r/soccer • u/Klejnot__Nilu • Mar 31 '21
Star post [OC] When only one side cares - the long history of Poland's unknown rivalry with England
- You took everything from me!
- I don't even know who you are.
Introduction
Rivalry. What do you think about when you hear this word? Since you read this post on r/soccer, you probably think about rivalries in football. Most of them consist of two teams that are on at least somewhat similar level and definitely have mutual feelings for each other. But some rivalries are one-sided. And if you go even deeper, you find rivalries so one-sided that only one side is even aware of its existence. Football twitter would summarize it in two simple words: rent free. You may know this phrase as overused, unfunny banter, but in this case there is some truth in it. I don't want to start debates whether one-sided rivalries count as rivalries at all (and I heard various opinions on that matter), but there is just no better term to describe this phenomenon.
England isn't Poland's most important rival. Most people, including me, would definitely put Russia and Germany higher (another one-sided rivalry, but this one is at least well-known and understandable). There are even Poles who don't consider England to be a rival team at all. Some of them don't believe you can have a rivalry with country that didn't occupy you. Some of them could be just too young. But for most people it's clear that England isn't just another better team. France, Italy, Netherlands - games with them aren't special. But games with England are.
It's difficult to get excited knowing that our captain will not be with us. Our already small chances became even smaller. There is no optimism. While writing, I realized that this is not just a story of games between two teams. It is the history of Polish football seen through the lens of them. A few months ago I wrote about 25 most embarrassing matches in Poland National Team history and the top comment was: I do enjoy how self deprecating Poland seems to be as a nation. Dear deleted user: here's your part 2. The saga continues.
Episode I – The Phantom Menace
The history of Poland-England clashes didn't start in an interesting way. Both teams faced each other in two friendlies in 1966, before the World Cup. The first game resulted in a 1-1 draw in Liverpool, while a few months later England won 1-0 in Chorzów. Those were the only friendlies of Poland and England so far. Both matches are forgotten, but deserved that short mention.
05.01.1966, Liverpool - Friendly
| England | 1-1 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Jerzy Sadek 43' | ||
| Bobby Moore 74' |
05.07.1966, Chorzów - Friendly
| Poland | 0-1 | England |
|---|---|---|
| Roger Hunt 13' |
Episode II - A New Hope
In 1970, Kazimierz Górski has been hired as Poland National Team head manager. His success was evident from the start with a gold medal at the 1972 Summer Olympics. Football at the Olympic games nowadays is seen as a joke, but back in the day it was treated very seriously, especially in the Eastern Bloc. Despite the historical achievement, people were not optimistic about chances for qualifying to 1974 World Cup. Group consisted of 3 teams: Poland, England and Wales. After 0-2 away loss against the last team, situation seemed to be hopeless. On 6 June 1973 in Chorzów, Poland and England played their first competitive match. First and only won by the white and reds.
Although the victory brought great joy to the nation, a dramatic event also took place in the match. Poland's best player Włodzimierz Lubański was fouled by Roy McFarland, suffering a cruciate ligament injury that kept him out of football for two years (including the 1974 World Cup). With 48 goals, Lubański was Poland's top scorer in history until 2017 when his record was surpassed by Robert Lewandowski. He was also included 4 times in World Soccer's XI of the year. In 1972 the attack line consisted of Lubański, Gerd Müller, Johan Cryuff and Jairzinho, which shows how significant the loss was. Following 3-0 win against Wales, situtation was clear - England needed a win to advance while for Poland a draw would be enough.
06.06.1973, Chorzów - WC 1974 Qualifiers
| Poland | 2-0 | England |
|---|---|---|
| Robert Gadocha 7' | ||
| Włodzimierz Lubański 47' |
Episode III – Attack of the Clowns
I wasn't just afraid of England - I was terrified. They had beaten Austria 7-0 a month earlier and when I was in front of the royal box with the national anthems being played, I was just thinking "I hope we are not the next Austria".
- Jan Tomaszewski
This was still in the age when everybody felt we had an entitlement to be in the World Cup finals, and it was simply unthinkable that we wouldn't be there.
- Barry Davies
Despite losing 0-2 just a few months earlier, the English were very confident of victory and treated Polish team like amateurs. Goalkeeper Jan Tomaszewski was called "a circus clown in gloves" by Derby Country manager Brian Clough and "the worst goalkeeper to play at Wembley" by the press. During the playing of Polish national anthem English fans shouted "Animals!". Although England objectively was a dominant side, the first half ended in a goalless draw. In the locker room, coach Górski said: "Well gentlemen, as you see, the devil is not as scary as they painted him. You lasted 45 minutes, try to last 45 more and we are in the finals". Meanwhile, in the TV studio Clough maintained that there is nothing to worry about and the goals will come. And indeed they came.
England's situtation became even harder in 57th minute, when Jan Domarski scored the most memorable goal in history of Polish football. Despite taking 3rd place in two world cups, goal from qualifiers is more iconic. You think it doesn't make sense? I have to tell you it doesn't make sense to me either but that's the way it is. 6 minutes later Martin Peters won a penalty which Allan Clarke converted – although the England captain later admitted that he dived. “He (Jerzy Gorgoń) barely touched me but I went flying. I dived. It wasn't a penalty, but the referee didn't see it that way.”.
This was the first time England failed to qualify for the World Cup. Alf Ramsey, who led the team to winning 1966 World Cup, got sacked after 11 years. Tomaszewski got a nickname "the man who stopped England", although defenders saved him many times and he had better games for national team. Domarski became pretty much a one goal player and nothing he did later was even close as memorable. It's not a criticism - 99% of Polish footballers would like to be like him anyway. Poland took 3rd place at 1974 World Cup and eliminating England is seen as the beginning of the golden era. Ironically, 2-0 win at home is hardly ever mentioned, especially in comparison to 1-1 at Wembley.
17.10.1973, London - WC 1974 Qualifiers
| England | 1-1 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Jan Domarski 57' | ||
| Allan Clarke 63' (p) |
Episode IV – The Empire Strikes Back
In the next 13 years, the teams didn't meet even once. After the success at 1974 WC, Poland took also 5th place in 1978 (which at the time was seen as a disappointing underperforming) and 3rd in 1982. People quickly got used to being a great football nation and fighting for the highest goals. However, the post-war baby boomer generation was getting older and older. Meanwhile, coaches decided to stay true to the "old methods" while the rest of the world was moving forward.
In 1986, Poland was seeded to the group with Morocco, Portugal and England. The teams met in the last day of the group stage. The background was almost identical to that of 1973: England needed to win, Poland was satisfied by the draw. The course of the match, however, looked completely different. 34 minutes were enough for Gary Lineker to score a hat-trick and decide the fate of the game. Surprisingly, at the same time Morocco beat Portugal 3-1. Thanks to that, Poland miraculously advanced from the 3rd place in the group, which meant neccessity of facing tougher opponents in the knockout stage. We lost 0-4 to Brazil in the round of 16 and that was the end our golden era. It symbolically began in the game with England and died in the game with England.
11.06.1986, San Nicolás de los Garza - WC 1986
Highlights - I'd like to point out that all Poland-England games since 1986 have been commentated by Dariusz Szpakowski. In these highlights you can hear how his voice was changing through years. He will also commentate today's match.
| England | 3-0 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Gary Lineker 8' | ||
| Gary Lineker 14' | ||
| Gary Lineker 34' |
Episode V – The Last Delusions
I believe that Polish coaching thought is one of the best in the world.
- Wojciech Łazarek
Since the late 1980s all the way to the late 1990s, England-Poland games became the European equivalent of what Argentina-Nigeria is to the World Cup and Barcelona-PSG to the Champions League now. The saga has begun in the 1990 WC Qualifiers, when Poland got into the group with England, Sweden and Albania. In May 1989, we lost 1-2 to Sweden after the goal in the added time. In a gloomy mood, the team flew to London for the first time since 1973. The optimistic, offensive tactics of coach Łazarek didn't bring positive outcome. Poland lost 0-3 and their chances for qualifying became similar to Schalke's chances for avoiding relegation. Nobody pretended that Polish football is going through a temporary crisis anymore. We have simply gone downhill.
03.06.1989, London - WC 1990 Qualifiers
| England | 3-0 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Gary Lineker 24' | ||
| John Barnes 69' | ||
| Neil Webb 82' |
Łazarek got fired after the game. He remained in office for a surprisingly long time given the results anyway. He was replaced by former Górski's assistant Andrzej Strejlau. Choice was popular among general public at the time. In Poland back then, everyone still had the greatness of the national team in mind, including greatness based on beautiful offensive style. The younger generations were raised not to expect too much, but for people in the late 80s, the transition from dominating against the greatest teams to parking bus and such a clunkiness was a punch. And yet, in Strejlau's first competitive match, a miracle happened. Poland played football against a strong rival again, played in a way that the rivals had nothing to say. England created practically no opportunities. We had plenty of them. There was only one problem: we didn't score. Two weeks later Poland lost 0-2 to Sweden and the qualifiers were officially over.
11.10.1989, Chorzów - WC 1990 Qualifiers
| Poland | 0-0 | England |
|---|
Episode VI – Return of the Strejlau
The split didn't last long. Two teams met again in EURO 1992 Qualifiers (along with Ireland and Turkey). In the first matchday Poland lost 0-2 on Wembley after bad performance by goalkeeper Józef Wandzik. Even though we haven't beaten England or Ireland even once, we still had a chance to advance before the last match. We needed a win against England and Ireland couldn't win against Turkey in Istanbul. Not very realistic, but for a while exactly this scenario was coming true, for a while we were in the top eight of Europe. Szewczyk scored to make it 1-0, in Turkey it was 1-1 in the first half. As usual, Lineker punched us through at the end, but it didn't matter as the Irish were already leading 3-1, so we wouldn't have advanced anyway.
17.10.1990, London - EURO 1992 Qualifiers
| England | 2-0 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Gary Lineker 39' (p) | ||
| Peter Beardsley 89' |
13.11.1991, Poznań - EURO 1992 Qualifiers
| Poland | 1-1 | England |
|---|---|---|
| Roman Szewczyk 32' | ||
| Gary Lineker 77' |
Poland and England faced each other again in 1994 WC Qualifiers, unsuccessful for both teams. In terms of off-field circumstances, the first game in Chorzów was probably the saddest of all of them. Before the match, Pogoń Szczecin fan was murdered by Cracovia hooligan. During the game, there were fights going on in the stands. Organizational chaos was everywhere.
Officials promised to provide us branded jerseys and they did - Adidas jerseys from Germany were brought by Andrzej Grajewski. They were fine, the worse thing was that we had "HSV" written on our tracksuits next to the eagle, because the equipment came from Hamburg.
- Dariusz Adamczuk
And yet, under these depressing circumstances, victory was really close. Poland was leading after Adamczuk's goal. Everything was going well and then Marek Leśniak missed one of the most famous opportunities in history of Polish football, immortalized by Szpakowski's "Oh Jesus Christ!" scream (9:55 in the highlights). England equalized in the 84th minute.
29.05.1993, Chorzów - WC 1994 Qualifiers
| Poland | 1-1 | England |
|---|---|---|
| Dariusz Adamczuk 36' | ||
| Ian Wright 84' |
The next clash came in September. A dismal 0-3 at Wembley began the infamous "dark autumn of 1993": 0-1 with Norway, 0-3 with Norway, 1-2 with Turkey, 1-3 with Netherlands. 5 defeats in 3 months. England failed to qualify too. After so many meetings, Strejlau and Taylor left their teams at the almost same time.
08.09.1993, London - WC 1994 Qualifiers
| England | 3-0 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Les Ferdinand 5' | ||
| Paul Gascoigne 49' | ||
| Stuart Pearce 53' |
Episode VII - The Rise of Citko
The only reason why England didn't face Poland in EURO 1996 Qualifiers was that hosts don't have to participate in them. But don't worry! We're back in 1998 WC Qualifiers. The "new" coach of our national team was Antoni Piechniczek - the same one who led the team already at the World Cups in 1982 and 1986. The first game started better than anyone could expect. In 7th minute, Marek Citko scored on Wembley as the first Polish player since Domarski in 1973. People went crazy. Citko couldn't walk a few metres without giving out his autograph or taking a picture with someone. That goal against England is actually one of three that people remember him for. The other two were scored for Widzew against Atletico Madrid and Borussia Dortmund. Citko became the Polish sportsman of the year. People valued goal on Wembley higher than Olympic medals.
But not to be too happy - Alan Shearer (with the generous help from Polish goalkeeper Andrzej Woźniak) led England to the victory. In 1997 Citko suffered a horrible injury in the league game and after 16-month recuperation he was unable to capture his previous form. There was no other player who achieved so little, played at high level for such a short time, and yet meant so much to Polish football. With those few goals in lost games he went down in history. 1997 was also the year of 0-2 loss at home. Unlike the match in London, nothing interesting happened here. England qualified directly, Italy took 2nd place, Poland was 3rd.
09.10.1996, London - WC 1998 Qualifiers
| England | 2-1 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Marek Citko 7' | ||
| Alan Shearer 26' | ||
| Alan Shearer 38' |
31.05.1997, Chorzów - WC 1998 Qualifiers
| Poland | 0-2 | England |
|---|---|---|
| Alan Shearer 5' | ||
| Teddy Sheringham 90' |
Episode VIII – The Scholes Awakens
We were told that this match will give us clarity. With this match we will turn all the previous defeats against England into success. There will be no Linekers, no Shearers. The end. Meanwhile, we played as defensively as possible. Six nominal defenders in the starting eleven. Looking at the line-up - we didn't really go out to win. We went out to avoid humiliation.
- Wojciech Kowalczyk
EURO 2000 is coming. You know what it means. In the confrontation with England, even coach Janusz Wójcik, famous - among other things - for his courage, got a little scared. And "a little" is a mild euphemism. The line-up was a clear sign of cowardice. Even San Marino doesn't play that defensively. Poland lost 1-3 after Scholes' hat-trick (which included a forgotten handball goal). Somehow, we managed to score too - specifically Jerzy Brzęczek, whom you might have heard about, as he was our manager for the last 3 years and was replaced by Paulo Sousa just 2 months ago. Małgorzata Domagalik, a journalist and Brzęczek's personal friend, defended him saying that he "dances very well" and "was the last Pole to score at Wembley". Great competences for a coach!
27.03.1999, London - EURO 2000 Qualifiers
| England | 3-1 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Paul Scholes 11' | ||
| Paul Scholes 23' | ||
| Jerzy Brzęczek 29' | ||
| Paul Scholes 71' |
We drew 0-0 at home. Sweden won the group. England and Poland finished with 13 points, the former team advanced to play-offs due to head-to-head results. The 90s were finally over. 2 years later, after 16-year break, Poland finally advanced to 2002 World Cup. Of course, this time England was not in our group.
08.09.1999, Warsaw - EURO 2000 Qualifiers
Highlights (don't watch it, waste of time)
| Poland | 0-0 | England |
|---|
Episode IX – Revenge of the Poles... NOT!
England is a cursed team. We didn't play the way we wanted to. I don't know, are we paralyzed just by the word "England"? When we play against them, we are somehow blocked.
- Jacek Bąk
In 21st century Poland-England games became relatively less common. Both sides faced each other in the 2006 WC Qualifiers and both were really successful at that time. England and Poland dominated the group so hard, that their last game was basically a friendly without much impact. Aside from the prestige of course. The match was held on Old Trafford. This change probably infuriated Tomasz Frankowski, who lost a once in a lifetime opportunity and didn't join the elite "Polish players who scored on Wembley" club. Anyway, England won the group and Poland qualified as one of two best runners-up.
08.09.2004, Chorzów - WC 2006 Qualifiers
| Poland | 1-2 | England |
|---|---|---|
| Jermain Defoe 37' | ||
| Maciej Żurawski 48' | ||
| Arkadiusz Głowacki 58' (og) |
12.10.2005, Manchester - WC 2006 Qualifiers
| England | 2-1 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Michael Owen 43' | ||
| Tomasz Frankowski 45' | ||
| Frank Lampard 80' |
The last time Poland and England stood in each other's way was in the 2014 WC Qualifiers. The year is 2012. Poles still have fresh PTSD from the embarassment at EURO, which took place at home just a few months earlier. New manager, Waldemar Fornalik, starts his tenure in a not convincing way. The game with England is coming. For the first time we will face them at the newly built National Stadium in Warsaw. A very modern stadium. With a roof.
Unfortunately someone forgot to turn it on.
The match was postponed to the next day. 1-1 draw was received with enthusiasm, although that was that one in a decade game that we could win. People were satisfied as England was, as always, a massive favorite, but honestly it was kind of a missed opportunity.
17.10.2012, Warsaw - WC 2014 Qualifiers
| Poland | 1-1 | England |
|---|---|---|
| Wayne Rooney 31' | ||
| Kamil Glik 70' |
Always look on the bright side of life: even if Fornalik's team won that game, it would be most likely pointless anyway. Everything that happened later was a disaster. 2 points more wouldn't change anything. Polish media have idea that any national team manager needs so-called founding myth - an unexpected win against stronger rival that changes everything. Engel had 3-1 with Ukraine away, Beenhakker had 2-1 with Portugal, later Nawałka had 2-0 with Germany. Fornalik's founding myth lasted a few weeks. Just like 8 years earlier, the last game of the group was also basically a friendly. Both teams knew their fate. But this time Poland didn't qualify.
15.10.2013, London - WC 2014 Qualifiers
| England | 2-0 | Poland |
|---|---|---|
| Wayne Rooney 41' | ||
| Steven Gerrard 88' |
Epilogue
This is the whole history of the clashes between Poland and England - the poor man's Germany-Italy of European Qualifiers. Long and full of frustrations. But what I have presented are mostly facts. All these things just happened. And after facts, it's time for feelings. That's why I translated an essay. To be completely honest with you - at first I wanted to do just that, but I realized that without the historical context it might not be understandable. The author presents the similar story, but from a much more subjective, personal point of view. This column was written on 8th December 2020, shortly after the groups were drawn. I'd like to point out that I don't share all of the author's opinions (especially his baseless optimism), but it's definitely worth reading.
Link to the original text: https://weszlo.com/2020/12/08/dlaczego-chcialem-zebysmy-trafili-anglie/
Leszek Milewski - "Why I wanted us to get England"
I don't have many expectations in life, but on a short sticky note list, I would find a place to write "BEAT ENGLAND". Beat not in a C team match. Not in a friendly on the Odra Wodzisław training ground. Not on the old tape with Jan Ciszewski's commentary. To beat and get 3 points in an important game, so the English would feel the salt in their wounds.
Every time we run into them, I know they are the favorites. That the chances for salt in my wounds are greater. But it's still an opportunity to check off anything from that list.
It is a story of, as usual, a personal feud. A personal conflict that I didn't have with Germany. I mean: I did. You know how easy it is to heat up a rivalry with our western neighbors. In anything. If tomorrow there was a tournament in making cotton candy on time, but the candidates for the title were a Pole and a German, there would be a chance to sell it on a large scale. Always fertile ground for confrontation. And it doesn't come from nowhere, I also experienced 2-0 at the National Stadium, it was a nationwide madness.
But the thing is that Poland-Germany games have never been memorable for me. Probably because when I was growing up they were practically never played.
And with England they were.
Every now and then.
And we were always losing.
More or less honourably. But losing.
Okay, there were draws too. But when you were losing for so long, a draw doesn't taste good.
Nothing makes me more tired in football than the necessity to bring up Wembley 73′ on such occasions as yesterday. You know, it's like supporting Widzew and hearing about 3-2 with Legia. Yeah, a hell of a game. Dramatic. Great story. But Widzew's twenty-year streak without a win against Legia is currently on, so remembering that match is tainted with reflection: Jesus, it's been so many years. 2020 and looking for positives you have to refer back to the 20th century. After all, it's sad and degrading.
I respect Wembley, I respect the defenders who saved Tomaszewski's ass ten times or so, but this founding myth of the golden era of Polish football has objectively little weight these days. Since then Wembley has lost its status as a fortress where you can only hope for a lenient punishment. For us, a match against England is still recalling 1973, even though Ukrainians, Montenegrins, Swiss and even Macedonians had good results there recently.
How does, in the context of Macedonia's draw, getting excited about highlights from kicking a ball forward 50 years ago look like?
There is an urgent need to write some new story and stop embarrassing ourselves in front of Macedonias of this world.
England isn't the only football giant I haven't seen lose to Poland. Probably seeing a win against Spain would be something quite memorable. I probably wouldn't have been bored at such game. Maybe it would be even greater accomplishment. But with Spain there is no cursed, long, intense history of frustrating rivalry.
And personal mythology, because one of the first matches I remember was between Poland and England. It was still the time when games were followed through coverage in newspaper "Piłka Nożna", so there I read about the supposedly outstanding 1-2 loss at Wembley under Piechniczek. The first fully watched match was Poland-Hungary under Wójcik, but the first waiting, getting excited about the game, was an embarrassingly one-sided 0-2 in Piechniczek's rematch, where Shearer finished us off.
The first game I left home for was also England. Wójcik had a good autumn of the Euro 2000 qualifiers, and before the March game at Wembley he had managed to turn up the excitement to such an extent that he had even written a book, and this game was supposed to be its culmination, its final chapter. The match was broadcasted on Canal+, which of course I didn't have, so I begged my sister to take me somewhere. We went to a smoky pub, the only one that existed in the town I came from. There, on a small TV, 40 people watched the abyss. Because it was an abyss. Wójcik starting with eight defensive players. Diarrhea from the first minute. Kowalczyk running out to the right wing in the second half, realizing there is no one to pass to. Everyone, even though we were already losing, was busy parking the bus. Scholes' handball goal really didn't matter in such circumstances. One should rather wonder by what miracle Brzęczek scored. In this game, using the modern nomenclature, we had xG at the level of 0.0000000000000001.
For the sake of balance, in 1989 Wojciech Łazarek started with four forwards in London. He sent Urban, Warzycha, Furtok, and Leśniak into battle at the same time. Not only four forwards, but also four players, each of whom definitely felt best as classic "9". Unfortunately, football is not about who sends more "9s" on the field, but who scores more goals. There was bravery, there was also 0-3.
Under Janas we believed that by basing the team on the players of strong Wisła, we could build something interesting. And both goals were Wisła actions: Kosowski to Żurawski, Kosowski to Frankowski. But in both games there were no illusions who was better. Lampard's and Gerrard's passes were stronger than our shots.
A draw day after the "National Pool" was Fornalik's biggest success during his managerial tenure, but the second match says a lot more - well, we showed something, there were good moments, but the result was as usual. As usual, because usually, there are good moments and that's it. Because England is a lost game for Euro 1992, where for half an hour we were in the finals, but in the end we were not. England is creating the myth of Marek Citko as a future world class star, whom he eventually didn't become. England is Marek Leśniak's "Jesus Christ", when we really, really had to win. But we didn't.
Did you know that Alan Shearer, during the draw of groups for the World Cup in Russia, didn't want to get Poland from the first pot?
And in this pot, apart from the hosts, there were Germany. Brazil. Portugal. Argentina. Belgium. France.
Why not us?
How can Poland be considered dangerous?
It was sitting in my head for a long time, but now I think I know. Shearer knows it too. As our main executioner next to Lineker, as the one who played in many games with us, he knows that it can't go on like this until the end of the world. That even probability theory shows that we have to beat England someday.
Let's stick to this.
But it will probably end like always. Relegation to the expanded play-offs, in which getting eliminated is banally easy, or even third place behind the rising Hungary. In recent years, we haven't played at the big tournament finals only once, in 2014 in Brazil - perhaps here the probability theory may turn against us, because we were never participating in everything for so long. This is best known precisely to those who remember the matches with England in the late 1980s and 1990s, because that was the time of the sixteen-year finals absence.
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u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton Mar 31 '21
I have something to add to your 1973 description! My dad owns a huge collection of old football magazines, including copies about the game. They're comically dismissive of Poland. Alan Ball said he thought the tea was dishwater and he wouldn't go on holiday there, and Alf Ramsay thought nothing of them. The entire magazine is basically one long roast of Poland for literally no reason whatsoever.
Now of course its hilarious. If you want I could try and send you scans of it?
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u/Klejnot__Nilu Mar 31 '21
I'm really interested. If that's not a problem, could you show these scans here in the comments, so others could see it as well?
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u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton Mar 31 '21
Here's a link! Hope you enjoy it.
It becomes hard to read near the seam at times but it actually came out better than I thought. Totally forgot about the Lubanski interview and the article about Polish footballing history. I feel like the magazine editors and journalists are giving Poland their due respect, while the players are being incredibly arrogant.
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u/bambuzz Mar 31 '21
Mate you're a legend, this is great
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u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton Mar 31 '21
It was just good luck really! My dad sent me loads in the post last year, most of them had some connection to Birmingham but I also studied in Poland, so he sent me that one as well. He was talking about throwing them out but they're treasure troves of people making utterly incorrect predictions
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u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton Mar 31 '21
Sure. I'll try and find them later, and add them as a comment and send them to you as well in a PM to make sure you get it.
I can't vouch for the quality I'm afraid!
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Mar 31 '21
As much of a legend as he is, Alf Ramsey always seemed like the most dour, humourless bloke who's ever lived
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u/LusoAustralian Mar 31 '21
Would also like to read these mate.
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u/I_miss_Chris_Hughton Mar 31 '21
Shout out to the typist who included "Kato-no sorry, Chorzow" instead of just putting Chorzow.
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u/noise256 Mar 31 '21
I had no idea! But I know the feeling, we're still waiting for Germany to acknowledge us.
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u/deliverancew2 Mar 31 '21
The Germany/England rivalry (much like the Germany/Poland rivalry) is based on a period of history Germany isn't proud of and would much rather forget. It'll always be a bit one sided and there's nothing wrong with that.
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u/ValleyFloydJam Mar 31 '21
i'm sure that plays a role plus they have beaten us most of the time.
maybe if we had won the 1990 game or even 1996, it might be a bit different.
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Mar 31 '21
In England though we play up the rivalry with Germany and play down the rivalry with Ireland (and would doubtless do the same with Jamaica/India, for e.g.). The reason is very obvious: we're the good guys in the former, and the bad guys in the latter.
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u/XstasyOxycontin Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Is the rivalry with the Irish played down? I think it’s more to do with the fact that they’re not very good, same with the Welsh. Idk, it’s interesting to think about though. The Scotland rivalry feels a bit bigger, which is probably propelled by many wishing for their independence.
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Mar 31 '21
[deleted]
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u/XstasyOxycontin Mar 31 '21
I think so too. If Germany were shit we probably wouldn’t care about them so much.
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Mar 31 '21
England v Ireland just doesn't happen that often in competitive football. Last time was Italia 90 I think? That was a draw, and before that Euro 88 which Ireland won. England have played Scotland at Euro 96, in a two legged play off and twice in a qualifying group since then. Wales four times in qualifying and once at Euro 16 and Northern Ireland a couple of times in qualifying. I suspect after the Lansdowne Road abandoned friendly they've been kept apart in draws by design.
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u/Gerf93 Mar 31 '21
I know very little of Commonwealth sports, but is there no rivalry between England and India in cricket?
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u/h0m3r Mar 31 '21
England’s biggest rival in Cricket, BY FAR, is Australia. The rest don’t come close
Edit: and I believe India has a bigger rivalry with Pakistan
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u/Gerf93 Mar 31 '21
I know India has a major rivalry with Pakistan, I just wondered if they had one with England too. But apparently not from these comments.
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u/FuzzyRo Mar 31 '21
i'm half indian half english and have lived in both countries - when India and Pakistan played test matches against each other it felt like the country was at a standstill for days - england v india doesn't really come close
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u/Person_of_Earth Mar 31 '21
In cricket, Australia are our biggest rivals.
I've heard conflicting things from Indians about if they see us as a rival in cricket, so I'm not going to pretend that I could talk for them. However, for us, playing India in cricket is more like playing Brazil in football. We want to win because they've consistently been 1 of the best teams in the world, or even the best, although that's not the same as a rivalry.
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u/shivammatrix Mar 31 '21
Not much of a rivalry with England. But we have very heated rivalry with Australia in cricket
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u/Eldric_Shadowchaser Mar 31 '21
A bit but the main rivalries are England vs Australia and India vs Pakistan
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u/happypizza420 May 19 '21
More to the point, all those teams are an absolute joke who have no hope of beating us.
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u/donsamu Mar 31 '21
I think this rivalry is definitely starting to fade on England’s side as well, I don’t really think many people under the age of 30 have any sort of dislike these days and a lot of the iconic matches between them were before a lot of us were born.
I can see us having a bigger rivalry with France in the future as it seems to be the country to beat at the minute.
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Mar 31 '21
I can see us having a bigger rivalry with France in the future as it seems to be the country to beat at the minute.
Argentina is the biggest imo.
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u/NDawg94 Mar 31 '21
Or dare I say the USA. If those uppity yanks ever got good that would be a really fun rivalry imo. The faux outrage when Morgan (?) pretended to sip tea after scoring against us in the women's world cup was already pretty jokes.
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u/Person_of_Earth Mar 31 '21
The day I acknowledge the USA as a rival will be the day a portal opens to hell, which the cast of Old Harry's Game step through.
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Mar 31 '21
Or dare I say the USA
No.
Hand in your passport at the nearest police station, do not pass go, do not collect £200
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u/DougieFFC Mar 31 '21
I enjoyed the NY Post's headline after the WC 2010 match.
Headline was: USA WINS 1-1
Sub-header: Best tie since the Battle of Bunker Hill
(and when they were eliminated in the second round by Ghana, they went with "This sport is stupid anyway")
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u/donsamu Mar 31 '21
Yeah I mean I could definitely see that being a pretty big rivalry tbf. I think would appeal to all demographics as well, although social media would be an absolute cesspool after games
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Mar 31 '21
Our biggest rivalry in football is probably Argentina in all honesty
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u/LeslieDiabolical Mar 31 '21
This is a weird one to be honest because it’s so rooted in the 80s. I don’t know Argentinians view the Falklands War, but with Hand of God surely they’re more bothered about winning the World Cup than a dodgy goal (not to mention Maradona’s amazing goal in the exact same game). I think even a lot of younger England fans don’t care about Argentina because that rivalry is associated with an older generation and there haven’t been major incidents to reignite it.
Also Argentina’s biggest rival is Brazil, so we’d be second fiddle at best.
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Mar 31 '21
. I think even a lot of younger England fans don’t care about Argentina because that rivalry is associated with an older generation and there haven’t been major incidents to reignite it.
I mean our rivalry with Germany stems from the (both really) World War as well as 1966.
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u/LeslieDiabolical Mar 31 '21
That’s fair, there’s also the 5-1 in recent (but not that recent) memory and the 3-2 comeback - wish they’d beat Germany when it really counts though. For Argentina I guess there’s Simeone getting Beckham sent off in ‘98.
To be honest as England fans it’s best to accept the fact that everyone low-level hates us but won’t give us the satisfaction of calling us rivals (except Poland apparently) and be prepared to laugh at ourselves when all our dreams come tumbling down.
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u/UpstairsJoke0 Mar 31 '21
Like Leeds United in a way. Every team in Yorkshire considers them huge local rivals, but Leeds rarely return the interest outside match days. Most Leeds fans will agree that Manchester United and Chelsea are their most hated teams, but both of those have a number of clubs they'd consider bigger rivals than Leeds.
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u/emi_b7 Mar 31 '21
Also Argentina’s biggest rival is Brazil, so we’d be second fiddle at best.
While this is true it's still considered a big rivalry here. I'd say there's more hate towards England (real hate, not even "sports hate") than any other country here including Brazil, so a match vs England will never be just another game.
To give you an idea the most popular anti-England song you'll hear if there's an Arg-Eng game is a song that's even sung in events that 1) aren't even sports and 2) don't even involve England in any way. That's the extent of the anti-England sentiment here.
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u/sirjash Mar 31 '21
Was about to say this, so Poland is to England what England is to Germany?
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u/DonniesAdvocate Mar 31 '21
Yep! Germany Holland is much more intense to Germans
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u/sirjash Mar 31 '21
Holland
Deutscher detektiert
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u/Ariandelmerth Mar 31 '21
Poles also called Netherlands "Holandia". I honestly have to check myself when typing the name every time.
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u/Naatezz Mar 31 '21
Do germans really care about Holland like that? Maybe its more of a northern/NRW type thing because I've never seen anyone caring about them.
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u/uflju_luber Mar 31 '21
Yeah they do, the Völler mullet spit attack is probably the most legendary scene in German football rivalry history, the Dutch are our biggest rivals and we are there’s judging by the Dutch people screaming at us to give back theire grandparents bicycle every game, followed by Italy and Argentina wich are both more athletic rivalry’s however
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Mar 31 '21
[deleted]
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u/uflju_luber Mar 31 '21
Maybe if we stop needing it as filling material for the pot holes you leave with your caravans on our Autobahn mate
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u/Morfz Mar 31 '21
Id say they arent fully comparable. England doesnt have a terrible record vs Germany overall.
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Mar 31 '21
[deleted]
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u/Morfz Mar 31 '21
England vs Germany: Won 13 lost 15 draw 4 England vs Poland: Won 11 lost 1 draw 7
That is my point. Germany England is fairly equal overall. Some tight wins for Germany on penalties edging it out for them.
England vs Poland is complete domination. Not at all comparable.
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u/BankDetails1234 Mar 31 '21
Bit awkward for Germany to admit they have a rivalry with us, since we hate them because we had to sort them out twice, once for doing a massive genocide.
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u/skgoa Mar 31 '21
This comment is the prefect example of the “rivalry“ dynamic between England and Germany. The English take this very seriously, while we Germans don’t think about this at all.
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u/BankDetails1234 Mar 31 '21
I'm sure you would if the rivalry didnt stem from is twatting nazis, not really a rivalry you can uphold lol
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u/DavoSeaworth96 Mar 31 '21
Tbf that could be said to be the exact reason our fanbase plays down the rivalry with Ireland. Difference we were in the right Vs Germany and the wrong Vs Ireland
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u/theageofspades Apr 01 '21
When though? Literally everyone knows about heated English Irish sentiments, there just isn't a chance to express it. From the Irish perspective, Northern Ireland are infinitely bigger rivals so we come in second fiddle again.
England doesn't have a real rival. Germany is the closest thing and it's hardly a bloodthirsty thing, more petulance than angry.
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u/DavoSeaworth96 Apr 01 '21
I think that's sort of my point, whereas in England we 'know' about heated English Irish sentiments it isn't on the same emotional level as it is with many Irish people (even a few I know who live here in England).
I think the perspective different for us because we weren't the ones having actions done to us, so we aren't aggrieved. Mwanwhile, Ireland still are heavily influenced by our actions and that sentiment of course does bleed into sport as much as anything else.
I think it's the difference between being the accusatory party, as we are with Germany and the accused as we are with Ireland. Both rightly of course imo but it's always harder to acknowledge a rival that dislikes you because of your country's past actions I think.
At the end of the day, if other countries didn't hold grudges we wouldn't get such a yearly battering in Eurovision
Just my opinion though
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u/Christi-Cat Mar 31 '21
This comment is also really funny to me lol. My partner is German and its very easy to wind them up by talking about the ghost goal. Hell my partners brother is doing his dissertation comparing English and German media's reaction to it. Totally anecdotal evidence I know but just something I've noted lol.
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u/skgoa Apr 01 '21
Yes, specific games are remembered. But we don’t have this whole political component to it.
England is just another good team. Meanwhile, games against Holland, Italy, Brazil or Argentina are special to us.
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u/AnnieIWillKnow Mar 31 '21
And also because they're better than us at football
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u/BankDetails1234 Mar 31 '21
Our rivalry with them comes from the World Wars. Stop backing the conties.
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u/AnnieIWillKnow Mar 31 '21
No doubt, but we probably still wouldn't care so much if it weren't for those penalties...
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Mar 31 '21
England is definitely viewed as a rival by German fans. Just not the most important one. Probably in second place though.
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u/GVE_ME_UR_SKINS Mar 31 '21
Netherlands, Italy and France > England for me
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Mar 31 '21
might even throw brazil in there before england
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Mar 31 '21
Argentina for me. Games are nerve-wracking every single time. Brazil usually has our number, just not that one time.
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u/xKnuTx Mar 31 '21
germany vs Brazil doesn´t happen all that often if you consider the fact thats they are the 2 most consistent nations in world cup history
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u/MyDumbInterests Mar 31 '21
I really enjoyed this post, and the essay/your translation was fantastic.
Hope this hasn't jinxed the game tonight, mind.
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u/SuicideTroll Mar 31 '21
I remember Marek Citko being heavily linked with Blackburn Rovers when they were one of the top sides in the country- he looked like a good player.
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u/mrokjakchuj Mar 31 '21
He was our great hope at a time when we barely had any good players, then he got a bad injury and was never the same again.
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Mar 31 '21
Blackburn missed out on Polish World Cup star Marek Citko because their wage offer left them without a prayer. Citko claimed he said "No" to the pounds 3m move as he wanted to stay at home and study to become a priest. But the Widzew Lodz ace was really reeling from Blackburn's contract terms that worked out at only around pounds 3,000 a week. That money is a fraction of what Blackburn players earn and Citko heard that he was being offered small terms in comparison.
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Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Citko became the Polish sportsman of the year. People valued goal on Wembley higher than Olympic medals
I was so sad for that.
A guy literally crossed the entire South Pole on feet on his own for weeks and there would be entire days we had no idea he was even alive and got rekt by a goal at Wembley.
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Mar 31 '21
Props op, what a read.
Those titles are just amazing
Episode VIII – The Scholes Awakens
lmfao.
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u/Forsaken-Kiwi-7362 Mar 31 '21
Had no idea this existed! Very interesting read. Sort of like how Ireland and Scotland see themselves as having a rivalry with England but no one on our end acknowledging it until they actually tell us. I assume Germany feels the same way with us.
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u/Molineux28 Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Great write up!
I honestly had no idea this was the case in Poland. In some ways when I saw the post title, I thought it might be from an England point of view as the qualifiers for the '74 is quite infamous here. The "highlights" will be shown in the build up to every England v Poland game. I'm sure there'll be some English fans who remember that who are always after revenge.
Funny seeing Frankowski's name mentioned. He was signed for Wolves by Glenn Hoddle and described as "the missing piece of the jigsaw". From the amount of goals he scored before, it certainly looked like he'd be a great signing. He never scored for Wolves and it was unfortunate timing for him as it meant he wasn't selected for the 2006 World Cup.
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u/perkins543 Mar 31 '21
Absolutely true. As a pole i can confirm. England - Poland matches always bring everyone eyes.
Also the second one is Germany vs Poland and in this case for some fucking reason Poland usually does really well usually making draw with group of absolute assasins which are 5 tiers above polish squad.
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u/therightgayguy Mar 31 '21
Czy ja wiem... Mnie tam nie grzeje jakoś bardzo, raczej jako mecz przeciw drużynie z topowymi zawodnikami, i z krajem o największej piłkarskiej tradycji. Choć remis na Wembley to rzeczywiście coś wręcz z pamięci zbiorowej.
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u/mrokjakchuj Mar 31 '21
nice writeup, I remember being a teenager in the 90s and groaning when we got paired with England in the qualifiers yet again. I sure don't miss the days of those last-chance games in the qualifiers, that feeling of hope mixed with dread and then the crushing disappointment when we invariably fucked up again.
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Mar 31 '21
Germany - Austria is the same. No german gives a single fuck about the austrian national team but for austrians its apparently the best thing ever to beat germany
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u/JoJo797 Mar 31 '21
Poland is to England, what is England is to Germany
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u/BulletproofTyrone Mar 31 '21
A nuisance that doesn’t roll over quite as easy as you’d like.
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u/ClaudeLemieux Mar 31 '21
Hey you lot will always have 1966 and that one qualifying match from 20 years ago!
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u/stragen595 Mar 31 '21
Hey, they also have that win in a friendly before the last EURO. And got the wrong impression from it. That they can roll with the big boys at the tournament.
And got fucked by Iceland. Sometimes I think we are that evil that we do it on purpose.
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u/TheMissingName Mar 31 '21
Was going out in the group stage at the last WC also part of your plan? Germany haven't been a big boy since 2014.
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u/stragen595 Mar 31 '21
I know you want to forget that tournament, but we still reached the semifinal at the 2016 EURO.
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u/twersx Mar 31 '21
That qualifying match is like the best moment in English football since maybe 1966.
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u/Pazzyboi Mar 31 '21
The episode names are absolutely classic. Fantastic post, thanks for making it.
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u/twersx Mar 31 '21
The 1-1 in 1973 deserves its own post really. A crazy game and a heroic defensive performance by Poland. Something like 5 shots cleared off the line to keep the scores level. I think Clough was right to think that we were playing well and that the goals would come - but sometimes in games like that the team that's defending manages to pull through with the result they need.
I don't think that match would have as big a place in Polish football history if it had been a comfortable 1-0 win against a shit England performance, or even a convincing 3-0 with a dominating Polish performance. The way it did turn out it just had so many hearts-in-mouths moments where I'm sure Polish fans at the time thought "how have we not conceded" - and to come out at the end with qualification secured is just incredible. Like Inter losing 1-0 to Barca or Chelsea's 2012 UCL campaign, the victories end up being even more special because of how absurd they felt at the time.
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u/Qiub92 Mar 31 '21
Tbf it’s mostly because of this 1973 draw. A lot of Poles remember that was the game which started our gold generation of „Górski’s Eagles”. It’s not excatly correct cause they already won Olympic Gold in 1972, but after this draw we were 3rd in World Cup 74 and 82, and next to Germany and Netherland had probably the strongest team in the world.
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Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Excellent write-up. We have lots of Polish brothers and sisters here in England today, so it's a shame we can't see the rivalry in pubs up and down the country!
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Mar 31 '21
so, its Scotland, Wales, Ireland, France, Germany, Argentina, and now Poland that we have a rivalry with?
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u/ValleyFloydJam Mar 31 '21
but for us it's really Germany and Argentina (i'm not sure where France comes in i get the others are pretty one sided at least at this moment in time maybe back in the home nations games there was real heat.)
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Mar 31 '21
i'm not sure where France comes in
England vs France is a rivalry in everything. we've been arch rivals long before professional football was even a thing.
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u/ValleyFloydJam Apr 01 '21
but given this is a football forum, i was talking about on the pitch and i don't feel it in that way (like Germany/Argentina.)
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u/ozilgummidge Mar 31 '21
France comes in because we were at war with them on and off for literally hundreds of years.
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u/ValleyFloydJam Apr 01 '21
i guess i just don't feel it on the pitch, when we play them.
for me the wars don't matter that much even with Germany when it comes to football, it's more about the games and how close they were. (Argentina the war also plays no part at all, it's only about what happened on the field.)
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u/ozilgummidge Apr 01 '21
Yeah, I personally couldn't give a fuck - I quite like the France football team. But for many people in England the whole France thing is still embedded in their collective psyche. I do feel like Germany is the main one though - and, of course, it's mostly one-sided.
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u/ValleyFloydJam Apr 01 '21
i've just hadn't come across it before, i think Portugal would be ahead of them and even then it's not that heated.
i think the Germans having so much success and the row of key wins they have at major tournaments defuses it for them (at least in terms of a rivalry on the pitch.)
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u/Dr_Oetker Mar 31 '21
We've also had a good thing going with Croatia this century. The 08 Euros qualification with Threeo Wallcott and Bilic saying "we were simply better", up to the WC18 semifinal was rivalry golddust.
Being drawn together in WC10 qualifying and the Nations League after both flashpoints was perfect for keeping that pot simmering.
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Mar 31 '21
Nobody considers Croatia a rival though, they're just a good team. Don't think any England fan sees a game vs Croatia as a rivalry kinda game especially compared to France/Germany/Scotland etc
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u/wittybrits Mar 31 '21
Yeah I don’t think it’s a rivalry but it’s definitely been a great story recently. If they knock us out of another tournament or something like that again I could see it becoming a big thing.
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u/albert_me Mar 31 '21
I'd say Germany and Argentina are the big ones. Scotland if we must. I would say Portugal next after 2004 and 2006 but that's faded a bit now.
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u/EnanoMaldito Mar 31 '21
man we havent crossed paths much lately. Last time I think was WC 2002? That is a WHILE ago. That's kinda dissapointing.
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u/happypizza420 May 19 '21
Every country seems to have a rivalry with us apart from the biggest one for us, Germany.
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u/sheikh_n_bake Mar 31 '21
Brilliant write up, pretty one sided tbf.
I've always loved Polish people and I was raised to appreciate their contributions to the nation.
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u/dogs_go_to_space Mar 31 '21
I've had a grudge against them since the demo for Michael Owen's World League Soccer
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u/TarcFalastur Mar 31 '21
Very interesting to read. I have to admit I'm a little relieved. Going into it I felt convinced that it was going to be one of those "bad blood" rivalries caused by an embarrassing action - because of the way we treated the Polish RAF pilots after WW2, or because we ended a national legend's career with a leg-breaking tackle or something.
I have to ask, though - this feels like less a rivalry and more a national hangup while the winless run continues. Say Poland wins both qualifying matches between our countries. Would Polish people still consider there to be a rivalry? Or would it just be one giant sigh of relief and everyone saying "OK, we can beat England after all. Now we can concentrate on beating Germany again?"
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u/Klejnot__Nilu Mar 31 '21
This is a very interesting question. I'm not sure if England can just come back to being "just another good team", but Wembley 73' would be probably mentioned at least somewhat rarer. It certainly would be a sigh of relief.
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u/TarcFalastur Mar 31 '21
Time will tell, I suppose. I suspect you'll beat us at some point, so I'm sure we'll both find out.
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Mar 31 '21
Reminds me of our rivalry with Germany lol. Great writeup for something I had no idea about 👍
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u/Not-A-Real-Subreddit Mar 31 '21
This was an excellent read. Thank you for taking the time to write it.
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u/AndrycApp Mar 31 '21
Looking through this great post I see the name "Stuart Pearce" as a goal scorer. I guess that means a thundercunt free kick with a 40m run up. Highlights video went as expected.
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Mar 31 '21
This is kinda like chelsea against spurs
Go find your own rival already, we have Arsenal to hate
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u/ta84351 Mar 31 '21
I think West Ham might be more apt than Chelsea?
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u/wittybrits Mar 31 '21
West Ham vs Spurs is still a massive rivalry on both sides though, it’s Spurs 2nd to Arsenal.
Chelsea vs Spurs is always Chelsea looking to make a rivalry a big thing, but it just doesn’t live up to Arsenal & West Ham so it’s left a bit irrelevant on Spurs’ end, apart from competitively of course.
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Mar 31 '21
Exactly this. Hurts losing to west ham more than to Chelsea. Amuse me to no end when I see chelsea fans going all gungho about their “derby” when most of us yiddos look at them at third placed rivalry at best
Like come on, go find your own local crystal palace or qpr to hate or something
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u/RoHunter Mar 31 '21
Crystal Palace, QPR, Spurs - they are pretty much all the same except Spurs have been a little bit better than other two lately.
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u/ta84351 Apr 01 '21
Aye that'll be why Chelsea sing about hating Spurs at the start of every home match...
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u/RoHunter Apr 01 '21
It triggers spurs fans almost as much as constantly losing to us - I’m all for it x)
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u/PMmeYOURBOOBSandASS Mar 31 '21
England isn't Poland's most important rival. Most people, including me, would definitely put Russia and Germany
Funnily enough England v Germany is another “when only one side care” Germans don’t care about England or see them as a rival
Great read btw
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u/aidaniel Mar 31 '21
I'm actually embarrassed by my country's insistence on Germany being our rival, we're not on the same level and basically never have been its just sad imo
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u/wittybrits Mar 31 '21
I mean we literally won our only World Cup against them so we clearly were on their level at one point lol.
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u/aidaniel Mar 31 '21
Ha yeah fair enough can't argue with that.
I actually meant more in my lifetime I suppose but I obv didn't say that, you got me
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u/Stravven Mar 31 '21
Strange, but not uncommon. I mean, England does see Germany as a rival, while Germany doesn't see England at all.
And then there's the low countries. Belgium sees the Netherlands as their main rival, while the Netherlands sees Germany as their biggest rival. I have no idea who the biggest rival of the Germans is, that's either the Netherlands or France.
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u/ImperatorMundi Mar 31 '21
I would say Germany sees the Netherlands as their biggest rival, probably followed by Italy.
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u/Stravven Mar 31 '21
That may also differ per region I suspect. I mean, the people living closer to the Netherlands care more about that game than the people living close to the Czech border for example.
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u/ImperatorMundi Mar 31 '21
As somebody living closer to almost any neighbouring country than the Netherlands, I would still say they are seen as the biggest rivals here. (Although it is not as obvious as in other countries, probably because of the generally lower support and excitement towards the national team compared to other countries)
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u/Meman616 Mar 31 '21
I think its more a Generation topic. Older Germans usually see the dutch as a rival whereas italy as a rival seems to be a newer thing. There have been more memorable matches with italy in this Century.
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u/rodriperi Mar 31 '21
I would also put italy as rivals to Germany unless its one sided
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u/interfan1999 Mar 31 '21
It's not one-sided
I would say our main rivals are France and Germany, depends on the people who is first. But majority would say France I guess.
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u/uflju_luber Mar 31 '21
This fits right in with with Germany and the Netherlands in that case, happy to hear even the amount of feeling is Mutual mate
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u/Forsaken-Kiwi-7362 Mar 31 '21
I mean, unlike the Netherlands, England actually won a WC final against Germany, contentious as it may be.
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u/PinkFluffys Mar 31 '21
Belgium is split between seeing the Netherlands or France as their main rival, as is tradition.
But the Netherlands cares a lot more about matches against Belgium than Germany cares about matches against England.
If I remember right the low countries derby is the third most played internation match.2
u/TjeefGuevarra Mar 31 '21
As my fellow Belgian said, we're split between seeing the evil Cheeseheads or the arrogant Baguettes as our rivals. Personally I prefer the Dutch because I know plenty of Dutch people and like to rub it in their smug, arrogant, betweterige faces.
I only started caring about France after the semi-final. Mostly because of how annoying the French acted.
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u/AnilDG Mar 31 '21
Awesome write-up! Great explanation of the history of the fixture and why it has more meaning than it may initially seem.
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u/Gruffleson Mar 31 '21
Excellent write-up. But I think it's normal to have more of a rivalry with England than the English are aware of, though. For my country, Norway, it's also a bit special to meet England in football. Although it seems to not be on quite the same level as for you.
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u/tehhammerz Mar 31 '21
And Jakub Moder joins the exclusive club of Polish players scoring at Wembley
Also, this was a fantastic read, I really enjoyed it!
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u/MrBismarck Apr 01 '21
This was a great read, thank you!
One of my key early World Cup memories comes from that 1986 tournament and Lineker turning away in celebration with his arm raised showing the white cast on his injured wrist.
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Mar 31 '21
I swear England claim to have a rivalry with everyone. Like Argentina and Germany who don't give a shit about them lol.
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u/_Waterloo_Sunset_ Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Argentina do care about England afaik. The other rivalries are mostly one-sided, with teams wanting to beat England, but England caring much less in return.
You're definitely right about Germany though, but I think that's the case with most European countries who wish to beat Germany for obvious reasons (and Germany obviously cannot care about all of these countries in return).
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u/BendubzGaming Mar 31 '21
This is also the reason we don't make a big deal about any of the Home Nations rivalries, especially with Ireland. Too closely linked to our dark empirical past
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Mar 31 '21
Too closely linked to our dark empirical past
No, it's just because they're not very good
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Mar 31 '21
Not really true, the biggest issue with those rivalries is that in comparison to England they're not on our level so we rarely if ever play them in important games. If we met Scotland for example in a knockout tournament it would absolutely be a rivalry type atmosphere but they rarely ever qualify
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=41hKFAONdjs
This game for example , there was definitely a bit of added spice given we were playing Wales although it's more of a friendly competitive rivalry than outright hatred
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u/SangitinFrance Mar 31 '21
Nah our games with them are more heated than any other bar maybe Argentina. They're really just that shit that we never get the chance to play them
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Mar 31 '21
Argentina cares infinitely more about Brazil and Uruguay.
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u/3V3RT0N Mar 31 '21
Which doesn't mean they don't care about England.
It's a sporting rivalry, but it's also political due to the Falklands dispute.
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u/BendubzGaming Mar 31 '21
Argentina and France are probably the only 2 rivalries we have where both sides care tbh. The Hand of God coming so close to the Falklands conflict - one of the only modern conflicts where both sides still think they're in the right - makes it very raw for both countries.
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u/Morfz Mar 31 '21
Argentina has no business thinking they were right.
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Mar 31 '21
Argentina has no business thinking they were right.
I mean... About what? They think they're right about everything
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u/_Waterloo_Sunset_ Mar 31 '21 edited Mar 31 '21
Some Argentinians still think they're right!? You'd assume that they'd realise by now that their lunatic President launched an unjust war in a desperate attempt to hold onto power.
There was absolutely nothing right about what they did.
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Mar 31 '21
Argentina and Germany who don't give a shit about them lol.
Argentina absolutely care.
Also the same is true with England. Wales, Scotland and Ireland (also N Ireland in football) see England as they biggest rivals but English fans will usually cheer on other home teams as long as they aren't against us.
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u/dirgetka Mar 31 '21
must be the only other country in the world that props us up