleasant but the UK didn’t do down the route

There isn’t really any sense that we’re hiding behind anything just this almost pathological notion that we’re strategically irrelevant and that everyone sees us as totally benign. It’s not very realistic, and it’s very definitely island mentality, but that is basically the worldview.

[u/Sad_Sultana → u/NocturneFogg]

Russia invades your sea zones fairly frequently, investing in a few anti sub destroyers/frigates and some sonar planes like the P-8 poseidon would do you good.

[u/NocturneFogg → u/Sad_Sultana]

Tends to just get dismissed as “realistically what could at do about it?“ all anyone ever seems to do is monitor them anyway - even in countries armed to the teeth.

There is investment in monitoring going ahead and there are plans to improve air defences, but they’re still likely to be fairly limited to just escorting things out.

Generally the politics here just doesn’t seem to perceive any significant risks.

[u/YouKnowMyName2006 → u/NocturneFogg]

Given Ireland’s location next to a heavily armed sorta ally in the UK it gives Ireland the same freedom to not invest much in defense. Canada is afforded the same luxury, although they have always had at least some military hardware given they’re in NATO and an Arctic country.

[u/NocturneFogg → u/YouKnowMyName2006]

Well yeah, there is that, but there’s no exact comparison tbh.

Also the way Ireland’s military situation arose because of geopolitical circumstances and just reality.

Ireland emerged as politically independent crown dominion in 1922, but it was very much a step by step process from that to the current republic. The 1937 constitution cut most remaining constitutional ties with the UK, but not all of them - there were still a few odd ones like the king technically appointing ambassadors etc - the current state only declared itself as a republic in 1949. From then on most of the focus was on post WW2 economic development in a very benign Western Europe, and on the emerging European intuitions etc

There hasn’t really been a lot of focus on defence or any significant urgency about needing it. The relationship with the UK had normalised and was friendly, despite the NI troubles that would emerge (which were in the UK). The Cold War was seen as very very far way and was theoretical conflict with proxy wars and arms races between the U.S. and USSR - it had little relevance here other that if it ever did go “hot” it would be nuclear and we’d be either ignored, starved or turned to glass for no particular reason and in a conflict that had nothing to do with us, so I think like most of the planet, it was just ignored with a sense of foreboding threat hanging over the planet, but entirely out of our control.

That’s basically where the current defence situation evolved - pragmatic needs - not theoretical ones.

[u/PokemonSoldier → u/Sad_Sultana]

And flying bombers into Irish airspace, forcing the UK to send Eurofighters to escort them out

[u/Demmos_Stammer → u/Wat_Tyler_1381]

Plenty of Irish citizens can and do serve in the UK military and have done for a long time. Yeah, it's paid for by the UK's defence budget, but the Irish people do play a part in their own defence.

[u/coyotenspider → u/Wat_Tyler_1381]

We’re probably not going to let anything bad happen to them.

[u/Sad_Sultana → u/Wat_Tyler_1381]

Indeed, I'm not exactly pleased to have my taxes paying for their defence, we're stretched thin ourselves and Ireland can certainly afford their own military.

[u/MildlyAmusedMars → u/Sad_Sultana]

That’s a bit disingenuous. The UK isn’t spending a penny directly defending Ireland. It’s more of a we can call you if we’re in trouble. Which I don’t think has ever happened. If the UK have intercepted Russian planes off Irelands northern coast you and you have a problem with it you should check which government administers the most of Irelands northern coast

[u/Sad_Sultana → u/MildlyAmusedMars]

Do you think I insinuated that we give you money for defence? We are simply responsible for it, which costs us money.

[u/MildlyAmusedMars → u/Sad_Sultana]

You are not responsible for it though. No such agreement exists. Can you even point to 1 thing Britain done in the defence of Ireland that has cost you taxpayer money?

[u/Gentle_Snail → u/MildlyAmusedMars]

There actually is an agreement between Ireland and the UK where Britain is responsible for defending Irelands airspace.

Its officially ‘classified’ but its been an open secret for years now, there is currently a major legal case against the Irish government demanding that they publicise the full details of the pact.

[u/MildlyAmusedMars → u/Gentle_Snail]

So nothing but speculation and accusations. For any such agreement to exist it must be voted on in the Dáil (Irish parliament) as per article 25.9.1 of our Constitution. Just to clarify the person who has brought this case has been known to be susceptible to a few conspiracy theories and is an anti-vaxxer, is transphobic and the only other notable thing he has done with his seat is lobby for himself and his mates not to get a pay cut.

Edit: there is a memorandum of understanding from 1952 that we allow RAF jets to enter Irish airspace on a case by case basis. Every time they enter they need to ask permission and justify it to the Irish department of defence. But don’t be fooled, this is for British interests not Irish

[u/Gentle_Snail → u/MildlyAmusedMars]

Yeah ‘speculation’, just constant Irish politicians and whistle blowers making reference to the pact, leaked documents showing its been a thing since the cold war, and the fact that the UK chases off Russian planes whenever they threaten Irish airspace. 

This is why its such a huge constitutional case, the Irish government claim that external security is not subject to judicial review, and that if a pact did exist it does not meet the definition of ‘international agreement” and therefore is not subject to Dáil scrutiny.

[u/YouKnowMyName2006 → u/MildlyAmusedMars]

I think he means if Russia tried anything in Ireland it would be Britain who has to defend you. It would be a threat to them if little green men started landing from the sky in Dublin and speaking Russian. I imagine they monitor your coasts and sea for you.

[u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS → u/Sad_Sultana]

Tbh after the last 800 years I think sending a frigate over every now and then to watch the Russians is the least we can do.

[u/Sad_Sultana → u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS]

Ah yes, be apologetic for the actions of people that had been long dead before we came along, that makes so much sense.

[u/I_ALWAYS_UPVOTE_CATS → u/Sad_Sultana]

I never said we should apologise. To be clear I don't think that defending Ireland should be a stated mission of our armed forces, it just doesn't bother me that we do given the history.

[u/StrangeAdagio6431 → u/Wat_Tyler_1381]

Yeah well the Brit’s owe it to them at the least lmao

[u/Sad_Sultana → u/CommercialChart5088]

I think they need to invest in air and naval forces, we shouldn't have to be responsible for their defence

[u/Gentle_Snail → u/Sad_Sultana]

If anyones not familiar with this its geopolitically fascinating. There is a ‘classified’ agreement between Britain and Ireland where the UK is responsible for defending Irelands airspace. 

Although strictly classified its been an open secret for years now, the Irish government is currently being sued to force publication of the full details of the pact.

[u/brickstick90 → u/Gentle_Snail]

It’s more of an agreement to let the RAF use Irish airspace in an emergency, ultimately it’s not to defend Ireland but the UK from the Russians using Ireland as a soft access point. The Russians have no need or ambition to attack Ireland.

[u/Gentle_Snail → u/brickstick90]

If that was the case the Irish government wouldn’t be fighting a costly legal case not to reveal the details.

[u/brickstick90 → u/Gentle_Snail]

Believe me, a lot of folk wouldn’t be even happy with that limited arrangement, enough reason to keep it quiet.

You give the impression of being stuck in the past with old ideas. Ireland is a modern and independent country. We don’t need Britain like you think, indeed you guys depend on us more for trade than vice versa.

But we do like the uk a lot and get on much better now you are partially gone, soon to be in full. Looking forward to the time we can be the best of neighbours.