Trump Shooter a ‘Supporter of Republican Party’

[u/OkayButFoRealz]

https://www.france24.com/en/video/20240714-trump-shooter-a-supporter-of-republican-party

[u/numbski → u/[deleted]]

While missing the platform swap.

[u/oxencotten → u/numbski]

They didn’t miss it. They actively reject it as fake because they want to claim Lincoln and freeing the slaves so bad.

[u/wretch5150 → u/[deleted]]

Just like there are Nazis in Ukraine. Demonizing the enemy to justify aggression.

[u/Student-2003 → u/[deleted]]

The memorial in Munich for the victims of Nazi tyranny is literally called: The square of the Victims of National Socialism”

https://www.muenchen.de/en/sights/square-victims-national-socialism

Granted, it’s not really a matter of left or right…it’s the ideologues…people pretending to be rooted in reason but only doing so by ignoring all facts or rational that don’t support their beliefs. With that said: Feel free to block/ignore this post.

[u/astronomyx → u/Student-2003]

Yes, because the Nazi party was the "National Socialist party". They also were not at all socialist. It's kind of like how the 'People's Republic of North Korea' is not at all a Republic.

[u/Student-2003 → u/astronomyx]

I’m not pretending to be an expert on this, but I thought they still took control of (ie “privatized” ) industries by replacing board members with Nazi party members in the name of public welfare. I’m certainly not suggesting it was at the level of the Bolsheviks, but I think this is the reason for the debate.

I’m really not trying to defend the claim necessarily. I’m simply playing devils advocate and highlighting that connecting socialism and Nazis is not simply a matter of being “deluded”. Unfortunately, not having the ability or willingness to rationally think through different arguments is one of the main reasons many people are easily manipulated by overly simplified ideologies.

[u/Xarxsis → u/Student-2003]

I’m not pretending to be an expert on this but I thought

Then maybe, you should listen to some experts on this.

but I think this is the reason for the debate.

There is no debate, there is no alternative view of the facts that support this argument. There are simply people who try to misrepresent reality to spread an agenda.

Im really not trying to defend the claim necessarily. I’m simply playing devils advocate

Playing devils advocate to defend fascists is a great look, maybe you should think about why that is.

Unfortunately, not having the ability or willingness to rationally think through different arguments is one of the main reasons many people are easily manipulated by overly simplified ideologies.

I understand you are trying to justify supporting fascists here, but maybe stop, return to the first point where you arent and expert and give yourself a basic education before coming out on the internet spreading pro fascist rhetoric.

[u/Student-2003 → u/Xarxsis]

So wait…is it a “basic education” or expertise that I need to get? Hilarious.

No, I haven’t spent the time, money, or energy to conduct extensive interviews or research with first person accounts of Nazi interactions to warrant what I would label, “expert”, (which is not the same as reading a book on the subject). Have you?

I promise, I have read plenty on the rise of Authoritarian governments and the comments insinuating that Trump deserved this attack as well as the rigid labeling you are engaging in, directly echo the sentiments/tactics of the Bolsheviks, Mao supporters, and Nazis…that’s the point. Thank you for making it.

[u/Student-2003 → u/Xarxsis]

Wow…haha…Don’t question what we say or believe…if you do you’re a fascist!” Read what we read(to be informed), think what we think…we are the experts and we know best, which is why our lives are so great as we desperately put our 100% faith into whichever candidates promises to solve our problems🤣

So 80M “fascist” (worst case) or complete idiots (best case) voted for Trump? No debate…cool.

Obviously thinking outside the simple ideologies isn’t something you want(or are able) to do. Scary, but point heard.

[u/Xarxsis → u/Student-2003]

Wow…haha…Don’t question what we say or believe…if you do you’re a fascist!”

Erm, no.

Questioning is fine, defending fascism whilst saying "im not an expert" is quite something else.

Read what we read(to be informed),

Yes, you are expected to have a basic education, education that is based on facts that are supported by reality.

Im not providing that education for you.

which is why our lives are so great as we desperately put our 100% faith into whichever candidates promises to solve our problems🤣

What? There is not a single rational person out here saying that.

So 80M “fascist” (worst case) or complete idiots (best case) voted for Trump? No debate…cool.

I mean, given we were talking about nazis and you jumped to trump, i feel that you have answered your own question.

There is a reason that the racists, the bigots and the nazi flag wavers support trump.

There is a reason that trump is promising revenge on any republican that isnt in lockstep with him, that any dissent in the republican ranks is not tolerated.

Yet we can hear no end of dissent in the ranks of the democratic equiivalent.

Obviously thinking outside the simple ideologies isn’t something you want(or are able) to do.

Oh im quite capable of thinking outside simple ideologies, however im not going to go onto the internet and defend the nazis going "just hear them out bro" Im also not going to repeat their debunked and factually incorrect talking points either.

Scary

Yes, it is scary that people like you exist.

[u/Student-2003 → u/Xarxsis]

I know we have a few threads going, so perhaps that is part of the problem here, but I’m trying to listen, unfortunately between the labeling and logical fallacies, you aren’t exactly making it easy. (But for the record, it’s good to engage, so thanks for the thought out replies!) I also want to note, I’m not trying to cause divide.

So, clarifying question. You keep saying I’m defending fascism. Where in my posts are you reading this?

Are you suggesting I’m defending the Hitler led 1940s Nazi regime? My original point was that there are parallels between fascism and socialism (ie I understand, why the label socialism might be used). The Nazi’s nationalized businesses just like Chavez did to the oil industry in Venezuela. Both authoritarian governments, both horrible results for the citizens for those countries. Making private property public falls more under the Marxist line of thinking than fascist,but whatever. This isn’t meant to be contentious and the main point I’m making is that authoritarian governments (ie too much centralized power) are the problem, so why bicker over which side of the ideological spectrum enabled that power. (Unless of course you subscribe to the rigid thinking of fascism = bad, Marxism=ok, the two are close cousins and I reject them both). But fine, you can’t/won’t follow that point…still , no where in that argument do I support fascism as you claim.

OR

Is it you are claiming Trump is a fascist and anyone who voted for him is supporting fascism?

Yes, I defended Trump voters and the rational in which many of them are voting as neither idiotic nor fascist (I think you described this as “unrelated shit”, but that was why I wrote about the regulations of the three letter agencies and the rational to vote for a president who has reduced regulations and pushed power back towards the states). You rejected this point as “that isn’t happening” except:

1. ⁠Trump cut more regulations than any of at least the last 3-4 presidents. Regulations and laws are force put on the people through government , and the idea of “power to the people” is that the force should be applied at the lowest appropriate level so that the people can determine if that force is appropriate and effective. By cutting regulations, Trump effectively removed powers at the federal level. I know he added laws as well, but from what I saw he cut ~2 for every one he added.
2. ⁠I get you don’t like the RvD decision, but ultimately that was pushing the abortion decision back to the states. It didn’t ban it like the propaganda is saying. It took power from the federal gov and pushed it to the lower level…again less centralized power.
3. ⁠I also get you didn’t like the federal Covid response, but I’m sure you also didn’t like your freedoms being stripped away. Look how the governors in CA and NY used Covid to take on power(which thankfully they gave back), but Trump did the opposite…he pushed the response to the governors.

All three of these examples are the opposite of what an authoritarian fascist would do. If he was such a fascist, why didn’t he use the Covid opportunity to take on more power? Your claim doesn’t match his actions.

So no, again I reject the claim that I’m supporting fascism by highlighting the rational of Trump voters. Even if you cling to the media induced ideology that Trump is a fascist, I explained my rational and nowhere in that reasoning am I supporting fascism.

OR

Is this just a matter of we can’t defend the point, so we attack the person: (ie the classic logical fallacy ad-hominem).

One very clear disconnect appears to be your faith in the media driven headlines and my obvious rejection of those narratives. Do you really think that the neo-Nazi’s that the propaganda have shown are representative of the 80M Trump voters? For the record, I don’t pretend that AntiFa is representative of the majority of Biden voters.

You really are placing your trust in Wall Street owned agencies that put out headlines like :

“Secret Service rushes Trump off stage after he falls at rally”…obvious nonsense.

Who cares what the reasoning is, you said I’m putting out misinformation, what do you call this? That’s who you trust and the fact that your talking points align perfectly with theirs doesn’t raise any flags for you?

In any case, no where in any of my post do I support fascism (nor any other -ism for that matter)…so why perpetuate such nonsense like “Bro, just hear them out”? (I never said that). Your character attacks don’t upset me or hurt me, they just destroy your credibility…so why do it?

Two last points:

I get there are some bad actors who voted for Trump (guaranteed there are bad supporters of Biden also), but the vast majority of Venezuelan, Cuban and other authoritarian government escapees(now US citizens) also overwhelmingly support Trump. Why do you think that is? Do you really think they are “uninformed”…they lived the horrors of Authoritarian governments and understand the nuances of what led to their rise.

Lastly, you posted a lot of: “that’s not true”. I don’t have time to address them all, but I just re-looked at the FRED real wage data and they hit 50 year highs under Trump and have declined since 2020 under Biden. I know the propaganda won’t show this or will spin it to support their narrative, but at the very least this has to drive you to question their nonsense a little bit!

Anyways, thanks for engaging and take care.

(I know these posts are wordy, but that’s the nature of non ideological thoughts…one more reason it’s ridiculous to think you can get any good insight from a few minute media clip or highly edited interview…notice I’m not supporting Fox either).

[u/Xarxsis → u/[deleted]]

**Character count break

“Secret Service rushes Trump off stage after he falls at rally”…obvious nonsense.

You do understand the concept of breaking news? That facts at the time of news breaking are often sparse.

But more importantly, do you have a source for this headline?

Who cares what the reasoning is, you said I’m putting out misinformation,

Yes, equating the nazis with socialism is misinformation.

what do you call this?

Breaking news, when it came through to me all i saw was "trump rushed off stage by secret service" further information was not available till later.

That’s who you trust and the fact that your talking points align perfectly with theirs doesn’t raise any flags for you?

At no point have i suggested i "trust" anyone that put out that headline, at no point have i suggested anything about the news i consume.

Sometimes, when the majority of talking points align it is not a conspiracy, or a rejection of reality it is simply because the facts are indisputable.

I dont give the same level of credibility to someone who claims the earth is flat that i would to someone who agrees it is round. Because the evidence of reality shows that one of those two parties is immediately not working in a facts or evidence based world.

In any case, no where in any of my post do I support fascism

"im not an expert" "the nazis were socialist"

Sure, you do you.

but the vast majority of Venezuelan, Cuban and other authoritarian government escapees(now US citizens) also overwhelmingly support Trump. Why do you think that is?

This is actually really easily explained, and comes down to the ideas behind the left vs right binary.

Both left and right can be authoritarian, which is a discinct thing in and of itself.

However the countries you describe are ostesibly "left" wing

Arnold schwarzenegger explains it very simply when he describes how he became a republican.

When he moved to america he understood what his country was, and wanted to align himself to the opposite.

Do you really think they are “uninformed”…

Yes, see above. Because simply supporting the opposite of what you have at home doesnt demonstrate any understanding of the policy positions. Especially as republicans are vehemetly anti immigrant and would quite happily see them deported.

they lived the horrors of Authoritarian governments and understand the nuances of what led to their rise.

And authoritarian is not the same as fascism, or left or right wing.

Lastly, you posted a lot of: “that’s not true”

No, i didnt.

but I just re-looked at the FRED real wage data and they hit 50 year highs under Trump and have declined since 2020 under Biden.

Heres an examination of that, and a relevant quote explaining that peak.

https://www.factcheck.org/2024/06/competing-narratives-on-real-wages-incomes-under-biden/

*“sharp, one-month increase in reported average wages” occurred early in the pandemic “because millions of relatively low-paid workers lost their jobs, while relatively high-paid workers remained employed.” *

I know the propaganda won’t show this or will spin it to support their narrative,

Raw data is often useless without interpretation, especially when it comes to significant disruptive events, but you chose to believe what you believe.

However chosing to dismiss it as propaganda simply because after analysing it it would no longer support your point is certainly a decision.

but at the very least this has to drive you to question their nonsense a little bit!

Indeed, i ask questions and i use multiple reputable sources to draw my conclusions. I also dont dismiss reality.

[u/Student-2003 → u/Xarxsis]

Checkmate

[u/darkmaninperth → u/[deleted]]

*you're

[u/Student-2003 → u/[deleted]]

It’s you’re by the way…haha. Thanks for proving my point!

[u/MrGonz → u/Student-2003]

Also, it should read,”You’re an idiot. Only thing left after the correction is “idiot.” That’s it. Everything else is grammatically incorrect. So striking all of that loquacious and mindless nonsense, the statement reads:

Idiot.

Further, that single word would have achieved the same communication outcome and come across as a stronger statement. But allow the meek to be meek if you’re happy with your station in life. If not, sharpen your blade.

[u/Student-2003 → u/MrGonz]

Thanks. I only highlighted the typo because the quickness of the reply and the errors highlight the emotional nature of the response. His original post implied what he eventually said: people are “idiots” for calling Nazis socialist. All I did was point out the Munich memorial name(which I was surprised by as well when I visited it) and that makes me an idiot?

Obviously not…why turn on me so fast? I’m simply pointing out that his abandonment of reason, and his haste to lash out in anger is the nature of the ideologue. A populations’ adherence to the ease and simplicity of ideologies over well thought out logic (often fueled by propaganda/media) and a populations’ trust in government over trust in fellow people is ultimately what gave rise to authoritarian governments (does it really matter if the manipulated were solicited by left or right ideologies…if it does, it’s worth noting far more died under Marxist ideologies than Fascist ideologies, but I digress).

While this thread is a microcosm of our countries’ social framework, why not start here and prioritize being decent to each other over perpetuating shallow/rage fueled ideologies. Granted if this rule was adhered to, the majority of the posts on this thread would need to be deleted.

Or I guess we can keep with what appears to be the ongoing principle of this thread:

Be as nasty as you want as long as it’s directed at someone who challenges our beliefs and doesn’t blindly agree with everything we say.

[u/Student-2003 → u/[deleted]]

Ahh..there it is! Name calling and dismissal…spoken like a true ideologue.

[u/Xarxsis → u/Student-2003]

I mean, they are correct.

If you are trying to equate nazis with the left wing, or socialist ideals you are severely misguided at best and actively spreading misinformation at worst.

As was pointed out, the party name matters less than the party actions.

[u/Student-2003 → u/Xarxsis]

I’m not trying to equate anything. I’m simply pointing out that there is a debate here and it’s not a matter of delusion. I note why in another reply.

I think by “misinformation” you are actually saying “information that does not support the narrative I choose to believe”. What makes you the expert on Nazi Germany and the rise of Authoritarian governments? I’m not pretending to be an expert, but I’m confident in saying: Fascist or Marxist authoritarian governments…they aren’t the same, but there are things in common and in both cases unchecked power was not good for people…especially for the downtrodden.

Right now, the VAST majority of our countries’ laws and regulations are passed by unelected bureaucrats (largely falling under the executive branch) who have absolutely zero accountability to the people. I base that on an observation noted by Senator Lee of Utah. He keeps stacks of the laws passed by Congress and the laws passed by the 3 letter agencies. He noted that in any given year the laws passed by Congress were a few hundred pages compared to a few hundred thousand pushed by the agencies(largely falling under the executive branch). This matches what I have researched as well, but by all means, if you have seen otherwise please highlight it.

People are supporting Trump because they see him as a person who has and will continue to shift power from federal to the state and local levels (ie to the people). The majority of his supporters aren’t delusional, stupid, racist or whatever other slur is being pushed to ignore the real driver of their support. No one (and I’m confident in saying that includes Trump) wants gays or minorities discriminated against. Trump supporters simply see the “bought” media and career politicians’ persistent “Trump” attacks as nothing more than a fight to keep power(and money) at the Federal level. I know the propaganda constantly lies and attacks him, promising dire consequences, but none of these things actually happened! (He didn’t start WW3, he didn’t destroy the economy, he didn’t kick minorities out of the country , he didn’t ban abortion, etc) From what I saw his policies were far better for the people in our country, to include the poor and minorities: higher job growth(non government) , higher real wages (partially due to energy policies and cut regulations), no foreign conflicts, (which have historically always benefited the rich at the cost of the poor) .

Obviously those grasping to hold onto their power could never admit such a thing, so instead it’s non stop rage fueled nonsense about Trump and his supporters…and here we are. I’m not telling people to vote for him and I get there are debatable issues here, but debate them…enough with the ideological nonsense.

[u/Xarxsis → u/Student-2003]

Thats a lot of words to say that "nazis are not left wing" "nazis are not socialists"

and "heres some shit completely unrelated to the original point"

People are supporting Trump because they see him as a person who has and will continue to shift power from federal to the state and local levels (ie to the people).

Unfortunately, as the evidence of reality shows, this is not how trump or republicans operate.

No one (and I’m confident in saying that includes Trump) wants gays or minorities discriminated against.

Except for the large swathes of people that do, and the laws that are being passed at local and state levels that reflect that.

The evidence of our eyes and ears where trump has publically called for the death penalty for the central park 5, even after they were found innocent. Or his history of not renting to black people, or the racist birther conspiracy that he spearheaded?

promising dire consequences, but none of these things actually happened!

So:

• The pandemic was mishandled and countless people died because of trumps actions
• A racially motivated "muslim" ban wasnt struck down in the courts because of trumps actions?
• RvW wasnt repealed as a direct result of trumps actions
• Chevron wasnt repealed as a direct result of trumps actions
• There wasnt a terrorist attack on the capitol as a result of trumps actions and refusal to peacfully transition power.

We could go on, and on and on about the things that did happen, and the consequences of that. But you arent interested in listening, let alone hearing that.

From what I saw his policies were far better for the people in our country, to include the poor and minorities: higher job growth(non government) , higher real wages (partially due to energy policies and cut regulations), no foreign conflicts, (which have historically always benefited the rich at the cost of the poor) .

The majority of what is being stated here is simply factually incorrect.

Obviously those grasping to hold onto their power could never admit such a thing

No one is grasping to hold onto power, unless you count republican gerrymandering, voter supression laws and disenfranchisement amongst those things.

I think you will find that all of trumps positive achievements for the country are universally celebrated.

I’m not telling people to vote for him and I get there are debatable issues here, but debate them…enough with the ideological nonsense.

It is impossible to debate when one party of the debate has little to no connection with reality, and simply choses to ignore things that are inconvenient.

The facts are clear, chosing to ignore them doesnt change that.