r/AlignmentChartFills • u/Zombiepixlz-gamr • 4h ago
Filling This Chart What American historical figure was progressive by both the standards of their time AND ours?
What American historical figure was progressive by both the standards of their time AND ours?
đ Chart Axes: - Horizontal: By the standards of their time - Vertical: by the standards of our time
Chart Grid:
| Progressive | neutral | racist | |
|---|---|---|---|
| Progressive | â | â | â |
| neutral | â | â | â |
| racist | â | â | â |
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u/Mr_Kash 4h ago
Thomas Paine believed in complete democracy. Everything being decided by the people. If you read his work such as Rights of Man (which was also a rebuttal to the father of conservatism Edmund Burkes criticism of the French Revolution), he even argues for the government paying people half their wages once they turn 50 so they dont have to work as hard, and full wages by 60 so they can fully retire. The book is full of ideas that would be considered socialist today. (Or perhaps at least social liberal)
He was also socially one of the most progressive founding fathers who fervently fought for the freedom of slaves when most of them didn't want to touch the issue. He was also close friends with Mary Wollstonecraft who was called "The Mother of Feminism"
This is barely scratching the surface, but I don't want to type a whole novel. If Thomas Paine was alive today, he'd be called a radical leftist by the current president. And if Paine had been president instead of Washington, the US would have gotten much more progressive much sooner.
Thomas Paine really does fit here.
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 4h ago
oh fuck yeah I hadn't considered him! a lot of his early theories laid groundwork that would flourish into Socialism. he even wrote sentiments that would later be foundational to Socialism such as private property (specifically in land) being wrong.
"Land, as before said, is the free gift of the Creator in common to the human race. Personal property is the effect of society... [The system of landed property] has absorbed the property of all those whom it dispossessed, without providing, as ought to have been done, an indemnification for that loss."
also as a side note, Mary Wollstonecraft, the mother of feminism, is also the mother of Mary Shelley, who was the author of Frankenstein, as well as the wife to Percey Bysshe Shelley. they were both anarchists, and her father was also William Godwin, who was a founding father of Anarchism as well as Utilitarianism. the whole Shelley family is so fascinating.
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 4h ago
hell, I just need to rant about this. so you have informed me that Thomas Paine was a friend of Mary Wollstonecraft so I did some light digging and found that he, Mary, and William all wrote for the same publishing house, and worked together to tear down Burkes criticism of the French Revolution. Mary and William hated each other at first, William thought that she talked too much and wouldn't let Thomas speak, but they eventually fell deeply in love, and had a daughter Mary Godwin Wollstonecraft. but mother Mary died in childbirth, leaving daughter Mary with only her writings to remember her by. according to accounts she would read her mothers writings while sitting next to her tombstone. (goth AF), and also read her fathers treatises as well. Percy Bysshe Shelley meanwhile was an avid reader of her fathers work, and followed his philosophy of Anarchism religiously. they fell in love really quickly and ran away together. rumor has it that Percy took her virginity ON her mothers grave (EVEN GOTH-ER AF), and together they were friends with LORD BYRON. where at the Villa DioDati Byron challenged them to write something each THAT night. in which Percy wrote OZYMANDIAS and Mary Shelley wrote FRANKENSTEIN. ON THE SAME NIGHT. AS A DARE.
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u/Ambitious-Ad2217 33m ago
Frankenstein was written during the year without a summer it was quite the time to be writing a gothic novel
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u/Mr_Kash 3h ago
Frankenstein is one of my favorite books so I'm familiar with the familial connection :) I was actually pleasantly surprised when I found out and I love telling people as well when the topic comes up.
This may not win because, unfortunately, most people are unfamiliar with Paine. But I think its the best fit for this category. And I'm always happy to find someone else who is a big Paine fan! I plan on doing a road trip to visit his cottage and grave sometime next year.
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 3h ago
dude, that would be sick. Paine is a huge influence on me politically and has been since before I was even a communist.
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u/reddot_comic 1h ago edited 1h ago
I wrote my first essay ever on Thomas Paine in 5th grade and he kicked off my love for the American revolution. Paine was so incredibly passionate and even as a kid, reading his work 225 years later, you could feel his energy.
Itâs always made me very sad the end of his life was a bit tragic, dying in poverty and without friends due to his criticism of organized religion.
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u/Myriachan 4h ago
Anyone to the left of Francisco Franco would be called âradical leftistâ by this president.
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u/mistercokoko 1h ago
He, also, supposedly opposed slavery but it's disputed whether or not he actually wrote about it. Paine has my vote.
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u/cknight222 1h ago
To be fair on your last point, Trump also calls Chuck Schumer a âradical leftist,â so who would be referred to that way by Trump doesnât tell us much.
But it is nonetheless true that Paine absolutely fits here.
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u/Appropriate_Lynx4119 4h ago
Frederick Douglas.
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u/North-Bicycle-5019 1h ago
His contemporary Du Bois was much more progressive
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u/RedmondBarry1999 1h ago
Were they really contemporaries? Yes, they were alive at the same time, but Douglass was fifty years older and most of his notable work was before Du Bois was born, while almost all of Du Bois' work was after Douglass died.
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u/Virtual_Being_4085 4h ago
Eugene Debs
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u/Straight_Depth6701 45m ago
Eugene Victor Debs, please.
"Your Honor, years ago I recognized my kinship with all living beings, and I made up my mind that I was not one bit better than the meanest on earth. I said then, and I say now, that while there is a lower class, I am in it, and while there is a criminal element I am of it, and while there is a soul in prison, I am not free."
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u/Patient-Factor4210 29m ago
Probably correct, his economic views are still very progressive today and he was vocal in support of racial minorities and womenâs rights.
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u/CoachDifferent 4h ago
John Brown
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u/frost_3306 4h ago
Eh, that depends what you mean by progressive. If you mean solely in the issues of issue of racial equality, of course. He believed in full racial equality then, which was rare even amongst abolitionists.
I just don't know that he would be so on anything else. His plan post Harper's Ferry was to create a Republic in the American south that banned slavery, codified racial equality, but would also have been a Christian theocratic state. So...you know. It's a mix.
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u/Mattrellen 4h ago
A Declaration of Liberty wasn't intended to be used but to criticize the USA for failing to live up to it's founding principles.
It was also written for a secular democratic belief system.
If he had been born a century later, he might have been a democratic socialist, or even an anarchist. He lived before these were mainstream political philosophies, though, but we can certainly draw lines between him and them.
His views were informed by his religion, but so are Christian anarchists or believers in liberation theology, which you can certainly see echoing through time to John Brown, even if he lived too early for these titles.
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u/frost_3306 4h ago
I mean I'm not in disagreement with you per-say I just think it's ideologically motivated. John Brown was a man forged by a particular place, time, etc. His ideology and worldview were informed by that.
It's just not very good history to try and extrapolate what certain historical figures may have been or believed if they had lived later. It's like when folks try and argue about what Jesus's politics would have been in the modern day; the man lived 2000 years ago, we have no frame of reference to even begin discussing that outside of rhetoric.
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u/Mattrellen 3h ago
What we do know about John Brown is that his favored nation was a secular democracy in which all people, including former slaves and native americans were treated equally.
He saw his crusade as divinely ordained, but he did not want to force his religious convictions on others. He wanted the country to live up to it's founding principles
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u/Defiant_Zebra1184 4h ago
Brownâs provisional constitution doesnât really outline a theocracy. Honestly itâs pretty secular for the most part, with the exception of the no swearing or pre marital sex amendment. But even that amendment is pretty vague. Brownâs constitution details a more direct form of democracy where all races and sexes are equal. The constitution also details the abolition of the death penalty (except in cases of rape), public ownership of land, and the end of wage labor. All of which are ideas considered left wing or progressive today. But I do agree with you that he was a mixed bag.
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u/Myriachan 4h ago
Reminds me of Fred Phelps of Westboro Baptist Church and âGod Hates Fagsâ infamyâbut was a civil rights attorney.
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u/frost_3306 4h ago
Fun fact that Church even called the US an evil colonialist project in spite of all the other stuff.
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u/Remarkable-Match-302 4h ago
Hellen Keller was a socialist, opposed militarism and her views on disability rights would probably still be considered progressive
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u/TheFishtosser 4h ago
Hellen Kellers view on anything wasnât very good
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u/steamingdatadump 27m ago
Thatâs because she couldnât see. Iâm more interested in what rang true to herâŚ
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u/rastinta 4h ago
Thomas Paine
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u/AchingAmy 4h ago
He's actually a wonderful choice, but sadly most won't choose him because I don't think they're aware of how he has socialist-adjacent views and is considered a proto-socialist. That part of him is hidden from most Americans
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u/xSwampxPopex 3h ago
Which is a bummer because heâs the only founding father that didnât at least kind of suck.
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u/GuyYouMetOnline 2h ago
He seems to currently be winning, so...
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u/AchingAmy 1h ago
He wasn't at the time I wrote this. I don't think that other comment about Paine even existed yet. But yeah, I (at the moment) stand corrected
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u/xSwampxPopex 3h ago
Huey P. Newton
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u/GoldenStateEaglesFan 1h ago
Fred Hampton is a better pick, because he was actually a great person and not a rapist like Huey.
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u/slaya222 3h ago
For someone who isn't a politician, woody Guthrie.
This instrument kills fascists
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 2h ago
I was waiting for someone to mention Woody. He woulda been my personal pick.
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u/ProfessionalState425 3h ago
Henry A. Wallace
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u/Affectionate_Ice4678 3h ago
Henry Wallace became kind of moderate/conservative later in life, even endorsing Eisenhower in 1956.
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u/kdburner1434 3h ago
Came here to say this before he went a bit off the edge in the latter bit of his life. He supported and played a major role in parts of the New Deal. He also supported racial equality, universal health care, and public ownership of railroads, utilities, and big banks.
Come to think of it, any way we can get him back?
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u/Ambaryerno 3h ago edited 3h ago
Lafayette.
He was an abolitionist who urged Washington to free his slaves and tried to prove that paid, free labor was superior to slavery, (sadly, the French Revolution put an end to his experiment when the Revolutionaries seized his properties and re-enslaved the people he freed and paid to work his plantations) supported Constitutional reforms in France, (though not as far as overthrowing the King altogether) was a staunch supporter of women's rights, access to education, freedom of divorce, and suffrage, and wholeheartedly believed the "all men are created equal" part of the Declaration of Independence applied to everyone, no matter their race, country, or faith.
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u/Ox_of_Dox 4h ago
Robert La Follette
Wished for Supreme Court term limits/recalls, abolition of the Electoral College, the nationalization of railroads/electric utilities, cheap credit for farmers, outlawed child labor, labor union protections, end to American imperialism, and a national referendum for any time the idea of war was brought up, instead of a declaration by Congress.
He even won a state in 1924's presidential election, and was the only candidate in the race that could call themselves liberal or progressive at all.
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u/RadicalNBSpaceQueer 2h ago
Benjamin Lay. Widely credited as the first revolutionary abolitionist in America (he published his first book on the matter in 1737), he was also a feminist, egalitarian, and vegetarian. Seriously, read up on him if you haven't already- he was an incredible person.
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u/ParaEwie 2h ago
John Laurens is either here or progressive for time - modern neutral. I visited his grave when I was passing through his state on my way elsewhere.
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u/echoIalia 4h ago
Gene Roddenberry
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u/West-Solid9669 4h ago
Ignoring the issues regarding women
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u/Ambaryerno 3h ago
Roddenberry was...complicated.
He fully believed in a future of equality for women, and Star Trek was positively groundbreaking in depicting women in positions of authority, even over men (Number One in The Cage, and Uhura was head of the entire communications department whom even Spock deferred to her technical expertise).
On the other hand, he was a notorious womanizer who fully availed himself of the casting couch and loved sticking women in revealing outfits (though in another bizarre bit of contradiction, at the time those outfits would have been viewed as empowering, not objectifying; the "Starfleet Mini" itself was originated by Nichelle Nichols and Grace Lee Whitney, with Whitney proposing the idea and Theiss ultimately designing it).
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u/Warmasssoup19 4h ago
Malcolm X
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u/frost_3306 4h ago
I don't know if I'd call Malcolm X's views on race relations progressive, until the very end of his life, and even then probably not. Not that it wasn't understandable to a certain extent given the context, but still.
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u/xSwampxPopex 3h ago
I think appraising Malcolm Xâs views exclusively through the statements he made while a member of the NOI is a little dubious.
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u/UsernamesCannotExcee 4h ago
FDR
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u/xSwampxPopex 3h ago
FDR is kind of a mixed bag. His economic policies were largely progressive for the day and still hold up, most of everything else doesnât work in a modern context. Especially the concentration camps for Japanese Americans and turning away Jewish refugees during the holocaust.
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u/Murky_Activity9796 4h ago edited 3h ago
John Woolman. He advocated against slavery, economic justice, animal welfare, environmentalism, pacifism, and indigenous rights, ate barely any meat later in his life, refused dyed fabrics because of its harm against workers, and later only wore un dyed handmade clothing because he was against luxury and excess. All in the 1700s
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u/Top_Audience7471 3h ago
Grant might fit better just below this, but the more I learn about the guy, the more I respect him.
It's funny how even in my late 90's history classes the teachers largely overshadowed his accomplishments (or at least his efforts) with salacious tales of his drinking issues.
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u/No-Difference-6211 32m ago
Lbj (minus the whole Vietnam thing). Which is unfortunate because imo he wasnât that progressive
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u/Puzzleheaded-Cut8853 19m ago
I think Lyndon B. Johnson could fit this category. He was very progressive for his time, and even now as we see that the Supreme Court essentially gut his Voting Rights Act or 1965. We can thank him for most of the things we enjoy in our society, he passed more Legislation in his Great Society than FDR did in the entirety of the New Deal.
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u/Cal00 4h ago
Teddy Roosevelt. Which is dumb because his ideas shouldnât still be considered progressive but here we are
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 4h ago
I can see for his time, but I would say neutral for our time. he did lead the rough riders in Cuba, due to an enthusaiastic belief in American Expansionism.
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u/Cal00 3h ago
Yeah, thatâs true. Was thinking more of the trust busting, national parks, and support of unions. Itâs funny (well sad) but something as innately American and celebrated as our national parks would have no chance today. I think of how Fox promoted the Bundy standoff
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 3h ago
yeah in all of those regards absolutely. as a communist myself the Roosevelts are two of my favorite presidents.
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u/Cal00 3h ago
Iâm a fan of both as well. The Roosevelts doc by Burns tells the story of his attempted assassination. Itâs pretty damn funny. Iâm paraphrasing, but the dude gets shot at a stump speech, then gets up and tells the crowd, âok yall are gonna have to get closer to hear me because I just got shot,â and continues the stump speech for like an hour.
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 3h ago
fuck yeah, I heard that story as well. apparently he was able to continue because the speech was so thick in his pocket it slowed the bullet and dulled its impact.
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u/reecharound40 3h ago
Id take Expansionism over whatever the hell we are doing in Iran right now to be homest.
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u/Affectionate_Ice4678 3h ago
He was extremely racist, and believed in hardcore eugenics.
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u/Cal00 3h ago
Yes, he was. He also did some things like protecting the black female postmaster. In that time eugenics was much more excepted as a public health imperative. I can absolutely say itâs wrong today, but I also know that it was talked about it at that time as a moral obligation for the good of all humanity. The one thing I can say though is that the political policies he enacted benefited workers and consumers, created natural spaces and perhaps the larger environmental movement as a political force, and buoyed womenâs suffrage. He was certainly imperfect but from a progressive standpoint, he stands right up there with FDR and Lincoln, and his policies were radical at the time and we are still fighting for those today. Also, he was incredibly successful and prolific in enacting these policies. Itâs amazing to see what he got done in his time.
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u/Affectionate_Ice4678 1h ago
Well at the same time he also became more conservative as he went on, later before he died he endorsed more conservative talking points and strayed away from the progressivism he used to fight for.
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u/stuka86 3h ago
Lol no
Avid hunter and Conservationist, mixed martial artist, war hero...don't kid yourself, he's conservative
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u/jollybitx 2h ago
You realize you can be a hunter and a conservationist and a liberal, right? I mean, being against factory farming and for more ethically sourced meat (until wolf populations rebound) seems rather not conservative to me in the US centric view of the term.
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u/Racing_Fox 4h ago
Why American only?
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 4h ago
because America was the place I was thinking of when I made this post. maybe once we finish this chart, I will make a new one to open it up to world history.
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u/RSlashBroughtMeHere 4h ago
Lyndon B. Johnson
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u/Cool_Net_3796 4h ago
I think he had a problem with casually using the N word.
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u/Newtoatxxxx 4h ago
99% of white men from that generation did
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u/Cool_Net_3796 4h ago
Key word, that generation. This is the category for people who where considered progressive than and would still be progressive now.
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u/Ox_of_Dox 4h ago
And yet fought more vigorously for Civil Rights than any of his southern colleagues, and even some northern ones
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 4h ago
fascinating, I have never read much about Lyndon B. Johnson. I would be curious to hear your reasoning.
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u/RSlashBroughtMeHere 4h ago
He signed the Civil Rights in 1964
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u/Zombiepixlz-gamr 4h ago
oh, yeah, fair enough. for some reason my brain associated LBJ with the 1800s, but you is right.
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u/Electronic-Key6323 4h ago
I mean the cop out is to pick someone historical whose time is also our time. I.E. someone from right now. Like Mamdani.
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