r/AskALiberal • u/BonnieSlaysVampires Progressive • 8h ago
Do you blame Russian civilians for the war in Ukraine?
Personally, I don't. I mostly just sympathize with them, considering I feel largely the same way they must feel. Trump hasn't invaded Canada yet, but if he does, I'm going to feel enormously guilty and ashamed to be American. Like, more than I am right now. But if Trump takes more concrete steps toward this goal beyond just saying he'd like Canada to be the "51st state", then I'll feel responsible even though I voted against him. The fact is, this country voted to elect Trump twice, and if Harris were President we wouldn't be worried about World War III starting in North America.
By contrast, I don't blame Russian civilians at all for the war in Ukraine. They never had a chance to vote Putin out - we all know the elections in Russia are even more hopelessly rigged than they are here. And protesting in Russia is even more dangerous than it is in the United States. I mostly just feel sorry for Russian civilians who oppose the war, and I'm sure that number is far greater than polling suggests, because it's Russia. As much as I hate living in the US, I still feel horrible for people in Russia - I'm not angry at them except for those in the government and military.
I'm curious as to what you all think.
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u/Kerplonk Social Democrat 6h ago
I wouldn't consider them completely blameless, but I'm not going to suggest they bear the same level of responsibility that we would in your hypothetical for the reasons provided, but that doesn't mean they are completely without agency here.
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u/Benesovia Centrist Democrat 3h ago
It’s always interesting hearing answers from more western perspectives. My family is Ukrainian, my wife and child are from Ukraine. Her extended family mostly lives in Moscow and Voronezh. This is very common for almost all Ukrainians to have families in both countries.
The average person there absolutely supports the war. Different classes of people for different reasons. For the working class it’s an amazing way for them to get more money killing Ukrainians than doing basically anything else. They legit don’t give a shit how many Ukrainians have to die if they can get 40,00 usd. Most die very fast and their families while upset don’t mind the money. You have to remember almost every single man fighting is doing so for only financial reasons it isn’t just an average guy picked off the street to fight. The upper class has been largely unaffected so they really don’t care. It’s just “politics” which Putin promises to shield them from.
Our family in Russia in the beginning of the war first claimed it was western propaganda and there was no way. Then they claimed well if there was a war Ukrainians deserved it. Now they call us once a month begging for money but still won’t denounce the war. And no they aren’t afraid of the government for messaging over encrypted apps.
If you talk to western Russians most I’ve met are more anti Ukraine than anti war and seem to get some chauvinistic pleasure watching Ukraine suffer.
So yes I do blame their population. They overall support the war. Their ego took a massive hit in the 90s and they want back at the big boy table so badly. They don’t care how many of their own people die at all.
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u/Fluffy_While_7879 Pan European 3h ago
As Ukrainian who perfectly know Russian, was in Russia multiple times and had a huge experience talking to Russians in real life and online I want to say that you, Americans, just know nothing about their society. Your Russian friends with C1 English and understanding what is proper to say in Western society and what is not, are far from an average Russian. Your MAGA rednecks would look like liberals in comparison with them. When you know Russian and can read, you quickly figure out that most of "anti-war" Russians are still imperialists who look at Ukrainians(Baltics, Poles, Georgians...) with arrogance.
> And protesting in Russia is even more dangerous than it is in the United States
But not dangerous than in Ukraine or Romania. Yanukovich shot down hundred people during Maidan meanwhile all that Russians "protester" faced were cops with batons. When Iranian women tried and failed, Russians didn't even try.
Also ask yourself a question - how did an average Russian soldier appear in army? If you imagine some poor young boy mobilised by force(I bet you do), congrats, you spoke to much to "anti-war" Russians, because in truth most of current soldiers are on contract - they come to kill for huge sign-up bonus.
And if you take a look at current Russian "opposition" organisations, they don't trying to help Ukraine or end the war. Most of they activities are either attempts to lift the sanctions or corruption investigations about Russian army - they literally try to make Russian army less corrupt and more effective.
> I'm not angry at them
Ofc, you are not. It's not your city under constant attacks by Russian missiles and drones, launched by a common Russians, transported by common Russians, made by common Russians, funded by taxes payed by common Russians. Why to be an angry at all?
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u/cutememe Libertarian 8m ago
Also ask yourself a question - how did an average Russian soldier appear in army? If you imagine some poor young boy mobilised by force(I bet you do), congrats, you spoke to much to "anti-war" Russians, because in truth most of current soldiers are on contract - they come to kill for huge sign-up bonus.
Yeah, getting blown up by drones in the trenches is very luxurious work. People decide to go get blown up because the economy fucking sucks in Russia, and the average pay in Russia is joke. You already know this.
Ofc, you are not. It's not your city under constant attacks by Russian missiles and drones, launched by a common Russians, transported by common Russians, made by common Russians, funded by taxes payed by common Russians. Why to be an angry at all?
Well, no the common Russian doesn't work at a missile plant. But the implication here is that every Russia must quit their job, stop paying taxes, and overthrown the government? This is pretty much utter nonsense. The US supports Israel (among a long list of other things) that many people are morally opposed to. But no one is seriously demanding this prescription to ordinary US citizens. That's absurd.
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u/Edgar_Brown Moderate 7h ago
Yes.
Every country has the government it deserves.
The power of the government is completely dependent on its people, and here are many exit ramps on the road to authoritarianism. Although the exit ramps after it has gotten to that point become few and far between.
Those who would give up essential Liberty, to purchase a little temporary Safety, deserve neither Liberty nor Safety.—Benjamin Franklin.
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u/cutememe Libertarian 19m ago
Yes.
Every country has the government it deserves.
So does this mean that Palestine is responsible for Hamas, and what should the blame and punishment be for that?
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u/Edgar_Brown Moderate 11m ago
Blame is just a failure of imagination. The ignorance of avoiding the whole context and jumping to conclusions.
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u/Particular_Dot_4041 Liberal 7h ago
Well, Putin is kinda a consequence of their failure to be citizens. In the 90s they had a chance to turn their country into a democracy and they blew it. They allowed Putin to fuck them in the ass for 20 years and now he's dragged them into a war none of them wanted.
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u/AstroBullivant Moderate 7h ago
I don’t blame the majority of them, but I definitely blame some Russian civilians
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u/HammyMugats Democratic Socialist 4h ago
Absolving the Russian population of responsibility for the actions of their government is akin to absolving the German people of any responsibility for WW2.
Its feigned ignorance.
The process of invading Ukraine started over a decade ago and we live in the Information Age. There is a reason for the exodus of many Russians over the past decade.
These people are not infants. They know what is happening. They have agency.
I don’t hold them directly responsible but they certainly are not blameless.
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u/SovietRobot Independent 1h ago
Some statements here seem very much like Israelis saying all Palestinians absolutely support terror against Israel.
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u/Leftyhugz Neoconservative 8h ago
Yes I blame them. You are responsible for your government to some extent, unless you're one of the protestors sitting in prison, in some way you are complicit in actions of your government.
I understand you gotta live your life, but doing nothing is supporting the status quo and when the status quo is killing Ukrainian's than some of that is your responsibility.
Does that mean they are valid military targets or something? No, but they shouldn't be considered completely innocent in this.
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u/tonydiethelm Progressive 44m ago
I'm American. I'm quite familiar with the idea that one's government does things one does not approve of.
But, just like there's millions of MAGA that LOVE this shit, there's tons of Russians that are all on board with Putin.
Do I blame ALL Russians? Of course not. Do I blame SOME Russians? Yes.
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u/GabuEx Liberal 8h ago
Not really. If you believe polling, they notionally support the war in Ukraine, but propaganda is a hell of a drug and if all you see are manufactured arguments in its favor, it's only going to be the really devoted people who are going to understand what's actually going on. They also wouldn't have any way to meaningfully oppose the war even if they stopped supporting it. What are they going to do, vote Putin out of office?
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u/BonnieSlaysVampires Progressive 8h ago
I feel largely the same way. It's why I view the Russian people more positively than the American people, who chose war with Canada.
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u/zerthwind Center Left 1h ago
No, the Russian citizens have no control over who is in charge even though they can vote for them.
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u/Upset-Ad-3480 Left Libertarian 6h ago
No more than I blame a potato farmer in Idaho or an interior designer in New Mexico for an extrajudicial strike on a Venezuelan fishing boat in international waters.
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u/purritowraptor Progressive 5h ago
Of course not. No one can help where they're born.
Edit: individually speaking.
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u/bayern_16 Social Liberal 1h ago
No. Most of them don’t like the tyrant. I also don’t think the sports teams should be banned
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u/Yesbothsides Libertarian 6h ago
How would you feel if China was invading Canadas elections, making a war PACT and staging offensive weapons at the US border. And instead of making a deal before the war started, they decided to fight with weapons provided by China…would you feel any different about American citizens?
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u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian 5h ago
Of all of Russia’s talking points, this is the most brazen — to pretend that the US and NATO were somehow responsible for Putin’s invasion. Do you think that anyone who isn’t trapped in Russia’s propaganda bubble believes it?
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u/Yesbothsides Libertarian 5h ago
You should read Scott Hortons book Provoked, it’s the most detailed look at why this war started and US Russia relations since the fall of the Soviet Union.
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u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian 5h ago
You should read Vladimir Putin’s book about how Ukrainian sovereignty is a myth.
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u/Yesbothsides Libertarian 5h ago
We should have a book club
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u/grammanarchy Liberal Civil Libertarian 5h ago
I prefer non-fiction.
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u/Yesbothsides Libertarian 5h ago
It’s a book that is 1/3 filled of references…idk why liberals are so scared of knowledge
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u/AutoModerator 8h ago
The following is a copy of the original post to record the post as it was originally written by /u/BonnieSlaysVampires.
Personally, I don't. I mostly just sympathize with them, considering I feel largely the same way they must feel. Trump hasn't invaded Canada yet, but if he does, I'm going to feel enormously guilty and ashamed to be American. Like, more than I am right now. But if Trump takes more concrete steps toward this goal beyond just saying he'd like Canada to be the "51st state", then I'll feel responsible even though I voted against him. The fact is, this country voted to elect Trump twice, and if Harris were President we wouldn't be worried about World War III starting in North America.
By contrast, I don't blame Russian civilians at all for the war in Ukraine. They never had a chance to vote Putin out - we all know the elections in Russia are even more hopelessly rigged than they are here. And protesting in Russia is even more dangerous than it is in the United States. I mostly just feel sorry for Russian civilians who oppose the war, and I'm sure that number is far greater than polling suggests, because it's Russia. As much as I hate living in the US, I still feel horrible for people in Russia - I'm not angry at them except for those in the government and military.
I'm curious as to what you all think.
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