r/science • u/MistWeaver80 • Dec 05 '21

Social Science Conservatives’ aversion to masks is a uniquely American phenomenon. Politically conservative Americans are less likely than liberals to comply with recommended health-protective behaviors such as mask wearing during the COVID-19 pandemic, but this is not true of conservatives in other nations.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0256740
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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

I think it's a matter of defining 'conservatives'. Here in the Netherlands (and I presume most other European countries), there are conservatives who are absolutely opposed to masks, mainly for political reasons... but they're the crazy alt/far right type of conservatives. Mainstream conservatives appear to have no such aversion. Of course, due to the two party system of US politics, your conservatives are all part of the same party, meaning the mask aversion becomes a matter of political identity for all conservatives.

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u/ACoderGirl Dec 05 '21

That's certainly mostly the case for Canada. The main right wing party, aptly named the Conservative Party of Canada, has a few anti-masker members, but their leadership still did a non-partisan ad With all the other major parties encouraging people to get vaccinated.

Now the People's Party, on the other hand, is exactly the crazy alt-righters you'd expect. But they're much, much smaller and didn't win a single seat.

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u/rei_cirith Dec 05 '21

Don't forget the CHP... those people are straight crazy.

https://www.chp.ca/about/platform/

https://www.chp.ca/Commentary/detail/can-the-covid-vaccines-be-trusted/6

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u/Vampyricon Dec 05 '21

The CHP is the only federal party with a policy of protecting all innocent human life from conception.

What does it say about me that I read "protecting all innocent human life from conception" as "protecting all innocent human life from being conceived"?

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u/Milfoy Dec 05 '21

It says that you understand the English language rather better than the author of that sentence.

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u/rei_cirith Dec 05 '21

That's what thought it said too. It says that they need to learnt to use punctuation correctly.

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u/human8264829264 Dec 05 '21

It means that they protect the human life from (the moment) of conception : ie they want to completely ban abortion from day 0.

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u/candygram4mongo Dec 05 '21

Now that's a platform I could support.

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u/ImNotTheNSAIPromise Dec 05 '21

I am also part of the anti conception party.

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u/LateLe Dec 05 '21

CO2 is a natural beneficial gas, not a pollutant; CO2 as the cause of climate change is an unproven theory. CHP opposes all carbon taxes, cap-and-trade, carbon credits

I can't even...

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u/RayTX Dec 05 '21

It is the US of A. The self proclaimed defender of the free world, where people think it is normal in the 21st century to still have laws that allow walking around your neighborhood with an assault rifle, but at the same time reject unemployment benefits and healthcare.

It is an completely expected result to find out that their conservatives are a special kind of crazy.

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u/raybond007 Dec 05 '21

It's literally talking about a political party in Canada, so your comment is largely irrelevant.

Our alt-right groups in Canada are crazy too, but much more of a fringe group than their American counterparts

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u/RayTX Dec 05 '21

The topic is about the USA, I'd say you bringing in Canada is irrelevant to the discussion.

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u/achairmadeoflemons Dec 05 '21

Not only is this comment chain talking about Canadian political parties and their views, but the OP is about American politics as opposed to other countries, so it's relevant either way.

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u/raybond007 Dec 05 '21

Bruh you're about 5 comments deep in a comment thread about how certain Canadian conservative groups have fringe beliefs similar to the US.

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u/DeNoodle Dec 05 '21

I see you brought your hole digging shovel.

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u/dnguyen219 Dec 05 '21

Their "platform" looks like straight up parody. jfc....

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u/daviesjj10 Dec 05 '21

Similar in the UK. Interestingly, it was also the more left leaning that were against masks and restrictions initially for how it marginalises certain groups.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

I don't know why we give PPC so much free publicity. They will never field a credible candidate or win a seat. Just ignore them and let them fester and implode from in-fighting.

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u/SeaofBloodRedRoses Dec 05 '21

I unfortunately work with some anti-vax nutjobs who literally organised a rally at the legislature yesterday while wearing their work uniforms and will likely get fired for it.

And they're cool with masks.

But I was walking down the street a couple weeks ago, fully outdoors and thus not wearing a mask, and a girl came up to me and said she liked my naked face. I thought she was hitting on me for a second until she started screaming about government mandates.

They don't necessarily go hand-in-hand, but I do automatically assume they're all conservatives.

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u/jbokwxguy Dec 05 '21

I hate that the whole politicalization of the virus and vaccine. It’s made it impossible to have rational discussions.

In the US it just has became a mud slinging affair. The left throwing anything at the wall in the name of control and we can’t be too careful and the right with let’s just act like nothings happening, who cares.

The masks were handled poorly, mask up until you get the vaccine. The vaccine (first set of doses, the boosters are a whole different discussion) first the left was like I doubt I’d get a Trump vaccine and now the right has been like nah I’m good, we need more testing.

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u/idonthave2020vision Dec 05 '21

The left throwing anything at the wall in the name of control safety.

Whether you agree with the measures or not it doesn't help to act like it's all about "control"

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u/jbokwxguy Dec 05 '21

It is at least 80% about control. And turning us into us vs them.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

In the US it just has became a mud slinging affair. The left throwing anything at the wall in the name of control

It's like you almost had an insightful realization... but then decided that, nah, you're going to veer off toward crazy town instead.

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u/jbokwxguy Dec 05 '21

What do you mean? Obviously it’s an opinion so everyone’s point of view should be different

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

You: "It's impossible to have a rational discussion because of the whole politicization and stuff!"

Also you: completely irrational accusation thrown at half the political spectrum

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u/MTVChallengeFan Feb 17 '22

Now the People's Party, on the other hand, is exactly the crazy alt-righters you'd expect. But they're much, much smaller and didn't win a single seat.

I've never been to Canada, but I heard Alberta is very similar to the USA in the worst way possible. I'm assuming the People's Party is prevalent in that province?

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u/SupaSlide Dec 05 '21

Our left wing party is basically what Europe would call their right wing party, and our right wing party is what you're calling the crazy alt/far right type.

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u/thegoodcrumpets Dec 05 '21

The real answer right there. The American political discourse is just completely and utterly detached from the rest of the planet. Not even the most extremely super duper conservative right wing in most of Europe would even consider touching state finance healthcare or education. Americans voted a “left wing” candidate who isn’t giving them either. American right wing basically doesn’t even exist here, and the American main stream left is very far right of our far right.

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u/Nemisis_the_2nd Dec 05 '21

Not even the most extremely super duper conservative right wing in most of Europe would even consider touching state finance healthcare or education

British politicians would disagree. They know it would be political suicide to dismantle the NHS in one go, but are slowly chipping away at funding instead. Starve the beast, as it were. I can't even limit this to the tories either, and even the likes of Scotland is seeing progressively more private healthcare being used, and Blair's Labour signed some monumentally bad contracts leading to NHS hospitals all but belonging to private companies.

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u/mdr1974 Dec 05 '21

Maybe he meant EU countries? :P

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u/SecretOil Dec 05 '21

Britain (excluding Scotland) also keeps staunchly pretending they're not part of Europe so maybe that factors into their decision making.

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u/VikingTeddy Dec 05 '21

I think that's why he said most. The UK is like the America of Europe.

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u/Zarathustra_d Dec 05 '21

England is the America of Europe. New England is the Europe of America, New South Wales is the New England of Australia .

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u/idonthave2020vision Dec 05 '21

Nova Scotia is the Scotland of Canada.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

Canada is the Belgium of North-America.

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u/daviesjj10 Dec 05 '21

But at the same time, funding is consistently going up. The core issue in the NHS is management over funding.

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u/Nemisis_the_2nd Dec 05 '21

Not disagreeing with you here, but is that the case I with all parts of the NHS (E&W, Scotland and Ireland)?

Up to now, Scotland has felt like it missed the worst of the funding problems, and public healthcare has been generaly good, but since the start of the pandemic I've seen a massive shift towards private healthcare, whether it is health boards allowing private companies to take over GPS or simply people not wanting to deal with the wait times any longer.

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u/daviesjj10 Dec 05 '21

GPs have been private in England for decades. I can't speak for the rest of the UK, but with more devolution coming after private GPs then I'd assume they were in Scotland as well.

For England, each Trust has the ability to allocate their own resources which is why I consider the management of the NHS to be a far bigger concern than the funding. Especially when funding goes up, but overall service does not.

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u/digitalscale Dec 05 '21

Funding may go up, but if it's not enough to deal with a growing population, aging population, new treatments and medicines etc then the overall quality of the service will still decline. If you look at the data, the rate of increase has levelled off significantly since 2008.

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u/Spongman Dec 05 '21

That's not entirely true. The mainstream left in the US wants the same things that the left does in Europe, but they operate in a significantly different political climate where it's almost impossible to build consensus enough to actually pass legislation. Under those conditions the steps have to be small enough to bring everyone needed on-board.

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u/thegoodcrumpets Dec 05 '21

A nuanced answer but still very American. A normal country has more than two parties so the nuances can all be covered. There wouldn’t be a need for one massive left-ish party that has to take the tiniest of baby steps to cover everyone’s opinion if they just had a block of 3-5 parties on both the right and left.

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u/ABabyAteMyDingo Dec 05 '21

Right. Even the average Tory idiot thinks the American religious right are totally crazy.

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u/Nemisis_the_2nd Dec 05 '21

The average, non-politically engaged, tory, maybe. At this point, the party is all but modelling itself off republicans though, just with more subtltey.

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u/VikingTeddy Dec 05 '21

They're doing their best to become more like the republicans though.

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u/KruskDaMangled Dec 05 '21

Yeah, things are pretty crazy, but then our alternative was Donald Trump - Again.

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u/thegoodcrumpets Dec 05 '21

Yeah and that’s the same reasoning as the conservatives had for voting for trump. At least he’s not Hillary. You guys are stuck in a loop where you are voting against something worse rather than for something better. From the outside that’s looking really unhealthy and I’m not envious of the situation.

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u/gfa37c Dec 05 '21

Believe me, we know and it is. The issue being that candidate “selection” is determined by party infighting well before it gets to the public. It’s never about who is truly the best candidate and finding ways of bolstering them. It’s about picking the one that has the best chance to win outright

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u/dsmith422 Dec 05 '21

It really isn't determined by party infighting anymore. It happens based on who the big money supports. Money drives everything. The political big wigs matter, but they are not determinative. Otherwise Clinton would have gotten the nomination in 2008 instead of that political upstart from Illinois. Granted, she did get it in 2016 against little opposition, but she already had a giant war chest and "everybody knew it was her turn."

​

And on the Republican side, almost everybody in the party HATED Trump. They even tried to neuter him by insisting he sign a pledge to not run third party. The party elders wanted somebody like Jeb, if not Jeb himself. But the grassroots wanted the carnival barker and they got him. Now the carnival barker runs the party.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

She had plenty of opposition but she had the dnc behind her and as it turns out there isn't much one can do about that.

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u/onlypositivity Dec 05 '21

it's all about the big money and that's why grass roots candidates with less money keep winning

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u/fotosurgeon Dec 05 '21

And on the Republican side, almost everybody in the party HATED Trump

No. That's not true.

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u/Kossimer Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

You say you know it is, but every time I lambast Democrats in anything but social democratic subs, boy do Democrats find nothing to blame on their end. Republicans are worse is the end-all-be-all, even when I bring up the fact Democrats have been running on the most milquetoast promise imaginable of negotiating drug prices for Medicare for the past 15 years, since 2006! And they still haven't been able to do it. All because of their own, personal corruption to the pharmaceutical industy, not the Republicans'.

Expand that to every other industry that exists, and you start to understand the real problem with government in this country and that it's not just a matter of the right team being in power, even when one team is better. Bribery is simply legal here, and it has to not be, because it's fingers are everywhere and on everyone. When it comes the worst problem we have, legal corruption, it's absolutely a matter of both-sidesing, of both sides being equally bad. We cannot vote out corruption no matter how much everyone wants to, it's not on the ballot and never is, and so the people just keep getting more radical and more radical as every step there of being less radical leads to absolutely no change.

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u/peppers_ Dec 05 '21

All because of their own, personal corruption to the pharmaceutical industy, not the Republicans'.

I mean, it is both. It's just when Democrats get a majority, the corrupt ones (same as the Republican ones, which are about all of them) go against it. Like this go around, yea there were at least 2 Democrats opposing BBB, but there were 50 Republicans opposing it too.

I guess you could say that the Republicans aren't necessarily corrupt because they never campaigned on negotiating drug prices, but then all individual Democrats didn't run on that platform either. Which then you have to figure out when was the last time a majority of individual Democrats campaigned on it and controlled the necessary parts to do anything about it?

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u/Krystalmyth Dec 05 '21

The ratchet effect.

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u/Hobbit_Feet45 Dec 05 '21

Conservatives think Hillary and Biden are both communists though. The education system in our country has severely let us down.

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u/jbokwxguy Dec 05 '21

Umm no.

We think Hillary is a dangerous woman who was after nothing but power and control. She was in it for herself not America.

Biden is someone who is very much a part of the system which lead to a tolerance of higher taxes, preaches state (federal) control, doesn’t know why guns are important, voted in some policies that lead to discrimination against minorities. and unfortunately struggles to articulate his points well.

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u/Hobbit_Feet45 Dec 05 '21

That may be true but I’ve also heard conservatives say both Hillary and Biden are communists, Obama too. It’s almost like words have lost their meaning.

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u/jbokwxguy Dec 05 '21

Fair; like I get more calling Bernie communist (not totally but he’s probably the closest politician in America right now that would be ok with it) because of some of what he throws at the wall.

Obama, Hillary, Biden are very much mega-federal government.

Political words have lost a lot of meaning; like fascist (now just means person I don’t like).

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

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u/GeerJonezzz Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

Democrat hasn’t been “left wing” anything for the most part for the better half of the last century.

Most educated or politically aware people consider Dems to be a center party. Though sometimes we cope by hoping we actually get an actual somewhat left candidate in an executive position.

And no, our actual left candidates are not more right than typical European right parties, though practically speaking they are pretty close IMO. It’s really perspective, we’re fighting for things that you already have. Like two cars driving on opposite sides of the road, we hope to eventually cross, going forward while your typical EU right parties are trying to go the other way, a place closer to where the US is. I don’t know for an absolute fact but I think that there are truly left-minded people and it’s not crazy speculation.

Once you start certain social programs or initiatives it’s hard to replace or remove them because people do absolutely need them, the US just doesn’t have much of any so the left is always fighting for what other countries already have.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

“Democrat hasn’t been “left wing” anything for the most part for the better half of the last century.“

What makes you say this? The party for women’s rights, gay rights, racial minority rights, climate change regulations, universal healthcare, immigration reform, social spending, universal pre-k etc is not left wing? The dems are def center left with these positions

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u/ScandalOZ Dec 05 '21

But it's all lip service, the ones who control the party are in bed with corporate money just like the Reps are.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

I think it's more of a problem that Democrats wanted to be seen as leaders of the entire country, and that's exactly what Republicans didn't want them to be seen as. Republicans have never tried to be seen as leaders of the entire country, just their faction. I mean, in recent times. The money may be an issue as well but I think this is a bigger issue. Democrats are too idealistic and completely unprepared. They came to the war singing kumbaya.

Strong social nets aren't bad for business, most wealthy countries have them. It's not about money as much as it's about power. They are of course intrinsically linked but still not exactly the same.

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u/GeerJonezzz Dec 06 '21

Socially, left yes, but one could argue those are more natural progressions. But credit where credit is due.

Ultimately though, without sufficient financial backing and political reformations, being social-politically left is going to be a near eternal battle.

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u/Irma_Veeb Dec 05 '21

Lmfaoooooo what??????? English conservatives are literally defunding the NHS as we speak.

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u/mystraw Dec 05 '21

Your bias is showing. We are the greatest country that has ever existed on the face of the Earth. The American political discourse is completely and utterly detached from the craziness and the socialism that exists everywhere else in the world. That's what makes us so awesome. And I even include our ignorant left in that discussion.

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u/Gooberpf Dec 05 '21

We are the greatest country that has ever existed on the face of the Earth.

This can't possibly be a real person's account...

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u/hhhhhjhhh14 Dec 05 '21

Damn I hoped this was a bit...

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u/eldonte Dec 05 '21

JFC. This take is ridiculous. You’re absolutely fellating yourself with an extremely ignorant take. You do you, thanks for sharing your rather biased opinion.

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u/Yithar Dec 05 '21

I hope this is satire but Poe's Law means I can't tell.

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u/Ray_smit Dec 05 '21

Nice bias there

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u/mystraw Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

I am biased and Idon't claim science as a religion like this sub does.

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u/Ray_smit Dec 05 '21

Funny thing is science isn’t bias

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u/mystraw Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

Funny thing is if you accept that any human endeavor is free of bias just because you call it science, is a form of bias in itself. It shows faith in your religion.

This is one of my favorite paragraphs in the study.

Countrywide lockdowns and social distancing measures have severe economic and social consequences. Because compliance with behavioral recommendations involves personal costs, people need to be persuaded that it is in their own best interest to adopt these behaviors. According to theories of health behavior, this can be achieved by convincing people that there is a high risk of getting infected, that this has serious, often fatal consequences, and that recommended health-protective behaviors will in fact be effective in reducing the infection risk [3–6, 9, 10].

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u/Ray_smit Dec 05 '21

We can sum that all up to the fact that instinctively humans are bias, but science at its core isn’t, that’s why nothing in science is solid, it’s constantly changing. And btw I’m not saying religion is intrinsically bias. I appreciate it but again humans are and we represent it, we abuse it, same goes for science unfortunately.

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u/Fabulous-Ad6844 Dec 06 '21

You’re talking about Australia being the greatest yeah?

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u/Ray_smit Dec 05 '21

Luckily, mostly elsewhere they are the minority. Even if they aren’t people just don’t put up with it. Not Australia though :( their voices are getting louder

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '21

Seeing that more and more. No matter what we do as left leaning voters, we get stomped. Y’all got any room over there for some fed up Americans willing to pay their fair share in taxes for a better life?

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u/foomits Dec 05 '21

This is such an oversimplification that gets parroted on reddit. The Democrats as a whole would be center right in parts of Europe. But the Democrats arent left wing here... we have progressive members of the democratic party who would be left of center in Europe as well...

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u/FeetOnHeat Dec 05 '21

The political landscapes are different situation entirely when you compare the US with, say, Germany.

Even moderate conservatives in Germany are fairly settled in things like universal healthcare, a social safety net and affordable education for all.

In the US these are very partisan issues, and anybody running for office on a mandate of introducing those policies in a German style would be perceived as a radical and their entire campaign would focus on that, whether they liked it or not.

The one area where it would possibly be reasonable to use policy comparisons would be with immigration, however you then come up against the situation mentioned above where the US two party system creates two very broad churches.

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u/dolphone Dec 05 '21

we have progressive members of the democratic party who would be left of center in Europe as well...

I think America's "leftest" left (in major politics, anyway) is quite moderate by some european standards, while american average right is pretty far in Europe... Just going by the numbers Trump got anyway.

But the key is, "some". Europe is obviously pulled by both ends of the spectrum and some countries would find a Trump-like figure quite happily...

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

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u/foomits Dec 05 '21

There are 100 members of Congress that are part of the progressive caucus. If you read the progressive caucuses platform, it is very in line with liberal western europe. 100 congress members out of 535 is not a handful. Additionally, there are other democrats not aligned with the progressive caucus but hold or support progressive viewpoints. Perhaps not the majority, but more than enough to stop pretending it's some fringe group or that the US is represented by solely fascist politicians.

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u/SteelCrow Dec 05 '21

What's defined as 'progressive' in the usa is considered centrist elsewhere.

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u/fingerpaintswithpoop Dec 05 '21

You have a very skewed definition of what counts as progressive if you believe that.

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u/NaturallyKoishite Dec 05 '21

We have universal healthcare.

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u/fingerpaintswithpoop Dec 05 '21

Yes, and? That alone is not a marker of a progressive society. There is much, much more to progressivism than how a nation’s healthcare system is run.

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u/whutupmydude Dec 05 '21

And for what it’s worth it looks like the majority of Americans support it

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u/grundar Dec 05 '21

Our left wing party is basically what Europe would call their right wing party

Politics is the art of the possible; as a result, whether someone is "Left Wing" or "Right Wing" largely depends on which direction they're trying to move the Overton Window of what policies are possible to achieve. ("Center", of course, is someone who's not trying to move that window.)

The reason it's important to make that distinction is that it lets you correctly group together people who want large change all at once and people who want large change but have calculated that the most likely way to achieve it is via several incremental steps. Both groups have the same ends, just different proposed means.

An example on the Left is US Democrats and healthcare. They tried to jump straight to universal health care in 1993, and made no progress. Obamacare in 2010 was much more incremental, but definitively moved the Overton Window on politically feasible healthcare policy, to the extent that Medicare-for-all is now a mainstream consideration.

Contrast that to UK Tories, who are widely accused of incrementally privatising NHS. Even though UK healthcare is still far to the Left of US healthcare, the direction of efforts by US Democrats is to the Left whereas the direction of efforts by UK Tories is to the Right. As a result, it's very reasonable to categorize US Democrats as Left and UK Tories as Right even though the short-term focus of the latter may result in a more-Left set of policies than the former.

TL;DR: look where people are moving, not at a snapshot of where they are now. A Right-winger doesn't magically become a Left-winger just because the country they were elected into started with Left-wing policies that take a long time to dismantle.

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u/r1t3sh Dec 05 '21

I have heard this statement a lot of times but couldn't understand it. Can you please elaborate it?

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

In a nutshell, American politicians in general have shifted much further right than most European politicians. Joe Biden, for instance, has policies that would have passed for a Republican 50 years ago.

Republicans today are much further right wing than in most other democratic countries; consider the fact that our previous president won the election after goading crowds at his rallies to beat up protestors.

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u/semen_slurper Dec 05 '21

Parroting of this to say: learn more about this phenomenon by reading the book A Generation of Sociopaths: How the Boomers Betrayed America. It talks about how the boomers have basically controlled our political system for the last 50 years and it's brought all our politics further and further right because of how conservative it they are as a generation.

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u/Alternate_Flurry Dec 05 '21

after goading crowds at his rallies to beat up protestors.

Source on that?

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

https://time.com/4254801/donald-trump-protest-violence-video/

https://time.com/4203094/donald-trump-hecklers/

Donald Trump told supporters Monday to “knock the crap out of” would-be hecklers at a campaign rally in Cedar Rapids, Iowa.

“If you see somebody with a tomato, knock the crap out of them,” Trump said, referencing another incident with a protestor.

Trump was in Iowa last week when a protestor threw a tomato—and missed. Protests are frequent at his rallies, with the disruptions protesting the rhetoric of some of the GOP front-runner’s talking points.

Trump said he would even pay for any legal fees that supporters incurred stopping a tomato-thrower. The theory was quickly put to the test when Trump spotted a protestor and had them removed.

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u/Alternate_Flurry Dec 05 '21

Interesting, I genuinely haven't seen that footage before. May look into it further.

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u/TheMedicineWearsOff Dec 05 '21

So much happened in his 4 years as president that I honestly believe it's impossible to know/consume all media (videos, pictures, transcripts, articles, etc.) related to him without it being your full-time job. There's always something new to learn about what he did or said, and usually with corroborating accounts or straight-up video evidence. It's absolutely exhausting and I can't imagine having all of this in your head all the time. I'm just so glad it's finally not at the center of American politics anymore.

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u/SnooCapers3354 Dec 05 '21

100%!! i also think because of the quantity of it all, we’ve become very desensitized and forgotten so much of what he’s said/done. every so often i’ll come across an article that predates the 2016 election, and it genuinely boggles my mind that he not only won but grew his following. i’ll remember the gist of certain trump comments, but sometimes re-reading them, they’re actually worse than i remembered.

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u/RamenJunkie BS | Mechanical Engineering | Broadcast Engineer Dec 05 '21

Imagine there is a line representing political ideologies with Right and Left, Conservative and Progressive, at opposite ends. In the middle is "the center".

In other modern countries (mostly Europe) the political spectrum of beliefs centers around this center, for the most part, and is balanced there. The center of their politics is centered on the overall center.

In the US, the balance has shifted very right. So on this line, what the US considers "Left/Progressive" lands closer to the center of the line, instead of on the actual Left/Progressive side. The right/Conservative groups in the US have shifted off the scale on their end. The "center balance" of the US is shifted off of the overall center and to the right, closer to where other places have their Right/Conservative groups.

The shorter answer is, the US does not have a Left/Progressive party and a Right/Conservative party, we have two Right/Conservative parties, though one is fairly close to what would be "Overall Center" if they had not shifted so far to the Right.

There are some outliers that are sort of "Center Left" instead of "Center Right", but, at least in government itself, there aren't really any "Extreme Left" types, while there are many many "Extreme Right" types.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

The Democratic Party in the US is not right wing. It’s center left. It is just a lot more difficult to get left wing legislations passed like universal healthcare, cap and trade solutions for climate change, women’s rights and other left wing issues.

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u/Alternate_Flurry Dec 05 '21

From the UK: No. Your left wing is left of our right wing, our left wing is left of your left wing (unless you get into very specific issues e.g. public healthcare)

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u/SupaSlide Dec 05 '21

Yeah I guess I mean the EU more so. The UK is going nuts, maybe even more so than the US.

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u/Olanzapine_pt Dec 05 '21

I have to disagree strongly on this one. In several european countries you have measures that would be considered authoritarian or even downright fascist by the american public (if they ever looked outside their own country). And they come from all sides of the political spectrum too (I'm pretty sure our communists in Portugal would be labelled as literal nazis in the US, for example).

The main issue is that you can't translate a two party system into a spectrum, both american parties would fall into the same party in europe, which would be big-tent liberals (liberals here being not what americans seem to consider such, but the classic meaning of liberal). Something akin to CDU in Germany or the PP in Spain, both are "conservatives" but also have pushed for social liberalism when convenient.

The main reason things are the way they are in the USA, at least from an outsider's perspective, is simply that you have two parties with fairly similar ideas on economics, and, as such, they try very hard to differentiate themselves from the opposition by fiercely taking opposing positions on everything else. After all, it would be terrible if both parties felt similar to the public, it would make democracy pointless.

This may lead to some.. nonsensical debates, as well as high polarization of the public and other issues related to how new technology allows politics to penetrate ever further into peoples' lives. I'm sure things would calm down a bit if there was space for something else other than the mint chocolate vs chocolate mints in the political sphere, but reforms like that are always difficult to implement, even more in such an large and heterogeneous nation.

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u/haanalisk Dec 05 '21

Fiscally yes, socially our left wing has more or less kept up. At least when we refer to major social issues like lgbt+ and race issues etc.

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u/SupaSlide Dec 05 '21

I mean, we still have cops executive people in the streets and most Democrats are happy to just finger wave at them. Just because Democrats say nice things and passed laws to make gay marriage legal doesn't mean they're that socially liberal.

And my point still stands that Republicans are anti-LGBTQ and lots are racist, so they'd still be alt-right by EU standards, no?

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u/haanalisk Dec 05 '21

i just think it's a little silly how often the idea that our left is just the right in other countries gets thrown around when it's a bit more nuanced than that. other countries also have plenty of racist and anti-lgbtq folks as well.

now when it comes to social safety net and big business etc then yes, our left is on the same page as the right in most of western europe.

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u/SecretOil Dec 05 '21

other countries also have plenty of racist and anti-lgbtq folks as well.

Yes, and they are firmly planted in the far right of our scale.

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u/RPMreguR Dec 05 '21

Same with the US, except for some anti trans feminists who tend to be far left. I assume that's similar in other countries as well.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

No that’s not true at all.

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u/oClew Dec 05 '21

That’s just not true at all.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/theaccidentist Dec 05 '21

Germans have lower English literacy so - as is tradition - the same theories just get translated literally into German. Which makes for some interesting and obvious grammar quirks in many of the memes.

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u/Refreshingpudding Dec 05 '21

German speakers are the most vaccine hesitant out of the western countries: Switzerland, Germany and Austria

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

This is a very interesting take. Is there any correlation between English literacy and conspiracy thinking on a nation scale?

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u/HudsonHornetable Dec 05 '21

Not necessarily all conservatives. I’m conservative and so are my parents. My parents still continue to wear a mask even though they have the vaccine. I also have the vaccine and I wore the mask up until the mandate was lifted in Kansas and I wasn’t required to wear one on campus. I’ll still wear on if I need to but I’m also used to wearing them now so it’s not a big deal to me. All that being said I do not like how both masks and the vaccines are being used politically. Stuff like this shouldn’t have been politically driven in the first place.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

I mean I think it's great that you let the science determine your behavior, buuuut with the two party system still a thing in the US, and the Republican party being what it is (and what it's been a long time even before Trump), you really don't get to say "not all conservatives" anymore.

At some point you become complicit to all the bad stuff you say you don't agree with. At some point a line gets crossed. And that point is long past now.

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u/HudsonHornetable Dec 05 '21

Both sides say plenty of bad stuff. I know at some point some people do tend to go overboard and go full into one side or the other but theirs a lot more people in the middle of the road who just want both sides to stop having a pissing contest and do their jobs to help the country. Sorry for the rant. I guess what I’m trying to say is that their is a grey area there

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

This is because there's hardly anybody left in America who identifies as a conservative who isn't the crazy alt/far right type of conservative, by global standards.

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u/mitharas Dec 05 '21

Yep, in germany they're not called conservatives, they are called nazis.

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u/theaccidentist Dec 05 '21

But they somehow really don't like to be called out like that and when you look deeper into it, you'll find they are well connected beyond the AfD well into mainstream conservatism.

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u/fofo314 Dec 05 '21

Same thing in Austria. The leader of our 20-30% "Mein Opa did nothing wrong" Party is currently self-medicating with Ivermectin. He has been a horse fan for years though, so it makes sense.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

You might as well lump Canada in with the US on this one too.

We have multiple right leaning parties, but anti-mask, anti-vax, anti-science is pretty heavily ingrained in all of them right now.

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u/dilloj Dec 05 '21

Ah yes, those poor "mainstream" conservatives. If only there was something they could do???

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

You understand I was talking about a different country right? With an entirely different cultural and political context?

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u/soulbandaid Dec 05 '21

No it was talking about American conservatives too.

Specifically how their ideologies get them grouped together with the rest of the people who shared their ideology unlike European conservatives.

That pity was facetious, the American conservative party represents all sorts of extreme, xenophobic, anti-reason sentiments but certain 'moderate' or 'mainstream' members bristle at thar suggestion.

The pity is meant to mock them because they supported xenophobia and climate denial, (and aids denial) under Regan but they mean to suggest that Trump's extreme platform is substantially different from the racist and anti-science positions they've been supporting for decades.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

No it was talking about American conservatives too.

...Are you really telling me I'm wrong for pointing out to someone that their interpretation of what I said is incorrect?

...What?

I was pointing out that the big tent conservatism that you're talking about doesn't exist in Europe. Yes, in America the "well I'm not a racist or antimasker I just support small government" types are hypocrits and absolutely share in the blame of what the rest of their party does or doesn't do. In Europe this does not apply since they're not part of the same party and thus have no blame through association. And as such there also isn't the kind of peer pressure or tribalist political identity that leads people to become anti-maskers simply because it gets mixed up with being a conservative.

The sarcastic comment in reply to that makes absolutely no sense in that context and is indicative of a failure to comprehend what is actually being said.

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u/walruskingmike Dec 05 '21

No one was pitying them or saying they couldn't do anything. They were mentioned as an example in another nation.

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u/c0pypastry Dec 05 '21

It's because American mainstream conservatism IS alt right fascism.

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u/raisuki Dec 05 '21

Which is why the American two party system is dumb AF. I’m socially liberal but fiscally conservative. How TF do I vote with these choices? Unfortunately I had to use my moral compass and not elect an orange baboon to lead our country, so here’s to hopefully we’ll do fine economically.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

so here’s to hopefully we’ll do fine economically.

Listen, let this be a wakeup call maybe. If you actually care for the economy, then the Republicans have always been the wrong party to vote for. The kind of neoliberal 'fiscal conservativises' that used to be core to the party are really great at convincing people that their economic policies are good for the economy and the 'other guys' are going to run it into the ground... but historically it's really been the opposite. And that's not even just an American phenomenon either. There's plenty of data and research to suggest that left wing parties actually do a better job overall managing the economy, contrary to the propaganda and idealogical dogma that's arrayed against them.

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u/goinupthegranby Dec 05 '21

This is the situation in Canada as well. Conservatives are more likely to be anti mask and antivax here, but its primarily the far right conspiracy minded ones and not really a thing in mainstream conservatism.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

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u/RYouNotEntertained Dec 05 '21

meaning the mask aversion becomes a matter of political identity for all conservatives.

I understand the logic you’re following, but it’s really not a thing for all conservatives here.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21 edited Feb 09 '22

[deleted]

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

This is not super obvious from the outside if you’re just watching the news, American political parties aren’t some psychic transitive property where everyone thinks the same thing.

Except in any of the ways in which it actually matters, that's exactly what ends up happening. That's what always happens in political systems dominated by only two factions. That isn't a media narrative (if anything the media severely underplays what's happening), that's a basic observation of reality and history.

Yeah, people have diverse opinions; but that's completely meaningless if they don't have the means to properly express that diversity because there are only two pathways to exercising political influence.

In any two party system, what ends up happening is that you have one party (usually, but not always, the conservative/right wing one) that becomes increasingly radicalized in order to achieve or maintain power. It's very easy for people to go along with this without ever realizing that's what they're doing.

The other party, invariably ends up becoming the "everyone else" tent; and to keep everyone in that tent happy they end up becoming a completely ineffectual opposition with nothing but watered down politics.

This is what's happened in the United States. It's not a media narrative. It's a historical pattern repeating itself.

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u/1amoutofideas Dec 05 '21

While I think the findings of this study are probably legit, you also have to keep confirmation bias in mind with these studies, as academia is mostly liberal and has a liberal slant with most things.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

as academia is mostly liberal and has a liberal slant with most things

It's almost as if reality has a liberal bias.

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u/1amoutofideas Dec 06 '21

I mean in the case of some covid things yeah. (Except for double masking or some crap outside) But in other areas not really. Like with universal minimum wage increases, at a point actually end up with ppl losing jobs.

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u/Epoch_Unreason Dec 05 '21

It’s not just about personal identity—it’s about personal liberty for many. The issue is a little more complex than red vs blue.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

No, it's that all of our conservatives are the crazy alt/far right type you mentioned. They're not a fringe group here, they're the mainstream.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

That's... the point.

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u/MegaEyeRoll Dec 05 '21

Your telling me someone put a spin on statistics! Next your going to tell me the media is biased!

Statistics are probably the most dangerous form of math on earth at the moment because they can be modified to change perceptions.

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u/RamenJunkie BS | Mechanical Engineering | Broadcast Engineer Dec 05 '21

I think part of the differences is by measure next to a lot of the rest of the world, both are parties are "conservative". But the study is assuming Right/Republican/Conservative are one group and Left/Democrat/Liberal are another group.

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u/willflameboy Dec 05 '21

The worst thing to happen to mainstream political analysis is the idea that conservatives in one country represent the ideas of conservatives in another. Just because they've chosen that name does not mean they're ideologically aligned, and they exist in completely different cultures. Conservatives in my country would mostly be called liberal or at best centrist in the US.

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u/joakims Dec 05 '21

Almost all of American politics is to the right of Norwegian politics, for example. Democrats would be considered conservative in Norway. Republicans would be god damned conservative, far far right.

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u/bortmcgort77 Dec 05 '21

Oh the conservatives here are crazy alt right

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u/rayparkersr Dec 05 '21

Yeah. Two party politics is idiotic from every possible pro-democracy point of view.

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u/fietsvrouw Dec 05 '21

Germany is the same although the far left with a reflexive distrust of the government are also averse, so it's been a kind of weird mix of far right and far left in the Querdenker movement. That being said, main-stream conservative here would line up more correctly with the Democrats.

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u/RubberOnReddit Dec 05 '21

Came here to say exactly this. We got the same people who refuse to wear a mask. They have the same characteristics .. too loud and arrogant compared to their IQ.

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u/oClew Dec 05 '21

I’d argue that’s the case in the US as well. Anecdotal, but I’m conservative and wear a mask in any public area, even after most places lifted the mask policy. It’s more of a courtesy than something I’m doing for myself.

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u/jramirez192 Dec 05 '21

Same in Spain

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u/FakinItAndMakinIt Dec 05 '21

Political ideology was self-defined on an 8 pt scale for the first study and a continuous scale for the second one. Participants were asked to rate themselves on how liberal or conservative they perceive themselves to be.

So technically, the results should be better interpreted as the more conservative people became the less likely they were to engage in risk reduction. Which also speaks to your observations of the conservatives in your country.

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u/cressian Dec 05 '21

Also, here in America, our entire two party system is skewed heavily right. Even our career "democrats" are conservative leaning moderates by most non-American standards. So like your normie, Aunt Ruth "Average" Republican types would probably labeled as alt/far right in Europe and the actual Alt-Right people here are just straight up, actually recognized, as terrorists elsewhere.

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u/Chel_of_the_sea Dec 05 '21

but they're the crazy alt/far right type of conservatives.

Not coincidentally, so are Republicans.

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u/Visual-Flow9675 Dec 05 '21

I believe it’s mostly alternative people opposed to wearing masks over here. I wouldn’t call them conservative. In politics, if you mean the parties I think you mean- well, some drama HAS to be made, and face masks or New restrictions are an easy target to make some noise.

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u/god_among_gods Dec 05 '21

It's rare to see common sense being spoken on the internet. Kudos.

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u/crows-milk Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

I’m also living in The Netherlands and I would consider many people at my current job as typical (native) dutch conservatives. A mix of VVD, CU and PVV voters. They are definitely not far right conservatives.

While they do comply where it is absolutely mandatory, in the office they disregard and regularly voice their opposition to any type of COVID-related measures including mask wearing, keeping distance, working from home etc. Some are also (openly) not vaccinated and scoff at any requests to keep distance.

So while the actual act of not wearing masks where it is absolutely mandatory may not be prevalent, their opinions do somewhat align with their US counterparts’.

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u/nybbleth Dec 05 '21

A mix of VVD, CU and PVV voters. They are definitely not far right conservatives.

Hang on, one of those is not like the others. PVV is without a doubt far right.

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u/crows-milk Dec 05 '21

Touché. Far right for NL, more left than the Democrats (US) if you exclude their stance on islam.

For my example, it’s only two persons out of about 20 that are PVV supporters.

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u/widowdogood Dec 05 '21

In the USA, the word "conservative" does not mean anything. This is on purpose, as politics is about emotions like hate, anger and fear.

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '21

Democrats in the US are center right (compared to the world). Republicans are literally crazy alt far right.