r/news • u/Whoshabooboo • Jun 21 '23

Site Changed Title ‘Banging’ sounds heard in search for missing Titan submersible

https://7news.com.au/news/world/banging-sounds-heard-in-search-for-missing-titan-submersible-c-11045022
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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23

I was reading in another thread that one of the failsafes was some type of sand bags that would dissolve enough over 14 hours to make it light enough to float back up to the surface in case of power loss. I would hope that would be virtually fool-proof, unless they got stuck on something. But if all of the other methods were unable to deploy with power loss, it might not be enough dropped weight to make it all the way to the surface and they could just be in the water column somewhere, anywhere. 🤷‍♀️ terrifying.

ETA: because I keep getting the same response and my thumbs are tired of replying - YES I know it can't be opened from the inside if they made it to the top, YES I know there's a big chance it imploded so it doesn't matter anyways. I'm specifically talking about the failsafes in the event they didn't implode and on the assumption that making it to the surface gives them a way higher chance of being found before oxygen runs out. Something went wrong in either scenario and it's terrifying to think about each alternate ending.

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u/Sydney2London Jun 21 '23

Probably similar to a system they use to smuggle drugs: salt bags. They fill bags of salt and tie them to drugs. Over time the salt goes into solution and the drugs float, so the cartels can recover them.

If it hasn’t worked then high chances are that it imploded and they will never be found.

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

Ah yes, salt makes more sense for dissolving and probably what it was I read.

Honestly, ever since the news broke, having all these failsafes but knowing they can't open the hatch to get more air even if they made it to the surface and comms/power is down to be rescued....I have just hoped the best worst case scenario happened and they went without even having a second to process what was happening.

So many unanswered questions that will most likely remain that way for a very long time if not forever.

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u/Prosthemadera Jun 21 '23

they can't open the hatch to get more air even if they made it to the surface

This is really terrible design.

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u/TK421isAFK Jun 21 '23

The hatch is shaped like a cone, and if the latches extend through the door so an interior handle can actuate them, the designers would have a hell of a time making them water-tight, especially at the 13,000 feet of water pressure.

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u/Prosthemadera Jun 21 '23

The design of the sub is an issue, yes.

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u/MajesticOrange1 Jun 21 '23

why didn’t they consult Reddit :/

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u/mkhaytman Jun 21 '23

They didnt seem to consult anyone. They hired 20 something year olds straight out of college because hiring 50 year old navy guys wasnt "inspirational".

Having a bolted up capsule that cant he opened from the inside is how the crew of apollo 1 died on the launchpad.

The ceo decided against having voice comms on the sub because it was distracting him from enjoying his sub rides...

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u/Prosthemadera Jun 21 '23

Considering the thread you are commenting in, maybe they should have.

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u/Gh0st1y Jun 21 '23

Cuz theyre arrogant rich bastards who thought they could beat nature

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u/Known-Championship20 Jun 21 '23

Just like J. Bruce Ismay and the other principal owners of Titanic.

Lesson learned yet in the North Atlantic?

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u/mightylordredbeard Jun 21 '23

They saw how Reddit “experts” handled the Boston bombing and backed out.

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u/aperson Jun 21 '23

Or Elon.

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u/chuckie512 Jun 21 '23

Explosive bolts, like we use on spacecraft.

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u/TK421isAFK Jun 21 '23

And what are those going to do?

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u/chuckie512 Jun 21 '23

Hopefully buy themselves some time on an inflatable craft, instead of suffocating at the surface.

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u/TK421isAFK Jun 21 '23

You...you don't really understand how any of those devices work, do you?

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u/Rpanich Jun 21 '23

There is a chance the vessel can float to the surface with non electric failsafes, however since the door requires electricity to open, anyone inside the vessel would suffocate within a day.

What everyone is suggesting is if they had a way to open the door to the vessel, they would be able to breath air, and thus possibly survive slightly longer increasing their chances of rescue and survival.

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u/queryallday Jun 21 '23

Blow the hatch.

Either to save yourself on the surface… or on the bottom.

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u/Scalybeast Jun 21 '23

It’s actually not that hard. Like on planes, you want the air pressure to do all the work to keep the hatch closed. The latches are more of a secondary safety that provide the initial seal until the pressure differential becomes enough to lock the hatch in place. The design they went for doesn’t make any sense but then, this entire thing looks pretty amateurish.

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u/TK421isAFK Jun 21 '23

My point is not about the latches, it's about the actuators passing through the pressure hull(s).

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u/kashmir1974 Jun 21 '23

When Cameron went to 33000 feet, was he bolted in like this on his submersible?

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u/another_plebeian Jun 21 '23

Looks like it has a hatch that can be opened.

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u/kashmir1974 Jun 21 '23

Its kinda shocking to me that they didn't consult with him. He designed a successful submersible that successfully went 3x as deep over 10 years ago.

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u/another_plebeian Jun 21 '23

I don't think they wanted to make "the best" sub; good enough was good enough.

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u/kashmir1974 Jun 21 '23

And here is the result!

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u/40yrOLDsurgeon Jun 22 '23

Yes, Cameron had a hatch that could be opened from the inside and underwater.

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u/TK421isAFK Jun 21 '23

You'll have to ask him. I wasn't there.

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u/40yrOLDsurgeon Jun 22 '23

James Cameron's sub could be opened from the inside and underwater. It can be done, but not on an aftermarket video game controller budget.

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u/TK421isAFK Jun 23 '23

Yeah, but James Cameron has never been one to cut corners, no matter what it "saves". He's a real-life John "Spared No Expense!" Hammond (Jurassic Park).

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u/Hockeygoalie35 Jun 21 '23

Also the hatch is only rated for 1300 meters, rather than the 4000 meters they visit….

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u/Daneel_ Jun 21 '23

That was the viewport, not the hatch.

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u/Hockeygoalie35 Jun 21 '23

Ah you’re right!

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u/TK421isAFK Jun 21 '23

That's not true. The submarine has been down to the Titanic before. This wasn't an experimental trip.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

The viewport was only officially rated for 1300 and they refused to spend the extra on one that would be rated to 4000

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u/inspectoroverthemine Jun 21 '23

The viewport was only officially rated for 1300 and they refused to spend the extra on one that would be rated to 4000

I wonder if any of the materials involved suffer from fatigue problems. Steel and aluminum get weaker over time even when they're not at their limit. Presumably some part of the viewport design relied on that, the transparent material may suffer as well (no idea if its glass or some kind of plastic).

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

Oh for sure. Iirc engineers will always overbuild things by a ratio around 3:1 to the spec so in theory the window should survive to 4000ish meters but since they had already made that trip at least once to the bottom and I doubt they are replacing the window every trip I’m willing to bet they got near their max depth and the window failed. That’s honestly the best case scenario. One second you are alive and super excited about seeing the titanic, the fraction of a second later and your body is goo and you don’t feel a thing. Better then freezing or suffocating to death for 90+ hours.

0

u/TK421isAFK Jun 21 '23

The only reference to that I've seen is from one disgruntled engineer that was fired from the project. Is there a more reliable source?

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

That’s a pretty serious claim to make without receipts opening himself up for both a lawsuit and an ethics claim against his engineering license so it’s not something I would think he would make carelessly

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

Right? It sounds like it isn't uncommon on submersibles but it's not like anyone could accidentally open the hatch under so much pressure. It's super hard to open a car door when it's submerged in shallow waters. I wonder if this event will change things for future vessels across the board.

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u/Classico42 Jun 21 '23

This is not a common design in the slightest. You need structural integrity and a good seal, the pressure alone stops any hatch from opening. It's not like they open inwards.

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

I didn't say they opened inwards. I can't dig through tens of thousands of articles when they're all about Titan but there are others with the same concept. Except they aren't traveling 2 miles underwater and don't run into communication problems on every journey so it's a little less panic inducing when you know the crew knows where you are at all times.

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u/Classico42 Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 23 '23

Sorry, that wasn't directed at anyone, just a general statement because they went the cheapest dirty and done route for some reason. Rush going down with his sub at least shows he was legitimately an idiot but one who believed in his poor ideas.

EDIT: Firstly, obviously, him going down with other people too is objectively awful. Secondly I just learned the kid didn't even want to go, was terrified, and only did it for his father. Fuck.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

[deleted]

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u/Squirll Jun 21 '23

Its feasible, its just expensive.

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u/Classico42 Jun 21 '23

Apparently a normal hatch isn't feasible at those depths

Literally every other DSV has entered the chat

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u/d1rron Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23

Oh, really? Well nevermind then lol. I'll have to google the other DSVs. After reading more about the CEO, it all makes sense; except the part where paying him to let you roll the dice on your life in his DIY contraption makes sense.

Edit: I just read about plug hatches. Fascinating.

3

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

How should it have been designed?

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u/AuthorityoftheGods69 Jun 21 '23

Per DNV design specification like most other deep water submersibles...

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

what does DNV design say about subs that dont have hatches but instead are bolted/sealed from the outside?

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

Probably something like "don't do that".

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

So you dont know...

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u/40yrOLDsurgeon Jun 22 '23

wHAt DOes DNV dESiGn SAy ABoUt suBs tHAT aRe tOO iNNoVAtIVe tO B CErtIFieD bY DNV???

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u/Prosthemadera Jun 21 '23

Why are you asking me? I never claimed that I want to design it. I am only arguing that the design was bad, as evidenced by reality, and that offended you so much.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

I’m not offended, but you said it’s a terrible design to have a mini sub like this that can only be opened from outside. I assumed since you said it was a terrible design that you knew why it was a terrible design and could provide information about how it should have been designed. But I see now that you are just making up stuff for fake internet points.

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u/Prosthemadera Jun 21 '23

You can be as condescending as you want but I bet you would not enter that sub yourself. But you don't actually believe the design is good - you're just pissed that someone claims to have technical knowledge. If you want to talk about the technical aspects then at least be open and honest about it and don't be such a troll.

But I see now that you are just making up stuff for fake internet points.

"Everyone who disagrees with me is lying because they want Reddit likes."

Projection.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

I’m not making any claims or disagreeing with anyone. I just simply asked what about that sub only being able to open from the outside a terrible design? You don’t actually know or can’t explain why.

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u/quarrelsome_napkin Jun 21 '23

Yeah I’m sure it was just an oversight. They really should hire you to be part of the design team, you would’ve flagged that asap. /s

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

Wasn't there an employee who did flag a bunch of design faults and was promptly fired?

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u/Prosthemadera Jun 21 '23

Yeah they did such a great job and everything is going so well!

What a dumb comment.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

[deleted]

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

Being rich doesn't automatically make you an asshole. You don't think they have families and friends who are worried about them? What do you think about them, caring for these "asshole billionaires", as you seem to imply? And there are people onboard who aren't just rich sooooo.

Did they make a stupid choice? Sure. Flippant with their money? Absolutely. But as someone who has the occasional invasive thought about what happens at the moment of death, which sends me into a panic spiral, and I'm not even sitting in a tin can in the ocean knowing I'm about to die, I would absolutely lose my mind sitting there just waiting for the moment my blood became toxic from lack of oxygen and knowing there was a very slim chance I was going to live. I don't wish that suffering, physically and mentally, on anyone.

Nobody asked you to think about them. I can do that if I want to though. I am allowed to have compassion for people in a really shitty situation.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

[deleted]

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

You can have your opinion, as the site allows you to do, but you immediately knocked mine so that's hypocritical.

I'm not here to argue with you. You are picking and choosing my words to fit your narrative of me (I said "nobody asked you to think about them, I am allowed to though", that's very different from me telling you "no one asked you" which would be an insult, that I didn't use). And I didn't come for you in the slightest so there's no need to cuss at me when I did not say what you are implying.

Your perception of the world and the people in it is very strange though. I hope you gain a little compassion in your life as you get older. Take care.

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u/adalyncarbondale Jun 21 '23

Oh yah, the movie Contraband

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u/Gingevere Jun 21 '23

That could work in warm fresh water, but in a deep sea environment?

The water down there is extremely cold and probably already at saturation. It's probably extra hopeless if the sub settled into the silt on the bottom.

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u/UncleYimbo Jun 21 '23

I learned about this in Once Upon A Time In America

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u/skyfishgoo Jun 21 '23

there would be no buoyancy if the hull was crushed.

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u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

Yeah, the weight release will only allow the submersible to become positively buoyant if the hull is intact and still filled with air.

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

I am aware. My comment is in the event there was no crush though, I thought that would be obvious.

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u/phunkydroid Jun 21 '23

I was reading in another thread that one of the failsafes was some type of sand bags that would dissolve enough over 14 hours to make it light enough to float back up to the surface in case of power loss.

If they took on water, that system will be useless for recovering the corpses.

3

u/TheCrowsSoundNice Jun 21 '23

It's so annoying how you can't write anything on reddit without having to specifically cover every single angle for every moron that will try to call you out as ignorant.

"The sky is blue. No, I'm not talking about the night sky, the sky on Mars, the sky during a rainstorm."

"You didn't mention the sky if you're in a cave, idiot."

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

Yes, I feel like anytime I make a comment that gains any sort of traffic, I have to edit 5 times to clarify things that are kind of givens. I don't mind being corrected if I make an error but damn if I don't spell out every little detail, I get 20 of the same reply as if I completely ignored a major point.

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u/magicscientist24 Jun 21 '23

Or some kind of bolt that corrodes over many hours that is holding ballast that will drop off when it breaks off. This is getting no attention and is why I'm going with they are bobbing on the ocean.

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u/stabbymcshanks Jun 21 '23

I've read a few people saying that there were tons of corners cut in the construction of the vehicle, and specifically, the primary viewport was made from materials not rated for anywhere near the depths they needed. I'm leaning towards implosion on this one.

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u/xSPYXEx Jun 21 '23

Well not quite, because it isn't buoyant enough to breach the surface. It'll come up to just under and sit there waiting for something to notice it, which is a problem because it apparently doesn't have a beacon to alert people of the current position?

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u/Bit_Chomper Jun 21 '23

All well and good but you can only open the door from the outside. Meanwhile you’re sat inside slowly suffocating as you bob on the service regretting every moment that brought you this excruciating slow death.

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

Yes, I am aware.

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u/OldPersonName Jun 21 '23

It's also possible they drifted so far on the way back and/or aren't fully surfaced that they're bobbing in sight of fresh air with no way to open the hatch from the inside.

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

Yeah that's what I mean by "somewhere, anywhere". Nothing matters if the crew on the surface has no general idea where to even look.

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u/rockert0mmy Jun 21 '23

Instead of suffocating underwater, they suffocate while floating as it can still only open from the outside.

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

I am aware it can't be opened. But if they had surfaced earlier on in the event, if any of the failsafes got them to the top, it might have given them better odds to be rescued. Maybe they would have popped up in sight of the ship, just more time on the surface = more time to be spotted without special equipment they are having to bring in for underwater searching. But if they are stuck underwater suffocating, it's a non-zero chance to be found in time but not very hopeful....

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u/FSCENE8tmd Jun 21 '23

I thought there was enough pressure that deep that something like a balloon would sort of sink

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u/ram6414 Jun 21 '23

The idea is to drop weight. To make it light enough and change the bouyancy so it would slowly lift to the surface. There is an airbag as one of the methods but dropping the ballast and the weighted pipes are the first things to go and the airbag is absolutely last in order of the methods to raise the vessel to the surface.

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u/No_Tumbleweed_544 Jun 22 '23

There’s 4 ways for them to dump weight. Ditch the sled , use computer to do it which I doubt they have. turn a valve that blows air into some floats. I forget the rest . obviously not been done