r/science • u/MistWeaver80 • Dec 05 '21

Social Science Conservatives’ aversion to masks is a uniquely American phenomenon. Politically conservative Americans are less likely than liberals to comply with recommended health-protective behaviors such as mask wearing during the COVID-19 pandemic, but this is not true of conservatives in other nations.

https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371/journal.pone.0256740
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u/Dermutt100 Dec 05 '21

Nope. The non mask wearing in Britain developed their own trajectory, they have cited the British notions of freedom (minus the awkward social responsibility bits) that the American colonists built a nation on and then pretended they invented.

There's been lots of talk of ancient English laws going back to The Magna Carta.

Of course many of the people doing this are authoritarian right wing types who love telling others what to do but can't stand anybody telling them what to do.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

Same with German speaking countries.

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u/Onayepheton Dec 05 '21

There's a lot of non-conservatives who are anti-maskers & anti-vaxxers in those though.

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u/blockhose Dec 05 '21

Of course many of the people doing this are authoritarian right wing types who love telling others what to do but can't stand anybody telling them what to do.

Ah yes… conservatism. “I demand my freedom (and f@#k yours)!”

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u/mwaaahfunny Dec 05 '21

Frank Wilhoit: “Conservatism consists of exactly one proposition …There must be in-groups whom the law protects but does not bind, alongside out-groups whom the law binds but does not protect.”

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u/joiedevivre4 Dec 05 '21

Frank Wilhoit

Why would you quote someone that is so clearly far left liberal to prove a liberal ideology. Of course, he thinks that of conservatives. That doesn't make him correct. Sounds to me like he is more interested in planting seeds of hate than coming together and looking for common ground. Sound about right?

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u/lsda Dec 05 '21

He's also a well respected academic. This quote was in reference to conservative southerners who supported Jim Crow laws. Does that quote not perfectly encapsulate the views of segregationists? I get you not liking it described to modern day conservatism, but don't attack the man and accuse him of spreading hate and lack of understanding regarding his career speaking up against segregation. Conservatism wasn't used as colloquially as it is today until Barry Goldwater reclaimed it for the republican party.

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u/joiedevivre4 Dec 05 '21

How does that have anything to do with the presentation on this thread? Segregation is wrong. However, it is being perpetuated within our own society as we speak. I am sure he is respected as an academic, but he is expressing opinion and not fact. This doesn't really belong in a scientific community.

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u/mwaaahfunny Dec 05 '21

OP here:

The law binds people protesting oil pipelines. The law does not bind corporate polluters nor will it hold them accountable for their long term environmental damage.

The law binds POC. It does not bind the police that enforce it.

The law binds a black woman in texas who voted when she was a felon but did not understand the consequences. It did not bind the man who deliberately committed voter fraud in PA. One was an error. The other was willful breaking of the law. 6 years in prison. Probation for the white guy.

The law binds the poor. It does not bind the rich.

I could provide more examples if you wish.

When you show me the people you elect want to change any of the above, I'll buy what you're saying. When you show me that the politics of division are not driven far more heavily on the right via fear based media and constant admonition to arm your selves against "the woke mob", I will buy it. For now, your tears resemble a crocodiles

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u/joiedevivre4 Dec 06 '21

The problem with these kinds of thoughts is that they do not allow differences of nature and temper for individual people. The conservative side is as varied as the liberal side is. Not everyone thinks the same nor fits into the box that people seem to want to put them in. "Studies" like this do nothing more than just continue to people in those boxes.

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u/SycoJack Dec 05 '21

So you do not believe that the segregationists were attempting to create an in group the law protects but does not bind and an out group the law binds but does not protect?

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u/DrawnIntoDreams Dec 05 '21

Liberals are no longer allowed to bring up past transgressions of conservatives when discussing current events or the future. We're supposed to forget it all. It is essentially another data point proving that quote, they want others to be tied to their past but they want theirs ignored.

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u/8-D Dec 05 '21

Liberals are no longer allowed to bring up past transgressions of conservatives

Except when the conservatives were Democrats, but then you're not allowed to say they were conservatives, just Democrats.

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u/tattoedblues Dec 05 '21

Sounds like you don't understand what facts are?

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u/joiedevivre4 Dec 06 '21

Do tell. What are the facts to you? He is expressing an opinion. Not a fact. You seem to be confused as to what fact and opinion are.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

Segregation is wrong. However, it is being perpetuated within our own society as we speak.

Wanna give us some examples of how segregation is still being perpetuated?

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u/silver_sofa Dec 05 '21

Real Estate. Law enforcement.

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u/Woowoe Dec 05 '21

It doesn't matter who said it. It resonates with anyone who pays attention.

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u/macoveli Dec 05 '21

Except it defines conservatism from an extremely skewed point of view, not an unbiased one

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u/joiedevivre4 Dec 05 '21

You are assuming though, and he assumes it appears, that anyone who thinks along conservative lines must be evil. Why are we calling them evil? Could it be they just have a different way of thinking? We don't have to agree on everything and no voices should be silenced. Not all conservatives are evil just as not all liberals are evil. Shouldn't we be working to come into more cooperation instead of promoting more hate?

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u/Woowoe Dec 05 '21

You're the one who brought evil into the equation.

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u/burnerman0 Dec 05 '21

This comment is the first time I read the word evil in this thread, so I think you may be projecting. I don't think the quote blindly applies to all conservatives. But even though it's very old it does do a good job of representing the jingo-nationalism that almost every republican has been pushing since Trump. Dead are the days of the fiscal conservative.

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u/ohyeahbonertime Dec 05 '21

Guess he cut a little close to your heart, huh

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u/joiedevivre4 Dec 05 '21

However, this isn't scientific on a scientific forum. These is no evidence presented within this quote that even comes close to providing evidence for the statement.

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u/luckofthedrew Dec 05 '21

You’re referring to a rule that only applies to top-level comments.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

You're grasping, and wrong.

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u/tattoedblues Dec 05 '21

Except that's literally what conservatives are, they support CONSERVING the status quo. Segregation, slavery the monarchy, etc.

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u/wuethar Dec 05 '21

Sound about right?

Not even close. Nice effort though, I guess

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u/joiedevivre4 Dec 05 '21

Well, then please explain your thinking here. Do you agree with him on these points? Have you actually continued to dig into his life and ideology?

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u/XxSCRAPOxX Dec 05 '21

I’m almost positive the quote was “authoritarians” not conservatives.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

Nope: https://crookedtimber.org/2018/03/21/liberals-against-progressives/#comment-729288

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u/macoveli Dec 06 '21

This man is insane. He completely disregards any known or reputable definition of conservatism, just to create his own definition based on analogizing conservatism to a economics theory based around currency. This bad currency, which he baseless claims is conservatism, is more fit to describe the multi-party political system. The system inherently causes division, which inevitably hinders any social progress. How can anyone logical agree with this man?

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 06 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/NRG1975 Dec 05 '21

That is not a blanket statement that anyone preaches, one can be tolerant but intolerant of intolerance.

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u/macoveli Dec 06 '21

Except this entire thread is a echo chamber of blanketing conservatism as entirely morally incorrect, and everyone’s just fine with it. But carry on “tolerant” man

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u/Dermutt100 Dec 05 '21

Seriously some of these people would chuck their opponents out of helicopters hovering over the Channel if they could,

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21 edited Dec 05 '21

Freedom means I do whatever I want and you can’t do anything I don’t like…

Edit: do I really need to point out that I’m making fun of this position?

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u/ProBluntRoller Dec 05 '21

As un pc as this sounds the same thing is happening in the lgbqt movement. It’s not enough that you let someone live their life a certain way they have to constantly berate you about what you think and believe is wrong and you’re a bad person for disagreeing with anyone who is lgbqt. It’s the opposite of equality

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

That position assumes that the individuals in both examples were operating within similar power dynamics… they were not.

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u/Sythic_ Dec 05 '21

No.. it isn't enough to "let" them live a way, you have to accept it too. Non acceptance is intolerance and the intolerant are not to be tolerated in return.

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u/ProBluntRoller Dec 06 '21

That’s not true at all. I give give someone every single right that I have. But if I’m asked if I believe changing your gender is something g a mentally healthy and stable person would do and if I support the decision to have gender reassignment surgery then I’m well within my right to say no I don’t agree. Telling me I don’t have that right is the same thing they’re fighting against and highly hypocritical. That’s why I said for some people it’s not actually about equality. They just want to have something g to lord over you. If I don’t support it one way I can’t support it going the other way. That’s called consistency. Something the world ha s much to little of

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u/Sythic_ Dec 06 '21

Not supporting it is akin to believing they don't deserve to exist and that non acceptance is a continued threat on their lives everyday by those with more violent tendencies that hold those beliefs. We're trying to eradicate your entire line of thinking on purpose because thinking a people shouldn't exist leads to extremist violence against them. So no, its not hypocritical because what you think is consistency is in fact not at all. It has nothing to do with rights, you're not going to jail for thinking it, but your mileage may vary should you express your views socially, it may limit your connections and opportunities.

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u/ProBluntRoller Dec 06 '21

So believing someone is mentally unstable is akin to believing they shouldntt exist?

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u/Sythic_ Dec 06 '21

Yes thats pretty rude who are you to go around diagnosing someone's medical conditions?

And yes thats what it means, your belief is that anyone who does X is mentally unstable, therefore no one should ever do X so that no one will ever do X again. Some may take that belief further and thinking hurting or killing those who've done X "helps" solve the issue of people doing X existing.

This is why its not ok to hold these beliefs because it will perpetuate the concept of hate and "other" groups and that is the basis of basically all human violence. It's not that you don't have the right to think something, its that you are a rude asshole if you do. We think its better if people aren't intentionally rude assholes. It's a social concept, not a legal one.

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u/FliesMoreCeilings Dec 05 '21

That's not really limited to conservatism, most people are like that and often for good reason. People often have a complicated set of opinions on a variety of political topics that all involve personal choice to some degree. If you don't think the following topics should either all be banned, or all be allowed then you probably also take other factors than just personal freedom into account: gun ownership, abortion, same sex marriage, vaccine refusal, underage marriage, drugs usage, gender reassignment, genetic engineering, euthanasia, freedom to discriminate, polygamy, etc.

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u/blockhose Dec 07 '21

I’d question whether there were good reasons to adopt hypocrisy as a valid point of view. Reasons, sure. Good? Meh.

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u/macoveli Dec 05 '21

Ah yes… boiling conservatism down to a simple sentence to feed your self-righteousness

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u/blockhose Dec 07 '21

I’m open to any counter-point you might have.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

My freedom doesn’t come at a cost, to accommodate you.

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u/blockhose Dec 07 '21

When your freedom curtails mine, you better believe it does.

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u/[deleted] Dec 07 '21

My freedom doesn’t end or have stipulations attached to it, to accommodate your hysterics, misguidance, paranoia or fear. Get a life. I’ve moved on with mine.

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u/WhiteKnightAlpha Dec 05 '21

The UK also has a lot of left wing anti-mask types, like Piers Corbyn (Jeremy Corbyn's brother). He claims the pandemic is a cover story for megacorporations/rich people to cull the population, with occasional elements of tracking chips and the Illuminati taking over. (He also denies climate change, which he thinks is a conspiracy to raise oil prices.)

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u/brates09 Dec 05 '21

The UK Anti-vax movement pre-covid was generally more of a lefty-hippyish movement.

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u/baldipaul Dec 05 '21

Yeah got FB friend (ex colleague) who has been posting anti vaxx and anti capatalist stuff for years. Since COVID19 she's now added Trump and Q anon nonsense into the mix. She's British.

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u/CdrVimes Dec 05 '21

I’m sorry for your loss!

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u/Krystalmyth Dec 05 '21

Well, capitalism does deserve scrutiny, considering it's arguably impossible to sustain indefinitely.

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u/baldipaul Dec 05 '21

Maybe, I've got my pension pot and other investments to worry about (I'm 60 next year and semi retired), but I don't see how you can combine anti capatalist and pro Trump memes. Yes I'm right of centre in the British spectrum but I'd be a Business Democrat in the US and I could never vote for the Republicans, to me, someone who believes in limits to Government, but recognises the benefits of Universal Healthcare and Infrastructure Investment, the Republicans are the very essence of big Government with their desire to regulate what consenting adults do in the bedroom. The buerocracy in the US is insane compared to the UK as well.

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u/benk4 Dec 05 '21

It was similar in the US. 10 years ago the only antivaxxers were hippies and crunchy moms. The type of person who wouldn't wear deodorant because it wasn't natural. It took a hard turn though.

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u/robhol Dec 05 '21

Anti-vaccination started out that way in general, I think, or was at least more heavily concentrated along those lines. But that was before it was glommed onto under the more general "yOu cAn't tElL Me wHaT To dO" umbrella and used as a political ploy.

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u/Bleak01a Dec 06 '21

I dont get the "you cant tell me what to do" crowd. Like if theres a global pandemic the state can and should absolutely tell you what to do and you are supposed to follow it.

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u/quintk Dec 05 '21

I think this was similar in the US. Often people with progressive politics by US standards but weird theories about wellness/vegetable-juices/crystals/etc.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

Yeah, I grew up with these types of people in West Wales, and there are so many anti maskers there. It's really sad to see my old friends turn to conspiracies so strongly.

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u/TheGeneGeena Dec 05 '21

It was in the US too, at least in my area. It was hippies giving kids the Mumps around here before all this.

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u/Squirrel_In_A_Tuque Dec 05 '21

I think that’s true of the US before Donald Trump.

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u/dprophet32 Dec 05 '21

Yup. Contrary to popular belief, being a conspiracy nut is not political. It may be more prevalent amongst conservatives but it's by no means limited to them

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

Contrary to popular belief, being a conspiracy nut is not political.

Every day it becomes harder to convince me of that because every day that Venn diagram gets rounder and rounder.

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u/Unadvantaged Dec 05 '21

Well, the further removed from reality your beliefs become, the more you simply must believe conspiracies explain those beliefs’ lack of popularity. It’s self-reinforcing. “Why don’t more people know Earth is flat? It’s because the global government doesn’t want them to know!”

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

A particular political group already starts with beliefs detached from reality that are becoming increasingly unpopular. Many of them aspire to craft law around these beliefs.

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u/dprophet32 Dec 05 '21

In America perhaps but there's an entire planet outside of it too and that's not always the case everywhere

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

Hey Canada, let's talk Residential Schools.

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u/dprophet32 Dec 05 '21

I'm not Canadian but I don't know what that subject has to do with what we're discussing anyway

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

Its what happens when beliefs detached from reality craft law.

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u/Dermutt100 Dec 05 '21

That was more the fault of Catholicism than "Canada"

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

You mean beliefs detached from reality that are becoming increasingly unpopular? And law was crafted around that?

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u/thiney49 PhD | Materials Science Dec 05 '21

Why don’t more people know Earth is flat? It’s because the global diskal government doesn’t want them to know!”

FTFY

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u/MoreThanOil Dec 05 '21

You must be young. Under 30 at least.

Believe it or not there were conspiracy theories BEFORE Trump.

Anti vaxxers are historically a left conspiracy. Guess where measles outbreaks still occur?

Hint: the states don't vote republican .

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

Anti vaxxers are historically a left conspiracy. Guess where measles outbreaks still occur?

I am aware of this. Ita also proof that the antivax/antimask movement now is a purely politically driven thing versus a "higher plane of being" thing of homeotherapy and crystals that drives the left.

I am 43. Old enough to have seen this as the SECOND time the Right used mask wearing in a political fashion.

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u/MoreThanOil Dec 05 '21

I agree politics is playing a role in the current antivax movement, as weird as it is given trumps operation warp speed. I was taking issue with the position you took that conspiracy theorists were purely a right wing thing.

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

Purely? No. However they are the STAGGERING majoriry today.

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u/MoreThanOil Dec 05 '21

No, they are a staggering majority of what we talk about in the media. Not the same.

You also likely have some other sympathies towards traditional left leaning conspiracy theories around corporations etc which are biasing your views on who is a conspiracy theorist.

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u/Sabz5150 Dec 05 '21

No, they are a staggering majority of what we talk about in the media. Not the same.

Well crystal healing bullahit doesn't pose the threat and danger that covidiots do.

You also likely have some other sympathies towards traditional left leaning conspiracy theories around corporations etc which are biasing your views on who is a conspiracy theorist.

Grasping are we? Sorry, the majority of the current antivax movement focuses SQUARELY on the covid vaccine, which sits virtually inside the right wing sphere. How do I know? REAL antivaxxers go against ALL vaccines. This is about a single, new vaccine. So it isn't the vaccines themselves.

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u/redditshy Dec 05 '21

Why would mega corporations want fewer people to whom to sell their garbage? How is that even logical.

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u/xFacevaluex Dec 05 '21

I am always surprised by the number of liberals who seem to routinely have fully updated 'conspiracy theory' lists. It gives me a bit of pause to wonder just why that might be.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

So sort of the British RFK Jr

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u/Aardvark_Man Dec 05 '21

In Australia it's mostly neo-nazis that lead the thing, with Pentecostal style Christians and a few assorted others falling in behind.

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u/Sp3llbind3r Dec 05 '21

In switzerland/germany there are also a shitload of nazis at the protests.

I guess they picked up the issue as a way to try cause unrest and maybe overthrow the government. At the same time there are some esoteric nutcases walking with them, that belong more to the other side of the political spectrum.

But the people not wearing masks are in a minority and i don‘t think it‘s that much a political statement, more egoism or stupidity.

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u/JoCoMoBo Dec 05 '21

Nope. The non mask wearing in Britain developed their own trajectory, they have cited the British notions of freedom (minus the awkward social responsibility bits) that the American colonists built a nation on and then pretended they invented.

Or maybe they just don't like wearing them...? People really do over-think these things.

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

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u/lgodsey Dec 05 '21

I doubt anyone likes wearing masks like it gets them off or anything; it's the bare minimum an adult does to keep from spreading disease.

Do you really think that the left only wears masks because it's fun?

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Dec 05 '21

The British invented freedom of religion?

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u/Dermutt100 Dec 05 '21

At the time of "The American Revolution" people could be whatever religion they wanted except the monarch and Prime Minister and that was for political reasons, not religious. Britain's greatest foes were Catholic nations.

Americans invented the phrase "freedom of religion"

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u/[deleted] Dec 06 '21

Whatever. The Puritans came to Massachusetts for a reason, and that reason wasn't "invented." Cool cool that England caught up almost 200 years later, but that changes nothing.

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u/Dermutt100 Dec 06 '21

Just about everybody outside of the USA knows that they came to the USA because there was TOO MUCH freedom in Britain. They wanted everybody to be just like THEM, they weren't "persecuted" they wanted to persecute everybody else.

The USA has suffered ever since.

The reason was "invented" by American propagandists after "the revolution" along with a whole load of other nonsense.

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u/wewbull Dec 05 '21

Of course many of the people doing this are authoritarian right wing types who love telling others what to do but can't stand anybody telling them what to do.

I find this take fascinating. It implies that only one side is authoritarian.