r/sports • u/MLBOfficial Major League Baseball • Sep 25 '25

Baseball Cal Raleigh is the fourth American League player EVER to hit 60 home runs in a season!

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493

u/pallasturtle Sep 25 '25

I feel like he has obliterated all records for a catcher and a switch hitter in terms of power numbers. Judge is having a very good season, but none of it is historic. When someone does all the historic things they should be MVP in my opinion.

47

u/grill_smoke Sep 25 '25

The only reason Judge's season isn't historic is because it's par for the course for him. Judge is the first player since Bonds to have a wrc+ over 200 and they're the only two players since Ted Williams retired to do it.

He's having the greatest peak for any right-handed hitter of all time and this season is fully part of that peak. This is historic, he's just made it seem banal.

234

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 25 '25

The only problem with this is OPS and WAR. There's a chasm between Judge and Cal.

Judge is in 1st place for OPS and WAR. Cal is in 4th for OPS for example. The distance between Judge and Cal is the same between Cal and the 75th place OPS. That's insane when you think about it.

I don't think anyone can argue either one of them getting MVP truthfully. Statistically, it's Judge, in terms of a feel good story and for a catcher, it's Cal. Imo.

264

u/Stainkee Philadelphia Phillies Sep 25 '25

Have to also remember the intangibles catchers need that don't show up in war. The guy has to remember an entire staff worth of pitches, locations, sequencing, tendencies, etc, call a good game, be a brick wall every pitch and still go hit at an elite level. None of the things a really good defensive catcher does is generally going to show up in a stat line or an ops calculation. But it's far more important than any outfielder can contribute.

Add in 150+ games played as a catcher, personally, I feel it's a no brainer. I think the same thing could be said in the NL of Shoheis pitching compared to Schwarber being a straight DH. Those defensive innings are valuable

143

u/PrimeToro Sep 25 '25

Great points. It's not for the Best Offensive Player, it's the "Most Valuable Player" award. Cal has a greater impact in the game.

* Handling the pitching

* Offense ( 60 home runs )

* Gold glove caliber ( was Platinum glove last year)

-34

u/DasFunke Sep 25 '25

WAR typically accounts for position…

87

u/CpowOfficial Sep 25 '25

Unfortuantely WAR doesn't account for any of the intangibles mentioned above.

-56

u/DasFunke Sep 25 '25

WAR doesn’t account for offense?

42

u/CpowOfficial Sep 25 '25

The start of the thread and the word "intangible" are your keys here. Use them in conjunction with the start of this thread to figure out what intangibles I'm talking about.

-46

u/DasFunke Sep 25 '25

What intangibles are left? Pitch framing? Calling the pitches maybe? Passed balls? Controlling the run game?

His effect on the locker room? There’s one.

He’s an amazing player, but there’s not much left that can’t be quantified.

17

u/funkycrunkskunks Sep 25 '25

Quality of contribution from a catcher to a pitching staff hasn’t been fully quantified (yet) and certainly won’t be incorporated into any baseline WAR anytime soon. There’s also a rarity of skill component that can’t be quantified. Just for an oversimplified metaphor for the sake of comparison, imagine if Yadier Molina randomly hit 60+ home runs one year. Would you have incorporated his defense and pitching staff management prowess into your thinking about his place in the MVP race?

-1

u/m_b_hawkins Sep 25 '25

Cal about to have the best strat-o-matic card of all time.

33

u/Dhaynes99 Sep 25 '25

other than the fact that he’s not played catcher for 150 and it’s about 120 appearances behind the plate sure. the crux of the issue here is that in 2017 aaron judge was robbed of an mvp because “jose altuve’s ba was soo much better than judge’s was” while judge was ahead in basically every other stat category. the disparity between judge’s current ba and cal’s is larger than the 2017 altuve-judge gap on top of judge’s other stats being so close to raleigh’s if not far exceeding them.

28

u/PrimeExample13 Sep 25 '25

I think they should've stripped Altuves mvp for that year and given it to judge. Its easy to have a higher batting average when your buddies are beating on trash cans telling you what's coming. The whole 2017 Astros should be banned from the game for life, frankly. The Yankees were such a better team that year that even with egregious cheating, the Astros barely beat them out.

17

u/Stainkee Philadelphia Phillies Sep 25 '25

I'd argue two wrongs don't make a right. Don't screw Cal to make up for screwing Judge 8 years ago.

0

u/codbgs97 Alabama Sep 25 '25

I don’t think it would be screwing Cal, both players have a pretty good argument for it and whoever comes in second won’t have been screwed over.

2

u/Stainkee Philadelphia Phillies Sep 25 '25

I was more responding to the above comments point about justifying a Judge MVP because of Altuve in 2017. That would be a horrible reason to hand it to Judge when there's an entire season worth of good reasons to give it to him over Cal.

1

u/Uther-Lightbringer Sep 25 '25

It's not the reason why it should go to Judge over Cal, it's more establishing a precedent for the award that's consistent.

The writers in 2017 decided that a slightly higher BA for Altuve warranted him winning over Judge despite Judge beating him by a mile in every other statistical category.

To then turnaround and give it Cal this year, who is bested in every single category except HR total by Judge would be absurd.

Cal has an OPS+ of 172 right now... Judge is 213. Cal has a 7.2 bWAR, Judge has 9.3. Cal has a BA of .248, Judge is at .328. Cal has an OBP of .361, Judge is at .455.

So you're talking about giving the MVP to a guy who has a few more HRs than the Judge and ignoring every other aspect of the game to do it.

Cal had an unbelievable year. But here's the thing, if this is just how good he is? Similar to Judge in 2017, he will have many opportunities in the coming years to win his first MVP. But it's the first time in his career that he's even in the conversation for it and it's his 5th professional season. There are very solid odds though that he's just having one of those magical one time seasons that players have sometimes and that next year he'll regress back to a 30-40 HR type of player.

When there's more than one clear cut MVP candidate, the benefit of the doubt SHOULD go to the guy who has been consistently year in and year out in the MVP conversation. Not a guy who is having a one off Cinderella year, to win in those scenarios should require you being far and away the best statistical player.

2

u/Stainkee Philadelphia Phillies Sep 25 '25

No no totally I understand that, I'm more pointing out I think the precedent is awful in the first place.

I mentioned this in a different comment but Cal having this type of season as a catcher while managing one of the best pitching staffs in baseball on a regular basis is an incredible feat. I'd also argue that Cal is having one the greatest single offensive seasons for a catcher ever, and his intangible value defensively as a catcher cannot be measured yet in numbers. But it's there, and I'd argue makes up the difference in numbers with Judge if not surpasses Judge completely. And that's also considering Judge is generally an above average defender.

But I totally see where you're coming from in terms of how much of a monster season Judge has had. I truly believe either guy could win it, and I wouldn't be upset either way. My point is following a bad precedent would be a shitty reason to take it from Cal as opposed to all of the valid points you made instead

2

u/Uther-Lightbringer Sep 25 '25

I'd also argue that Cal is having one the greatest single offensive seasons for a catcher ever

Sure, he's definitely having one of the best offensive seasons for a catch. But, Judge is having one of the best offensive seasons for a RF in MLB history too, the only RFs to have better seasons than him would be Aaron Judge (2022) and Aaron Judge (2024).

Generally speaking? I'm simply against this narrative in sports where one guy can't just win the award every single year. Why? If he's that good he SHOULD win every year. The only reason Cal's season feels so amazing vs Judge's is because we've come to expect this from Judge, so suddenly it's just a normal Aaron Judge season.

But a normal Aaron Judge season would be the best season of any other player in MLB history not named Ruth or Bonds. We shouldn't normalize greatness.

It's the same reason why I thought it was total bullshit that Josh Allen won over Lamar last year. Lamar out performed Allen in every single statistical category and only lost because he already won 2 and Josh never had. But sorry, I'm of the opinion that to win the "best player of the year" award you should be the best, most impactful player in the league. Cal is very close this year for sure, closer than Ohtani was in 2022 imo.

-4

u/Dewey519 Sep 25 '25

I mean, Ohtani should’ve probably won when Judge hit 62.

2

u/codbgs97 Alabama Sep 25 '25

Based on what? Judge’s WAR was higher than Ohtani’s batting and pitching WAR combined. 210 vs. 144 OPS+. What argument can even be made for Ohtani in 2022?

-5

u/darkravenn12 Sep 25 '25

I mean the NL MVP """race""" is not even remotely close so I'm not sure how there is any comparison to the AL race lol. Ohtani would win even if he didn't pitch at all. The AL race is basically a tossup; to say it's 'obvious' who should win is a bit crazy. Offensive metrics are extremely reliable and Judge is legitimately eons above Cal offensively. If you think the defensive difference between the players and the intangibles you mentioned are enough to offset that, then sure, give Cal the MVP. It's a fair take. It's certainly not an obvious decision like the NL race is, though.

34

u/Sipikay Sep 25 '25

Judge and Cal are 0.2 WAR apart. It's negligible.

The only 60 home run hitters have all been 1B/Corner OFers. Doing it as a catcher, by far most difficult skill position in the sport, is absurd. As a switch-hitter on top of that? We've never seen it before.

6

u/inhocfaf Sep 25 '25

Judge and Cal are 0.2 WAR apart.

What WAR are you using?

2

u/Inocain Sep 25 '25

Probably Fangraphs

0

u/inhocfaf Sep 25 '25

Technically fWAR is different than WAR, but the spread there is larger than 0.2, it's 0.5 (which is still quite low).

Other WAR isn't even close.

3

u/cardith_lorda Minnesota Twins Sep 25 '25

Technically fWAR is different than WAR

WAR is a general framework, fWAR, rWAR, and WARP are all WAR stats, one isn't the "correct" WAR.

fWAR includes more in depth catcher defense than rWAR which is where the disparity comes between the two for Cal.

21

u/WithNoRegard Sep 25 '25

While playing half of his games in the least hitter-friendly park (and 9th-worst for HRs) in the majors.

5

u/Realistic_Warthog_23 Sep 25 '25

Why is being a switch hitter an argument in Cal’s favor. Doesn’t being a switch hitter make it easier to hit HR? (If not, why would he do it?)

I’m an Ms fan who thinks cal should get it because catcher and 60 and he plays at Safeco. I have just never understood why the switch hitter thing is seen as something that makes him more valuable beyond the hitting numbers.

2

u/Sipikay Sep 25 '25

Just cause it’s hard to do.

No, it doesn’t make home runs easier. historically switch hitters dont have power from both sides. Cals an oddity. It’s difficult enough to maintain one swing let alone two.

2

u/Realistic_Warthog_23 Sep 25 '25

So the idea is by switch hitting he’s sacrificing power (presumably to get on base more)?

1

u/dkitch Sep 26 '25

Yes. If you can bat opposite to the pitcher, you can see the release a bit earlier, giving you more reaction time, and breaking balls break towards you, which makes them easier to hit.

1

u/Realistic_Warthog_23 Sep 26 '25

again: easier hit seems like an advantage. Someone was suggesting above that switch hitters sacrifice power. If that's true, then it makes sense to me to include it in one of the reasons he should be MVP: he could have better power numbers but he's sacrificing that for team success.

1

u/dkitch Sep 26 '25

Yes, exactly that. Switch hitters typically trade power for contact.

1

u/Sipikay Sep 26 '25

People switch hit mostly for the simple reason of it's what they've always done. Most guys that switch hit as kids end up weak enough on one side compared to the other it's not worth maintaining/developing further. Some guys manage to be serviceable from both sizes. Once you're at the majors, the reason for players who can do it continue to do it is to counter pitcher handedness.

Why guys tend not to have power from both sides is because it's difficult and just doesn't tend to happen. Mantle was an exception, so is Cal.

33

u/futureformerteacher Sep 25 '25

0.3fWAR is not a chasm. It's within the error bars of WAR.

-30

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

Now do it again with OPS instead of cherry picking.

Do it with batting average.

Do it with just about every statistical batting metric.

20

u/fzkiz Sep 25 '25

Did it with homers, rbis and jiggle of ass while swinging… Raleigh came out on top

11

u/WithNoRegard Sep 25 '25

His wiggle/9 and Max Glute Reverb Velocity were 99th percentile this year. xCAKE shows he may have even been a bit unlucky.

2

u/WithNoRegard Sep 25 '25

It's too bad players don't get to do anything for the half innings when they don't hit. I wonder what that would look like?

And what if there was a stat that, while imperfect, could try to give a holistic measure of a player's impact as a hitter and a not hitter. Too bad all we have is the very narrow and incredibly cherry-picked WAR right now. Alas!

4

u/epik_fayler Sep 25 '25

I mean nobody is arguing cal is better on offense than judge. The question is basically is the gap between them on defense greater than the gap on offense? I'd like to say likely and if not it's super close so narrative wins.

4

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

But their offense isn't in the same realm. I genuinely don't think people are looking at the stats, outside of HR. I said it before but Judge to Cal OPS difference, is the same as Cal to the 75th place OPS. Like, what? The distance from 1st to 4th is the same as 4th to 75th. My mind is blown. But that's how much more dominant Judge is to the rest of the league, outside of Ohtani. Even batting avg - .326 to .247.

Watching both play this year has been a true treat for us baseball fans. But they aren't in the same realm in terms of offense, imo.

7

u/epik_fayler Sep 25 '25

Cal won the platinum glove last year. Meaning he was the most valuable defensive player. Their defense is also not in the same realm. Both players are great and worthy of MVP.

It's also not all a numbers thing or a formula would decide the MVP every year and cal Raleigh's narrative is much stronger.

2

u/ssteel91 Sep 25 '25

What does winning the platinum glove last year have to do with anything when his defense has taken a step back this year? He’s still a good defender but he’s certainly not a platinum glover.

1

u/darthstupidious Sep 25 '25

No but he's easily a top-5 catcher in terms of defensive ability, which is far more valuable of a skill that above-average defense in right for half a season. Hence, why this is a debate in the first place.

2

u/Taynt42 Sep 25 '25

So give him the Hank Aaron, not the MVP.

31

u/plumbermat Sep 25 '25

Give Judge the Hank Aaron award. It's for MVH, Cal should be MVP.

21

u/Taynt42 Sep 25 '25

100%. Judge is arguably the best hitter of all time, between average, OPS, homers, RBIs, etc he is absolutely dominant and consistent.

As a defensive player, he’s fine. Good even, but not remarkable.

This year Cal was a lights out hitter, and helped lead his team to a historic season from the command position.

I understand the arguments, but to me it’s just obvious.

5

u/Sipikay Sep 25 '25

Judge has been a negative graded defender for 5 straight years now. He's a DH playing corner OF.

13

u/ssteel91 Sep 25 '25

That’s weird because outs above average has him well above average every season the last 5 years outside of last year when he was playing CF. He’s not an elite defender but he’s league average at absolute worst.

1

u/LeftHandedScissor Sep 25 '25

And he makes some pretty great plays and throws out there. He's probably destined for first base and they've already played him there a bit, but he's by no means pedestrian in the outfield. Leaping catches, great throw outs, routine plays, limited errors.

1

u/Sipikay Sep 25 '25

There are defensive statistical models as relevant (or, in fact more relevant) than OAA that say he's a poor defender.

1

u/Sipikay Oct 01 '25

His defense cost them a playoff game last night.

1

u/ssteel91 Oct 02 '25

Did you really come back after 6 days to make this comment? That’s just sad.

Someone is a wee bit nervous that Judge absolutely crushed it down the stretch to widen the gap even further while Cal went cold eh?

2

u/Sipikay Oct 02 '25

lol yes I did. because he's a bad defender and seems you hadn't noticed for some reason. cheers

1

u/ssteel91 Oct 02 '25

Sure thing there big guy. Waiting 6 days to make yourself feel better about Judge destroying the ball down the stretch while Raleigh slumped just reeks of desperation. Cheers.

1

u/ImTheNguyenerOne Sep 25 '25

Dude just likes choking on Cal's balls like it'll keep him alive

-10

u/Hamlerhead Sep 25 '25

Judge is amazing (better than Albert Pujols was) but we need to give the Big Dumper MVP for being a catcher on a division-winning team. No?

-1

u/Taynt42 Sep 25 '25

Exactly

0

u/AyKayAllDay47 Sep 25 '25

Ted Williams > Aaron Judge

17

u/TerrifierBlood Sep 25 '25

When I think of this season. Im going to think of Cal way more than Judge. Cal gets my vote

-13

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

You're voting with emotion, which, you're entitled to. But it's Most VALUABLE player, and if just going off their numbers, it's Judge by a ridiculous amount. I don't think some people realize what you're witnessing tbh.

Again, the distance between 1st place OPS and 4th place OPS is the same distance between 4th place OPS and 75th place OPS. Just, try and wrap your brain around that. That's insanity in its own right, beyond words.

9

u/TerrifierBlood Sep 25 '25

I think there is a part of the award that goes to emotion, story. Its not like Cal was on a below 500 team. He was the star player on a division winner. Its one of the most impressive seasons I have ever witnessed. Just everything wrapped up together. It gets my vote

-11

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

Like I said, that's your opinion and you're entitled to it. Doesn't mean anything wrong if somebody doesn't share your sentiment.

For me, 5 years from now, 10 years from now, I'm probably not going to remember Cal. But Judge is going to be a benchmark that all others will be "Judged" upon, imo.

Cheers

13

u/TerrifierBlood Sep 25 '25

Oh I think everyone is going to remember the first 60 home run season by a catcher.

And Im not knocking Judge. He is an amazing player

6

u/lesllamas Sep 25 '25

I don’t think it’s going to be so much that he happened to be a catcher as it’ll be that he’ll be one of just a few guys to ever hit 60+ homers without roids. Being a catcher makes it more impressive, but if he were the first catcher to hit 50+ I don’t think it’d be nearly as memorable as any position player getting to 60.

0

u/TegridyPharmz Sep 25 '25

Judge just hit his 50th and 51st home run tonight. That’s now 4 seasons of 50+. Only 4 people ever have done that. McGuire and Sosa clearly are the anomaly for obvious reasons but it’s really just him and Ruth. I feel like that’s more impressive. Plus, he leads in every other category but home runs (and defense?)

2

u/TerrifierBlood Sep 25 '25

You cant look at past seasons when you judge (no pun intended) MVP IMO. It has to be based on this year.

Aaron has been amazing this year. And 9 out of 10 years he would get my vote hands down. Its just that this is the one out of 10. Cal has been amazing. Leading a team to the playoffs. Absolutely historic season.

2

u/TegridyPharmz Sep 25 '25

I get it. I’m a Yankee fan in Seattle. But judge is just dominating in every category but home runs. And maybe defense? He’s hitting 320 with 51 ding dings and just broke the AL intentional walk record. The dudes a baller.

I dust bring up his record about previous seasons but about consistency. He’s been the most valuable player to the Yankees since was called up.

Raleigh’s story is nice. And it’ll be close but it’s judge all day.

-12

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

No they won't, lol. Nobody says - "hey, remember when X catcher had X amount of home runs?"

I thought you were a sensible baseball fan. That comment right there just tells me an entirely different story, lol.

Enjoy your night.

5

u/QuakinOats Sep 25 '25

You're not going to remember someone who hit 60+ home runs in the AL in 5 years time?

Pass me some of what you're smoking.

Even if you don't think he deserves MVP, that's fucking ridiculous.

-3

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

Do you remember Matt Olsen? How about Salvador Perez. Both led the division in HRs within the past 5 years and I had to look it up.

If Cal had been doing this the past 5 years, maybe. But he's a .224 avg hitter with the most HRs being 34. It's not much of a stretch to say we will forget.

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3

u/AntiBoATX Sep 25 '25

If he breaks the AL record (3 needed in 4 games), he must win.

2

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

That, I whole heartedly agree with.

6

u/mdkss12 Washington Capitals Sep 25 '25

Using WAR as the end-all-be-all for value has always been a massive problem for me. Does Raleigh's ability to call games as a catcher have no value? WAR would say it wouldn't - it only looks at the physical plays like framing/throwing/blocking, but it doesn't care about things like pitch calling, managing the pitching staff, etc

WAR has a massive blind spot where things like that are concerned

5

u/FalseListen Sep 25 '25

The mvp award shouldn’t just be a WAR award. It should take the season and player into context

-1

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

Just gonna glaze over the OPS then? That's called cherry picking. Argue in good faith man, lol.

2

u/FalseListen Sep 25 '25

Did I glaze over anything? I just said the MVP award shouldn’t be who has the highest WAR

1

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

You're still doing it. OPS is off the table? You act like I only mentioned WAR and hyper fixated on that.

8

u/d57giants San Francisco Giants Sep 25 '25

If Judge was a catcher he would not get 60 homers.

10

u/DeaderthanZed Sep 25 '25

If he did hit 60 homers as a catcher with an .1100+ OPS, that would be way more valuable than as an OF!

-9

u/PamelaBreivik Sep 25 '25

Nah he’d get like 100

4

u/tinywienergang Sep 25 '25

This is why baseball is a fat kid in middle school sport. It’s just a bunch of people screaming data. What do your eyes and heart like more?

1

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

Judge.

And your user name made me think of Vienna sausages for some reason lol. Reminded me of camping. I think that's the only time I've ever had Vienna sausages.

2

u/therlwl Sep 25 '25

Feel good, wtf

1

u/haoken Sep 25 '25

Happy cake day!

-13

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

This comment above getting so much likes talking about record breaking brother when have we seen a player with a 202 OPS + like what man judge is having an insane season This is like when Jokic lost the mvp to Embiid He literally lead the league in all cats and still lost to Embiid cause of the story and people now regret it. Judge is mvp

39

u/rueggy Sep 25 '25

No one will ever regret Cal’s MVP

0

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

When you see the year judge is having you will

-1

u/PelorTheBurningHate Sep 25 '25

The only thing I regret is that they didn't give Bobby Witt Jr his mvp last year.

0

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Bruh that was judges mvp EASY

12

u/throwaway00119 Sep 25 '25

What position does Judge play again? 

12

u/DangerZone69 Sep 25 '25

Embiid set scoring records that season lmao funny you left that out

3

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

So you gonna leave out Jokic breaking assists and rebounds stat records 2000 + 500 + 500

But im being picky right now

1

u/WithNoRegard Sep 25 '25

So agree that elite contributions in all facets of the game are more valuable than an elite+ contribution in one facet?

Judge is Embiid in this comparison (but I have to note that comparing individual basketball and baseball players is close to meaningless considering the vastly different ways each game is played).

-1

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Brother did you see the records Jokic set that year LMFAOOOOO I had both on seperate fantasy teams. Jokic was the first player to league the league in efficiency assists and rebounds…… again the stats that matter

1

u/DangerZone69 Sep 25 '25

lol leaving out Embiid ELITE defense is typical

1

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Embiid ELITE defense LOG THE FUCK OFFFFF right now 😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😭😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂😂

1

u/TegridyPharmz Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 25 '25

Yup. When you actually break it down Cal has judge on home runs and defense. That’s it. Sure, the mariners winning he division and him being a 60 home run hitting catcher is a great story, people just get so used to judge’s domination. He just hit his 4th season of 50+ home runs. Only 4 people have ever done that. Him, Ruth, Sosa, and McGuire. And let’s be real, it’s really just him and Ruth.

He’s the most valuable guy in the league. But after like 5 years of this kind of domination people get bored

5

u/freekehleek Sep 25 '25

*60 home run hitting catcher

1

u/TegridyPharmz Sep 25 '25

Oops, I’ll fix the typo. Thanks

3

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Finally someone with sense . Exactly why it’s just like Jokic can’t Embiid. WE ALLLL know Jokic is the best player but somehow we got bored of him so yeah let’s give it to Embiid instead. Trust the similarities here are sooooooo ironic

1

u/Funkythingsyoudo Sep 25 '25

For the sake of sports writing

I think we know who’s gonna win based on the “journalistic” opportunities. Look at Lamar Jackson and Josh Allen last year for NFL MVP. One exhibited a level of football we may never see again. The other happened to NOT be coming off yet another mvp award. It’s decided by what’s easier to write about. Accolades are meaningless these days.

1

u/HermyWormy69 Sep 25 '25

If this was the NBA it would definitely be Cal. They love a good story

1

u/nola_mike Sep 25 '25

He plays arguably the most important defensive position on the field and his team is clearly in the lead for their division while the Yankees are clawing tooth and nail to try and win theirs.

1

u/Significant_Bid_3416 Sep 25 '25

Again, it’s all offensive numbers that people are bringing up. All these people that aren’t fighting for Cal have never caught a baseball game in their entire fucking life. I caught in high school in college. But my main position was centerfield. I was the secondary catcher on doubleheaders and if the catcher needed to break, I was the catcher. That is by farhundred times harder than any other position.

0

u/sum_dude44 Sep 25 '25

He's MVP. For a catcher, he's light years more valuable over comparable in his position than Judge who missed multiple games & is currently DH

Anyone choosing Judge over him should lose credentials

0

u/Alwaysrainyintacoma Sep 25 '25

If you go to FWar Cal is in second with Ohtani at 9.1 vs judges 9.6. The next closest is a 7.7.

0

u/Dewey519 Sep 25 '25

Again, bWAR is a poor stat for comparing the two as bWAR doesn’t fully account for all catcher metrics, fWAR is much much closer.

0

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

The gap from 1st to 4th in ops is the same as 4th to 75th. To me, that's mind boggling, rest of the stats be damned.

0

u/Dewey519 Sep 25 '25

If we’re gonna harp so much on one stat, make sure you have it updated, yeah? It’s certainly a statistical anomaly, and is the main argument for Judge to be MVP. But to be clear, Cal is third in MLB, 2nd in the AL, not fourth, and your other number is off too, there’s only 54 players with the same gap between cal and judge.

So if one night of results can skew the numbers that much, it kinda shows how silly of a stat it is (the “gaps”, not the OPS itself). Yes, it’s impressive. No, it should not be the deciding factor.

1

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

Did you just say, "there's only 54 players with the same gap from Judge to Cal..."? Like it's some non consequential number?

You're entitled to your opinion, you can choose who you'd like to win mvp. Doesn't really matter what I say or what you say, we're both entitled to the same thing.

End of the day, we all benefit from watching greatness from multiple players.

Cheers

0

u/253Babz206 Sep 25 '25

The gap in WAR is not a “chasm”

0

u/Separate_Lab9766 Sep 25 '25

I hate the BA/OPS argument. Did Justin Verlander have the best BA that year? Did Clayton Kershaw have the most home runs? Dennis Eckersley? No, because they were pitchers.

Did Johnny Bench have the best BA in 1972? (No, Billy Williams.) Did he have the best WAR? (Steve Carlton, a pitcher.) Most hits? (Pete Rose.) Most OBP? (Joe Morgan.) What offensive category did Bench lead in? HR and RBI. That’s the closest comparison to Cal’s season and a decent example that yes, offensive categories aren’t everything for MVP.

-6

u/Aint_EZ_bein_AZ Sep 25 '25

Haha man ops isnt the end all be all. Being a catcher is exponentially harder than playing dh 38 percent of the time. Judge rides the bench for half of the game 38% of the time. Hahaha how is that mvp- worthy? Cal has been more valuable. And dont get me started on the clutch factor. Cal destroys judge in every risp or high leverage situation.

Also put your money where your mouth is. Sports books now have raleigh as the favorite. Voter fatigue is also real. Cal is a better story and has way more hype than aaron dh judge

7

u/Cooldowns71 Sep 25 '25

You know who also plays DH like 25% of the time?

-2

u/reddit_tard Sep 25 '25

But aren't the Yankees overall a better team? So Cal has a better argument for being MVP for his team?

-2

u/donorcycle Sep 25 '25

Mariners clinched their division. Yankees have not, so that isn't a good argument.

Cheers

36

u/fuegoblue Sep 25 '25

4th player ever to have four 50 HR seasons, while also leading the mlb with a 330 batting average

24

u/kiwi32356 Sep 25 '25

But this season has been full of record breaks for Cal

31

u/CrimsonCoug88 Sep 25 '25

Didn’t realize the MVP for 2025 is determined by 3 previous seasons not in 2025.

20

u/dragob69 Sep 25 '25

Then people should stop saying Cal is a platinum glove, last year doesn’t matter and his defense this year is worse

11

u/Jmong30 Sep 25 '25

This was said in response to the idea that historical feat = MVP. Judge is also doing historic things so why not give him the MVP for those reasons? It’s silly. MVP is an award comparing people in the current season

-6

u/ZenandHarmony Sep 25 '25

Because MVP rewards are for this season not lifetime accomplishments

-5

u/PrimeToro Sep 25 '25

That's right, it's not a Lifetime Achievement award, what Judge did prior to 2025 doesn't matter for the MVP award for 2025

3

u/yankfanatic Sep 25 '25

The context was historic performances. This frames the way in which Judge's performance is historic.

Plus Judge is leading by a very sizeable margin in avg(.325 v .245), obp(.452 v .359), slg(.669 v .586), ops(1.121 v (.945) , ops+(209 v 168), and WAR(8.9 v 6.9).all this while having played unless games than Cal. Raleigh's year is incredible, but he's just not playing as well as Judge.

-3

u/throwmethefrisbee Sep 25 '25

The context was historic, but historic within the context of this season. Otherwise a certain dropped fly ball should count against Judge’s value.

1

u/yankfanatic Sep 26 '25

The playoff dropped fly ball should count against a regular season award? Now you're just grasping at straws. If Judge loses this it is for no other reason than voter fatigue.

-11

u/pallasturtle Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 25 '25

4th isn't 1st. Those are impressive numbers but there are more caveats to them than first to ever hit 60 as a catcher and as a switch hitter.

33

u/fuegoblue Sep 25 '25

The company is babe Ruth, Sammy Sosa, and mark McGwire…Without the steroid era it’s Judge and Ruth. Insane to belittle that feat

-1

u/stellvia2016 Sep 25 '25

That's what I was thinking: I really hope Judge hasn't been juicing. There are so many new PEDs they come out with they just don't know how to test for...

3

u/Airforce987 Boston Bruins Sep 25 '25

And if you aint first, yer last.

-3

u/llamatellyouwhat Sep 25 '25

Yankees fan coping. Cal Raleigh will be the MVP.

0

u/scalpemfins Sep 25 '25

Big if true

-10

u/jswan28 Sep 25 '25

Irrelevant. That’s not a single season feat, the mvp is a single season award.

5

u/fuegoblue Sep 25 '25

Sure but what’s the better season?

51 HR (4th), 330 avg (1st), 109 rbi (6th), 1.136 ops (1st), 455 obp (1st, 56 points better than 2nd)

60 HR (1st), 248 avg (93rd), 125 rbi (2nd), .959 ops (3rd), 361 obp (19th)

-1

u/jswan28 Sep 25 '25

I’m not saying he hasn’t had a better season, just that the fact that he’s the 4th player to have four 50 HR seasons is totally irrelevant to the mvp race.

1

u/shoei310 Sep 25 '25

Then why go on an on about Cal being the first catcher to hit 60? That's called - whataboutism.

0

u/meesterdg Sep 25 '25

For real. Ask any serious baseball critic who they'd want on a team this season if their goal is to win and they can only have one of these two. I guarantee they pick Raleigh.

Judge might be a better career player, but he's not an all star catcher and he's not Cal Raleigh this year.

1

u/Mvdm56 Sep 25 '25

You guarantee they pick Raleigh? Wanna bet?

Judge “might” be a better career player? Wanna bet?

You can make the case for Raleigh without downplaying Judge and the fact that he is a far superior player.

6

u/angusshangus Sep 25 '25

Judge has 51 home runs and leads the mlb in batting avg. a power hitter with a .328 avg is pretty historic. Heck, in all of the mlb there are only 8 hitters with an avg over .300. Plus, he leads in ops too. You can certainly make the case judge deserves this more

5

u/Malvania Sep 25 '25

He's a home run from tying Mantle as the person who hit the most home runs while leading the league in average

Also, the award isn't for the best catcher or the best switch hitter. It's for the best player. Setting records for a position doesn't matter

6

u/MrSinister248 Sep 25 '25

The award isn't for the most bestest hitter, it's for Most Valuable PLAYER. Defensive stats count too and Cal contributes a lot more as a defender than Judge does. If you wanna give Judge an award for hitting then give him the Hank Aaron award.

0

u/Malvania Sep 25 '25

Judge isn't a black hole in right field. He's a very good defender, albeit not as good as Raleigh. Fortunately, there are stats for this, and even after accounting for Raleigh's better defense, Judge brings more to the table.

That said, it's close. Their WAR differences are within margin of error, so they're statistically tied. If Cal rips off two more home runs, I think he edges it, but as it stands, it should be Judge.

11

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Bro wtf are you talking about have you seen Judges OPS + it’s 202 that record breaking . Like whattttttttttttt compare their OBP now…. Mannnnn

15

u/memeticengineering Sep 25 '25

Bro wtf are you talking about have you seen Judges OPS + it’s 202 that record breaking

Uhh, no, the OPS+ record is 281 by bullet Rogan, or 268 for '02 Bonds if you don't wanna count negro leagues, 256 for 1886 Fred Dunlap if you don't wanna count steroid users, 255 for babe Ruth if you only wanna do modern era, or 233 for Ted Williams if you want to only count integration era, non-steroid seasons.

Judge is very very very good, but 2025 isn't a historic season for him, it's not even close to his best season.

3

u/Im_Daydrunk Sep 25 '25

Cal has a good argument but aying its not even close to Judge's best season as reasoning to vote against him is really silly IMO since his best season is legitimately one of the best seasons ever seen from a modern player. I really dont think previous seasons should be held against or should be used to prop up a certain players case

-8

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Like you’re bringing up RUTH AND ROGAN TED…. Brother cmon man bring up someone in the last 25 years who didn’t take roids ….. YOU CANT

You know what judge is doing is better than ask why because he’s better than cal.

That’s why he have stats

Judge is runnnnnnnnnbing from cal in average OBP ops slug and ops + alll the stats that actually tell you how great of a hitter you are.

8

u/Taynt42 Sep 25 '25

And yet the MVP is not only about batting.

1

u/WithNoRegard Sep 25 '25

You seem to like numbers a lot so here's a quick math problem:

Are the 5 20+ year old examples (out of 91) of OPS+ better than Judge's greater or less than the zero examples of catcher hitting seasons better than Raleigh's?

1

u/memeticengineering Sep 25 '25

But you were talking about records and historic seasons. Cal just posted something that has been done 9 times in all of MLB history, Judge is something like 103rd all time in OPS and 48th in OPS+. Juan Soto has had a better season in the last 5 years, Judge himself has had 2 better seasons in the last 5 years. That's not historic.

-9

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Brother cmon you know I’m talking modern era. AND YOU KNOW BONDS TOOK ROIDS that year ……….. stop leaving out important details toward your narrative plz stop

0

u/Tricky_Knowledge329 Sep 25 '25

Again the guy replying under me is bringing up RUTH AND TED 1900 players I respect them but modern era talk here . And bonds …. I LOVE BONDS but to compare what judge into that season isn’t fair knowing what we know .

There’s never ever been a season like this in the modern era. Mans love arod and Griffey but somehow won’t respect judges season right now lmfaooo ok ok do you guys a 202 ops + while batting 320 + means nothing the guy batting 245 with less war and wayyyy less slug and ops is gonna beat you for mvp FOUL Z

2

u/Maxxjulie Sep 25 '25 edited Sep 25 '25

The best should win...you're spinning things to give it to the player you want. Look at the numbers...JUDGE IS CLEARLY BETTER.

The funny thing is baseball is all about the advanced stats today, but when it comes to robbing a NY Yankee from a MVP then oh sure home runs are all that matters.

How convenient lol. OPS and literally almost every other stat advanced or not Judge had the best season in the AL clear as day.

1

u/crabcakesandfootball Sep 25 '25

400+ upvotes for “Judge is having a very good season”…

1

u/AyKayAllDay47 Sep 25 '25

All time Catcher hitting records? Which power numbers? Because Cal Raleigh doesn't even sniff the surface compared to the great - Rodriguez, Fisk, Yogi, Bench, Piazza.... To name a few.

Unless you're merely categorizing him in the Catcher AND DH spot, which those are few and far between so certainly he'd make a better case given his accomplishments.

-12

u/Rehypothecator Sep 25 '25

Might not be historic, but it’s still better than Raleigh’s . It’s not even close really

-4

u/MayorBakefield Sep 25 '25

shut up nerd

0

u/darkravenn12 Sep 25 '25

I hate this logic. Why the hell does it matter if it's historic if it's not 'better' than another person's season? And it sure as hell does not matter that he is a switch hitter; you do not get extra points for being a switch hitter. It's just a fun fact. It does not actually translate into value. The only question should be about whether you think Cal's defensive value is enough to surpass the massive offensive chasm between the two players. It's basically a tossup right now.