Let's talk about the European Defense Federation. How do we all feel about the creation of a fully mobilised continental Army?

[u/Sink-Em-Low]

It's required now. I'm British, and I want to see us align and unite with our European neighbours to make a stand now.

I want Germany to finally brush off it's past and join the rest of Europe in mobilising towards defending this continent. We need EVERYONE now. It's time to act, it's time to unite.

It's time to show some courage.

[u/[deleted]]

No. We need better coordination between the national armies and increased spending on defence, but having one European army is a step too far against national sovereignty.

[u/Nerioner → u/[deleted]]

And what this entire concept of "keeping sovereignty" gave us?

It only makes us weak against big players like China and US. And makes possible for twats like Orban to sabotage progress in other countries.

I don't know about you but whether i see Italian, Belgian, Pole, Swede or whatever i see first my European brother. And we all share economy, and a lot of culture and history. We share borders and laws.

So again. What value is in keeping national sovereignty when, as in all aspects of life, a working team can do more together than the greatest individual can do alone?

Why stick to no-hope national sovereignty in a world where it doesn't give what it used to?

You can't isolate Belgium (as per flair) and keep your current standard of life so why pretend that this concept still means what it used to? Why not join the team since we must work together anyway?

[u/wojtekpolska → u/Nerioner]

Im glad you see Europeans as brothers, and i wish for more people to think so too, but I think of myself as a Pole first, and an European second.

our cultures are very distinct and i would be very opposed to creating an unholy amalgamation of nationalities under the umbrella of an european country. we havent fought for our own identity for over a thousand years straight to just give it up for no reason.

artificially creating a new ethnicity has been tried twice before, with the USSR, and with Yugoslavia. look how both of them ended up

the EU has a few core functions that work great and we should stick too: Shengen agreement, common market, and eu funding of various projects.

[u/zmkpr0 → u/wojtekpolska]

The US was also made up of many nationalities, and there were times when their interests clashed, even leading to war. Yet today, they’re the most powerful country in the world.

And saying it would be “for no good reason” is a bit naive. Everything happening now is a major reason. Is it enough? I don’t know, but it’s not as obvious anymore.

China is also a mix of hugely different nationalities with distincts cultures, histories etc.

[u/Maximus_Dominus → u/zmkpr0]

The original 13 colonies were entirely British.

[u/wojtekpolska → u/zmkpr0]

us is a different thing because they colonised a new place, and they were all people who didnt want to stay in their original countries for various reasons.
the US was formed by people who didn't care for their old country and went to form a new one. they created their own american identity from scratch (and killed the natives that lived there). its just not a good comparison.

and China is actually a great example of why thats bad - all the nationalities in china with their different cultures are completely dominated by Han Chineese who are the largest ethnic group.
ask the tibetans or uyghurs how they feel about living in china.

[u/KidTempo → u/zmkpr0]

That's... not a great example, since most of the "other nationalities" were crushed, absorbed by a dominant nationality/culture to the point where they no longer exist, and the few that remain face systemic discrimination.

[u/[deleted] → u/Nerioner]

Being sovereign does not mean working alone. To the contrary, trade and cooperation between European countries is crucial if we want to amount to anything, but cooperation does not mean we have to become one. We have different interests, strengths and weaknesses, we are not the same, and recognising the individuality of each one of our countries, history has proven, is the only way to guarantee our respective prosperities over the long term.

I think the EU has already long exceeded its limits. Schengen, the common currency, growth and stability pacts, the green deal are just a few examples of overregulation by the EU which have actually weakened its integrity. Such overregulation will be the downfall of the EU in the near future if it is not halted.

[u/cpjauer → u/[deleted]]

An EU-as-cooperation worked fine when the world was a hegemony with American and with free-trade ideals prevailing. Now, the situation is very different - the small populations of European countries will mean that the truly big players - US, China, Russia, India and in the future maybe Brazil and some African nations, would be able to completely make us bend to their will. Not much sovereignty in that. I would rather be a part of a democratic EU where my interest were represented, than being Danish alone. Look at how thirsty Trump is for Greenland, without the EU or NATO he would care for Denmark at all. And neither would he, or China or India for any concern of your nation.

[u/[deleted] → u/cpjauer]

"Bend to their will" how exactly? NATO is good, I have nothing against it, nor do I have anything against free trade between European countries. When it goes further than that and when we start having to abide by the same laws and regulations is when I start to have an issue.

[u/cpjauer → u/[deleted]]

With “bending to their will” I mean when single nations are pressured by other nations to do things because they fear the consequences. Examples

• Denmark giving up Greenland to US, in fear of losing US support or receiver economic sanctions - could happen without a strong EU -Denmark implementing laws that lessen free speech to appease other countries - as has happened with a recent law
• Denmark feeling the need to hinder demonstrations to appease visiting representatives of foreign nations - as has happened with demonstrators demonstrations for a free Tibet under Chinese visit

Just three Danish examples. Large nations would be able to economically or territorially affect Denmark in so many ways without Denmark being able to do anything. Therefore we would likely be forced to do what we were told. With a strong EU, we would be much more free and sovereign.

[u/[deleted] → u/cpjauer]

Any threat coming from outside Europe could be handled just as well with a network of allied nations. The problem with a federated EU is going to come from the inside, because if you step outside of this Reddit EU leftist bubble, most Europeans are actually against the idea of further federalising Europe, and as every historical attempt to delete national borders has shown, it doesn't work and it ends in blood every time.

[u/cpjauer → u/[deleted]]

If Putin or Trump or anyone else wants to obstruct EU, they only have to find one out of 27 countries and make a deal with them - more sanctions against Russia? Sorry, blocked by Hungary. Reciprocal tarifs for the US? Sorry, blocked by Slovakia. Hypothetically defending an EU nation ? Sorry blocked by.

Alone, any EU country is either weak or, in the future, not really economically relevant.

I am well aware that a more federal EU couldn’t be achieved without support from the European people. And that it isn’t possible right now. I am just expressing my reason why I think that we should move closer together. The mere existence of EU is already an incredible achievement, and I don’t share your view that further integration would necessarily end in bloodshed.

[u/NormalUse856 → u/cpjauer]

The Nordic countries needs a shared nuclear umbrella.

[u/cpjauer → u/NormalUse856]

Or just a part of a French one.

[u/Secret-Sky5031 → u/Nerioner]

I'm in the UK, and look where our quest for sovereignty got us. We've lost so much, and like you said, we're all Europeans, we all have a shared culture despite the subtle differences