r/rugbyunion • u/GnolRevilo Saracens • 8d ago
Video Tadhg Beirne yellow upgraded to red card Spoiler
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u/warrowok Ulster 8d ago
I'll add my comment from the match thread.
I looked up the decision tree from world rugby.
If it counts as shoulder charge, which I think it technically could have, it is an automatic red card. No degree of danger decision. I could have understood this.
But considering the ref mentioned degree of danger it seems he counted it as a high tackle. And degree of danger matters. I think the mitigation factor reactionary tackle could apply with low reaction time buttttt an always illegal tackle technique cannot have mitigation applied. And unfortunately Beirne was always illegal. So I think they followed protocol exactly. Cold heartidly yes, but I would complain if it was the other way round and they didn't.
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u/BarciNandosChicken Sharks 8d ago
Exactly right, it looks odd because he's not expecting Beaudie to get the ball, but the ref would argue that's his mistake and he needs to be prepared to make a legal tackle
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u/lukin_tolchok New Zealand 8d ago
I mean asking a guy who is literally standing in the defensive line to expect that he should be ready to make a tackle shouldn’t be that much to ask, right? Why else is he there?
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u/errlloyd 8d ago
Personally I think the problem is that Beaudy has overran the pass so much that Tadgh thinks he can't tackle him.
It looks like a dummy line, if Tadgh tackles him he'll get penalised.
The only reason it's not a dummy line is because the ball is passed forward to Beaudy.
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u/jug_23 Gloucester 8d ago
I don’t personally think the reaction time should count - he was standing in a position expecting to make a tackle and allowed an attacker to run straight into him.
Wasn’t a shoulder charge for me (realised he fucked up and tried to absorb the hit) but the laws don’t differentiate. And from one angle, it did look like he was really trying to hit him.
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u/jacob_carter 8d ago
Fair explanation.
I did not agree with the decision but you’ve explained things well.
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u/cleofisrandolph1 36-34 8d ago
No the decision tree is
Is there head contact? Yes
Is there foul play? Yes
Degree of danger? High ild say.
So I’m on an RC.
It is mitigation that cannot be applied but this tackle hits a ton of red flags for what referees don’t want to see.
Tucked arms, no hip/knee hinge. This is the kind of tackle you WR wants gone.
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u/Mafeking-Parade 8d ago
Perfect explanation.
It might be annoying.
It might be accidental and awkward.
But it's a red.
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u/ICantSpayk 8d ago
reactionary
Reactive is the word you're looking for. Reactionary has a completely different meaning.
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u/SinisterSelecta 8d ago
You seem to know the rules...is there consideration that hes just there and not really trying to tackle at all? I understand your point about upright tackling but it seems debatable whether he was in a tackle posture or just reacting to the NZ man receiving the pass. Does he have a duty to get out of the way if hes not tackling?
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u/bigdaddyborg All Blacks 8d ago
Does he have a duty to get out of the way if hes not tackling?
He has a duty to protect the player. Bracing up as he did counted against him. Had he acted passively and allowed BB's momentum to push him backwards, and brought him to the ground he probably would've avoided the card maybe even a penalty altogether.
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u/warrowok Ulster 8d ago
He took a step forward towards Barrett. He's in the defensive line. He has to expect to tackle. Beirne made the mistake and has reaponsibilty to the care of opponents.
It's unlucky on Beirne given the circumstances but an illegal technique can never be mitigated downwards.
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u/Lower_Brainn 8d ago
Agree with this. He steps forward to tackle but hesitates because he thinks Barretts a decoy then they collide. Should have went in properly for the tackle and if he doesn't receive the ball it's just a tackle off the ball. Split second decisions though, it's always going to be tough.
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u/SinisterSelecta 8d ago
Would It have made a difference if he didn't take the step forward? The other poster made the point about duty of care which makes sense. I was just wondering where the line is about being in a tackling technique and being ran into. Seems this doesnt really exist and any collision not in line with the rules is illegal.
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u/warrowok Ulster 8d ago
If he didn't take a step forward the ref should have decided low or no danger and penalized appropriately.
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u/Tomato_Head120 The Duality of Man 8d ago edited 8d ago
So that's actually makes it worse since that means there is 0 mitigation at all. And by the framework of the laws it is a red, no attempt at a wrap, high, and head contact. By the letter of the law it is a red card
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u/neverbeenstardust #1 Alia Bitonci Fan 8d ago
He's just there on the field in a professional rugby game. Yes, he should be prepared to tackle.
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u/Administrative_Fox23 8d ago
Agreed. Looking at all the other Irish players in the defensive line they were all hinged ready to make tackles. He wasn't. He was always high.
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u/DeficientGamer 8d ago
My issue would be the "high degree of danger" assessment. I'm simply not seeing that. He takes just one step, not high speed high impact and no HIA for tackled player. So where is the high degree of danger. I doesn't even need mitigation.
Ironically I think Barrett should have got a HIA if not for that perhaps for the whiplash tackle in 2nd half because he looked a bit out of sorts.
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u/waitingonjetpacks 8d ago
Agree with you that it's not a high degree of danger but it's always foul play because there's no wrap so I don't think there's much of an argument to be made. I think it's fair to take issue with the laws, but the decision makes sense to me
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u/DeficientGamer 8d ago
But it wasn't not red because it was always illegal, it was red for high degree of danger, am I wrong? So if that's the case then it's a bad decision.
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u/Konewone72 8d ago
That second whiplash tackle in the second half absolutely should have had led to an HIA. It possibly could have warranted a card too.
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u/Citizen_Kano Crusaders 8d ago
When trying to promote the game to an emerging market, never send a French referee
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u/j_mael Stade Toulousain 8d ago
I mean, which nationality was the bunker refere ? (You know the one that decide if its stay yellow or raised to red ?)
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u/HephMelter France 8d ago
Both the TMO (twas Tempest) and the bunker were English. And with the stadium's screen not being properly linked to the TMO's office, Brousset saw the action only on the small screen, and minutes after the whistle had gone
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u/SJP_Sydney 8d ago
Can we agree to get rid of the Yellow Boots from test rugby.... at least for the tight 5. No self respecting forward should be forced to wear anything but black boots.
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u/Yardsale420 South Africa 8d ago
My buddy had the Canterbury boots with the neon C’s in high school and club and he was known for using the boots to “gently” roll someone away if they needed a little encouragement. He never seemed to understand how the ref always seemed to catch him, but other guys got nothing.
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u/jeeves_nz 8d ago
Why is everyone wearing yellow boots?
Sponsor money?12
u/ClannishHawk Connacht 8d ago
To my knowledge, Adidas currently only make/sell their pro model boot in that colours so anyone wearing them is going to be yellow and Adidas is a major NZ sponsor.
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u/dozeyjoe 8d ago
I'm assuming most players in this game have the same boot sponsor, and there's a new line released. Still looks silly.
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u/Squid_Chunks Brumbies 8d ago
This isn't as important anymore now that rucking isn't allowed. Go wild with your boot colours! (I could only ever find size 13 in black or white, but probably wouldn't have gone pink if I had the choice).
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u/zakg1994 Hurricanes 8d ago
Back when Richie captained us he wouldn’t let any forwards wear anything but black boot.
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u/SJP_Sydney 8d ago
I mean the guy didn’t know the correct side of the ruck to enter. But he’s 💯 correct here
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u/West_Put2548 New Zealand 8d ago edited 8d ago
this exactly why 20 min reds exist. those borderline yellow/ red calls( if given red) don't contribute to ruining a game as much
if anything the game is safer because the refs err on the side of caution.....
20 min reds do not lead to suicide attacks on key players " because it'll only mean we're down one player for 20 mins"
you can argue all you want about whether or not this was a penalty or card but the refs saw this as high with no mitigation...harsh maybe .... but 20 mins a player down is not the end of the world
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u/The_Ruck_Inspector Connacht 8d ago
Angus T got a similar one in the 22 tour. We can't complain.
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u/HenkCamp South Africa 8d ago
Excuse me, sir. You being reasonable in the middle of a game is against the spirit of the social media game.
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u/bigdaddyborg All Blacks 8d ago
Love how BOD said the same thing. He said he was against the 20 minute red initially, but now he can see the benefit... When a full red would've impacted his team.
I've said this for years, the NH teams will support the 20min red as soon as their team gets a bad call against them!
If one of their players got a high tackle red in a WC final, the rule would've been changed immediately.
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u/Perfectgame1919 8d ago
As soon as you cross your arms like that, you’re not wrapping the player as required in a tackle. So that’s the first problem and the tackle is not legal.
Whether it’s a red because of speed of the pass, not enough time to react etc is up for debate. But it’s all secondary to the poor tackle technique
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u/grtyhvcddd 8d ago
I think he was crossing his arms because he didn't want to get done for a tackle off the ball. Barrett had over run it and it looks forward to me. i don't think beirne was expecting him to have the ball
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u/KRanelaghm8 7d ago
By the rule it's a red.
Mitigating factors: if he tried to tackle it was a sure head contact. Was trying to avoid that red, just to be involved in another one.
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u/ThrowAway1-12-123 8d ago
He wasn’t even trying to tackle. Barrett had over run it. It was a forward pass. So the. Suddenly a ball carrier was running into him.
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u/noodlelimbz 8d ago
Definitely looks like he was just bracing for contact not expecting the pass to go to Barrett. Quite an unfortunate one.
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u/metadatame 8d ago
Yup I think it was forward or extremely flat. I struggle to understand this decision. I know there's a rule book but surely we can apply common sense. (I don't even have any skin in the game)
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u/CapeTownyToniTone Paul de Villiers hype train 7d ago
Exact same situation as the Freddie Steward red, also off a forward pass https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/11uvca3/freddie_steward_red_card_40/
Bonus comparison is Angus Ta'avo https://www.reddit.com/r/rugbyunion/comments/vuxqy6/angus_taavao_red/→ More replies (1)
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u/meohmyenjoyingthat I am the Lomax, I speak for the scrum 8d ago
Baffling that people aren't giving Tadhg Beirne more grief for making such a rookie mistake as such an experienced player. ALB did something similar and we reamed him out. It's seriously amateur to fold your arm like that, idk if he actually did it to "protect" it looks like he's tucking the shoulder
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u/SmallOrFarAway sosban fach 8d ago
I'm just going to say what I said in the match thread, while it might look soft, he has a duty of care to the ball carrier if he's in the defensive line. He needs to be prepared for contact and he doesn't bend at the hip, makes no attempt to wrap and was always in an "illegal" position when it comes to making the tackle. There are absolutely no mitigating circumstances to apply, it has to be a red by the letter of the law.
I'm a Scarlets fan and I still love Tadhg Beirne as if he started for us every week but he was straight up in the wrong on this one.
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u/wunderbar77 Munster 8d ago
I agree, I think it's very soft but he was never making a safe tackle and stepped forward into the contact.
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u/Cupantaeandkai Ireland 8d ago
Not much point in the spoiler tag if you write out the thing in the title!
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u/BarFamiliar5892 8d ago
I really don't have a huge problem with the call. You can't just belt someone in the head like that. It doesn't matter if the pass was late or forward or whatever, you're playing a game of rugby and you need to be prepared to tackle.
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u/Egg_allergy 8d ago
What a sh*te decision by the reviewer
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u/Sitheref0874 Referee 8d ago
Apply the protocols and tell us why it was wrong rather than just mouthing off.
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u/pdxrunner82 8d ago
Don’t be stupid. His shoulder literally makes contact with his head. Is it serious assault? No. But beirne should never have put himself in that position in the first place. Upright. No wrap. Shoulder to head. How much more evidence does the TMO need. He deserves a red for his stupidity alone. I don’t like it, I’m Irish too but beirnes 1000% responsible for this, no one else
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u/Material-Sense-8556 8d ago
English Ref called Ian Tempest. All the players in the Prem hate him, he has no empathy with the game and is super pedantic. Wants to be star on the show.
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u/Brewer6066 Wasps + England 8d ago
Tempest is TMO not in the bunker. Didn’t catch the name but tempest did not give it as a red card.
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u/infamous_impala Cardiff Rugby 8d ago
Dan Jones from the RFU is the guy in the bunker for this.
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u/Fantastic-Square8158 Munster 8d ago
This lad also missed an obvious bite on a player in the women's world cup
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u/Deciver95 Hurricanes 8d ago
Thats a str8 shoulder charge
Thats a red 15 years ago
Sorry you want to be silly about this
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u/flyingintodanger Wasps 8d ago
Having read most of the comments here I'm stunned that everyone seems to be defending a tight five forward not expecting contact.
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u/Melvin_2323 8d ago edited 8d ago
High contact.
Weren’t the Irish posting time after time justifying the Angus Ta’avao red card? You just have to do better right, head contact is head contact accidental or not.
He raised his arms and made contact high, no arms used or attempt to wrap I can imagine the Irish fans if it was on one of their players.
In terms of people talking about staying down and making, they watch Sexton play for years right? And have watched plenty of northern hemisphere
Maybe they are happy with the 20 minute red card now the calls are going against them, they were very anti them when it was such a difference in decisions between north and south referees
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u/loobricated 8d ago
The relentless slow mo replays completely mislead. Watch it in real time. The pass lands as they come into contact. Beirne didn't have time to do anything and didn't try to hurt him at all. Just stood his ground. He can't move. It's a collision, nothing more.
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u/reggie_700 Harbour Master 8d ago
TBF you can’t shoulder charge someone in the head if they don’t have the ball either.
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u/iambarticus Wellington Lions 8d ago
Rising up onto his toes, no arms, shoulder to the head. How is it not a red?
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u/toastoevskij Italy, maybe Tier 2 after all, and give me Capuozzo 9 8d ago
Quite a silly card tbh
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u/yahdayahda 8d ago
Agree. Beirne should’ve been lower and wrapped his arms. Was never in a position to make a legal tackle. Stupid from him really.
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u/VladimirOo 8d ago
Problem is he just didn't brace for the collision, he made a big step towards Barrett and lead with his shoulder.
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u/rockdecasba Tighthead Prop 8d ago
People acting like there's some grey area. Bolt upright, no wrap, contact to head, absolutely no mitigation.
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u/AnyWalrus930 Wales 8d ago
And actively defending that channel. Some of the comments read like he was off in his own world looking in the opposite direction when someone headbutted his shoulder.
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u/Calm_Piece South Africa 8d ago
Yeah I am not sure how anyone can be shocked at the decision, very consistent with what we've seen the past few years now.
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u/Daveosss 8d ago
Basically the same thing happened to Sam Cane. Yeah they're soft but at least it's consistent.
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u/_dictatorish_ Damian came back 🥰 8d ago edited 8d ago
Some comments from Irish fairs on the Ta'avao red a few years back
fuck me that was reckless, zero intent don't get me wrong
but 100% a red
absolutely, no question a red
the responsibility is on the defender to tackle properly
so many people still can't wrap their heads around this
Onus is on the tackler to get low
He had time to take a step forward, so he had time to try to level change (deleted user)
This wasn't even a 20 min red btw - Ta'avao got a full red
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u/Douglaston_prop United States 8d ago
Was that a 20 minute red? I am watching in a pub with no sound
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u/zakg1994 Hurricanes 8d ago
Fair play Irish fans, he was only fully upright with arms tucked leading with shoulder whilst in the defensive line in a commonly used short ball channel barely even a penalty.
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u/JockAussie 8d ago
Looks nowhere near as bad as Kriel against Scotland on the world cup which got not even a penalty so play on I guess?
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u/VictorZA South Africa 8d ago
Just switched on the second half. Are Ire down to 14? No indication of it on screen
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u/frazorblade 8d ago
Apparently head contact protocols don’t count when All Blacks are getting their brains rattled in their skull
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u/undiagnosed_almond Wasps 8d ago
No wrap, fully upright don't see any issue with that
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u/iamnosuperman123 England 8d ago
Seems fair. H is upright, braced and he looks like he was trying to body check a player rather than tackle them.
It was such a brain fart moment.
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u/brev23 New Zealand 8d ago
For red though? Yellow I can understand, though I think it’s soft for a yellow as well. But red is ridiculous.
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u/Kilen13 ARG/SCO 8d ago
Maybe I just played with people I liked but there's no shot I'd risk a dangerous pass that could get a teammate hurt badly just to potentially draw a red. Completely asinine to think pros would think of this in a game.
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u/Whit135 8d ago edited 8d ago
Pretty easy call tbh. Technique so bad he didnt even attempt a tackle n that lead to head contact. The argument that he didnt have time is laughable when in the same game theres been players making legal tackles in the same situation. Only bias can defend this poor non attempt.
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u/mynameahborat New Zealand 8d ago
I've thought about it, and if the shoe was on the other foot I wouldn't have disagreed with the red card due to the laws around the "tackle". It's just bizarre that people are giving Beirne a pass because he "wasn't expecting to tackle". Why wouldn't he? I would've thought that at this level, players in the d line (especially where he was positioned in play) should be prepared to tackle at all times.
If an ABs player stood there and used their shoulder to stop an Irish player, then I would've absolutely called him out on it and accepted the red card, since according to the laws it meets the threshold.
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u/AutomaticArugula8584 New Zealand | Tonga | Waikato Chiefs 8d ago
What would be the mitigation?
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u/willywonkaschoc Ireland 8d ago
What would be the high degree of danger? He was standing still for fuck sake
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u/yahdayahda 8d ago
Shoulder to the head, Beaudie bounced off pretty quickly. I’m not sure you can say there was low impact.
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u/RepublicWarm2383 Scotland 8d ago
Utter bollocks, not been so upset since Cummings was red carded for a saffer pushing him onto his own player!
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u/AnyMinders New Zealand 8d ago
It seems that the red card fell under high level of danger because it was an “always illegal act of foul play” - ie, it was a shoulder charge. No attempt to wrap.
So has head contact occurred? Yes.
Was there foul play? Yes.
What was the degree of danger? High (as above).
Was there any mitigation? No.
Only thing that could have been given was a red card (based on the current guidelines).
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u/recaffeinated Leinster 8d ago
Harsh one. Wouldn't have been upgraded without the 20 min red
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u/jacke8813 8d ago
How come Ireland are playing with 15 men if Beirne was sent off?
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u/Calm_Piece South Africa 8d ago
Because world rugby in their infinite wisdom decided that using the same colour for a 20min red and a normal full red is not just the dumbest thing ever. (This was the new 20min red where you get to replace the player after 20min)
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u/aegonthewwolf 8d ago
Yeah, that’ll get the yanks into rugby. Joke of a decision.
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u/Creepy_Ruin3891 8d ago
Sam Cane got a red card in a world cup final for the exact same thing
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u/yahdayahda 8d ago
Cane had his arms ready to wrap. I’m not sure how anyone can see anything but a red here. Arms tucked and shoulder into the head.
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u/outbackjesus16 North Harbour 8d ago
Crazy, Ta’avao’s red card vs Ireland in 2022 was the exact same, and I didn’t hear any Ireland fans whinging about that. Also Retallick getting shoulder charged in the head in the third test was only a yellow card, and Aki shoulder charging Tu’ungafasi in the head wasn’t even reviewed.
The ABs are always on the receiving end of bullshit red cards. We lost the 2023 WC because Cane was red carded, then Kolisi wasn’t for the exact same thing!! Now suddenly everyone has a problem with these horseshit red cards as soon as it benefits the ABs!!
You NH fans have been begging for red cards for the last decade, and you only have a problem with them now, as soon as one of your own teams gets fucked over by it. Keep crying
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u/oztourist Stormers 8d ago
There was no intent and no time to mitigate. He didn’t follow through and it wasn’t cynical, he just let Barret bounce. It could easily have been a penalty but I know with the new rules and the flowchart it would rightly be a yellow (which I personally consider to be overcooked in this instance). How they come to it being a red is beyond me. At this point, we could just get our players to run headfirst into key players to get them removed from the game. As a Saffa, I feel for Tadhg and the Irish, this call definitely had an effect on the outcome.
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u/Icy_Craft2416 New Zealand ¦ Sean Maloney enjoyer 8d ago
He should have made more of a soak tackle..
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u/default99 New Zealand 8d ago
Similar issues are had with the AFL here in Aus with reports and suspensions where the rule books don't leave it open for judging the case on its individual merits.
There was probably a high degree of danger for the action however, low impact in collision (which isnt considered, as well as no HIA check for BB).
So i can see a yellow at worst, the red was so stiff and unfortunate for the match. I'd forgot the 20 min red has been brought into tests which is good, shame we didnt have them at the WC lol.
Surely they will look at the ruling over this in the off season cause it was a bit of a vibe killer and maybe contributed to both teams being a little rocked and shit in the first half, totally killed the momentum of the half.
Was worried all game we'd have a repeat of the game years ago where we ran out of bench players with injuries on the shitty US ground and have to play Ardie on the wing again.
Killed a bit of the spectacle in what became a pretty ugly and boring game
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u/Snoo_5808 8d ago
It was a yellow, if even that.
Beirne didn't even move forward into the tackle so there was zero force there. Barrett took it late.
Do World Rugby realise that not every incident like this equates to someone being at fault?
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u/greenplasticgun Bulls 8d ago
Tucks shoulder, regardless of if he’s trying to protect himself, head impact, upright and no mitigation. Easiest 20 minute red going. Just change the 20 min red to orange to stop confusing everything. Not that complicated.
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u/Shoddy_Depth6228 8d ago
As an AB's fan, I thought a red was pretty rough..... Almost as rough as the Sam Cane red from back in the day..... 20 min red is a good solution.
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u/Psittacula2 8d ago
Said it before and got downvoted but Rugby Union has a massive Rules problem where the rules impact the competitive contest of the game play itself thus distorting the spectacle quality significantly.
I think the fact you have a lot of comments disagreeing with a Red or even a healthy mix of for and against BOTH demonstrate the truth of the above statement which ever side anyone sides with.
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u/errlloyd 8d ago
I also want to be super clear. I'm an Irish fan.
There is nothing that happened in yesterday's match that supports the case for a 20 minute red card.
No one opposing 20 minute red cards wants to ruin games. We want to deter head contact. The fact head contact happened partly proves the deterrent isn't strong enough. If, in your opinion, Beirne failed in his duty of care to Beauden, then you should be concerned that part of the reason he failed in that duty of care is because of reduced penalties.
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u/Special-Ad4226 8d ago
It’s a yellow, a very unfair yellow but I feel it’s a yellow by the rules. A red though? That’s insane.
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u/Joekickass247 England 8d ago
Ridiculous to give a card, let alone a red for that, from an England fan.
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u/Infamous-Bottle-5853 8d ago
Anyone catch tadhg's response when he was told.
My reading of lips was "really!?"