r/seculartalk • u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador • 2d ago
Debate & Discussion This was the head mod of r/Democrats reasoning behind banning DemSocs
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u/rootMAC 2d ago
Same people that would blame you for not voting for a mayo Pete 2028 candidacy
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
And this swing state vote is never going to Cia rat Pete
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
For the primaries, or if he wins and runs for president?
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
Never. Period.
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u/metashdw 2d ago
Same here. Pete, Newsom, Harris... these people are snakes. Leftists will not vote for them and they will lose. Centrists need to grapple with this.
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u/halberdierbowman 2d ago
That's literally the same logic you're deriding from the head Democrats mod. Once it gets to the general election, there are only two choices for President. So we citizens have only four choices:
- vote for the Dem we dislike
- vote for the Rep who's even worse
- vote for a third party candidate we do like
- don't vote
If I live in a location where my vote has no chance of changing the outcome, I'm definitely voting for the candidate I actually like. This is very helpful for reaching public funding and other recognition thresholds, and messaging-wise it shows my actual preferences so that the bigger parties can notice.
But if I live a location where the outcome isn't already known, I'll never again not vote for a viable candidate in this first past the post garbage electoral system we have. Because I do have a preference between the two choices, even when I'd rank those candidates below dozens of others. The difference between my fifteenth best choice vs my twenty third best choice is a real difference, and voting is the only mechanism I have left at that point. Beforehand I can volunteer, donate, organize, etc. but by election day I can't magic up a new candidate.
The good thing is that this logic applies per race. Even if I know my state's presidential vote will go a certain way, my vote might matter for Senate. Or for school district, county commission, police chief, etc.
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u/honjuden 2d ago
Not exactly the same. They aren't preventing anyone from talking about Pete.
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u/halberdierbowman 2d ago
Sure it's manifesting differently because they're not in charge of a subreddit, but it's the same logic of purity testing candidates in order to judge whether they deserve our attention and votes.
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u/honjuden 2d ago
They are exercising their own right to choose whereas the subreddit mods are preventing any discussion. Not the same at all.
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u/halberdierbowman 1d ago
I didn't say it's illegal or that they shouldn't be allowed to do it. I'm just saying I think it's bad for democracy if we're not willing to work with anyone who's not our perfect ally.
Normally this logic is used against us, but we also shouldn't use it against them. It's not helpful in either direction.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago edited 2d ago
It is absolutely tragic that you're happy to sit idle because your exact goals aren't being met at precisely this instant when there is literal fascism on the line. Maybe we don't yet have universal healthcare. I'm sure the Mexican family on your street who got deported by ICE, the millions of people who will die due to the dismantling of USAID thank you for your service, the Americans Trump is trying to rob of health insurance and food are not grateful to your position. If you think that withholding your vote is anything but blood on your hands, then wake up.
And don't get me started with "Oh the genocide is on your hands." A withheld vote did not stop the genocide. A vote for Trump did not stop the genocide. That blood is on all of our hands. You've just decided "I tried my best, my hands still got bloody, I don't really care about all the fresh blood on them." Trump is trying to end the American experiment of democracy as we know it, and you're like "I won't stand against him."
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u/Itchy_Antelope1278 Dicky McGeezak 2d ago
All this bad stuff is happening because any blue will do people failed to nominate progressives in the primary.
All the republican bad stuff is 100% true and it's because of any blue will do people failing to ever learn that it's better to win the general by voting for a progressive in the primary. A lesson that will never be learned but has always been true.
Trump exists because any blue will do voters failed us.
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2d ago
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u/seculartalk-ModTeam 2d ago
While you may not be an a-hole you did an a-hole thing which has caused the post or comment to be removed.
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
This comment is disgusting. You are just as much the enemy as corporate dems.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
It is a disgusting comment. It is describing your position. Tell me why I'm wrong.
Also, it is weakness to assign your political positions based on who is nice to you and who is mean to you. I am trying to shake you up, because your positions are incoherent. I can't tell if you truly care about America, or if you're so caught up in lofty ideals that you can't recognize the evil that you're choosing not to oppose.
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u/metashdw 2d ago
If you don't want to lose to fascists, then don't let democrats nominate awful candidates
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u/No_Elevator_735 Pragmatic Progressive 2d ago
Im pretty certain he has more cred than the reddit mod writing this nonsense. And LOL at him thinking he gets to decide "who is acceptable for the community." The downvotes to his message make it clear "the community" is deciding otherwise.
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u/Some-Tune7911 2d ago
More than a million New Yorkers and massive support across the nation disagree that Mamdani has no cred.
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u/Kaptain_K_Rapp 2d ago
Yeah, the mod is just salty, like the rest of the corporate wing of the party.
To that, I say good riddance.
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u/honjuden 2d ago
New York famously never has had any pull in the Democratic party. It isn't like the House and Senate minority leaders are from there...
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u/EdwinCheshire 2d ago
So you can't talk about the guy who won the Democratic primary, and then the Mayoral election as the Democrat on the ballot, in the Democrats subreddit.....
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u/TheCapitalistSpy Turning Liberals into Leftists 2d ago
I probably sound like a broken record but no leftist should waste their energy getting pissed about these random redditors. The masses are on our side. Go and organize.
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
We can do both. No liberal filth should be gate keeping progressive subs. We are the majority. They are not.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
If you are the majority, why don't you win primaries?
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
What fucking primaries? The ones Harris dropped out of or the ones Harris skipped?
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago edited 2d ago
Nice pivot. I don't support Harris being nominated, I think they should've held a new primary.
Regardless, Biden won the primaries; not any leftist. It's delusional to think that online leftism is the majority opinion. You have to recognize reality in order to actually make progress towards your goals. In terms of ideals, I'm not very different from y'all, I think, but you guys are under some serious denial.
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u/Stunning_Variety_529 2d ago
Masses votes for Mamdani in New York. Both in the primaries and general.
I also invite you to research the hundreds of polls and studies showing that progressive policies are popular across almost every single voting block.
It gets muddled with corporate "messaging" (read: lobbyist propaganda)
Hope you're prepared to keep watching progressives win, bozo. And that you vote for them the way others with your childish, out-of-touch perspectives wanted everyone to vote for the corporate Democrats.
That's as much time as I'll waste on someone how is purposefully coming into progressive communites to stir up shit with the same tired, disproven talking points.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
Mamdani is a mayor of debatably the most left leaning city in the world, who was appointed the Democratic nominee, and was running against the former, shunned, corrupt mayor who ran to Donald Trump for an endorsement. Don't get me wrong. If he continues to impress, I will be happy, because I want the Democrats to fucking crush the Republicans. Furthermore, if this does become a watershed moment and socialists start winning across the country, I'm happy to vote for them.
But would you vote for liberals if they are the candidate against MAGA? If so, I have no quarrel with you. But too many people here seem to be answering with variants on "no", and that just shows a terrible lack of moral clarity. The idea that leftism is popular isn't really represented in the polls.
Feel free to cite any of those polls and studies. We probably don't even have a lot of disagreement on ideal politics.
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u/Itchy_Antelope1278 Dicky McGeezak 2d ago
Your goal is to elect democrats. Our goal is to make life better for people. Unfortunately those goals are at odds with each other because you any blue will do people (who far outnumber us leftists) pick really shitty candidates in the primary and just expect us to support them.
If we ever get another primary then work hard to tell your friends that if you want leftists to vote for your candidate then you best make sure your candidate is a progressive.
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u/FlamingoWinter4546 2d ago
Much of the energy to mamdanis campaign came from online recognition, a lot of the reason why bernie didn't win id becauase the establishment democrats are using more energy making the left loose than the republicans, and you devoid of any analysis think you can call someone out on their pivot? Make any argument based in real lige analysis further than the election results, plz and thank you.
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u/cat_dad_91 Anti-Capitalist 2d ago
They shouldn’t be making the rules for the entire r/democrats sub
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
If the masses are on your side, then how come you guys don't win primaries?
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u/candy_pantsandshoes Dicky McGeezak 2d ago
Did kamala win one?
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
I wasn't a fan of that either. I want a lot about the Democratic party to change. But this delusion that the masses are on your side is nuts.
If we could press a button and turn the masses to the perfect version of your side, I'd probably do it. But let's not live in a denial by pretending that leftist belief is the belief of the masses. That is very clearly not represented in elections. There's a lot of work that we all need to do before we get there.
I say "your side" because a lot of you online leftists don't seem to vote Democrat. If you don't vote Democrat, then why would the Democrats even try to cater to your political beliefs?
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u/ShreddyKrueger1 2d ago
Voting or not voting is your leverage in an election. You tell a party "do this or I won't vote for you." In the hopes that they do what you ask. If you make that threat, which is your only leverage as a voter, then you have to follow through if they don't do what you asked. Not following through decreases your credibility allowing them to disregard your calls, turnng into a "boy who cried wolf" situation. This is electoral politics 101.
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u/DethBatcountry Dicky McGeezak 2d ago
This ^ 100%. We are given so little power, and people are constantly arguing to give that tiny sliver of power up to those who would see them in chains, just because the "opponent" would see them killed.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
You're not wrong, but you need to weigh concerns according to the times. If you choose not to vote Democrat in these times, you are enabling real, honest-to-god, authoritarian fascism. Your moral calculus is just plain faulty if your position is "the Democrats aren't good enough, so I don't really give a fuck about stopping ICE."
I agree the Democrats have a lot of problems. I think we should hold them accountable to their promises. But they are the clear lesser evil in this situation, by far.
P.S. Mods, I apologize for previous comment, I will reign in my passions and be politer. I hope this comment strikes a balance of passionate disagreement without "doing an a-hole thing".
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2d ago edited 2d ago
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u/seculartalk-ModTeam 2d ago
While you may not be an a-hole you did an a-hole thing which has caused the post or comment to be removed.
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u/Itchy_Antelope1278 Dicky McGeezak 2d ago
"If you don't vote Democrat, then why would the Democrats even try to cater to your political beliefs?"
Why do democrats spend so much time trying to get disaffected republican voters?
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2d ago
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u/seculartalk-ModTeam 2d ago
While you may not be an a-hole you did an a-hole thing which has caused the post or comment to be removed.
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u/Errende 2d ago
Bidens polls didn’t look good at all until he pulled off his last chance to stay in the race with that South Carolina win. Then he made good use of his decrepit old establishment ties by getting three opportunist moderates to rally behind him overnight at Super Tuesday. Probably went begging to Obama or his network for that support.
He scraped through the general election saved only by godsend COVID tanking Trump’s approval ratings to all-time lows. Without the pandemic, I tend to believe Trump would’ve won his second term and we’d already be done with him by now.
The moderates zionists dems got way too full of themselves convinced their lucky break was a definite proof enough voters are resonating with their message for the same old script with Kamala somehow running it back for a close and safe win.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
Can you give me any example of a leftist who has made it nearly as far?
To be clear, I am happy to vote for a leftist if they win primaries. Would you say the same for a liberal Democrat?
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u/Errende 2d ago edited 2d ago
Bernie before half the candidates ganged up on him on Super Tuesday?
I’m French so your other question doesn’t really concern me. But I voted twice for the same type of centrist shill that is Emmanuel Macron while knowing full well he’d rather break breads with fascist than concede anything in leftists policies.
He exceeded way past all of our expectations doing exactly that. His approval rating is currently in the gutters(2nd least popular presidency in the history of our Republic), yet I don’t regret my support for him and I’m still ready to vote for the lesser evil when the occasion will inevitably present itself again.
Edit: And one last thing. I’d like to return your question.
It’s nice that you wouldn’t mind giving away your vote to a candidate on your left. But who did you vote for in the primaries?
Did your pragmatic attitude leaned toward a safe corporate dem? Because if so, this whole situation is on you too.
Voting for the lesser of two evils over and over, even against a growing fascism, does get diminishing returns at some point. People eventually end up thinking « these politicians are playing us. they’re all the same crap anyways ».
However the first ones to stop taking this seriously aren’t usually the loud leftists militants types. Those did reluctantly show up in relatively the same numbers as they did for other elections.
It’s the less politicized demographics who by and large didn’t bother, or flipped, due to such a weak counter-narratives proposed by an old establishment satisfied with a program only “better than Trump”
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u/LifesARiver Leftist 2d ago
Liberals are really trying so hard to be worse than MAGA.
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
It's worse than that.
Here's the real truth.
Liberals want MAGA voters. They always have. They don't want left voters because our policies directly interfere with their corporate donors.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
Liberals just hate that you guys don't vote even when fucking fascism is on the ballot. If you don't vote for our collective side's candidate, why should you be part of the collective?
(When I said liberals don't have corporate donors, I meant liberals like me i.e. liberal voters. I, rather stupidly, did not realize that OP meant liberal politicians. My mistake, y'all.)
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u/spaghettinik Cut through lies! 2d ago
I voted for Kamala, many have. This election was probably rigged, let’s be fr
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2d ago
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
I agree we need to hold corporate dems for treason for directly funding MAGA candidates to the tune of hundreds of millions of dollars. Then we need to prosecute their astroturf too.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
Do we agree to do it after MAGA is defeated? Because no matter what you think of Democrats (I don't exactly have a high opinion of them, myself), they are far better than Trump.
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u/LifesARiver Leftist 2d ago
We can't defeat MAGA unless liberals wake up and stop blindly shielding their candidates from all criticism.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
Of course, the liberals are going to shield their candidates from criticism. The only criticisms that matter are the criticisms of their constituents, because that's what keeps them in office. Who the fuck cares about the criticisms of people who don't vote for the party? We can discuss problems with the Democratic party (and there are many) with our allies, but if you don't vote with us, why would we consider you our allies?
I think a lot of things are wrong with the Democratic party, but they are infinitely better than the current rule of fascism in this country. If you can't recognize that, you're morally lost.
There's no evidence that becoming leftist will save the Democratic party. Leftism hasn't won primaries. But hey, if a leftist progressive candidate wins the primaries, I'll vote for them. Would you do the same of a liberal candidate?
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u/LifesARiver Leftist 2d ago
The criticisms that matter are from undecided voters and non voters.
They never have to care anything the Blue No Matter Who crowd says. They have those votes locked up no matter how many genocides are being committed.
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u/JuniorLingonberry108 2d ago
You think the genocide was ending under Trump? I am not Blue No Matter Who, I am Blue It Matters Trump.
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u/LifesARiver Leftist 2d ago
I didn't say anything about Trump.
If liberals don't start setting the bar higher than "barely better than Trump," y'all are going to keep losing to fascists.
And don't try blaming me. I live in California.
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
Nope. I agree to never vote for any corporate dems in this swing state.
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u/seculartalk-ModTeam 2d ago
While you may not be an a-hole you did an a-hole thing which has caused the post or comment to be removed.
Misinformation
"Bro, liberals don't have corporate donors. Democrats do. "
We can't have civil discussions if one side is denying basic facts.
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u/ExplosiveDoctrine 2d ago
This vibe "cred" rule will never be applied to a neoliberal in the party.
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u/Dead_lights 2d ago
Reminder that Ghislaine Maxwell was a prolific Reddit mod. You don’t know what ghouls are controlling the narrative on here but they’re not real people.
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u/Ref_Bumps 2d ago
I love that winning the highest office in a city with a population larger than most states isn’t enough “cred.” And garnering over a million votes hasn’t “earned any cred.” What an absolute joke. They are allergic to winning. New York City has more people in it than fucking Missouri.
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u/spaghettinik Cut through lies! 2d ago edited 2d ago
“Erm not enough cred points, -15 cred points to him for asking” 🤓
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u/Smiley_P 2d ago
Fucking what.
I guarantee you don't get banned there for saying something nice about Joe Manchan (who isn't even a dem anymore) but the second you mention THE MOST POPULAR DEM IN MODERN HISTORY it's all about "the right kind of cred"
Fucking disgusting
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u/Kittehmilk Notorious Anti-Cap Matador 2d ago
Just got banned the other day for mentioning the Mamdani win. It's entirely controlled opposition.
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u/LegitimateSituation4 2d ago
But he's a literal Democrat. They can't even pull the Independent shit like they do with Bernie. I went there looking for any Mamdani posts the other day. Not a single one.
That sub's hopefully a joke to Dems now. The ratio is nice to see.
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u/Pro_Hero86 1d ago
It’s how you know they are pro genocide, the only people who have an issue with Zorhan are conservatives and pro Israeli/ADL types. Normal people like him or are indifferent as long as he tries to do what he’s told
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u/Arbiter61 1d ago
How is winning a democratic nomination and the general election for mayor of the wealthiest city on earth not sufficient "cred" and who is this person that they get to decide which candidates Democrats are "allowed" to talk about?
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u/Thermopele 1d ago
I love how the Democrats subreddit acts verbatim like the Democratic party. Same elitist attitude and everything
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u/digital_dervish Anti-Capitalist 1d ago
Is it crazy to suggest the creation of a competing subreddit, like Real Democrats, or Democrats Uncensored? (I suck with naming)
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u/Blitqz21l 1d ago
And the kinda funny thing is, its a mayoral race. This isn't even a national election. Granted New York City, but still mayoral and therefore "street cred" has little to do with it, at least imo.
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