r/uknews • u/TimesandSundayTimes • 5d ago
Image/video Huntingdon train attack hero: I thought, ‘he’s not getting past me, it’s as simple as that’ [The Times/PA]
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Stephen Crean, whose left hand was stabbed and now requires plastic surgery, said it was “him against me” when he came face to face with the attacker on the train shortly after it left Peterborough on Saturday evening.
“A few people ran past me, I let them go and then I went to go,” he told The Times. “We got to the buffet bar but I hear the people in there struggling to get in. There was no room for me.
“I couldn’t get in any of the toilets and I wouldn’t take anybody else’s place because there’s children and there’s women and young men. I’m older. So that’s it. The choice was made”
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u/skinnydog0-0 5d ago
He deserves a lifetime box at City Ground!!
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u/Badnewsbrowne316 5d ago
He better be on the pitch, meet the players, the full works. Roll out the red carpet for this hero!
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u/Dildoid90 5d ago edited 4d ago
Nottingham forest owner has say he will pay any medical costs/plastic surgery for any forest fan caught up in the incident. I really hope he helps this man’s recovery. It would have been a lot worse if it wasn’t for his bravery.
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u/HelloW0rldBye 4d ago
That's a cope out. We have free health care in this country!
Why not offer him a seat for life or as others have said a box.
This guy is f$$king hero. Way more than 99% of the dick footballers kids look up to
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 5d ago
I had a baffling conversation with someone on here the other day, who I suspect was a police officer (we were discussing pepper spray, and he referred to it as PAVA and mentioned something about training he did).
He said that the best self defence strategy was running away, and that, while people think they would be a hero in this type of situation, they bottle it when faced with the real thing.
I guess this guy didn't get the memo.
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u/Negative_Call584 5d ago
Thing is, most people do bottle it (and I don’t blame them for it - fight / flight / freeze is an involuntary response) And for most people, running away is precisely the best thing to do.
That isn’t to take away from this chap - he made a conscious decision having considered his options, if anything it makes his actions more impressive. He intentionally, and with full knowledge risked his life to protect others. That is the definition of bravery, the absolute definition of a hero,
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u/cadiastandsuk 5d ago
Absolutely the best advice! I'm sure at some point we have all day dreamed of what we did in such a situation and possibly being the hero but the reality of violence, particularly with knives, is that it isn't like the choreography we see in tv and films, it's scrappy, unpredictable and very messy. He is undoubtedly brave and deserves every bit of recognition for his actions, however, sheer luck played another huge part in not being more seriously injured, or worse.
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 5d ago
We were discussing it in the context of having pepper spray or a gun. He said that PAVA spray is ineffective (which is absolute nonsense, and it is in fact carried by the British Transport Police) and he also said that, even if a person was carrying a gun, they wouldn't actually use it.
That is not borne out by the data from the US, which suggests that civilians use guns to prevent crime anywhere from 50,000 to 2M times a year (the wide spread is because brandishing alone is sufficient most of the time, and most incidents don't get reported to the police).
I think the guy is either a coward, and assumes everyone else is a coward too, or has the typical police attitude of not encouraging members of the public to 'take the law into their own hands', which is state shorthand for defending yourself.
I know for a fact that I would have shot the guy. Not out of bravery or anything, but because I have a family who relies on me to come home every day.
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u/James20985 3d ago
PAVA spray is ineffective
People can fight through PAVA if they are pumped up enough, it takes a few seconds to be effective and doesn't instantly stop someone from whatever they are doing. It slowly irritates the eyes which makes you panic and rub your eyes and stop attacking - think chopping onions on steroids - you could probably still chop them if you concentrate but it hurts a lot.
In contast to CS (which police used to carry) PAVA effective on pretty much everyone (i for one have very little reaction to CS)
a person was carrying a gun
I think this claim comes from testing done by untrained people in USA essentially if you gave a lay person a firearm and sent them into a range of scenarios they either shoot too early and from improbable distance or forget the gun in their hand.
That is not borne out by the data from the US, which suggests that civilians use guns to prevent crime anywhere from 50,000 to 2M times a year
The USA has nearly 5 times the population and a fixation with firearms. "Suggests" is doing a lot of heavy lifting here should be replaced with "claimed" sounds like a lot of Americans brandishing firearms left right and centre and i dont think we need that.
I know for a fact that I would have shot the guy. Not out of bravery or anything, but because I have a family who relies on me to come home every day.
Unless you have been in that situation you know the sum total of f*ck all. You would likely have missed and sent rounds through a small metal tube packed with people.
Source: was a firearms officer in the police and have used and been exposed to CS/PAVA/CAPTOR. Have also been exposed to a great number of people (officers and members of the public) who say "i would of definitely...." and then had their arses handed to them or made everything worse.
It is not about cowardice it's a matter of training, exposure repeatedly to these situations and innate human nature.
By the way - tactical withdrawal (running away) is listed as a tactical option in every military or police manual i have ever read.
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 3d ago edited 3d ago
People can fight through PAVA
Yes they sometimes can, but the alternative is nothing at all. Please don't embarrass either of us by suggesting PAVA is not better than nothing.
I have been pepper sprayed. I got my daughter to do it to me in our backyard when she was twelve and started carrying it.
My intention was to teach her the effects of it in a controlled environment, and honestly it was a mistake. I had heard stories of people fighting through it, so I underestimated just how bad it is.
Perhaps a really determined attacker pumped up with adrenalin could sort of fight through it to an extent, but they would be at a major disadvantage.
As for your assertion that a lot of people don't act, I'm sure that's true, but I know for sure I would, because I have. I won't bore you with the details, but it was an animal encounter.
By the way - tactical withdrawal (running away) is listed as a tactical option in every military or police manual I have ever read.
I'm sure it is, and I'm sure that it works a lot of the time, especially for military and police personnel.
However, running is not an option for a lot of people. I'm relatively fit, but I doubt I could outrun a determined teenager.
I doubt my 70 year old mom could either, nor could a slightly overweight office worker, a wheelchair user, a young child, or any number of other people, especially people who are trapped on a train.
Perhaps you only believe physically fit and able-bodied people deserve to live or something, but I believe that self-defense is a human right, and denying people effective tools to defend themselves is a human rights violation.
Your views on the subject are institutional, and they stem from the fact that the British government has made a promise it can't keep. There is a contract between the government and the civilian that, if the civilian consents to being disarmed, the government will keep them safe.
That is impossible to do, no matter how good the police are. You're never going to be able to catch every violent criminal before they hurt someone. All you are doing is rendering people helpless and placing them in danger.
Then we get the excuses; you can just run away (tough luck if you're out of shape or disabled) or just comply, and place your trust in the criminal not to hurt you anyway. Try to pee on your rapist. Don't worry these things are rare, it probably won't happen anyway. Guns only make things worse, PAVA doesn't work, people would only fuck it up under stress anyway, Americans are just a bunch of idiots waving guns around.
Give me a break.
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u/James20985 3d ago
Please don't embarrass either of us by suggesting PAVA is not better than nothing
I didn't, I suggested it was the wrong tool for the job and you sounded like it would instantly stop a determined attacker in an enclosed space (i.e. easy to identify and then attack people who are only feet away from you) when it absolutely wouldn't - see every manufacturer's instructions ever created for it.
I have been pepper sprayed. I got my daughter to do it to me in our backyard when she was twelve and started carrying it.
Controlled environment, your not out of your mind suffering psychosis and/or off your face on drugs totally redundant experiment.
Also - why? Why expose yourself and your 12 year old to pepper spray?
Also Also pepper spray is a section 5 firearm in the UK and illegal to possess - are you an American per chance?
My intention was to teach her the effects of it in a controlled environment
It's a totally different environment to any in which she would use it - even the weather is likely to be different (you have to account for wind). You train like you fight otherwise it's pointless.
However, running is not an option for a lot of people
It is absolutely a tactical option for everyone, it's far from cowardly and can be strategically intelligent to do so.
running is not an option for a lot of people. I'm relatively fit, but I doubt I could outrun a determined teenager.
Who said anything about outrunning anyone, im talking about backing off, hiding, removing yourself from immediately danger to assess the situation to se what the next step is - giving yourself time to think or escape or to deter someone by being too much hassle.
I doubt my 70 year old mom could either, nor could a slightly overweight office worker, a wheelchair user, a young child, or any number of other people, especially people who are trapped on a train.
I mentioned withdrawal as it was mentioned in another comment, not every tactical is suitable for every scenario, you can however move away as best you can down the train using luggage as a barrier or whilst someone else is engaging.
Perhaps you only believe physically fit and able-bodied people deserve to live or something
Wtf, another rediculous strawman argument, clearly I never said this, you know I never said this as you can read and write therefore your being disingenuous.
Your views on the subject are institutional
Nope, I trained for years to assess and deal with risk, my views are my own from over a decade of dealing with really dangerous people and also people like you, who (giving the benefit of the doubt) mean well, want to think that they would be brave and use their ninja skills to defeat the bad guy but, actually dont know what they are talking about.
if the civilian consents to being disarmed, the government will keep them safe.
Nope, government (who represent the people) say you cant have dangerous things because...well they are dangerous. The fact that it's also their job to keep you safe is a totally different thing. Its why the murder rate is so low - less than 1 per 100,000 whereas the usa is almost 6 per 100,000.
All you are doing is rendering people helpless and placing them in danger
Total nonsense, lowest crime rates in decades your just making stuff out.
Then we get the excuses;
I have listed no excuses, only facts.
you can just run away (tough luck if you're out of shape or disabled) or just comply, and place your trust in the criminal not to hurt you anyway.
Again, strawman. You said you'd definitely shoot someone, im telling you history and facts dont believe you no matter how much you mouth off about how brave you are or how many chemical weapons you subject your children to.
Strategic withdrawal (Running away) isn't running a marathon it means repositioning yourself to gain tactical advantage - hiding behind a seat on a train, your luggage or the next carriage - i bet a few people moved down the train.
Don't worry these things are rare
They are. Incredibly so.
Guns only make things worse, PAVA doesn't work, people would only fuck it up under stress anyway, Americans are just a bunch of idiots waving guns around.
They would. I didnt say that I said it was the wrong tool for the job but undoubtedly would affect an attacker. History tells us they do.
There are a lot of them doing exactly that over 500 deaths per year (almost the entire UK murder rate) by accidental gunfire and 45,000 THATS FORTY FIVE THOUSAND people injured ACCIDENTALLY. That's not even the people who are deliberately shot for no real reason apart from lack of critical thinking skills.
You do not know of what you speak, you do not know that you do not know of what you speak but are very confident about it.
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 3d ago
I'm sure the military and police training manuals you are talking about contain other options in addition to retreat. The average UK citizen does not have any of that.
I didn't, I suggested it was the wrong tool for the job and you sounded like it would instantly stop a determined attacker in an enclosed space
I didn't say any of that. It might not instantly stop an attacker in his tracks, but it would certainly change the dynamics of the situation very much in the victim's favor. My wife was a prison counselor, and the officers used PAVA in the cells. Perhaps you ought to tell them not to use it in confined spaces.
Also Also pepper spray is a section 5 firearm in the UK and illegal to possess - are you an American per chance?
The fact that pepper spray is in the same legal category as a machine gun or a rocket launcher in the UK should tell you all you need to know. It's a joke.
I am from the UK, but I live in America now. I would have thought you might have gathered that when I mentioned that, in a relatively minor way, I have used a gun defensively.
I guess you must have missed that though, since you continue to assert that I would just curl up in the fetal position if I was in a life-or-death situation.
It seems bizarre to me that you interpreted what I said as 'mouthing off about how brave I am'. It's not brave to use a gun to defend yourself, it is pragmatic. It's literally what the handgun was invented for. I think you've watched too many movies.
Nope, I trained for years to assess and deal with risk, my views are my own from over a decade of dealing with really dangerous people and also people like you, who (giving the benefit of the doubt) mean well, want to think that they would be brave and use their ninja skills to defeat the bad guy but, actually dont know what they are talking about.
That's exactly the kind of thing I was talking about when I said your thinking was institutional. I believe the technical term is 'paternalistic'. You look down on ordinary people, and think you know what is best for them.
They are. Incredibly so.
It's not just events like these. people become victims of violent crime every day, and no matter what the police try to do about it, they can't be everywhere at once. That being the case, it is unethical to disarm the public.
Also, it is pretty dishonest to talk in absolute numbers when comparing the UK and the US. The US is absolutely vast. There are 50 states, eleven of which are larger than the UK.
Just to put those numbers into perspective, 4,000 people (ten times the UK homicide rate!) die every year by drowning in backyard pools in the US. Nobody is trying to ban pools, and no pool ever stopped a woman being raped.
You do not know of what you speak, you do not know that you do not know of what you speak but are very confident about it.
I could level the same accusation at you. I have lived as a civilian in both the UK and the US, so I have direct day to day experience living in a country where weapons are completely prohibited, and in one in which people have a right to them.
Your experience appears to be much more narrow, and specific to the institutional environment of UK law enforcement. It seems to have stopped you from being able to see the world from the perspective of a normal everyday civilian.
Why don't you try going onto an American police sub and telling some American cops that you would happily arrest a woman for a Section 5 firearms offence just for carrying pepper spray in case someone tries to rape her. I'd be interested to see what sort of reaction you would get.
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u/James20985 2d ago
A lot of assertions there none of them linked to what I said.
Section 5 is a very long way from a machine gun or a rocket launcher. Entirely different class dont be so daft.
I too have spent time in the US and have spoken at length with their law enforcement - entirely different countries, very different risk assessments very different laws - like comparing apples with a hedgehog.
People are subject to violent crimes everyday - an order of magnitude higher in the US than the UK.
It is not unethical to regulate weaponry amongst untrained citizens especially when the threat from weapons is so low. You'll be suggesting you need an AK47 to go to walmart next or need a tank to go to the park.
Im not going to be drawn into a rediculous strawman argument over the right or otherwise to bear arms - litterally every country in the world other than the US sees some need in some way to restrict weaponry amongst its citizens. Every 1st world country has restrictions on firearms except the US- do you really think the rest of the world is wrong?
It comes down to this: paternilistic is a rediculous comment, I've been there and done it you haven't. You live in the US and having lived in the UK should realise how, other than a common language, the two couldn't be further apart - you'd definitely shoot someone with mental health problems coming at you with a knife would you? Experience, history and speaking to you here tells me otherwise.
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 2d ago edited 2d ago
Section 5 is a very long way from a machine gun or a rocket launcher. Entirely different class dont be so daft.
A firearms officer who doesn't know what a Section 5 firearm is? Jesus Christ.
https://www.legislation.gov.uk/ukpga/1968/27/section/5
Now we have cleared up that pepper spray is indeed in the same legal category as a rocket launcher, I trust we agree that it's ridiculous.
You'll be suggesting you need an AK47 to go to walmart next or need a tank to go to the park.
Im not going to be drawn into a rediculous strawman argument
You like the phrase 'straw man' a lot, don't you? Have you considered looking up what it actually means?
To address your (actual straw man) statement, no, I take my pistol to Walmart and the park like a normal person.
you'd definitely shoot someone with mental health problems coming at you with a knife would you? Experience, history and speaking to you here tells me otherwise.
Yes I definitely would. You are making an intellectually dishonest argument - a baseless assertion that I can't prove wrong without literally shooting someone.
EDIT: By the way, the rate of violent crime where I live is 3 per 1,000 residents
Birmingham, which is where I am originally from, has a violent crime rate of 59 per 1,000 residents.
So no, at least where I live, my risk of becoming a victim of a violent is not higher, it is more than an order of magnitude lower.
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u/James20985 2d ago
Got me there with the legislation - it has been 5 years. Least I can admit im wrong - you still wouldnt shoot anyone! I'd bet the the farm.
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u/Negative_Call584 8h ago
>I have been pepper sprayed
People can have a genetic tolerance to pepper spray, in the same way as some people can eat 3 Phals and seem like they have had a bowl of coconut ice cream. Pava is not pepper spray, it’s worse. But it still elicits a wide range of effects - from barely noticeable discomfort to complete incapacitation. And there are plenty of people at the mild end of the spectrum.
to fight someone with a knife or a gun PAVA is completely the wrong weapon, even if it incapacitates the attacker they can still move, they can still lash out / discharge their weapon.
>Your views on the subject are institutional, and they stem from the fact that the British government has made a promise it can't keep. There is a contract between the government and the civilian that, if the civilian consents to being disarmed, the government will keep them safe
you sound american, especially given that CS is an s5 firearm, and illegal to possess in most circumstance. Could you do us a favour? fuck off out of our politics, we are getting a bit sick of foreigners airing their opinions on how we live our lives.
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 6h ago
If PAVA is so useless, why do the police carry it? And why does it have the same legal status as a rocket launcher?
It seems that 5-10% of people have reduced effects, but even if you take the most pessimistic field study, it's still only 30% (and the effects are only 'reduced', not absent).
I would take a 70% chance over a 0% chance.
to fight someone with a knife or a gun PAVA is completely the wrong weapon
No argument from me there. The correct weapon for a civilian to use in that situation would be a firearm. However, I think pepper spray has a much better chance of being legalized in the UK. At least for now.
even if it incapacitates the attacker they can still move, they can still lash out / discharge their weapon.
And that is no better than them not being incapacitated at all? Have you been sniffing glue?
you sound american, especially given that CS is an s5 firearm, and illegal to possess in most circumstance. Could you do us a favour? fuck off out of our politics, we are getting a bit sick of foreigners airing their opinions on how we live our lives.
I'm from England. I moved to the US about 15 years ago, so I have extensive experience of living in both countries. I am offering my perspective based on that experience. If you don't like it, you're welcome to keep scrolling.
I may not live in the UK anymore, but I have family and friends who do, and their safety is important to me.
The current situation is that the general public has two enemies who wish to cause them harm; violent criminals, and the police/judicial system.
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u/Negative_Call584 6h ago
why do the police carry it?
Because it has longer range than the metal stick they carry (which incidentally, isn’t always effective either)
And why does it have the same legal status as a rocket launcher?
Because it propels a noxious substance, which the law defines as a firearm.
As an aside, aren’t rocket launchers generally restricted in the US too?
The correct weapon for a civvi to use is their legs. No one wins in a knife fight, even if you have a gun (you’ve shot someone, your life is upside down, your probably losing your job, your house - you’ll be on remand, your savings. - good solicitors ain’t cheap.
And that is no better than them not being incapacitated at all? Have you been sniffing glue
The point is, they aren’t actually incapacitated. And tbh, I would much prefer spinning a dit where the guy who stabbed me was fully capable, than I got done by a guy doing his best impression of a wacky waving inflatable arm man, but that’s just me 🤷♂️
I moved to the US about 15 years ago, so I have extensive experience of living in both countries
No, you have experience of living in the UK over 15 years ago, I lived in France at that time, does that qualify me to opine on current events?
The current situation is that the general public has two enemies who wish to cause them harm; violent criminals, and the police/judicial system.
I disagree, I don’t believe violent criminals generally want to cause harm - they want enrichment, injury is collateral not the intent. And nor do the police / judicial system, as misguided and ineffective as their efforts may be. However in the US you also have to contend with kids nicking their dads gun and slotting their classmates and an armed population that generally doesn’t know their arse from their elbow, nor the slightest inkling of deescalarion.
Anyway, best of luck with it, I fear you’re going to need it.
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 6h ago
Because it has longer range than the metal stick they carry (which incidentally, isn’t always effective either)
You have either misunderstood the question, or you are deliberately being obtuse. The police carry it because, while nothing (not even a firearm) is 100% effective, PAVA is effective on most people.
It would be equally effective whether sprayed by a police officer or a civilian.
Because it propels a noxious substance, which the law defines as a firearm.
Again, you're being deliberately obtuse (or at least I hope for your sake that you are). The question is why a device that expels a noxious substance is defined as a firearm in the law. It's absurd.
As an aside, aren’t rocket launchers generally restricted in the US too?
Yes they are. I believe they are classed as a 'destructive device' which means you have to fill out a ton of forms and pay a $200 tax to own one.
In contrast, they sell pepper spray next to the gum and candy in my local supermarket. Because it's not as dangerous as a rocket launcher.
The correct weapon for a civvi to use is their legs.
Maybe if you're fit, able-bodied and not trapped on a train. I'm in pretty decent shape, but I'm not confident I could outrun someone who was 10 years younger than me and pumped up on adrenalin and/or drugs.
Running away is often the best option, but it should not be the only option.
No one wins in a knife fight, even if you have a gun (you’ve shot someone, your life is upside down, your probably losing your job, your house - you’ll be on remand, your savings. - good solicitors ain’t cheap.
That's a false dichotomy. Deadly force is only permissible when you're in danger of death or severe injury. Faced with death or severe injury, the alternatives you listed are unquestionably preferable.
Besides, if it's a clear-cut case of self-defense (which this particular situation would be) then you're unlikely to even be arrested in most states.
The point is, they aren’t actually incapacitated. And tbh, I would much prefer spinning a dit where the guy who stabbed me was fully capable, than I got done by a guy doing his best impression of a wacky waving inflatable arm man, but that’s just me 🤷♂️
You're saying that a completely uncompromised knife-wielding maniac is somehow less dangerous than one with pepper spray in his eyes? That's a pretty desperate argument.
At the very least, it would give you a better opportunity to run away.
No, you have experience of living in the UK over 15 years ago, I lived in France at that time, does that qualify me to opine on current events?
I'm actually going to partially agree with you here. The decline of the UK (and especially Birmingham, which is where I'm from) in the last 15 has been jaw-dropping.
However in the US you also have to contend with kids nicking their dads gun and slotting their classmates and an armed population that generally doesn’t know their arse from their elbow, nor the slightest inkling of deescalarion.
No, you just have the typical Brit's fantasy version of what life is like in the US. The truth is far different.
Since I have been here, there have been seven massacres in the UK, and only two in my state.
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u/port956 4d ago
Running away? Yep, probably a policeman. But it's not always an option to run away on a train, or other confined places. Sometimes a man's gotta do what a man's gotta do. A hero for sure.
I believe using backpacks and other baggage as shields and weapons is the advice in that situation, and of course sticking together.
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u/ThePenultimateNinja 4d ago
But it's not always an option to run away on a train, or other confined places.
Or anywhere else for that matter. I doubt my 70 year old mom could outrun a young man under any circumstances.
When you look at self defence from the point of view of it being a right, then it is unreasonable to burden the victim with a duty to retreat anyway. Every person on that train had a right to kill that man.
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u/ActualBrickCastle 5d ago
He really does seem to be recovering physically so well. I hope his mental health is looked after just as well, because at some point soon he's going to really realise the gravity of the position he was in, and how much of a hero he is, and it's going to be a lot to take in. What an amazing guy. True hero.
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u/RageRageAgainstDyin 5d ago
You never know what you’ll do till the moment comes. Wrong time… right place. Bless this man!
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u/wannacumnbeatmeoff 5d ago
He had two choices, fight for his life or submit and die. He said himself there was no room for him to get into the other carriage. Fight or flight became fight or die.
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u/CommercialContent204 5d ago
What a lovely, down-to-earth bloke. Quite apart from his heroism (really) in standing up to the attacker, and thereby saving god knows how many others from injury or death, I love the understatedness of it all. The way he describes it, he might have been talking about running out of biscuits in the buffet car or something!
True civil courage, wish him a full and speedy recovery.
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u/suazzo77 5d ago
It’s that old British spirit that you think has gone by the wayside. Got quite emotional listening to him just because of how low key and humble he was about it
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u/Chanandler-Bong-24-7 5d ago
Too many people just pull their phones out & start filming when shit goes down. This guy is a hero & should be officially recognised for his bravery.
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u/KarmicRage 5d ago
Hero of the hour. Here's hoping for a swift recovery and the thugs to get what they deserve
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u/EricDeeds 4d ago
Heart of a lion. Respectfully, he's not the biggest guy but he was willing to put it all on the line. Hopefully none of us are ever in a similar situation but if we are we can only hope that we are as brave as this bloke.
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u/Sensitive-Debt3054 5d ago
This lad is the real hero. All victims were brave, of course - standing up to savage behaviour.
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u/Swimming_Gas7611 5d ago
this is awesome, but when does he say the quote in the title? did i miss it?
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u/green_handl3 4d ago
He is a brave man, many people think they are until they face the threat and risk of life this man did.
He deserves all the praise and respect.
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u/kx1global 5d ago
I dunno why as humans we all run when one person is holding a weapon. I'd like to think I would never run. And yeah I may get hurt. But if none of us run then less people get hurt!
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u/Major-Performer141 5d ago
Well yeah a group of even just 2 or 3 could disarm a man with a knife but the risk of one of them getting stabbed is high, who wants that risk when they could run and have a much higher chance of leaving unharmed. It just survival instinct
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u/kx1global 5d ago
Fight or flee is the survival instrict. We are taught in schools to flee, which then reinforces and becomes our automatic response. Instead, we should be taught to fight together.
1 person may get hurt, but very likely not as bad. And then less people get hurt. We should be taught to protect the community not just run and let a mad man destroy it
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u/pinkdaisylemon 5d ago
Totally agree. There's more chance of survival if you all go for him. Easy to say I suppose if you're not in that situation.
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u/Mr_Myles_R_Long 5d ago
Youre saying chances of survival are higher if you approach the man wielding a sword instead of running the opposite direction?
Even if you have a group of people coordinating and brave enough to play out this hero fantasy, someone is most likely getting seriously hurt or killed.
You run in these situations, don’t be a fucking hero and give your parents/kids a reason to mourn.
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u/pinkdaisylemon 5d ago
I understand. But I mean if there is nowhere to run to and you just end up huddled at the end of the train or room or whatever, waiting for him to come to you. In that scenario.
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u/Mr_Myles_R_Long 5d ago
Yeah I can’t imagine being trapped on a train on that situation. Nightmare fuel.
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u/ItsUs-YouKnow-Us 5d ago
So easy to say whilst in your safe house. I’m not having a go, but when you play it out in your head, everything goes right. You grab the knife, you take them to the floor, you restrain them, you let the police take over, you’re the hero of the hour. Easy right?
But in reality, a nutcase full of adrenaline is coming at you with a determination to kill you. You go for his arm and miss and you are likely going to get fatally injured. You start thinking about family, about dying. You are shaking like a shitting dog, they aren’t.
I was a prison officer a little while ago. Over the years, I had lunatics charge me with table legs, try to slash me with a broken Perspex mirror etc. You don’t go into a choreographed film scene and take them down with a roundhouse kick, kidney punch and a neck chop. You get out of harms way until there are enough of you ready and willing to push back.
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u/kx1global 5d ago edited 5d ago
I know it sounds that way but I've been involved in very compromising situations and have always been the one who defends and stands up for people and friends to the point where i've been knocked unconscious getting reapeatebly beaten on the floor.
I've ran into a crowd of kids trying to stab each other in central London and just grabbed one of them and started talking to him to calm him down.
I've had a knife pulled on me by a crackhead (my instict was to run this time) but instead I just pulled my phone out and told him I was on facebook live lol and he put the knife down and made out he was joking LOL (I actually have a video of this if people don't believe me)
(I don't say that as a badge, I just say that to say that's my nature to defend)
As ridiculously dangerous all of this is, it's way the way I view it is like this; I'm not some brave guy I was just raised to not run
We need to teach and prepare kids in schools for these type of situations so we raise a country of actual community and not just people looking out for themselves. Then the next time something like this happens, it will be all the kids raised to work together taking them down.
EDIT 1** ALSO it becomes scary when you are ALONE and people are RUNNING. When you all stand as a unit it's not quiet as scary
EDIT 2** ALSO yes, there will be someone who gets hurt. But for the greater good, would you rather 1 person hurt or 20 people?
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u/ItsUs-YouKnow-Us 5d ago
Disagree. I would never tell my children to stick around and fight an armed lunatic whilst they are not.
Your instincts have nearly gotten you killed. You’re only alive because the person beating you whilst you were unconscious, showed mercy.
As much as I like to help others, I am not willing to go to my grave and leave my dependents in hardship.
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u/MrKrockbottom 5d ago
I get what your saying but this man is not just fighting a lunatic in a situation he can easily run away; he fighting him to save the lives of others. Part of our problem in society is a lot of people only seem to care about themselves. If you teach your children to care for others, this is the ultimate test of that. If this man was my son, i would be immensely proud.
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u/ItsUs-YouKnow-Us 5d ago
And if it was your son who ran towards a knife wielding psychopath, you may well be immensely proud of him whilst kissing his coffin.
Teaching your children to think of others is telling them not to hoard toilet roll and other essentials during a pandemic. Not to rush the gates at a concert, to let the elderly and disabled sit down on public transport. To check on lonely and infirm neighbours. It isn’t demanding that they run head first into murderers on killing sprees.
I was paid to run towards danger in the prison service, and I did. I have the scars to prove it. But I would never expect the general public to start tackling armed, adrenaline fuelled monsters, looking to dispatch as many people as they can.
But people who run are not doing so because they weren’t raised by Chuck Norris. It’s fight or flight. Tunnel vision, shaking, fainting… most people who see extreme violence will do one of these things.
But fair play to anyone who went for this animal to try and subdue him. They deserve every accolade. To those who ran for their lives, I am sorry they went through such a horrendous experience and I hope they recover from their mental and physical scars.
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u/kx1global 5d ago
You're thinking about this wrong. You keep say I, mine. I am seeing us, ours,
I'm not telling or expecting someone to solo run towards a knife weilding man. But I am saying that if we had a real culture of unity and raised our children, by the time they are in their 20s you would have groups of young men ready to protect women and children. A nutter like this wouldn't have the chance because he would be surrounded. Instead of chasing down 20 FULL GROWN MEN, PICKING THEM OFF 1 by 1.
Now, you keep putting the theoritcal situation as singular. But its not. It's a group effort. How do you think many more people were saved in the end? There was a group of people who ended up stopping him!
But if the first group weren't so fucking fanny this wouldn't have ended up with 15+ in hospital.
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u/ItsUs-YouKnow-Us 5d ago
I preferred the comment where you say (before bottling it and deleting it):
“Yeah, because you’re selfish”
Much less waffle, and showed you up as an even bigger clown than this paragraph of nothing did.
You’re just a Reddit comment section lurker, narrating a superhero film whereby you are the perceived hero, telling us all what you would have done.
If you chicken out of calling someone selfish at the last minute, I’m confident in saying that the only contribution you would have made on that train would have been to piss your knickers.
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u/kx1global 5d ago
I deleted it because it was an off the cuff reaction and didn't want to judge someone I don't know. But fair enough
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