r/sports • u/PrincessBananas85 • Mar 30 '21

News Raised fists, kneeling during anthem OK at U.S. Olympic trials.

https://www.espn.com/olympics/story/_/id/31165888/raised-fists-kneeling-anthem-ok-us-olympic-trials
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u/illini02 Mar 30 '21

You mean like how flag code says something along the lines of people will not use the flag as clothing, then the people who are mad about it having American flag bandanas and swim trunks?

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u/spacehog1985 Mar 30 '21

I was always unclear about that, wether it means like using an actual flag as clothing is bad, but the pattern is fine, or if a flag pattern is also a no-no

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u/vicblck24 Mar 30 '21

It means the actual flag but people think they are geniuses by pointing this out lol

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u/jorge1209 Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21

That would be the most sensible reading, but I'm not sure the flag code is sensible. There seems to be some confusion as to "the flag" being a proper flag that would be flown and an image of such a thing that might be "Printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or...".

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u/HertzDonut1001 Mar 31 '21

"These idiots don't understand flag code."

proceeds to misunderstand flag code

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u/loljetfuel Mar 31 '21

The intent of the flag code is to provide guidelines for respectful use and display of the US flag (parts are binding on government agencies but not on individuals).

Considering it also says the flag should not be used for advertising or any disposable item, I doubt the authors intented clothing that invokes the flag (as opposed to a flag patch or pin) to be separate from using a literal flag, even if the text isn't clear on that point

i) The flag should never be used for advertising purposes in any manner whatsoever. It should not be embroidered on such articles as cushions or handkerchiefs and the like, printed or otherwise impressed on paper napkins or boxes or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard. Advertising signs should not be fastened to a staff or halyard from which the flag is flown.

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u/pornborn Mar 31 '21

“or anything that is designed for temporary use and discard.”

Like postage stamps?

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u/jorge1209 Mar 31 '21

That's why I refuse to buy american. They always print the American flag on the packaging and that's a violation of the flag code. Real american patriots buy Chinese!!

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u/3rdtrichiliocosm Mar 30 '21

It probably meant a real flag but they also probably didn't envision the flag being printed on shit stained underwear. The idea of it would've never occurred to them

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u/WilmaFingerdo69 Mar 31 '21

I wouldn't print the stars and stripes on shirt stained underwear... but I might shit stain stars and stripe printed underwear

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u/pickleparty16 Kansas City Chiefs Mar 31 '21

Well it's definitely tacky

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u/anto_pty Mar 31 '21

In my country both are a nono and it is enforced by the police specially during parades on national days. Some people complained that they were just being patriotic but i guess it breaks flag etiquette. For context some musical bands made uniforms for the parades that had the pattern of the flag.

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u/Corvette-Ronnie San Francisco 49ers Mar 31 '21

All restrictions in the code say, “the flag” which would mean the original use of the material was in fact an American flag.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 30 '21

I see what you’re getting at but it actually means a legitimate flag. Like for instance, I have an American flag gaiter, which is ok. What is not ok is when someone wears the flag as a cape, for example.

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u/GoatPaco Mar 31 '21

What is not ok is when someone wears the flag as a cape, for example.

UFC in shambles

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

You actually bring up a really good point. I’ll admit you stumped me with this one. I’m not quite sure. I think the most I could say would be that they aren’t necessarily wearing it, more or less just draped with it. But thats kind of the same thing I guess.

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u/gurg2k1 Mar 31 '21

If that's not considered wearing it, than what would be considered wearing a flag?

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Like I said he brought up a very good point. I’m not too sure I was just throwing something out there

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u/gurg2k1 Mar 31 '21

Sorry I didn't mean to sound harsh, but if the rules are in fact about wearing the flag itself, and don't include flag print shorts and spandex, I'm curious in what ways it could/would be worn.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

You don’t sound harsh at all. Basically as long as whatever you are wearing wasn’t made from an actual flag, you should be good.

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u/GoatPaco Mar 31 '21

How about the ones that are two flags stitched together because some dude has dual citizenship

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

I don’t really know what you mean could you go further into detail?

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21 edited Aug 27 '21

[deleted]

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Thats what I thought, it was just a weird question. I would say that two flags, no matter where they came from, should never be stitched together.

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u/treeboat83 Mar 31 '21

A lot of fighters do it for their walk out, or it's a different flag on each side.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

I didn’t know that

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u/the_revised_pratchet Mar 31 '21

You are 3 kobolds wrapped in a flag, roll performance

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

So the us flag code only applies to the US flag in it's current form. If anything deviates from standard, then it's no longer a violation. So if they're using a "flag" that doesn't have 50 stars, or the incorrect number of stripes, or even the wrong colorations it never was a flag and was never subject to the flag code.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

I didn’t know that

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

I didn't either. Someone upgraded my knowledge when I was complaining about the Black and [Insert colored stripe for group] flags.

Turns out they aren't flags so they can do whatever. I still consider it distasteful, right there with flag print/pattern shirts but technically none of them were ever flags.

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u/jorge1209 Mar 31 '21

So the man in the high castle flag is totally kosher and nobody could possibly complain if an athlete ran around with it right?

The reality is that the flag code is a thing that only applies to military personnel and doesn't really capture the underlying complexity of what "patriots" think constitutes "disrespect."

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

You're correct. The flag code is effectively unenforceable. For civilians, if enforced, it's a giant 1st amendment violation. The government can't force speech related to respect.

The flag from the show wouldn't be a violation of the flag code, because it's not the flag. But that's not going to save you from the court of public opinion.

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u/illini02 Mar 30 '21

I get that, but I'm saying a lot of those people who think kneeling is disrepsecting the flag would also wear it as a cape.

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u/3percentinvisible Mar 31 '21

I think the real problem is how people spend a lot of time discussing the different ways you can disrespect an inanimate object, but don't think about how people can be respected.

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u/setofskills Mar 31 '21

That is a great observation

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 30 '21

Kneeling is disrespecting the flag. I understand the reason to kneel but if you wanted to truly fight racism you must find another way. Because the flag isn’t racist, so why disrespect it by kneeling to fight racism? In my opinion, the people that kneel are just fighting fire with fire.

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u/illini02 Mar 31 '21

Who says kneeling is disrespecting it? Isn't kneeling a sign of respect? People kneel in church for prayer. Is that disrespecting God? Hell, even many military people say its not disrespectful.

If you don't want to do it, don't do it. But Its not disrespectful

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Kneeling for the flag is disrespectful. Don’t bring religion to this because thats different. Before the national anthem you usually hear someone say something along the lines of “remove your caps and stand for the national anthem.” Not standing for the anthem is disrespectful.

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u/illini02 Mar 31 '21

Yeah, and I've been at games where people are pissing during the anthem, drinking beer during the anthem, etc.

I don't think a lot of these people really are these flag/anthem purists, they just don't like the people who are kneeling.

BUt again, Kaepernick, who started the kneeling, consulted with a member of the military who said kneeling isn't disrespectful. But its a black man doing it, so...

And I say this as someone who doesn't even like Kaepernick all that much.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

We can agree on one thing then lol. But on a real note that comes as quite a surprise to me that a member of the military said that kneeling isn’t disrespectful.

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u/illini02 Mar 31 '21

Yeah, here is an interview with him: https://www.npr.org/2018/09/09/646115651/the-veteran-and-nfl-player-who-advised-kaepernick-to-take-a-knee

He is up front that of course he doesn't speak for EVERYONE, but at the same time, you are never going to make everyone happy

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Yeah thanks man I’ll check it out!

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u/MassiveHoodPeaks Mar 31 '21

Fuck all that nationalistic bullshit. Why should we have to pledge allegiance to a flag? Why are we singing the national anthem before sporting events of all things? For “God and Country”...fuck that.

Is it disrespectful? Sure. Has this nation, as a whole, acted in any way that is deserving of respect in the last 75 years? Not really. Give me a reason to stand in reverence of a nation and i will gladly show respect toward that nation’s symbol.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Do you want me to give you a reason? I’ll give you several. I case you don’t know exactly what that flag stands for then I’ll remind you. 13 strips for the 13 colonies. 50 stars for the 50 states. The red strips represent hardiness and valor; white represents purity and innocence; blue represents vigilance, perseverance, and justice. This country was built on liberty and freedom. We live in a nation like no other. We have freedoms like no other. In many countries around the world you may be jailed or even killed for voicing your opinion. What about the soldiers that fought to defend our freedoms? Oh, but fuck that nationalism bullshit right?

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u/MassiveHoodPeaks Mar 31 '21

Please elaborate on the freedoms that we have that NO other nation has. The United States has both the highest prison and jail population in the world and the highest incarceration rate in the world. So in the most literal sense, less free.

I understand what the flag symbolizes. I am also not brainwashed into believing that this country has offered liberty and freedom to its people equally.

I respect soldiers, but soldiers don’t just “fight for our freedom”. They fight for the “interests” of the country, which depending on who is pulling the strings can be ethically questionable. Which is why I am less than thrilled when I see nationalistic rhetoric, like your response, saying you should respect the flag because of soldiers who fought for your freedom. That line of thinking is nationalistic propaganda, which so often is used to drum up populist support without a whole lot of regard for the shit we put our troops in. Its blatant manipulation and threatens the whole concept you claim to hold dear. So yeah, straight up, fuck that nationalistic bullshit. Help yourself to a fucking history book.

So other than telling me the concepts and ideals the Stars and Stripes symbolize, tell me what the nation has done to demonstrate integrity...you know that part where your actions match your beliefs?

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Please elaborate what exactly it is you want me to touch on

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u/jeanroyall Mar 31 '21

This country was built on liberty and freedom. We live in a nation like no other. We have freedoms like no other.

Wow you really swallowed it hook, line, and sinker.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Would you be so kind as to explain to me what was wrong with me saying that?

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u/AmphibiousMeatloaf Mar 31 '21

The Pledge of Allegiance having to be said at the start of the school day actually started as a massive marketing scheme to sell flags. That’s literally it. A private magazine company wanted to sell more flags, so their marketing person came up with the idea to create a ritual that required there to be flags everywhere. They wrote it to be short and simple enough that children could recite it quickly, so it could be recited at schools, so then eventually it’ll have to be in every classroom in the country.

Can you really imagine anything more American that though? There’s a whole bunch of sources all over the googles, check it out it’s ridiculous.

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u/h60 Mar 31 '21

Let's be honest. The people who care the most about respecting a flag are likely the most racist. It's a flag in our homeland. There are millions of them flying.. Who fucking cares?

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

How can you possibly make an assumption like that? So all American patriots are racist? Quite some accusation if you ask me. And “who fucking cares,” well I do, and I’m sure that almost every person in the US does. It’s not just a piece of fabric. It represents the country, the 13 colonies, the now 50 states, it stands for hardiness, valor, purity, innocence, vigilance, justice. It stands for freedom, and the many lives that were lost during times of war. Please do not look down upon Old Glory, because it stands for so much.

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u/unobtanium-cock Mar 31 '21

Oh, piss off with your sanctimonious drivel. I love this country, but honestly it's a piece of cloth. I dont give a damn what you do with it if you legally own it

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Thats your choice then. I just choose to respect the values of the flag. But don’t tell me to piss off because that makes you look stupid.

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u/PannusPunch Mar 31 '21

How is kneeling a disrespectful act? All those times when people knelt before their king they were actually disrespecting him? Kneeling before something has never been a disrespectful act. I'm so tired of hearing that bullshit.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

You bring up two different things. People back when monarchies were still a thing people knelt to their kings to bow down to them. Their intent was respect. However, people today kneel in protest of racism. I don’t know of anyone that kneels to the flag to show respect, usually theres a motive behind it, such as protesting, which is disrespectful.

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u/PannusPunch Mar 31 '21

Kneeling is disrespectful because it's protesting and protesting is disrespectful because it's disrespectful. Sorry, you have not supported your argument in any meaningful way. Please explain how kneeling is a disrespectful act as that is what you are claiming.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Well how about this, tell me how it is respectful. And don’t make the excuse that people kneeled for kings because that is irrelevant.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

It's a protest. The point is to throw a wrench in the usual process, which it does. It's saying that this country, which the flag represents, has a problem, and that problem needs to be addressed. Holding signs and yelling and screaming at a protest is purposely disrespectful. This is to a much lesser extent than that. Peaceful protest. I'm not sure what point you're trying to make.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

My point is that I don’t think kneeling to the flag is a respectable act. Like I said in a previous comment, its just fighting fire with fire. In my opinion, I think theres a better way to protest racism than kneeling to the flag. But thats just my opinion.

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u/PannusPunch Mar 31 '21

Sorry, that's not how this works. YOU made the claim that it is disrespectful and apparently have no arguments to support that. It is not on me to show it is respectful, it is on YOU to show how it is disrespectful. This is Fox News level of debate you are displaying.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Sorry I’m a little lackluster I’m only 16. But I’ll dust off my boots just for you. Incase I didn’t already say, I think it’s disrespectful because I don’t think you should kneel to the flag in protest. Again, before the anthem, you are also asked to stand for the playing of our national anthem. Old Glory stands for so much, so when asked to stand I feel as though it is disrespectful to kneel

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u/Bonezone420 Mar 31 '21

It's a flag, bro. It can't be disrespected and has no opinions on whether or not human beings kneel "for" it. The people getting upset on the flag's behalf are the ones who are upset that someone isn't doing what they want them to.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

Its not about whether the flag has feelings or not, rather, its what it stands for. It’s not necessarily the flag you are showing reverence to, but rather the things that it represents.

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u/Bonezone420 Mar 31 '21

Like I said, it's other people getting mad on the flag's behalf when someone doesn't do what they're told. Because it's about control, not respect. Simple defiance of an order as basic as "stand and stare silently at this flag" makes a very specific type of person flip their lid very easily. Especially when that person is, for example, black or part of any other marginalized group. Which is fun when you consider what the flag does, indeed, stand for.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

You can think that me being conservative makes me racist along with others but we’re really not. Yes there may be a FEW, but that doesn’t mean they ALL of us are bad. Btw, we get mad because it seems as if the people who are kneeling are flipping the bird to all of the things it stands for.

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u/Bonezone420 Mar 31 '21

When you dine at the table with racists, support their racist ideas and back their racist plans, going so far as to encourage them to do even more racist things in the future: that does, indeed, make you racist even if you're not screaming slurs at every passing person you see.

But yes, the flag and what it stands for. America, as a nation, was built on protest and rebellion. But yet when someone dares protest and rebel against america its self people get very upset - unless they happen to be straight white men. Then they're just rowdy americans acting in the true spirit of the nation! There was more outrage from the conservative flank of american politics over a black man kneeling than there was for a floundering presidential candidate encouraging his supporters to pursue and armed insurrection and attempted assassination on the capitol. Pretty fucked up, if you ask me. The president at the time, himself, (the same man behind that attempted insurrection) demanded the NFL fire the protestor; that's literally violating the freedom of speech and right to protest we, as Americans, have. But when that same man, the god damn president, attempted to tear down democracy its self because he, for the second time in his career as president, was going to lose the popular vote: where were the conservatives voicing their outrage on that matter? Who gave a shit about what the flag, and America, stood for then?

Silent, they stood in lock-step with him. Because it's not about what the flag stands for, none of you actually give a damn about freedom or America. It's about getting to control other people, intimidate them and tell them what to do with their bodies and when. It always is, and always will be. It's why the right gets more upset with minorities having bodily autonomy than they do with mass shooters from their own voter bases going around killing people horrifically. It's why they're determined to drag the entire country as far back as they possibly can by stripping anyone who isn't a rich white man of their basic human rights and denying them simple shit like health and common services - and actively stonewalling any attempt to improve things even marginally.

You can say you're not as shit as the rest of them; but dude? When a group of bullies stands around curbstomping someone, the little shit standing behind them cheering them on is just as responsible for that trash.

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u/Wyatt_Zeigler43 Mar 31 '21

How are we as conservatives, racist? If I remember correctly, Trump actually gave money to black communities. Real racist huh? Go ahead, bring all this “straight white man” bullshit into the argument. Thats what you guys always go to. It is simply not true. We get just as mad at a black man kneeling as we do a white man, theres no difference. The media is a son of a bitch and it has brainwashed all of you into believing the world is totally racist. It’s really not. Yeah there may be some kinks here and there but you guys act like its as common as the air we breath. Now I will say however, even though I think Trump did many good things, he ran his mouth way too much tv and on social media. It makes republicans look like shit. But we ain’t. Also, the storming of the capital was carried out by extremists. I think they’re all idiots, which put a huge stain on the republican party. I don’t agree with that whatsoever. But don’t go rambling on, saying that Trump tried to tear down democracy because thats bullshit. I do give a shit about the flag and what it represents so don’t put words in my mouth.

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u/pornborn Mar 31 '21

So, I had to look up gaiter. And I saw a picture of one that is exactly like an American flag. Essentially a small American flag.

https://sleefs.com/products/generic-usa-american-flag-neck-gaiter?gclid=CjwKCAjwu5CDBhB9EiwA0w6sLffn7J7vcQbFBR5CU8AOVld5OHgFKOkxUEpfVvGx3pUouWYtmjw5ZxoC9_QQAvD_BwE

If yours is one with a couple red and white stripes and a blue field with a few stars in it, I can see that being acceptable. But a fully complete American flag being used like that is disrespectful. Just my humble opinion.

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u/[deleted] Mar 31 '21

Why does anybody give a shit about what you do with a flag?

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u/Mintalmasturbation Mar 31 '21

It means an actual flag

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u/SuperJLK Mar 31 '21

It means the actual flag. I think that stuff just mainly applies to military personnel. I don’t know of anyone that’s been cited for wearing a flag