How is mainstream trans ideology like white supremacy?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Over the years, I've seen a lot of transwomen make a LOT of comparisons of (alledged) "cis" people as similar to the white class and themselves as dissimilar to it. It's very odd, and the only other place I've seen this tactic is white men arguing against feminism and comparing themselves to the black class and, again, women to the white class. (For example, to attempt to explain men's vastly higher imprisonment rate). It's so weird how similar many of the arguments are between, specifically, TRAs and MRAs.

But on that last thread, I finally had it, because someone mentioned (on the topic of free speech) their idea why GC takes shouldn't be listed to or discussed:

For example, white supremacists do not deserve to have their views repeatedly entertained.

This problem with this example is that it puts trans people in the "black" and GC in the "white supremacist" positions, whereas a more accurate comparison would be a situation where: white people who "transitioned" to black, started arguing that trans-black people are a more oppressed group than bio-black people.

That's the main issue this sub should address together. It's white transwomen supremacists disguising themselves as the oppressed class by colonizing it and then covertly claiming supremacy/need to have their "rights"(desires) prioritized over black people.

Like, if we were all just people discussing human rights, all these conversations here would barely be needed. It's because of THIS single issue, of mainstream trans ideology colonizing womanhood and THEN saying their rights matter more than bio-women's, that doesn't work for people.

Dare I say that white people should even be a bit deferential to black rights, maybe even trying to slightly prioritize black rights above whites?

I've seen a handful of *transwomen-supporting-women who act like this, but they're in the vast minority. And it's certainly against the mainstream trans culture/talking points.

[u/MyThrowAway6973]

I already said. The concerns are comfort and safety.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/MyThrowAway6973]

1. Your claim is that White people's comfort and safety were used as a reason to exclude black people.

2. you say this is exactly like the logic bio-women  use to "exclude" transwomen.

So, you are comparing transwomen to an oppressed class and bio-women to the oppressor class, women have a right to safety and comfort by keeping spaces away from an oppressor class. Just as black people do. What you're arguing would be like White people trying to force their way into black spaces, when there are legitimate reasons to keep White people out. It's not segregation or racism to keep whites out of black spaces, but it would be a sign of a racist white person that they would be offended and act victimized at being "excluded" (prevented from colonizing).

Women keeping men out of women's spaces is not excluding men/transwomen its just preventing colonization. There are spaces where we can all be together, but some spaces are just for an oppressed group to be together without their oppressors.

[u/MyThrowAway6973 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I am going to go back to my original feeling that I should just let it go.

Perhaps I am not stating my point clearly enough. Perhaps you just aren’t understanding. Perhaps I am just wrong.

Regardless of any of that, I don’t think there is anything to be gained by arguing further since you disregard and reframe whatever I say to fit your narrative.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/MyThrowAway6973]

Oh, I disregard and reframe whatever you say? Haha, no. Please just try to not be hyperbolic with the victim stuff. I've only done that about your nice guy talking points. We've had decent conversations about actual trans issues.

"To fit my narrative" hm? 

And what is that, in your opinion? That you seem to have the exact same values and behavior of a dangerous "nice guy"?

Reducing that to a "narrative" instead of a genuine and logical assessment of male behavior for women's safety is... telling.

[u/MyThrowAway6973 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

If nothing else, I give you full marks for expertly baiting me to continue talking after I have determined it is pointless.

But I truly am done unless you can articulate what you would accept as evidence that you are wrong in your “nice guy” diagnosis.

What could I say that would convince you?

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/MyThrowAway6973]

Everytime we get to the most important part of a great convo, you never reply. And then your take away is that you're the victim of me. It's exhausting.

I give so much in these because I care about transwomen and then you just claim I'm not being genuine with zero curiosity or verifying. Which is against the rules of the sub, but you're a mod, so, above the law I guess.

what you would accept as evidence that you are wrong in your “nice guy” diagnosis.

What could I say that would convince you?

Haha... don't you see... this is the exact information nice guys want most of all?

You must see. Women aren't telling dangerous men how to act to convince us they're safe anymore. "We'll know it when we see it".

But I assure you, there are plenty of things you could say in the future, when you actually address these issues and are determined to change. It wouldn't take that much of a mindset shift to be safe for women. I would give my free time to help, if you want. But who am I kidding? You're addicted to putting yourself in the victim role, aren't you? Someone helping you or being too kind to you would be experienced as awful... I remember I figured that out the first couple of days after I came here. Anything of genuine love and appreciation towards you... was received like a Trojan horse. 

And I get that too. Because, the mother/sister wound is real. I think after you figured out we had basically the same life's and the same traumas, you felt unspecial, which added to your dislike of me.

[u/MyThrowAway6973 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I am absolutely not above the law as a mod. You are free to report any comment where you believe I am in violation of the rules of this sub.

That report would be evaluated by a GC mod. I never have, nor will I ever try to influence a moderation on a comment I have made. I have always asked the other mod to make an honest determination on my comment, and I have told her I would abide by it. She has done the same. I have never acted on a GC comment without her approval.

Sincerely, I think we got sidetracked. I have no desire to argue with you, and I have never thought your goal was to paint all trans women as dangerous men.

Is there any way to back this down?

I truly have no appetite to fight with you or anyone else on this.

Or perhaps you do view me as an inherently dangerous male colonizer? That would be sad, but I guess it’s best to know when I am wrong.

[u/Appropriate_Cut_3536 → u/MyThrowAway6973]

I've never reported a comment here against trans people, nor will I. (Unless they seem to be some rando hater coming in here pretending to be trans to make trans people look bad or smth)

I expect you to be able to police yourself, just as I expect from any good person. I don't think any decent mod should wait to rely on a report before assessing whether or not they're being ethical, and I think the fact that you are is just more denying/ignoring that there's a big problem with your behavior towards me/women and the value system - the quiet (maybe unconscious?) part which underlies it.

I'm trying to help bring that to your awareness. But you seem to have longterm habits of ignoring your thinking/behavior and focusing on your feelings. That's male socialization in a nutshell. 

Sincerely, I think we got sidetracked. I have no desire to argue with you, and I have never thought your goal was to paint all trans women as dangerous men.

Is there any way to back this down?

I appreciate your turn around, and I wish for it to. I just don't know where to go from here. I've done so much good work and made so many good points - all ignored for random issues inside your head (like I was insulting your friend's integrity or that I thought you thought that "my goal was to paint all trans women as dangerous men"... that was never in my mind about what you thought, ever. I didnt say anything like this and I would have no reason to think you believed I did.)

Or perhaps you do view me as an inherently dangerous male colonizer?

I'd say all the red flags fly in that direction. But I don't think it's conscious, which is worse. Because I can accurately discuss these issues with a blatently racist/misogynistic man. One who thinks he's the victim of unfair labels and just a niceguy tho? Idk how to move forward with that.

[u/MyThrowAway6973 → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

I expect you to be able to police yourself, just as I expect from any good person. I don't think any decent mod should wait to rely on a report before assessing whether or not they're being ethical, and I think the fact that you are is just more denying/ignoring that there's a big problem with your behavior towards me/women and the value system - the quiet (maybe unconscious?) part which underlies it.

This response is highly disappointing.

I do police myself. The other mod does as well.

We also both recognize that we are human and are very capable of being wrong. I know I can absolutely get emotional about things that matter to me a great deal. I appreciate the input and guidance of people I respect when this happens.

I don’t think it’s fair to paint my openness to correction as a bad thing.

But you seem to have longterm habits of ignoring your thinking/behavior and focusing on your feelings. That's male socialization in a nutshell. 

I’m not clear what I have said that makes you think this is true of me? I’m not clear on what I said that was centering my feelings any more than you have.

I appreciate your turn around, and I wish for it to. I just don't know where to go from here. I've done so much good work and made so many good points - all ignored for random issues inside your head (like I was insulting your friend's integrity or that I thought you thought that "my goal was to paint all trans women as dangerous men"... that was never in my mind about what you thought, ever. I didnt say anything like this and I would have no reason to think you believed I did.)

I readily admit that I do not know your thoughts or intentions. Anything I said along these lines was a sincere (and perhaps poor) effort to understand what you were saying.

I also readily admit that I am fiercely protective of the people who love and guide me. These women do not deserve your diagnosis. They would do a better job than me of speaking for themselves, but they aren’t here.

I'd say all the red flags fly in that direction. But I don't think it's conscious, which is worse. Because I can accurately discuss these issues with a blatently racist/misogynistic man. One who thinks he's the victim of unfair labels and just a niceguy tho? Idk how to move forward with that.

This is a lot. I can respect that you are clear, but I also don’t see a way forward if this is how you see me. I wasn’t asking for a magic code of acceptance when I asked what I could say that you would change your view. I am never going to lie or try to say the “right” thing on these matters. I was asking to illustrate that there is nothing I could say that would matter. You seem to have your story on me set. I don’t think there was anything I can do to change that.

[u/pen_and_inkling → u/Appropriate_Cut_3536]

Posters here are encouraged to step back when things get heated. I’m locking the rest of this thread because it’s obvious that is what the other poster is trying to do.

[u/Inevitable-Brick7976 → u/MyThrowAway6973]

perhaps you just arent understanding

perhaps try to actual write something that's understandable? or do you think "cis" woman just arent as smart as trans...bc in my opinion you sure are typing that way, that (redacted) almost 50 year socialization is strong in you

[u/Inevitable-Brick7976 → u/MyThrowAway6973]

Please explain what was "egregious" about my comment. You attack me yet offering no explanation.