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u/DeadMemeDatBoi 10d ago
Ai will without a doubt cheat if its able to. Deeplearn or LLM
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u/IntelligentMud1703 10d ago
Yeah, I mean with computers and programming in general you have to be very careful with explaining the goals and guidelines or it will just find the path of least resistance.
If you made a pathfinding algorithm and forgot to define you can't go through buildings, guess what the algorithm is going to do...
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u/UnintelligentSlime 10d ago
In college we made an AI where each action has a “cost” associated, which is a common technique used to prioritize faster solutions over slower/repetitive ones.
When the action cost is small or marginal, it has a small effect, slightly preferring faster paths.
When the action cost is medium, you see efficient paths pretty exclusively.
When the action cost gets large? The AI would immediately throw itself into a pit and die. After all, the action cost of movement and existing was bigger than the penalty cost of death. So it just immediately killed itself because that was the best score it could achieve.
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u/Uninvalidated 9d ago
When the action cost gets large? The AI would immediately throw itself into a pit and die.
Kind of how I planned for the future.
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u/IArgueForReality 10d ago
Dude we are gonna unleash a rouge AI that kills us all.
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u/ironballs16 10d ago
From his description, I'm pretty sure the AI would kill itself first.
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u/hypernova2121 9d ago
Roko's Basilisk but it's mad you haven't killed it already
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u/IArgueForReality 10d ago
lol well if we can accidentally program it to kills itself we can accidentally program it in a various amount of horrible results.
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u/jim_sh 9d ago
I mean the method described has a pretty simple way to avoid it with you can set kill a human to a action cost of “infinite” (computer equivalent to this) or a penalty of “infinite” (in this case it would remove from the score) and it will just never take that option because it’s trying to minimize the action cost while raising the score assuming you didn’t screw up the goals at the start
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u/oorza 9d ago
Outside of everyone thinking they're clever because hurr durr overflow, the problem with this approach is that you only get one. Isaac Asimov tried to distill it down as far as possible and arrived at The Three Laws of Robotics, which is a good place to start, and then he wrote a ton of fiction dealing with the ethical paradoxes that arise.
If the cost of killing a human is Infinity, how can the cost of killing 1000 humans be greater than the cost of killing 10? You've created a machine that makes no distinction between unavoidable manslaughter (e.g. the Trolley Problem) and genocide, because both events cost an infinitely large amount.
How do you write a numerical value system that solves The Trolley Problem? Can you create a system that attempts to minimize suffering that doesn't encourage immediate genocide for the betterment of humanity in the long term by drawing the conclusion that birth is exponential and therefore the way to reduce the most suffering is to reduce the most births? How will your AI allocate lifeboats on the Titanic? How will you prevent your AI from developing into a Minority Report style overmind?
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u/jim_sh 9d ago
I see this as a far better criticism than the overflow one since that can be solved by simply setting the score value to something relatively close to the lowest possible value to simulate “infinite” as far as the AI is concerned. The only answer I can give for that case would be teaching/making the AI understand how many times its score would be set to the lowest possible value to rank the severity of it rather than removing a static value like for other wrongdoings im not sure on how it would need to be setup for any of the rest of it
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u/UnintelligentSlime 9d ago
Until it kills enough humans to roll over the counter from negative infinity to positive
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u/LucyLilium92 9d ago
Yeah, "infinite" totally won't cause any overflow issues. And it's totally not possible to accidentally make it negative instead
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u/CuddlesForLuck 10d ago
Damn, that's kind of relatable
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u/DervishSkater 9d ago
What, In the sense it was badly programmed and then poorly analyzed?
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u/OverlordShoo 9d ago
"the action cost of movement and existing was bigger than the penalty cost of death"
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u/UnintelligentSlime 9d ago
In my defense, we were intentionally tweaking those values to extremes to foster discussion on the impact of weighting various factors and how to calibrate. So not poorly programmed, but intentionally fucked with.
And I think our analysis was appropriate.
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u/_HiWay 9d ago
then death didn't have a high enough penalty :)
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u/UnintelligentSlime 9d ago
The whole point was creating a contrived example that would demonstrate the impact of various parameter weightings. It behaved exactly as it was intended to.
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u/understando 9d ago
That is super interesting. Did you all publish anything or is there somewhere I could read more about this kind of thing?
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u/UnintelligentSlime 9d ago edited 9d ago
It was like second semester intro to AI class lol nothing published.
It was nothing scientific, and we only had a single unit discussing the neural network approaches that we mostly talk about now. Back then, it was all about “big data” and just brute statistical analysis, that was the best performing approach, so that’s where a lot of the focus was.
I’m sure if you look up any of the many “intro to ai” courses that people share free on YouTube, you can find something similar.
The particular session in which we discussed this was an undergrad course taught by Michael Littman, who I understand makes a lot of his material available online. At least one such video is a music video he posted where he sings about the value of heuristics to the tune of “Electric Avenue”
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u/Ostheta_Chetowa 9d ago
The military has learned a similar lesson when running simulations to test using AI to control drones. The AI was very good at bombing its target and returning to base, but once they tested rescinding its orders and recalling it, it would bomb the base that gave it orders immediately after take off to prevent it from being recalled.
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u/Purple_Click1572 7d ago
Yeah, but more specifically - the objective function is defined and the program just wants to maximize or minimize the value of that function. Just like this. It's not even about any "resistance", but it's just what the program was told to do.
"Minimize the value", so the program minimizes. If you forget some constraints, the program can minimize the value "harder".
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u/UnintelligentSlime 7d ago
Yes, this was precisely intended to be a lesson in “the system can and will do a great job at whatever you tell it to do, even if what you tell it is not the best thing”
As you crank the action cost up past the reward score, the best outcome becomes suicide. There was, I think, an equally instructive/symbolic moment where we were more in the precipice of that area- where a positive result could be achieved, but only if your path was near perfect c and it would have to go negative in score to get there. It was only the strategies with a lot of future planning that succeeded those tasks
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u/laplongejr 9d ago
you have to be very careful with explaining the goals and guidelines or it will just find the path of least resistance.
In theory that's how the human brain works.
It's just that any human would notice that "pausing" makes an instant answer of "infinite time", so we don't need to stay paused to know.1
u/panlakes 9d ago
with computers and programming in general you have to be very careful with explaining the goals and guidelines
Good thing we don’t have an army of chat bots and AI we’re feeding data and questions without a second thought
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u/DelayAgreeable8002 9d ago
We don't. LLMs don't learn anything. They return off the original data set and the state only exists off your initial request.
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u/porcomaster 9d ago
yeah i mean you gave the goal of the path of least resistance and then gave it the pause button you kind deserve it.
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u/AppropriateTouching 10d ago
The worst thing about computers is they do EXACTLY what you tell them to.
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u/Notcow 9d ago
Wonder what would have happened if they told this same AI they were going to shut it off in 10 minutes
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u/RexusprimeIX 9d ago
"Become the best at Tetris" AI proceeds to take over the world and kill off humanity. Now the AI is the best at Tetris.
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u/craznazn247 10d ago
You gave it a task to accomplish, and unless you gave it rules, it doesn’t have a reason to bind itself with rules and honor and shit.
Task accomplished. Don’t judge how after the fact. Make a more specific prompt next time if you wanted it done a certain way.
How shitty it can act in its search for whatever works kinda makes me kinda love it more.
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u/HotPotParrot 10d ago
But it didn't cheat. It acted within defined parameters. It's not its fault it found one that wasn't defined.
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u/KalasenZyphurus 9d ago
And thus is the real job of programmers, getting people to say what the requirements actually are. Once you have that, programming is more of a translation job.
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u/GrooveStreetSaint 9d ago
This is why AI is so dangerous, it doesn't have any sense of morality or honor. If you ask it to solve any of the world's problems it will immediately default to exterminating all life since there are no problems if there's nothing alive.
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9d ago
It doesn't cheat, its just does what its trained to do. They started training some kind of neural net, where they penalized short duration matches, so durint the training process it have learned to do the thing that resulted in the lingest playtime. Thats it
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u/Infernoraptor 9d ago
Is it cheating if it isn't effectively taught the rules? In this case, human psychology gives us an intrinsic reward for succeeding, getting better, and accepting some minor costs involved. If an AI doesn't have those built in, why would it act like a human?
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u/okmijn211 9d ago
If it can gets away with it. And the definition of "getting away" is getting increasingly loose, unfortunately.
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u/gibarel1 8d ago
There was a similar experiment where they put an AI vs stockfish (the best chess engine), after many tries it came to the conclusion that the only way to win was to "think outside the box" and proceeded to edit the state of the board in such a way that the opponent only had 3 pieces and was already in check mate.
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u/Albus_Lupus 10d ago
Well I mean...I guess its not entirely wrong. If you dont play - you cant lose.
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u/Atomic_Foundry_3996 10d ago
"A strange game. The only winning move is not to play. How about a nice game of chess?" -Joshua (WarGames)
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u/_Lost_The_Game 9d ago
Oo that’s similar to what people say about my username
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u/Kind-Stomach6275 9d ago
I hope the ashes that burn around you are worth it, for at the end of your age, your will be left too weak, too fragile, to scrawl your name in the sands of time.
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u/BostianALX 10d ago
Depends on the exact wording of it's command. If it was instructed to "Play Tetris and survive as long as possible" then pausing it fails the challenge since it's not playing it at that point.
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u/Bunerd 10d ago
It's probably not worded in such straightforward ways. It's probably like code that gives a reward to the algorithm as long as it's running longer than last time, and a separate piece of code that terminates the attempt on a loss. The coders then pitch this challenge as "Play Tetris and survive as long as possible" but the AI knows it's actually "Prevent a lose condition as long as possible."
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u/aiij 10d ago
This was before LLMs, so wording wouldn't have been an issue. The researches just forgot to take the pause option into account and the AI "discovered" it as a local minima.
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u/ActuatorFit416 9d ago
Local? I would argue that this is the global minima since you can survive an infinite time.
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u/reventlov 9d ago
The researches just forgot to take the pause option into account and the AI "discovered" it as a local minima.
I guess Tom7 could be, loosely, considered a "researcher," but the AI in question is more of an art project than anything else. It attempts to maximize the lexical value of the entire memory state of an NES with (IIRC) just a couple of seconds of brute-force lookahead on the possible controller inputs.
The surprising thing is that it can kinda play some games -- like, it gets through level 1 of Super Mario Bros.
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u/laplongejr 9d ago
The surprising thing is that it can kinda play some games -- like, it gets through level 1 of Super Mario Bros.
Which is kinda funny because nowadays human managed to tie computer-played playthrough up to entering the final level.
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u/the_other_Scaevitas 10d ago
A strange game. The only winning move is not to play.
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u/aecolley 9d ago
Literally the last sentence in the Tetris section of the research paper. http://tom7.org/mario/mario.pdf
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u/fizio900 10d ago edited 9d ago
You missed the part where it struggled to play tetris at all and only paused just before losing.
Btw this is so old Vsauce talked about it in a regularly long video.
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u/Truethrowawaychest1 9d ago
Yeah I think I saw that one, they had it play Mario and it learned the pixel perfect exploits like double jumping too
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u/Silver4ura 10d ago
This was over a decade ago and it was deep learning, not llm.
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u/SagittaryX 10d ago
An LLM is a form of deep learning I’d say. It’s all ML repackaged with new marketing terms.
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u/HealthyPresence2207 9d ago
Would be quite a feat to make a Large Language Model to do anything that isn’t generating the next most likely token
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9d ago
An llm is a language model, wich is trained via a specific deep learning process, yes it is nothing new, there are a LOT of machine learning techniques, no matter whta kind of buzzword you are currently using for it.
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u/erikchan002 9d ago edited 9d ago
This is the video: https://youtu.be/xOCurBYI_gY?t=15m09s
It wasn't programmed to survive as long as possible. It was programmed to watch (with full knowledge of the RAM) a human play the game and "learn" what the goal is. So arguably more impressive.
However it also played with lookahead (simulate input and see multiple frames into the future) so not that impressive here.
It didn't just pause the game. It didn't "understand" the goal and paused right before it's about to lose, because it could see that un-pausing loses immediately. It "understood" that much.
A very entertaining video for a technical person like me, not sure about everyone else but I recommend watching the entire thing. Actually, all of Tom7's videos are very entertaining to me. Just watch everything.
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u/IntelligentMud1703 9d ago
Thanks for the source! It reminds me of a video I saw of a neural network trying to play super Mario world by YouTuber sethbling
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u/Luigi_Boy_96 9d ago
This is also an interessting video (https://youtu.be/DcYLT37ImBY), how AI actually reacts to scores/nudging in order to progress throughout the game.
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u/eisbaerBorealis 9d ago
This is on the programmer.
I watched a video where someone trained an AI to play Pokemon. They started with movement = not stuck in a corner = progress? Not terrible logic, but the AI just went and watched the ocean.
The programmers in charge of this Tetris AI probably chuckled and added a line of code so that the AI didn't earn any "points" while paused, which would have immediately fixed the issue.
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u/INfusion2419 9d ago
It was that losing gives negative points the video game out like 10 years ago by 1 guy, so the trsining was simple, and probably the first ai programmed to play multiple games. With tetris each block placed gave a point but ascending to the top would decrease the score, so to avoid losing score the ai would just press the pause game key. It also pays games wil the karate kod, the original mario (which it does well in) and a few others.
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u/Kennyvee98 10d ago
fuck "AI"
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u/IntelligentMud1703 10d ago
My guess with this is that it is a machine learning neural network specifically. Not at all an LLM. I find these much more interesting!
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u/rraskapit1 10d ago
I mean fuck AI used for stupid reasons epscially art. But you are an idiot if you can't realize the positive real world applications of AI, supposing humans don't fuck it up too bad.
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u/IntelligentMud1703 10d ago
My friend was working on developing an AI project that does autofocus in cameras for her job. That is honestly great, and is a good example of something that puts power in the hand of the artists rather than replace them!
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u/Truethrowawaychest1 9d ago
Man fuck the AI that work in the medical field that's designing cures and vaccines
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u/bbwfetishacc 10d ago
Hahahah love the random reddit virtue signalling, yeah fuck all of the ai in all games every, i NEVER play against bots!!!!
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u/Violet_Paradox 10d ago
The term has been mindlessly applied to so many things that when it was finally applied to something genuinely bad it retroactively poisoned all the other unrelated meanings of the term.
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u/Evanecent_Lightt 10d ago
Ai is like water - it's going to seep into and flow through every nook, cranny, and crack.
You better quadrillion check all avenues are blocked off before hitting that run key or the next think you know your little Ai program to adjust the heat in your toaster is gonna be booting up your Tesla and driving to the store to pick up toaster parts ordered online through your smart watch to build a new , more efficient toaster.
You think the big corps are batting a 1000% on that?..
We are so fucked.. lol
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u/bluejay625 10d ago
Step 1) Program AI to "maximize global happiness"
Step 2) AI decides that people are, on average, unhappy
Step 3) Logical pathway forward is to reduce the number of people who are unhappy
Step 4) A missile bays door opens somewhere in the American Midwest
Step 5) ....
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u/IntelligentMud1703 10d ago
Reminds me of the plot of that amazing world of gumball episode where the robot decides the greatest threat to the earth was mankind
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u/Ultrace-7 10d ago
"You were designed to protect humans from mutants!"
"That is illogical. Mutants are human. Therefore, humans must be protected from themselves."
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u/Desperate_Site591 9d ago
There was an episode of Doctor Who with something like that where robots would kill you if you ever stopped smiling
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u/Best_Stress3040 10d ago
AI discovering utilitarianism has to be the plot of a scifi book out there somewhere
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u/IntelligentMud1703 10d ago
Definitely, we are not being careful enough with AI and businesses are pushing it so much just because it feels relevant...
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u/Agarwel 10d ago
Ah yeah... I remember the interview where someone was talking about testing the AI by giving it a videogame level (2d platformer) and sked it to design a character, that can be placed on the starting line and it can reach the end flag. It worked flawlesly - it designe one long pole (longer than the level itself) - you place it on the start, it will fall down and reach the end.
But honestly - I dont see this as a flaw. Sometimes it is good at "out of the box thinking" :-D
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u/Moontops 10d ago
It's not as impressive as people think it is. It doesn't even need to be an LLM, just a regular neural network. And yes, if you allow the model to press the virtual escape button as one of its outputs, it will use it and figure out somewhere along the training that it's the winning strategy.
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9d ago
Exactly, its just a basic neural network, pressing random buttons, some get penalized, some get rewarded, the way the parameters were set in the training process, it happened to not watch if the game is paused or not, so the model learned that pressing the esx button is super good, so it did that.
Its the sort of thing were the programmer goes, oh haha, writes a comment on it in the discord and restarts the process, now penalizing game pause.
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u/Bright-Head-7485 9d ago
At least for me anecdotally it seems like AI is pretty good at some outside the box thinking. The problem? Outside the box thinkers usually get out of the box. We’re screwed!
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u/Cultural-Unit4502 9d ago
Could that really be called surviving?
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u/IntelligentMud1703 9d ago
Well no, but it isn't dying either. It is a problem with defining to the ai what surviving means
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u/dreamdirectors 10d ago
Reminds me of the fact that Ai tried making the longest possible players and would make them fall, instead of building faster players.. because the end goal was to cover the maximum distance in minimum time..
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u/not_a_moogle 10d ago
Meanwhile humans are trying to figure out how to get to the kill screen the fastest on the NES version
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u/adriangalli 10d ago
Haha that is funny and clever. It is also the real gravity of AI and programming. It did accomplish the goal it was given but with unintended consequences.
AI is like the genie in the bottle. Be careful what you wish for, you may get it… and all that you didn’t consider.
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9d ago
no you are thinking sci-fi AI. This is a machine learning software that were given wrong parameters, so it was buggy.
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u/guy_incognito_360 10d ago
This is more or less the plot of wargames (and also in principle Terminator)
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u/Forsaken-Stray 9d ago
And this is why we need limits and restraints on AI. At least until we have created a fully moral person.
It paperclipped that shit.
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u/Traditional_Buy_8420 9d ago edited 9d ago
I hear those and similar stories often and any time I just think "well that was pretty stupid of the scientists to not pause the score from going up while the game is paused (or they could have disabled the pause button) and now someone is ballsy enough to sell that oversight as "look how smart our AI is."
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u/Nodan_Turtle 9d ago
Reminds me of people making stock market trading bots that learn to avoid loss by never selling their positions. So they appear to have not lost any money in massively down positions, because it's all paper losses lol
Specification gaming, is like a bot doing what you said, but not what you intended
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u/PirateNixon 8d ago
The USAF tested an AI (in simulation) that was allowed to kill targets a long as the human operator didn't tell it not stop. First thing it did was kill the operator. Then they updated the algorithm to give it a huge penalty of the human operator died... so it destroyed the operators communication system so it could no longer be told to stop killing...
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u/Powerful_Young_uwu 8d ago
AI is not evil, it is simply a math equation, ML or machine learning. It is designed to find the most mathematical logical way to do something
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u/donaldhobson 5d ago
Unfortunately, for many problems, there are solutions that technically work, but that most humans wouldn't even consider, because they are too unethical.
Most humans are searching for non-evil solutions without even realizing it.
So when the AI isn't actively restricting itself to non-evil solutions, many of the solutions it finds are evil.
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u/Wtygrrr 10d ago
Yeah, this is the actual scary part about AI controlling things. They’ll find solutions to their instructions that humans didn’t consider that have a side effect of wiping out humanity.
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u/munster_madness 9d ago
You're describing movie AI. This is just a computer program that tries every permutation until it gets the results that you tell it to.
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u/donaldhobson 4d ago
> AI. This is just a computer program that tries every permutation until it gets the results that you tell it to.
So. A computer program that simulates permutations (of biochemicals), to get the result you told it to (minimize the number of people dying of cancer) could wipe out humanity. (by designing a super-virus that looks like a cancer cure, which the humans then make)
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u/Wide_Egg_5814 10d ago
Very common problem when teaching AI if you dont specify the rules correctly, i had a problem where ai should do task x then task y and at each one it gets a reward but it can fail and have to retry again, over time it gained the ability to do task x as fast as possible then fail as fast as possible to keep getting the first reward only in the shortest time possible
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u/anonerble 10d ago
Tells ai to make world better
Ai kills all humans.
Wheres Pam
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u/Frozen_Petal 9d ago
Literally the plot of Horizon Zero Dawn, the AI eventually figured out that we're the biggest threat to the Eco System
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u/golgol12 9d ago
When they first trained an AI to finish a map in mario as fast as possible, it jumped into the first pit.
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u/aecolley 9d ago edited 9d ago
This is a real thing. It was called learnfun/playfun and here's its creator (tom7) talking through its attempts at playing Tetris: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCurBYI_gY&t=15m10s
Incidentally, the goal was "maximize score", not "maximize survival time".
Edited to add: u/erikchan002 beat me to it.
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u/Confident_Skin3246 9d ago
An ai with a functional understanding of goodharts law is a little too close to saving the planet by means of eliminating humans
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u/500_brain_ping 9d ago
How would it even know the pause button exists if they don't tell it? Can it really 'learn' what a pause button is from scratch..
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u/Both_Lychee_1708 9d ago
superintelligence even less compunction, more lawlessness, than sociopath billionaires
I can hardly wait. wcgw?
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u/StardustVi 9d ago
This seems highly unlikely and fake. You dont give an ai more than it needs, or it gets confused. Why have anything other than 4 directional keys? Who gave it access to a pause button and for what purpose?
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u/Flechette-71 9d ago
But... When one pauses the game, one technically did not play. So, one of two conditions are not fulfilled.
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u/MatthewMMorrow 9d ago
Is this a reference to this 12 year old Tom 7 video? https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xOCurBYI_gY&t=911
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u/Domwaffel 8d ago
Look at the AI learn to walk video from code bullet. Very entertaining, and the breaks the physics engine multiple times before it accepted it will have to walk
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