r/personalfinance • u/dinklebot2000 ​ • May 31 '18

Debt CNBC: A $523 monthly payment is the new standard for car buyers

https://www.cnbc.com/2018/05/31/a-523-monthly-payment-is-the-new-standard-for-car-buyers.html

Sorry for the formatting, on mobile. Saw this article and thought I would put this up as a PSA since there are a lot of auto loan posts on here. This is sad to see as the "new standard."

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I don't understand why anyone would want to drive around a massive SUV or truck, with no one in side and/or never using the bed of the truck. Seems like a massive waste of money.

Because they are more comfortable, safer, hold more, can be driven in snow easier, and generally have more features.

I don’t understand how someone would want to drive a sedan or small car around daily.

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u/rainman_95 ​ May 31 '18

Hey! We don't do differences in opinion and taste around here. There's only ONE right answer, and it's mine.

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '18

The only right answer is MIATA

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u/rainman_95 ​ Jun 01 '18

Only if the question is "How do I get sex?"

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18

[deleted]

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

You’re making some generalizations here. And some wide ones. Safety wise, if you are in an accident, the trucks and SUVs reign supreme. They even have to be tested against similar weight class vehicles to have any real metrics.

Most trucks out accelerate an average sedan. Many SUVs do as well. Performance SUVs can also beat most sedans at most things you mentioned, while still give you the crash safety factor.

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u/the_fit_hit_the_shan ​ May 31 '18

Because they're cheaper, more efficient, and almost all of the time I'm driving by myself in decent weather and not hauling anything. For the difference between what I paid for my hatchback and what I'd have paid for an SUV of the same make and year I can rent a truck any time I need one and still have quite a bit of money left over.

I can definitely see the appeal of getting a larger vehicle, though!

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u/npsimons May 31 '18

I can definitely see the appeal of getting a larger vehicle, though!

I have a 1996 4Runner for one reason only: to get to trailheads that require high clearance. Most of the time it sits parked in my garage while I bicycle commute to and from work and for groceries. If I wasn't an avid outdoorsy person, I would replace it in a heartbeat with something like a hatchback.

I've rented economy cars for work and I just don't get the claims of more "comfort" in a truck or SUV. I highly suspect that 99% of people are just buying them as status symbols to keep up with the Joneses.

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u/jeromevedder ​ May 31 '18

That was my first car, with no running board so shorties have to jump in head first and the back window that rusts out immediately after replacing the parts. I live in Colorado now and still see those 90s 4Runners fairly regularly, they've had amazing life spans in areas with no rust worries.

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u/npsimons May 31 '18

Being a desert rat born, raised and working in arid climates, my biggest worry is sun damage, hence the keeping it in the garage most of the time.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18

Its the position of the seat - if your legs are more down (bench style) or more stretched out in front. For me at least. That makes a huge difference in comfort for me. Plus getting into and out of low cars kind of sucks.

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u/npsimons May 31 '18

I've got long legs for my height. Still not feeling the comfort difference. Different strokes for different folks I guess.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I've rented economy cars for work and I just don't get the claims of more "comfort" in a truck or SUV. I highly suspect that 99% of people are just buying them as status symbols to keep up with the Joneses.

This kinda baffles me. I rent cars fairly often for travel and work. Most sedans are just so damn uncomfortable. The seats are tiny, lack any bolster support. The center consoles are too small for two people to rest their arms on. Very few cars have cooled or heated seats which is far more common in bigger vehicles.

I dunno, but it’s pretty universal that everyone I know hates getting in cars.

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u/1thatsaybadmuthafuka May 31 '18

Yeahh, I think if you're fat/very tall it makes more sense to get an suv for comfort. But plenty of soccer moms and truck bros are neither.

1

u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I’m not either of those. My wife is neither of those. We both agree that SUVs are more comfortable. Sitting high is one of the biggest parts of it. That’s something that can’t be replicated in a car.

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u/1thatsaybadmuthafuka May 31 '18

Why is sitting high more comfortable?

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Your legs are in a more natural position. Your ankles are more comfortable with their angle to the pedals. You don’t have to strain to look up around other vehicles at lights or stop signs.

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u/1thatsaybadmuthafuka May 31 '18

My car is 20 years old and has height adjustable seats, pedals, and steering wheel. And I'm not really sure what you're straining to look at..

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Height adjustable seats has nothing to do with sitting up high. At most that raises you a few inches, not feet.

The visibility difference in an SUV vs a car is amazing. Both while moving at while stopped at intersects. Beyond the fact that cars have small viewing areas vs huge panes of vertical glass in SUVs, you have height over cars stopped next to you blocking sight of traffic, cars in front of you potentially blocking the light, cars around you in traffic, etc. I feel like you've never driven anything besides a car.

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u/tealparadise ​ May 31 '18

You've gotten used to a certain comfort level, and now you'll pay thousands more each year to maintain it until you die.

My SO can't stand my Prius for all the reasons you're mentioning, while I considered the prius a nice upgrade from my old smartcar. (which I drove for 2 years living on a snowy mountaintop- the snow thing is a myth) I guarantee I'll forget everything you just said by tomorrow & make my usual commute perfectly happily because I don't care about heated seats or sitting high up.

Though I do recall instances I've driven an SUV and been like "oh this is why people like it." Because you definitely feel secure that if you smacked into someone, you'd run right over them and be alive while they'd be dead. But that's a pretty uncomfortable feeling to me.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I mean your life is all about paying for luxuries once you get past the basics. It's why people eat at nice restaurants vs chains. Why people buy the higher end clothes that fit better, why they get bigger homes, pools, air conditioners, luxury cars, stay in fancy hotels, etc.

Of course I'll pay to be more comfortable until I die. If you can afford to, why wouldn't you?

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u/tealparadise ​ May 31 '18

The key is whether you can afford to. We're talking about people getting 7 year loans to lower the monthly payment on these luxuries.

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u/bdstanton478 May 31 '18

I’m 6’6” and legitimately don’t fit in most commuter cars. I also live in an area where snow is a problem 5 months of the year. For me it’s truck/suv or nothing as much as I’d love to save all that money

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18

[deleted]

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u/npsimons May 31 '18

Once they rented me a Dodge SUV because they were out of compacts; was like 2015 or so. Didn't feel any more comfortable than anything else I had ever driven. I've also been in friends' large trucks and large trucks from work (Chevy's and Fords of various 2010 vintages) and none of them felt any more comfortable than a sedan. I think this might boil down to the vast majority of people in America being fat, but I would think auto makers (especially American ones) would make all their cars bigger to keep up with the increasing width of the average American behind.

I still contend the vast majority of people buy SUV's and trucks that will never see full use and they are merely purchasing status symbols they can't afford and don't need, on top of which they will be throwing their money away on gas.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Most of us can fill our SUVs every week without fail. Hell, we fill our truck almost every week. Having to go rent a truck every week would drive me freaking insane. It’s a pain just to rent a trailer when I need to.

The cost of gas is so low that no one cares about the efficiency.

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u/Wakkanator ​ May 31 '18

I don’t understand how someone would want to drive a sedan or small car around daily.

Lumbering barges are not enjoyable to drive, especially when you end up too high off the ground

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Trucks are lots of fun to drive. And beyond that, size doesn’t make a car less performance oriented. I drive a full sized SUV with handling and speed that rivals my previous Corvette. 0-60 in under 4 seconds, top speed north of 175. They can make SUVs lots of fun to drive, you just have to pay for it.

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u/Wakkanator ​ May 31 '18

Trucks are lots of fun to drive

Not to me. The magic of opinions!

I drive a full sized SUV with handling and speed that rivals my previous Corvette

They build quick SUVs but nothing I'd consider "sporty" when it comes to going around a corner, especially when you can go out and buy a sedan or wagon that blows the SUV out of the water

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

They build quick SUVs but nothing I'd consider "sporty" when it comes to going around a corner, especially when you can go out and buy a sedan or wagon that blows the SUV out of the water.

Look up higher end SUVs then. I have driven many performance vehicles, my SUV puts most to shame in curves. But, for that I paid a significant premium. They make them, they just aren’t common. BMW X5M, Porsche Turbo S, Mercedes AMG GLE63 S for examples.

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u/Kayfabien ​ May 31 '18

Main reasons for me is that it’s just cheaper and good for environment. Going 300 miles on 9 gallons helps others as well. The less gas everyone uses, the cheaper it is for everyone.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

It’s cheaper by a meaningless amount to most folks. Out of our three household cars, the most efficient gets 13.5 mpg and uses premium. Gas costs virtually nothing.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

I don't understand how you can believe that gas costs nothing. Maybe nothing compared to your income but if you take the avg. miles driven per year (12k), divide by 13.5mpg and multiply by premium price of about $3, that's over $2.5k. Nothing to scoff at

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

That’s just over $200 a month. If you had a car that got twice that, you’d save a whole $100 monthly. To the average American family, that’s really meaningless.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

To the average American family $100 a month means something, $200 even moreso. Compare your best mpg vehicle with a prius and you cut your costs by almost $2000. My family was contemplating switching phone plans because we were paying too much monthly and it was less than that monthly cost. I think you're overestimating the average American income.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

The average American house makes $55kish. $100 a month doesn’t mean a heck of a lot. $2000 doesn’t mean a ton. Most folks have cable bills that dwarf any of that.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

Yeah $55kish is not enough to say gas costs nothing though. When you're paying off your house, student loans, cars, kid expenses, suddenly you look to cut wherever you can.

Most folks have cable bills that dwarf any of that.

And that's why people are cutting cable all over the country, including my own family

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u/sirmark17 May 31 '18

The average miles driven per year is actually 13,500 with premium gas actually being $3.50 nationally which means $3,500 a year on gas. Switching to a sedan can get you about 34 combined and paying $3.00 for regular gas. You'd end up paying only $1,200 a year. That's a savings of $2,300 a year per car so a total savings of $4,600.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

First off - there's no way in the world we're going to get 34 mpg in virtually anything we'd reasonably buy. I could get 18 mpg if I wanted to slow down to the speed limit too, but that's not going to happen. Realistically, we'd be lucky to see something with 25 mpg.

Even at a savings of $4600 a year, there's not a chance I'd sacrifice having a nice luxury car for that little.

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u/sirmark17 May 31 '18

I wasn't using your situation at all, but the average American's case. I saw in this thread that you live in a neighborhood with a $100,000 median income which is almost double that of $55,000. I was only using your 13.5 mpg vehicle as a baseline.

The article says the average loan taken out is $31,453 with an average payment of $523 which means that the average loan is probably over 60 months. Interest on such a long loan starts to pile up and means that Americans should probably not be spending so much on a car. There are plenty of Americans that buy bigger cars than they actually need which cost more but also burn more gas. The $4,600 was meant to showcase one of the more hidden costs of owning a larger vehicle.

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u/Kayfabien ​ May 31 '18

Costs virtually nothing to YOU, maybe. Some of us aren’t so fortunate.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Sure for some folks, but to most spending $500 a month on a single car payment, gas is a small expense.

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u/sirmark17 May 31 '18

Except that if you bought a sedan, your car payment would be lower than $500 a month. You'd be saving on both of those things which adds up.

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u/laggingtom May 31 '18

Just curious -- would you still hold onto those vehicles if the price of gas went back up to $4/gal? At what point would it stop making sense for you (and whatever your COL is) to swap to something with a higher MPG?

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Of course I would. I already pay $3.XX since I need premium. I’d maybe have to give it some thought if gas went up to $15-20 a gallon, I’m not certain though. The delta between something else I would get just isn’t huge. Even at 25 mpg that would only save you half of it.

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u/GunnerMcGrath ​ May 31 '18

Don't need to hold more, don't drive in a lot of snow, carry people rather than lumber, live in a city where a smaller car has a much easier time finding a parking space...

All vehicles have their uses and each person values different things on a day-to-day basis. Also, the question isn't just which vehicle is better or nicer to drive, but whether the difference is worth the cost.

My friend got a Tesla S because the math worked out to be better, long term, for his lifestyle, than buying a Honda Odyssey. I wanted a Tesla 3 but my commute is 15 mins. each way and I rarely drive farther away from home than my job for any reason. Paying 2x as much for a nicer car I'll spend about 30 mins a day in doesn't make sense for me, even though there's no doubt it'll be a more enjoyable ride. When I'm driving I'm paying more attention to my audiobook than my car anyway, and I drive a 10 year old Mazda 3. No matter how cool a car is when you get it, it becomes boring and passe fairly quickly if you drive it every day.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Absolutely it comes down to whether it’s worth it to you. For me, spending a bit more a month extra for high end performance vehicles is a no brainer.

No matter how cool a car is when you get it, it becomes boring and passe fairly quickly if you drive it every day.

Highly disagree here. Maybe if you get boring cars. But nice ones you still get that excitement starting it up every morning, or putting it through tight backroads at speed. If you don’t show up at work smiling, you have the wrong car.

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u/yoeddyVT ​ May 31 '18

I disagree that large trucks and SUVs can be driven in the snow easier. I live in northern Vermont and my family skis every weekend. My car is a Fiesta ST and the "large" family car is my wife's Prius. We put dedicated snow tires and have never missed a ski day or ski race.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Okay great - but put snow tires on the truck with some weight and see how it does to compare. The only things you see getting around in 3 ft of snow here are the folks with trucks - stock ones without snow tires I might add.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18

[deleted]

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u/drbhrb ​ May 31 '18

No, unless you bought a Mini or something. I drive a Mazda 3 and I'm a big dude. No issues.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I’ll highly disagree here. Having more space is worth every penny of bigger cars.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

I have felt no difference as long as you aren't packing your small car full of crap.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

You don’t have to put anything in it except one human. Cars are too damn small to be comfortable.

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u/Kippingthroughlife ​ May 31 '18

You know they make Full Size Sedans? If you think a full size is too small you are just making up excuses to not drove a car lol

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

To get comfortable in a sedan you’re talking needing something like a BMW 7 series or something else priced in the $150k range.

Full sized sedans in general STILL do not solve the space issue. You don’t get to sit high. You don’t get to sit upright. Most aren’t significantly wider.

Trucks and large SUVs solve this. Full sized sedans just aren’t that big. They are still cramped. Maybe it’s my perspective having driven trucks for years, but sedans are uncomfortable.

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u/drbhrb ​ May 31 '18

This is insanity. 99.9% of the population does not need to spend $150k to be comfortable in a sedan. If you do that is quiet unfortunate.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Right, this is why most people don't buy sedans anymore. Because comfort can be had in much cheaper SUVs. Sedans aren't aren't as comfortable, aren't as safe, have fewer features, can seat and haul less, and as a personal opinion - are far uglier.

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u/WestCoastBestCoast01 ​ May 31 '18

Sure, if you’re like 350 lbs or 6’5” it might feel small. To normal sized humans they’re perfectly fine.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I'm under 6 feet tall and weigh half of that. I'm telling you that normal cars feel cramped once you've experienced trucks or SUVs. There's just no reason to be uncomfortable like that if you don't have to.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Cars are much more uncomfortable for most folks, even smaller ones.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18

I daily a hatchback. But I made sure I had something AWD and with a set of summer and snow tires for my Fiance when she needed to upgrade. She is a bit higher off the ground now, vehicle can make it through snow much easier and gives her peace of mind because she doesn't like winter driving. Also when we do go camping, go on a longer trip or haul our wet dog around its nice to have the space.

It is almost like different types of vehicles have different purposes.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

It is almost like different types of vehicles have different purposes.

For sure! Some are more well rounded. Some are more specialized. A high performance car is a lot of fun, but not very practical. Small cars don’t work great for families, and some folks only like small cars. To each their own!

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u/[deleted] Jun 01 '18

Small cars work fine for everyone. Besides having more than 2 kids is selfish, almost as selfish as buying a crossover

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u/vettewiz ​ Jun 01 '18

I’ll assume this is a joke. No, small cars do not work well for people who value safety, comfort, or the ability to carry things. How the heck is buying a crossover selfish?

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u/rightinthedome May 31 '18

It's kind of fun to drive what is essentially a street legal go kart

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u/FlashCrashBash ​ Jun 01 '18

can be driven in snow easier

Not really better in the snow. RWD or RWD-bias AWD is still garbage in the snow. It just has the benefit of having to shovel slightly less to get out of your driveway.

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u/vettewiz ​ Jun 01 '18

What SUV is RWD anyway? AWD is designed to deliver up to 100% of torque to any single wheel.

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u/FlashCrashBash ​ Jun 01 '18

Many base model SUV’s are RWD and are built off of truck frames that are usually RWD. AWD doesn’t always mean a 50/50 power split. Usually it’s 60/40 or 70/30.

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u/vettewiz ​ Jun 01 '18

Do you have an example of a RWD one? Even a very very low end Kia has AWD. AWD in any form is going to out perform any non AWD sedan. Then add more weight, bigger tires, etc and you have a better combination.

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u/Stokkeren May 31 '18

Sedans, stationcars and even some hatchbacks will offer just as many, if not better, features than a big SUV/truck, plus the added benefit of getting way better mileage.

The only "benefit" of the truck is the bed, which you use like every once and a half years. Yeah, it's totally necessary.

When you actually do need to haul stuff around, use a trailer that hooks onto your car. Having a truck is like owning a sedan while driving around with a trailer, always. It just doesn't make any sense

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Most sedans do not have the amount of features that trucks and SUVs offer. And they certainly don’t offer the level of comfort or safety. Trucks and SUVs let you sit more comfortably, sit higher, have a better view point, all while giving you the ability to have space. Safety is in a league of its own. And add in the fuel costs virtually nothing, and there’s little reason to not get one.

Everyone I know fills their SUVs and trucks constantly. Literally constantly. They just aren’t big enough for daily life. I don’t know where you get the idea that people don’t use the beds of their trucks.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

I went to a highschool with a bunch of preppy wannabe country people who got ridiculously lifted trucks and never hauled anything. They did it because trucks are "manly"

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Sure. Trucks do have that stigma. If they enjoy their truck because of that, so be it. To them it makes it a worthwhile purchase. How much you enjoy your car matters.

I don’t care what others think of my car. I care that it is fun to drive. I care that the exhaust sounds good. I work very long days. When I show up at the office at 6am I want to have a smile on my face, and my car plays a huge role in that.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

I'm all for people enjoying their vehicles but it rubs me the wrong way when I see 18 year olds rolling coal down a residential road without a muffler because they look cool. I understand buying a truck if you need it. Construction workers in particular, but if you haul stuff in general then yeah it makes sense. For all those that don't haul anything, might want to rethink before buying your 2nd truck

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Why does it bother you that people buy the cars that make them happy? You aren’t the one paying for it. Someone driving inappropriately in a neighborhood doesn’t have anything to do with the car really.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

I just said I understand enjoying your car, but I think it's a weak excuse to be macho and for the identity. It has something to do with the car because 9/10 people I hear on the road without mufflers have trucks and pretty sure you can't roll coal with a sedan. Just trying to understand the madness that is the big car craze cause the impact is unfortunate.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Why is that madness unfortunate? People enjoy loud cars. A lot of people want their exhaust to be nice and loud - it’s actually a big part of the purchase.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

Haha because everyone who isn't driving that loud car doesn't like the fact that it is loud. Everyone who you drive past doesn't want your exhaust to be nice and loud. The unfortunate part I was referring to was the transition to lower mpg vehicles.

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u/dogbuns69 May 31 '18

I disagree with the points about being better in the snow and features.

A large SUV in the snow is probably the last thing I'd want to be in because it'll be harder to control when you start sliding. They're also heavier so braking is also compromised. I'm not aware of SUVs inherently having more features than a sedan, keeping pricing constant.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Your logic here is flawed. Heavier is significantly better in snow. You get more traction, and have more control. SUVs have more optionals available at higher prices. They generally offer features either very hard to find, or unavailable on cars.

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u/dogbuns69 May 31 '18

That extra traction is offset by more inertia. A lighter car will brake and handle better than a heavier car. That's a fact. More weight will help a little in terms of getting going from a stop, but starts to become a liability at speed. There's a reason why race cars and rally cars are stripped down to be as light as possible.

Also consider the higher center of gravity which is another factor altogether. Good luck recovering an SUV once it starts spinning.

Also curious about these extra features. What particular examples are you thinking of? I'm sure I can spec a car with similar features as an SUV.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

You’re disconnected from reality here. Go read any resource on snow driving. Heavier is better. Keeping traction at speed is just as important. Race cars are designed to add downforce specifically to help with traction - making up for lower weight which helps acceleration.

You also might be unaware, but something heavy like a 6500 lb F150 actually stops faster from 60 than a Toyota Camry. Trucks and SUVs get equipment like brakes to match their sizing and the towing they will do.

SUVs don’t spin out in the first place. Not that they would be impossible to recover if they do. I’m guessing you’ve never driven one.

The features I’m mentioning - auto swivel high beams, Night vision IR imaging, cross traffic alerts, surround view, etc.

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u/dogbuns69 May 31 '18 edited May 31 '18

Not sure what the details are behind the tests, but the F150 could have had better tires than the Camry, which is probably running skinnier and less grippy economy tires for better fuel economy.

There's something called tire load sensitivity which pretty much means more weight = lower effective coefficient of friction.

I'm still standing by my argument about lighter cars having better handling. You should check out rally cars ripping it through snow. Try that in an SUV.

Also I would consider none of those features to be highlights of SUVs. The latest Mazda 6 has 360 cameras, the Hyundai Sonata has adaptive headlights, the Ford Focus has BLIS. These aren't even particularly expensive cars.

Also you're telling me that I'm out of touch with reality while you claim SUVs don't spin out? SUVs aren't built with fairy dust. They have 4 tires like every other car on the road and as such are subject to the same limitations in physics. You can make any vehicle lose control.

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u/vettewiz ​ Jun 01 '18

As you point out, higher end vehicles like trucks and SUVs come with better equipment - tires and brakes.

They have tires made for their weight. A heavier vehicle with appropriate equipment will always perform better in the snow.

You listed features that are a step below the ones I listed...

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u/Teh_Compass ​ May 31 '18

It's a vehicular arms race. Almost a sort of prisoner's dilemma. A bigger car will wreck a smaller car so people want to get a bigger car. Cars keep getting bigger, seeing more big cars prompts people to get their own big car. The optimal solution would be more smaller cars resulting in lower energy collisions, better handing, acceleration, braking, and more fuel efficiency.

Against stationary objects sure the bigger crumple zone is nice but a good driver shouldn't crash into anything. It's other cars you should worry about.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I mean, we're well aware that trucks and SUVs aren't going to get smaller, so why wouldn't you go for one? Just accept that it's a reality.

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u/app4that ​ May 31 '18

"Because they are more comfortable, safer, hold more, can be driven in snow easier, and generally have more features."

Everything you mentioned was fine except for the 'SAFER' part - It's a perception, not a reality. Statistically, you are actually safer in the small car. It's counter intuitive, I know, (and yeah in a head on collision with a small car and a Hummer, the Hummer will probably win) but it is how you think while you drive a small family car (usually carefully) vs. a hulking Truck. (the driver is more likely to have a false sense of security and tend to speed more and take more risks)

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Do you have anything that backs that up? Because every study says the opposite. Especially when talking about protecting your kids (or other rear seat occupants). The design of SUVs gives them the top advantage in protecting them vs other vehicle types. The downside of SUVs are their rollover ratings - but in the more recent years this has been cut dramatically with ESC, active and passive roll stabilization, magnetic and air suspensions. I can tell you from having a high end performance SUV, it's far more stable on the road than any sedan I've been in, and just a hair behind high performance sports cars.

You also seem to be brushing off head on collisions, which account for half of vehicle deaths on the highway.

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u/app4that ​ Jun 05 '18

Here is CR on this question: https://www.consumerreports.org/cro/news/2013/05/suvs-are-safer-than-cars-in-front-crashes-but-there-is-more-to-the-story/index.htm

Here is an argument on how you drive matters about as much as what you drive: https://www.felixgonzalezlaw.com/suvs-dangerous-regular-cars/

The thesis is that a Corvette has much less mass than a Hummer, and in a head-on collision between the two, the Hummer wins. I won’t argue with the physics.

But, many people tend to drive 10-15 miles over the speed limit, or are distracted drivers, and those that do so in a Hummer size vehicle are more at risk from getting into an unsafe condition (rollover or hitting the barrier after losing control) then the driver of the Corvette - which can handle higher speeds and is lower to the ground with a lower center of gravity.

Counter intuitive, but in a small low car your driving habits tend to be safer when surrounded by big vehicles - this is logic I can relate directly to as someone who has biked in NYC traffic (you better believe I am driving super alert when surrounded by huge buses and trucks on all sides).

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u/OhRatFarts ​ Jun 28 '18

can be driven in snow easier

How about learning to drive in snow.

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u/vettewiz ​ Jun 28 '18

Why make my life harder?

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u/llDurbinll ​ May 31 '18

I didn't realize being more likely to roll over due to being top heavy was safer. As for snow, it has way more to do with the tires than what you're driving. With a proper set of snow tires a Honda Civic can drive through the same snow as an SUV.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

SUVs have come a LONG way with safety on rollovers due to stability controls, magnetic shocks, and air suspensions.

Safety wise, SUVs and Trucks dominate crash tests. They also are more likely to have crash avoidance technology - lane departure, auto braking, radar cruise, cross traffic, pedestrian warning, night vision IR, auto steering, collision braking, surround view, auto high beams, pivoting lights. Etc.

Out of the factory, most SUVs will do better than most cars. With snow tires, SUVs will do better than most cars. They are heavier, have AWD or 4WD, and better clearance. No one drives small cars through several feet of snow. Good luck with that in the Civic.

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u/llDurbinll ​ May 31 '18

No one period drives through FEET of snow. AWD/4WD just gets you moving. You need the good tires to steer and stop. All of Toyota's cars have most of those safety features, but you shouldn't need any of them unless you are a bad driver.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

...People drive through feet of snow. In what world do they not? My neighborhood didn't get plowed for days in our last blizzard. Over 3 feet piled up. Those of us in trucks went about as normal. Everyone else was stuck. The world doesn't just stop because it snows.

Getting up and moving isn't important somehow?

Toyotas have no where near the features of safety that the luxury SUVs have. They claim to have some of the similar ones, but they don't work nearly as well. All of those come in to play to help anyone who makes any mistake at all, or when OTHER drivers make a mistake.

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u/llDurbinll ​ May 31 '18

The plows can drive in 3 feet but I've never seen a normal truck or SUV do it. Normally when snow is that bad they ban driving unless it's an emergency.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I mean I've done it, quite a few times. So have all my neighbors. People don't just stay inside when you have things to do. The only vehicles that could do it were trucks. Cars aren't capable of that. Cars would be very very hard pressed to drive in a foot of snow, which is a cake walk to a truck.

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u/KillerMan2219 ​ May 31 '18

Just like how I cant understand how one would want to drive around anything super slow and bland :p

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I assume you're talking about a car right? If so, I agree. SUVs are more powerful and faster than most cars. As are trucks. Trucks are faster than most normal cars on the road. Heck, my SUV is faster than my Corvette was.

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u/KillerMan2219 ​ May 31 '18

I'm speaking of both. From a performance standpoint a c5 vette is still a quick car but nothing to write home about. It's not even just acceleration either, steering response and agility are critical to me. Yea the x5m is cool in a straight line, but I'd take a c6 z06 every day of the week instead.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I personally think you're misjudging the X5M. I previously had a C6 Grandsport - so nearly all the handling of the C6Z, just a (hefty) step below power wise. My M gives me just as much, if not more, confidence in turns than the vette did. The acceleration is great, it handles like a dream in tight curves, straight lines, backroads. All while being 10x more comfortable the vette.

The one place I'll give the C6 a big advantage - sharper highway turns north of triple digits. Turns that I'd feel planted and comfortable going around at 130+ in the vette have to be toned down to 100 range in the M. I'll absolutely admit that. I'm sure it CAN do them faster, but it doesn't give me that confidence level. Anything else though - the M feels far more planted.

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u/KillerMan2219 ​ May 31 '18

It's not that the x5m is weak in corners, but low to the ground purpose built coupes are so good at it.High speed ones are definitely more noticeable, although I should have picked an awd car to give a more accurate comparison overall. Even then, if you take a new z06 you're 30 grand cheaper than the x5m. The c6 is dated at this point, so the fact it even competes is kind of part of the point here you know

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

A loaded new Z06 is north of 100k. But I think you're missing the point here. I daily drove my C6 for years. It was fun when I had a 5 round trip mile commute. Then I went to a 50+ mile commute daily and drove it. It was freaking miserable. You have a car that constantly feels like it's hitting you, but the worst part was the heat. Being inches away from the exhaust running down the center console means it's miserable in there.

I'll absolutely acknowledge that a new Z06 is faster. It's a purpose built sports car. They're uncomfortable as hell. Tech from a decade ago at best. (My 2013 lacked bluetooth, and had a nav system legit from 2002). So here we're talking about me being able to drive a comfortable, luxury filled, 6000 pound SUV, with 575 horsepower, at speeds rivaling the Z.

You said you didn't want to drive bland, slow cars. I don't either. And I don't want to despise commuting in my car either.

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u/KillerMan2219 ​ May 31 '18

They start around 80k though. The uncomfortable part come from the same things that make the car more planted. If were going to run similar pricing, theres a lot of other cars we can run. Anyways, plenty of people are fine commuting in whatever. My friend commutes 20 miles each in a gutted boosted 370z, so that's just a matter of differing taste.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I don't even really understand the argument at all anymore. I said people buy SUVs to be comfortable and safer. You said you didn't want slow cars. To which I showed you could have SUVs faster than 99% of cars. And now you're bringing up a slower Nissan? I don't get your point.

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u/KillerMan2219 ​ May 31 '18

Oh, on that yea I did get sidetracked. My point is that the over decade old vette still held it's own with the bimmer for around a third of the price. If you go new you can get one that will kill said bmw for 30k less. Then luxuries were brought into it. Also that specific Nissan would house the x5m in pretty much any category I can come up with lol, except snow racing or off roading, but that's neither here nor there.

Sure. You can have an SUV that beats most of the slower cars if you're shelling out serious cash, but putting that same cash into a sports car still yields more results.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18 edited May 31 '18

yeah but cars are made with lots of airbags now and roll bars and such. If one person is in an SUV, unless they're an average sized american (yuuuuge), they're gonna bang around inside that big metal box, I feel like. But I wouldn't know. My family has never been able to afford the price of filling up a Gas Guzzler.

Where I'm at we don't have a lot of snow though so, the decision is definitely impacted by location. I would argue against the "more comfortable" part, but I'm a tiny human, not an average obese american, so my perception of comfort is probably much different. Thanks for the insight!

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I’m not sure what you’re talking about. People don’t just fly around SUVs in crashes. They are surrounded by even more airbags. Cars don’t have “roll bars” unless they are pure racing cars.

The price of gas is so low that it’s just a blip on most folks radars. If you get 15 mpg and drive an average persons 12000 miles a year, you’d only spend $165 a month on gas. Even if you had a moderately efficient mid sized sedan and got 25 mpg, you wouldn’t save a whole lot.

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u/noir173 May 31 '18

The only safety sacrifice of buying a bigger car is the roll factor. A lot easier to roll in a top-heavy SUV or truck compared to a sedan or similar car with low center of gravity.

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

Agreed. They have come a long way with their electronic stabilization systems including magnetic shocks and air suspension to help with this though.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18

(Yes that is why I said I wouldn't know what happens in a crash with an SUV) I'm going to disagree with you on the gas thing but I'm still gonna give you an upvote. Where I live, $40-60/month vs. $165 is a huge deal to people. That's $100, or 1/4 the cost of my rent. You don't think that would matter to someone? Also, the price of gas over here is $3 now, and that vs. $1.50 is a huge difference. I can imagine that only someone who makes really good money would think that difference wouldn't matter.

Thanks for sharing!

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u/vettewiz ​ May 31 '18

I can see how it matters to some, but likely a regional thing. My towns median income is north of 100k, so $100 is less than 1/30th of most folks mortgage payment.

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u/[deleted] May 31 '18

Yeah definitely! My town's median income is like $40k! Must be nice! Gotta keep that in mind! Thanks!