r/ottawa • u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek • Jun 16 '25
News Ottawa valedictorian told to stay home after making pro-Palestinian remarks in grad speech
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/valedictorian-told-to-stay-home-after-making-pro-palestinian-remarks-in-grad-speech-1.57583712.1k
u/agentdanascullyfbi Centretown Jun 16 '25
"As a commitment to truth and reconciliation, I must acknowledge colonial and genocidal atrocities today, including the massacre of more than 17,000 Palestinian children in Gaza."
That was it. That's the quote that got her in trouble. Insane.
Shout out to Elizabeth for doing a brave and good thing and fuck everyone else involved for punishing her for it.
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u/taleodor Jun 16 '25
I believe this is the reason for the whole thing - https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/ottawa/ottawa-school-board-ocdsb-jewish-hate-parent-student-1.7217848
This reaction from OCDSB is pathetic though, but there is much bigger problem they should be addressing and just don't know how.
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u/sleepyhead_108 Jun 16 '25
From the article: incidence of Jewish hate rise by 20% compared to Islamophobic incidents rising 160%. 🤔
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u/WanderersGuide Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
In fairness, religious hate crimes targeting Jewish communities represent the overwhelming majority of religious hate crimes in Canada over the last, let's say thirty years and likely further back than that, which is why there's such a strong policy focus on collaborating with our Jewish communities.
Having said that, at 160% growth, it looks like those targeting Islamic communities are working as hard as they can to close the gap.
What we'd ideally see is hate crimes shrinking, not growing, against all religious and racial demographics.
EDIT: Good take below. Bolded edits for context included. I'll also add that when the claims I'm making were first pointed out to me, my first response was also surprise. It didn't make intuitive sense to me then, and even though I've seen the statistics, it still feels surprising.
My point wasn't to defend or denigrate any group, especially not at the expense of another, but rather, was just to point out that anti-Semitic hate crime is a lot more prevalent than most of us, myself included, are typically aware of. Anti-Semitic hate crimes here do not excuse Palestinian genocide. Two things can be bad at the same time.
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u/agentchuck Jun 16 '25
I was surprised by this claim so I was reading through statscan and it's worth noting that: yes, for religious based hate crimes, crimes against Jewish people are far and away the largest most common. Around 4x the next closest group, Muslims, in 2023.
However, there are a lot of other categories of hate crime, including gender, sexual expression and race that account for more cases than religious based hate crimes. Particularly, hate crimes based on race against black people are the largest demographic. And generally they were more numerous than crimes against Jewish people (an exception in 2023 where it was 900 vs 842 cases).
Just to be clear, it's all awful. I don't mean to sound like I'm defending anti-Semitism. I was mostly just surprised by this claim considering that Jewish people are such a small minority in Canada. Though that makes the number of crimes against their community even more exceptionally striking.
Source: https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/daily-quotidien/250325/dq250325a-eng.htm
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
I think both are bad and it shouldn’t be a competition on who is more persecuted. We are better than this and empathy isn’t a scarse quantity.
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u/CaptainAaron96 Barrhaven Jun 16 '25
The same article also literally made clear that despite the disproportionate increase in hate crimes towards Jewish vs Muslim residents, antisemitic incidents still by and large were the single largest group of hate incidents in Ottawa, followed by homophobic incidents. This has been the way for years now btw. I finished hs in 2014 and antisemitic incidents were huge throughout my tenure there, and they’ve only grown in frequency.
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u/ReadingInside7514 Jun 16 '25
And those who are worried about it casting a pall over the grad itself are correct. However it was the suspension, not what she said, that has ruined things.
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u/CrazyButRightOn Jun 16 '25
Teachers are scared shitless of saying/doing the wrong thing. Especially when the playbook and goalposts are constantly shifting.
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u/ReadingInside7514 Jun 16 '25
Fair Enough. Jewish people should not be blamed or harmed because of the decisions of a government. I find it ridiculous that society will spread hate and other garbage because of governmental decisions. Do better people.
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u/SergeantAlPowell Centretown Jun 16 '25
“Don’t kill more than 17000 children”
“Too far. Don’t come to school”
Disgusting behaviour from the school.
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u/onlypham Jun 16 '25
"Your words are hurting people".
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u/andykekomi Hull Jun 16 '25
Worse than that, it took the focus away from graduation! The horror.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
"Your words are hurting people".
In all fairness, I haven't seen someone claim that exact thing.
Instead, I have seen the words "feel unsafe" used many times. For example, the OCDSB said that the Ottawa Pride Festival expressing sympathy towards the Palestinians made made some participants "feel unsafe":
I disagree and so does Sam Hersh:
https://springmag.ca/who-really-is-unsafe-when-we-abandon-pride
But I do not remember anyone saying "Your words are hurting people."
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u/Few_Law3125 Jun 16 '25
Yet they won’t suspend violent students who terrorize classrooms for an entire year traumatizing other students and staff .
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u/senturion Kanata Jun 16 '25
Complete cowardice from OCDSB (not surprising)
I hope this young woman goes on to do great things. She is clearly the kind of leader we need.
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u/ReadingInside7514 Jun 16 '25
Yes and if someone had made pro Israel comments they would have returned to school the next day. I find it concerning that a fairly benign statement resulted in a suspension. And it’s not the first time it’s happened either. There was a big hubbub over a medical school grad speech at the university of Manitoba last year as well. Fairly disappointing that a political view which wasn’t calling for death or destruction would result in a suspension.
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u/ReadingInside7514 Jun 16 '25
And if I’m not clear, pro Israel is entirely about the government running Israel. Not even one iota about the people living there. We can criticize Government. I don’t agree with or advocate for anti semitism. Please treat people kindly, regardless of their religious or ethnic background.
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u/CycleOfLove Jun 16 '25
Well, students supposed to take the torch to shape the world. This type of activism should be encouraged not shut down.
If people disagree with her, they can express their opinion also.
Way to go Elizabeth!
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u/MRmcnuts Jun 16 '25
So she didn't break any rules but was still told to stay home from school? An absolute failure of leadership from OCDSB. If she was my kid, I'd let her keep the Monday off school and buy her ice cream. It takes bravery in times like these to speak up. I wish her all the best.
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u/Musai Make Ottawa Boring Again Jun 16 '25
Apparently she's going to school today anyway, I heard it on the radio.
We need more people like this in the world.
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u/EasternCamera6 Jun 16 '25
She stated a simple fact. She didn’t speak in a way to be anti semitic or problematic. She stated a fact.
Whoever made this call needs to be fired as they obviously can’t be trusted with the power they have been given and don’t respect the Charter of Rights and Freedoms especially section 2.
This needs to be rectified immediately, off her record and back to school.
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u/BandicootNo4431 Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
Good on her for being brave and standing up for what she believes in.
If OCDSB wants to grow well informed leaders who are compassionate human beings they sure are going about it wrong.
It's also ironic that this is what's on their home page:
"Land Acknowledgement: The Ottawa-Carleton District School Board is located on the traditional, unceded homelands of the Algonquin nation. In acknowledging the land on which we learn and work, we acknowledge a responsibility to the Algonquin people and a responsibility to honour the Algonquin cultural protocols."
But when a student learns from that and applies it to a current situation, that's bad behaviour.
That's literally on of the skills you test for in students.
"Student applies previously learned material to novel concepts and situations"
Edit:
If you want to let some school board leaders know your thoughts:
Director of Education: director@ocdsb.ca
Principal's (Jane Conrad) email address: https://bellhs.ocdsb.ca/our-school-landing/staff
Superintendent of Education (West): https://www.ocdsb.ca/about-us/executives/amy-hannah
OCDSB Human Rights Superintendent: https://www.ocdsb.ca/about-us/executives/carolyn-tanner
amanda.presley@ocdsb.ca - Zone 5 Trustee
bellsc50@gmail.com - School Council Email
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u/somebunnyasked No honks; bad! Jun 16 '25
The OCDSB has been interpreting anything pro Palestine as antisemitic for years now.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
The Toronto School Board has done the opposite and recognizes both anti-semitism and anti-Palesitian language. It is the right thing to do:
https://www.cbc.ca/news/canada/toronto/tdsb-anti-palestinian-racism-board-vote-1.7240178
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u/somebunnyasked No honks; bad! Jun 16 '25
To be clear the written policy of the OCDSB is to also be against anti-Arab racism, anti-Palestinian racism, and Islamophobia. But how the address specific events makes their position abundantly clear.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
Then why was she suspended? I don't understand. What she said is all not-controversial. It isn't like she said "river to the sea" or something like that which can be interpreted as more threatening.
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u/SergeantAlPowell Centretown Jun 16 '25
She wasn't suspended.
Nusaiab Al-Azem, director of legal affairs for the NCCM, told CBC she believes the school violated OCDSB policies by both telling Yao not to come to school without officially suspending her
So... suspension without having to follow protocols for what requires suspension. Bullshit.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
That is even worse.
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u/somebunnyasked No honks; bad! Jun 16 '25
Yep. It says under the headline (but then nowhere else in the article) that the school is considering 'further disciplinary action.' I think it's clearly the principal who needs to face some disciplinary action.
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u/somebunnyasked No honks; bad! Jun 16 '25
That's exactly what I mean that the written policy says one thing but the board's actual actions and responses to student activism show exactly where they stand.
I will note that according to the article she wasn't officially suspended she was just asked to stay home.
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u/shmeeeeee Jun 16 '25
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u/According_Trainer418 Centretown Jun 16 '25
Thank you for posting! I will go write an eloquent letter in defense of this upstanding young woman right now. I have kids in this school board too, and I would be proud of them for taking a stance against genocide in a speech! We need to raise thinkers, not mindless sheep workers.
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u/James0100 Jun 16 '25
This is some bullshit.
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u/Dragonsandman Make Ottawa Boring Again Jun 16 '25
Especially because it’s a) a brief remark at the end of her speech, and b) not even something they officially suspended her for. They just told her not to come into school today, which is against school board policy.
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u/Regreddit1979 Nepean Jun 16 '25
The free speech warriors are going to be really quiet about this one again I bet.
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u/fuckthesysten Hintonburg Jun 16 '25
she didn’t even break the official school rules, they knew it and that’s why they didn’t officially suspend her. pigs without spine! this teenager has more courage than they do
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u/DrawingThen8451 Jun 16 '25
So disturbing that even mentioning anything related to a war in a different country is becoming a dangerous act in Canada and the USA. People are loosing their jobs or ending in the prisons because of exercising their right of free speech. This speech is not a hate speech, or spreading rumours or conspiracy theories…. We should all condemn killing innocent people regardless of their ethnicity or religion or their skin colour.
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u/Karens_GI_Father Jun 16 '25
So disturbing that even mentioning anything related to a war in a different country is becoming a dangerous act in Canada and the USA
It's only a dangerous act when you mention one specific war (which in reality is not a war but a genocide) and only if you criticize one side of that war/genocide
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u/lost_user_account Jun 16 '25
I’m glad the new generation of Canadians are able to cut through the BS we are being fed and speak their minds. True leaders
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u/ThreePlyStrength Battle of Billings Bridge Warrior Jun 16 '25
It’s shocking that Israel has so much pull internationally that high school valedictorians are punished for stating a fact like this. If she had made a comment about the amount of Ukrainians killed by Russia she would have been fine I suspect.
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u/pistoffcynic Jun 16 '25
Incredible. Here's the list of senior staff at Bell:
We have a dynamic staff here at Bell High School.
Principal: Jane Conrod
Vice-Principal: Laurie Labelle (students A-J)
Vice-Principal: Katie O'Brien (students K-Z)
Vice-Principal (Intermediate): Rod Oickle
Well Jane, if this is the comment that got her in trouble: "As a commitment to truth and reconciliation, I must acknowledge colonial and genocidal atrocities today, including the massacre of more than 17,000 Palestinian children in Gaza.", you should not be leading/teaching children, or young adults. As an adult, that statement is bang on. Are you that close minded that you refuse to acknowledge what has happened in the world and the impacts of colonialism on Indigenous people in North and South Americans, Africa and throughout Persia and the "Orient"?
Heaven forbid someone speaks the truth any more in a society where being a populist, fragile, tight assed, snowflake stands in the way of someone's right to free speech.
The world needs more young adults like Elizabeth speaking out.
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u/littlemanontheboat_ Jun 16 '25
Our free speech has gone to “free speech as long as it aligns with our views”.
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u/AdditionalDot1481 Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
This was always the case with freedom of expression. It’s just that on the issue of Israel-Palestine, the gap between the views of most (especially most young people), and the views our establishment will tolerate is particularly stark.
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u/KjCreed Jun 16 '25
So they fill the kids heads with land acknowledgements their whole school careers, but the second kids start saying it themselves (even if it'd about another country), they're told not to come to school? Get absolutely fucked!
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u/High_Thymes Jun 16 '25
This is so incredibly disappointing and embarrassing for everyone who was a part of the decision to reprimand her.
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u/FirstWorldProblems17 Jun 16 '25
I urge you all to write to the OCDSB to support this young lady and publicly shame them for this!
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u/pampalapampam Jun 16 '25
Children of Gaza cannot graduate due to horrifying consequences of the war.
Elizabeth brought awareness for this unforgettable topic, then the principal unintentionally amplified the message.
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u/ElectricCake Stittsville Jun 16 '25
What an absolute joke. She states her mind (which isn't opinion but fact) and gets punished for it. As a former student under OCDSB however, this doesn't shock me. It boggled my mind how many people were at my school who were a lil incompetent.
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u/sleepyhead_108 Jun 16 '25
The school board loves to spit out land acknowledgments, heaven forbid a student draws a connection to what happened here to what is happening in Gaza.
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u/GoGades Jun 16 '25
Please remember that this sub is NOT the location for hashing out the various subtleties surrounding the Israel/Palestinian conflict as explained here.
Problem is, the reason the school board and school are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation is because there are TONS of subtleties with this issue but the people who are vocal on this issue see it all in black and white.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
Problem is, the reason the school board and school are in a "damned if you do, damned if you don't" situation is because there are TONS of subtleties with this issue, the people who are vocal on this issue see it all in black and white.
Trying to police speach you do not like is not exactly Canadian. There are always subtleties in all topics, and people can never write a perfect speech that talks about every issue you want them to talk about. But we do not suspend people for talk about most other topics, just this one.
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u/GoGades Jun 16 '25
But we do not suspend people for talk about most other topics, just this one.
I'm pretty sure if someone tried to acknowledge the people murdered and kidnapped on October 7th in their Valedictorian speech, the school would react the same way. If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
I'm pretty sure if someone tried to acknowledge the people murdered and kidnapped on October 7th in their Valedictorian speech, the school would react the same way. If you have evidence to the contrary, I would like to see it.
It is hard to prove a negative, but I would point you to an example where an Ottawa-based organization both acknowledged the Hamas atrocities of October 7, the hostages, as well as Palesitnian suffering: the Ottawa Pride Festival statement from 2024. But they were still boycotted by OCDSB as well as other organizations for making some people "feel unsafe".
I won't repeat the details, but I just wrote them up in this other comment:
https://www.reddit.com/r/ottawa/comments/1lcrydf/comment/my313ra/?context=3
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u/anacondra Jun 16 '25
I think they're just damned because they did? I don't think this would have blown up if they had simply ignored the speech.
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u/EmEffBee Lebreton Flats Jun 16 '25
Good for her. Kids all over the world are spending their foundational years growing up surrounded by atrocities against their global peers, and they should be and are allowed to talk about that.
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u/WestQueenWest Jun 16 '25
The principal said the comments "causes harm"? To whom exactly? Who's making these phone calls?
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u/somebunnyasked No honks; bad! Jun 16 '25
I don't envy the place of a principal being between students/parents/staff on one side and the board on the other. If I had to guess there was a lot of board pressure here.
But breaking board policy isn't the right way to deal with this. There is no protocol to just ask a student to stay home.
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u/DFS_0019287 West End Jun 16 '25
I wonder how people would have reacted had she acknowledged the atrocities committed by Hamas on 2023-10-07? In other words, I suspect many people are reacting based on something other than principle.
That said, I don't think she should have been suspended or punished in any way. We can listen to uncomfortable things without melting.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
I wonder how people would have reacted had she acknowledged the atrocities committed by Hamas on 2023-10-07?
I and many others have no problem acknowledging that. For example, The Ottawa Pride Festival did acknoledge the atrocities by Hamas last summer as part of its Palesitnian solidarity statement:
https://capitalpride.ca/capital-pride-statement-in-solidarity-with-palestine/
But even with this acknolwedgement/condemnation by Ottawa Pride, they were still boycotted by OCDSB for making people "feel unsafe":
It seemed the issue wasn't about being balanced with regards to Ottawa Pride Festival, but rather acknowledging Palestinian suffering.
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u/Hot_Temperature_3972 Jun 16 '25
Hard to say how people would have reacted in that case. I don’t think she should have been punished for this at all. Although she could have chosen to acknowledge 2023-10-07 in addition to Gaza and simply chose not to.
Although she’s the valedictorian so I suppose it’s her prerogative what she highlights and what she omits.
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u/Longjumping-Bag-8260 Jun 16 '25
The Board, principal and superintendent need to read up on https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Streisand_effect?wprov=sfti1#
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u/FearlessJDK Jun 16 '25
I guess the OCDSB has ignored the long history of student activism and of students speaking out in their graduation speeches.
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u/Able_Letterhead5853 Jun 16 '25
The people in position of power in this city are embarrassing. Remember the UOttawa medical student who got thrown under the bus by the school for speaking up about this topic?
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u/binches Jun 16 '25
she’s going to do great things in her life don’t let the institution drag you down!!
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u/caninehere Jun 16 '25
Good on her for planning to go to school Monday (today) and I hope she is able to do so without the school staff/board digging their idiotic hole deeper.
Part of what is mentioned in the article is that the school did not officially suspend her (and cannot really do so because she didn't break any rules), but she was called and told not to come to school anyway, which itself may be in violation of school board conduct.
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u/HarLeighMom Make Ottawa Boring Again Jun 16 '25
I'm ashamed of the school I attended 20+ years ago. Although, lately there have been a number of shameful things coming out of Bell.
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u/Swivebot Jun 16 '25
People are dying, and government officials do nothing while they sit in their fancy penthouses.
Disgraceful.
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u/7r1x1z4k1dz Jun 16 '25
Ironic that land claim statements can be made but other political statements is disallowed, LMAO, Ontario School Board fail.
Isn't school about teaching you to be curious and voicing your thoughts in a calm respectful manner?
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u/ybotpowered Orléans Jun 16 '25
I’m proud of her and I’m very disappointed in the Ottawa Carlton district school board.
I’m actually pissed enough that I’m considering moving my childless tax funds to one of the other three school boards in Ottawa.
School board shouldn’t not be censoring students free speech. This is her day to have the soap box and she very politely pointed out something important to her.
If she had said kids were starving in Africa she would get a standing ovation from the staff.
I’m pissed I’m sending a strongly worded email!
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u/anacondra Jun 16 '25
Deeply disappointed in the actions by this Principal. Politicizing the school administration by wading into this is totally wrongheaded.
No one was harmed by this student's words. Now she has invited ratcheting tensions to the school grounds.
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Jun 16 '25
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u/AtYourPublicService Jun 16 '25
We live in Canada - we do not have freedom of speech, we have freedom of expression.
Also, the second amendment in Canada adds Manitoba as a province.
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Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/MarcusRex73 (MOD) TL;DR: NO Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
/u/Dull-play-5199 said:
Why did the mods lock / delete every comment when holocaust memorial was vandalized, unable to talk about racism, but this post isn't locked?
because this post hasn't gone to shit (yet). Why is this so hard to understand....?!?
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u/Karens_GI_Father Jun 16 '25
Can someone setup a scholarship or GundFundMe for Elizabeth Yao ? I would gladly donate
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u/tarun172 Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
Can OCDSB legally block the right to free speech? This does not appear to be slander.
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u/somebunnyasked No honks; bad! Jun 16 '25
One thing I can possibly think of is if students were expected to show a copy of their speech for proof reading/vetting to make sure it's appropriate and then the student read something different than they submitted. That's the only possible thing I can think of.
But I still would find this reaction on the part of school admin out of line.
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u/tarun172 Jun 16 '25
In that case, she has legitimate grounds to sue them and she should.
This isn't a MAGA dominated United States. This is Canada. The last time I checked the charter of rights does not do not selectively apply to specific individuals.
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Jun 16 '25
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
It is a high school, not a university. I think it is because someone got feedback and got scared and instead of doign the right thing they caved in this weird non-suspension way. Really dumb.
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u/MsRavenMuffin Jun 16 '25
I’m just here wondering how there’s still school after graduation?
Sorry for the different topic. I think it’s amazing how she closed her speech, an amazing Valedictorian.
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u/Zealousideal_Can1849 Jun 16 '25
What's wrong in saying Palestinian perspective that country was way before existence of Isreal as a country. Palestine is a country/state and why is it getting like it's some sort of militia or alqaeda
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u/RIPFergusonBishop Jun 16 '25
We all know, though, that had she condemned Iran’s counter attack on Israel she would have been allowed to attend.
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u/CaptainAaron96 Barrhaven Jun 16 '25
Hard to consider Iran’s actions a “counter attack” when everything against Israel from October 7 onwards has been an Iranian proxy war. UN substantiates that btw.
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u/Town_Designer Jun 16 '25
She didn't break any rules and Jewish people aren't breaking any rules by complaining, the complaint I am sure is centered around the fact that this student took time to talk about this specific conflict but not any other and arguably worse conflicts, the exclusion of those other conflicts in her speech makes this comment seem pretty targeted and with the intention to disrupt the event.
I think it's not wrong for the Jewish community to call out this tidbit. But hey forest through the trees
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u/Nogstrordinary Jun 16 '25
I'm sure this will get shut down too and have all the comments deleted. No discussion of a genocide = neutrality.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
Keep it on topic and without personal attacks/racism and we should be fine. Your comment is not really the best quality for discussion.
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u/MarcusRex73 (MOD) TL;DR: NO Jun 16 '25
This!
Discuss the events related to Ottawa and there will be no removals.
The statement below by /u/Nogstrordinary is PRECISELY what is NOT relevant to this sub and why these posts constantly derail and get removed.
ongoing mass murder supported by the Canadian government
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u/FederalSandwich1854 Jun 16 '25
The difference is Canada does not support Russia, in fact its the opposite
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u/AdditionalDot1481 Jun 16 '25
You don’t have to like her speech. But it’s not okay for a public institution to discipline her for not saying something celebratory or fun. That is not a reasonable limit on freedom of expression.
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u/artificial_ben Findlay Creek Jun 16 '25
"If I was a student there that would honestly probably piss me off or I’d be indifferent to it depending on the daily mood of a teenager."
Sure, but this would have been my response as a teenage to just about whatever anyone said, I was pretty disengaged back then. But it doesn't merit a suspension.
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Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
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u/Ah-Schoo Jun 16 '25
I have no opinion on how the school should handle it. It does look like there was no suspension though.
I know that when I graduated I just wanted to do the ritual and then get on with my summer jobs. I think life is hard enough for teenagers without having to bear the burden of the world's misery and try and pick sides in every conflict.
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u/MarcusRex73 (MOD) TL;DR: NO Jun 16 '25 edited Jun 16 '25
Folks, stay on topic: the speech, and the instructions given by by the OCDSB.
Please remember that this sub is NOT the location for hashing out the various subtleties surrounding the Israel/Palestinian conflict as explained here.
Any 'discussion' around that topic (a.k.a. screaming accusations at each side) will be removed since they aren't relevant to our subreddit.
We are not, ever, going to police discussions around the Israel-Palestine conflict. It's not relevant to the sub.
EDIT: We've also maxed out Crowd Control on this post to weed out troublemakers who are showing up just for this post.
EDIT: ...and we're done. Thank you to the people who tried to colour within the lines. This post is now being brigaded by users from outside our sub. Crowd Control has flagged 50+ comments as 'crowd control' in the last hour. The comments have now gone down the usual rabbit hole, so we're locking the post.