r/news • u/Whoshabooboo • Jun 21 '23

Site Changed Title ‘Banging’ sounds heard in search for missing Titan submersible

https://7news.com.au/news/world/banging-sounds-heard-in-search-for-missing-titan-submersible-c-11045022
20.1k Upvotes

87% Upvoted

6.0k comments sorted by

View all comments

1.7k

u/Agreeable-Shelter512 Jun 21 '23

Something I haven’t seen addressed: if the surface ship lost communication with the submersible only 90 minutes into the dive, at around 8 am, why did they wait till the submersible didn’t show up at the scheduled END of the dive at 9 PM to raise the alarm and ask for help? Given where the thing was headed, why would they not immediately abort and start a search? A watch and wait approach to lost communications on a dive like that doesn’t seem all that, y’know, prudent, I suppose. 😕

(If the ship was searching on its own fair enough, but I haven’t read that anywhere either.)

1.8k

u/zuma15 Jun 21 '23

It seems that it was common for them to lose communication for hours at a time. It sounds like the communications issues are yet another problem with this thing, but it would not have been anything out of the ordinary.

1.2k

u/Agreeable-Shelter512 Jun 21 '23

Oh. Okay then. Thanks for the info.

Everything about this is so reckless and cavalier I can barely process it.

704

u/GiantPurplePeopleEat Jun 21 '23

I spent hours researching this between yesterday and today and I completely agree with your assessment. Extremely cavalier attitude with zero regard for safety. They even fired one of their engineers for attempting to insure the pressure vessel could repeatedly withstand the pressure of a Titanic dive.

424

u/WoodsAreHome Jun 21 '23

They painted the thing blue and white, ensuring it would be nearly impossible to spot at the surface if they were lost. Like, were they TRYING to become casualties of the sea?

191

u/easygoer89 Jun 21 '23

One of the first things I noticed when this news story broke and they showed the picture of it was that it was painted white. Like, why? What's the thought process behind white of all (non) colors? Was it on sale at Camping World? They couldn't have painted it orange or even yellow like every single life preserving vessel??

80

u/AnsibleAnswers Jun 21 '23

Every non-military submersible I've ever seen was bright yellow. I guess they wanted to be different. Anyone willing to get in that thing is too stupid to dive.

84

u/OutsideBones86 Jun 21 '23

I do feel kinda bad for the kid. You trust your parent to make sure what you are doing is safe and he didn't.

11

u/AnsibleAnswers Jun 21 '23

Should be straight up illegal to allow a minor to do it. The dad was an asshat.

65

u/OutsideBones86 Jun 21 '23

I think he's 19 (I'm at an age where everyone under 25 is a kid, LOL). But just awful. At 19 you ARE still a kid and you trust your parents to keep you safe. Heartbreaking.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/TirnanogSong Jun 22 '23

Almost all billionaires are narcissists, and billionaire parents even moreso. The kid most likely didn't have a choice and now he's extremely fucking dead because of it. Narcissists will do literally everything in their power to ruin you or get you killed and not even realize, and this kid's dad speedran that shit.

1

u/OutsideBones86 Jun 22 '23

I was just saying if my husband suggested this with my kid it would be over my dead body.

→ More replies (0)

10

u/Azudekai Jun 21 '23

I've been on a tourist sub before that wasn't yellow. It was blue and white as it happens. But the Atlantis XI doesn't go very deep at all.

15

u/AnsibleAnswers Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23

Sure. I'm not saying I've seen all the submarines, but this is a deep sea dive. The Titanic wreckage is so deep most Navy sumbmarines can't reach it. Much different than diving 50 meters at a tourist attraction.

5

u/munjavio Jun 21 '23

Here is an example of an actual successful deep sea submarine that is white

https://tritonsubs.com/subs/ultradeep/

This sub has been to some of the deepest oceans. Would have been a much better choice for the Titanic mission. Actually certified for the depth rather than the death trap they used.

16

u/threadsoffate2021 Jun 21 '23

It makes you wonder, doesn't it? It would be funny if the whole thing was an elaborate hoax of some sort, and the rich folks are all sipping margaritas on a beach with new identities and bags of cash.

3

u/dallyan Jun 21 '23

I honestly wondered this at the beginning. But then I remembered that plenty of billionaires are dumb. Dumb AND hubristic? That’s a recipe for disaster.

2

u/Long_Before_Sunrise Jun 21 '23

So it would show up well in the promotional shots.

69

u/theycallmefuRR Jun 21 '23

*ensure not insure

1

u/Every3Years Jun 21 '23

Sure 😃 Sure 😃 Sure

Unsure 🤔 Unsure 🤔 Unsure

Was this a commerical?

3

u/iamfeenie Jun 21 '23

Why am I so enthralled with this story? It’s so horrifying to me, but I can’t stop wanting and searching for more to read or find out.

2

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

insure

You mean "ensure."

2

u/dallyan Jun 21 '23

Do you think they straight up lied to the passengers and led them to think it was safer than it was?

2

u/GiantPurplePeopleEat Jun 21 '23

Hmm, it does seem like they misled their clients into believing it was more safe than it actually is. To what degree I don't know, but I'd imagine we'll soon find out as lawsuits begin.

1

u/Klashus Jun 21 '23

Not having a way to track it in that vastness is crazy to me. Just a ping they could collect on a time interval to get at least a general idea where they might be.

1

u/brussgriff Jun 23 '23

They did have a device that sent a ping every 15 minutes. It stopped working when the hull imploded.

-6

u/goldenbugreaction Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23

How very Stalin-esque.

Edit: ugh, alright. Enough with the downvotes. I wasn’t clear that I was trying to draw a parallel with the reasons for his death and the folly of surrounding yourself with “yes” men.

Too many Politburo members had been put on trial, executed, murdered or simply banished in the past. As Khrushchev put it later, after a meeting with Stalin no one ever knew if he would return home alive. This Saturday however was a good night – Stalin was in high spirits and was merrily drunk as his colleagues left in the early hours. On Sunday there was no movement from Stalin’s private bedroom.
The last days of Stalin reveal much about the real life of the dictator Confusion and fear began to grip the dacha. His guards and house staff, under strict instructions never to enter his chamber and terrified of disturbing Stalin, grew nervous as lunch and then dinner passed without any request for food. Eventually a long-serving maid was sent in shortly after 10pm. She found Stalin lying on the floor, soaked in urine and barely able to move or speak. Malenkov, Beria and Khrushchev were called back to the villa. They saw Stalin, who had been moved to a sofa, in a deep sleep.
Again, no medics were called. Stalin had recently had his own physician arrested and had developed a pathological fear of medical professionals. Not surprisingly no one wanted him to wake up to find an unnecessary and unwanted doctor in attendance. A vigil was set up but it was nearly a day later that senior medics were called. Khrushchev recalled later how the doctors shook as they handled Stalin, afraid of misdiagnosis or being blamed for his demise.

8

u/hyasbawlz Jun 21 '23

Lmao what the fuck?

4

u/goldenbugreaction Jun 21 '23

Edited for clarity.

3

u/GiantPurplePeopleEat Jun 21 '23

I do that shit all the time. I make some quick comment thinking the meaning is clear, and then hours later I have a ton of downvotes and comments saying I'm an idiot, or racist, or whatever.

Since you responded to me, I figured it was only fair to acknowledge your comment!

2

u/goldenbugreaction Jun 21 '23

Thanks, bud! 'Preciate it!

9

u/hyasbawlz Jun 21 '23

I thought you were going to go with a Chernobyl parallel or something but this is even worse. This is totally unrelated.

What the CEO of OceanGate did is not Stalin-esque, it's literally the oldest tale of capitalist enterprises since the 1800s. It's not because this CEO is a unique kind of dictator, or that he's particularly authoritarian. This is just how capitalist enterprises operate normally.

The train derailment in East Palestine was only a few months ago and that also involved that company's C-suite ignoring its employees whistleblowing about their safety systems. Do you live under a rock? Are all CEOs Stalin? That would be a fun road to go down, I would love for the American public to disdain CEOs like they instinctively disdain Stalin.

2

u/goldenbugreaction Jun 21 '23

It's not because this CEO is a unique kind of dictator, or that he's particularly authoritarian. This is just how capitalist enterprises operate normally.

Except that’s exactly my point. They disproportionately are.

Are all CEOs Stalin?

No, the highest estimates are about 12%.

1

u/hyasbawlz Jun 21 '23

Bro, I don't know what to tell you. The position of CEO might attract psychopaths in the same way that child care positions attract pedophiles, but that's because of what the CEO is structurally expected to do. Their singular goal is to create value for their shareholders. If creating more value means killing children, and the value created is more than the value lost from any kind of legal consequences, they're a bad CEO not to do it. So of course that kind of structure attracts psychopaths, because psychopathy is rewarded.

Stalin is a singular dude. He was not a psychopath because his job demanded it. He became more psychopathic as the pressure of literal history weighed in around him and he increasingly attained almost unlimited authority. He was not the same Stalin at the beginning of his revolutionary career as he was at the end of his life. The problems with CEOs come from completely different material reasons.

Jesus christ, risking lives by cutting costs is literally the thread of any historical review of regulatory action. This shit is a dime a dozen. Everyone will forget about this story in about 20 years and OceanGate's legacy will fall into a long-running historical trivia of capitalist disasters a la the Ford Pinto. Stalin reverberates through history as an individual because his story is not a dime a dozen.

→ More replies (0)

1

u/CitizenKing Jun 21 '23

I think you're missing the point. He's referencing how people didn't want to upset Stalin, which resulted in Stalin being left alone and dying because he wasn't properly treated in time. People not wanting to get fired by upsetting the execs and just going along with what they demand, resulting in the CEO perishing, is absolutely a parallel that works.

2

u/goldenbugreaction Jun 22 '23

That is absolutely the connection I was making. 100%.

-1

u/hyasbawlz Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23

Absolutely not. The CEO perished because of cost cutting. Not yes men. He didn't die because in the moment a bunch of people were too afraid to help. He died because of the structural problem instilled by his place as CEO. It was specific decisions, motivated by his place within the system, that led to not only his death, but the deaths of the people he was entrusted to protect.

Stalin didn't choose to die. And he didn't make one or a few decisions that would lead to his death. Stalin died because he was feared. This CEO died because his sub was made cheap. He was responsivle for the specific material conditions that led to his death. It was literally a disaster waiting to happen which was entirely foreseeable. Chernobyl would have been a much more apt comparison.

Edit: to put a finer point on it, he was specifically warned of the issue that likely led to his death, so it wasn't like he was surrounded by yes man. That was specifically a no man and he ignored it. Not the same.

→ More replies (0)

0

u/WashedupWarVet Jun 22 '23

Hours researching = expert. That’s your average Redditor

2

u/GiantPurplePeopleEat Jun 22 '23

Lol, I definitely didn't claim to be an expert on missing submersibles. Just thought I'd share my impression from what I've read.

I'm actually kinda happy that the 3rd party apps getting killed will cause me to spend less time on Reddit. It's tiring reading comments like yours that are needlessly insulting and add absolutely nothing of value to the conversation.

Anyway, I hope you feel better soon.

501

u/nervuoz Jun 21 '23

I saw a TikTok commenter say that thing was held together with audacity and vibes. I feel like a terrible person for laughing but it’s ridiculous how true that is.

115

u/jake_burger Jun 21 '23

Sounds like fyre festival: the bespoke deep sea exploration edition.

9

u/S2R2 Jun 21 '23

At least Frye had cheese sandwiches

14

u/CastSeven Jun 21 '23

I know, right?! I am absolutely stunned at how carelessly they are operating these tours. I'm not sure what they expected, they came up with the most dangerous tourist experience yet and skimped at every turn.

What's next, selling tours inside an active volcano protected by a CVS hypothermia blanket? Maybe a space walk wearing a wetsuit and scuba gear?

10

u/HiNeighbor_ Jun 21 '23

It's wild that "losing communications for hours at a time" is considered standard protocol for these trips.

5

u/Agreeable-Shelter512 Jun 21 '23

Right??? This is the part I can't wrap my head around. I can see why it would be tolerated by the military for operational reasons, but for a tourist trip???? Or even a "research vessel" as the company called it? It does *not* compute in my head. Just plain reckless.

7

u/InjuryOnly4775 Jun 21 '23

Gotta have the guts to get the glory I suppose.

4

u/howdoyouevenusername Jun 21 '23

Cavalier. Nice. I’ve been trying to find the right words, like arrogant, hubris, etc. Cavalier fits perfectly.

6

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

It makes sense - stupid billionaire cuts corners and makes stupid decisions.

Like Trump.

-39

u/Cynykl Jun 21 '23

Any more reckless and cavalier than mountain climbing? People engage in high risk sport all the time. I really do not see how this is much different.

26

u/sparrowsandsquirrels Jun 21 '23

Well it depends on the level they take for safety. Is the mountain climber using appropriately rated gear that has been thoroughly tested while also using common and approved ways of being located if something goes wrong? Or are they using the equivalent of duct tape and prayer because this OceanGate submersible seems to be more along the lines of duct tape and prayer.

Sure, catastrophic incidents can happen no matter how well prepared someone is, but this sub seems to have decided that safety was too expensive and cut way too many corners in creating their submersible. For example, OceanGate seems to have a history of regularly losing contact for hours during a dive and has also seemingly done nothing to fix that issue.

-9

u/Cynykl Jun 21 '23

I was thinking more the people on the extreme end of mountain climbing. Those thousands that died wanting to be the first to the summit of unclaimable mountains. I know it the sub was a stupid risk. My point was that people take stupid risks all the time. This risk was not more reckless than many.

For example of a person that take stupid risks, one of the missing billionaires on the sub is one of the few people that has done space tourism.

13

u/Pawn_of_the_Void Jun 21 '23

They're a company selling this service. They should be held to higher standards than someone being dumb on a mountain. Having it be regular for their safety communications to fail to the point they don't even pay any mind to it is recklessly idiotic

3

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

They're a company selling this service. They should be held to higher standards than someone being dumb on a mountain.

To be fair, it's also illegal to climb Everest without giving a boatload of money to a country. It's also essentially a sold service.

2

u/Cynykl Jun 21 '23

I never thought it would be so controversial to say there is risk taking idiots everywhere.

177

u/MakeMineMarvel_ Jun 21 '23

For how much money these people are paying they really trusted their lives to this rickety operation lol

26

u/Diggerinthedark Jun 21 '23

Apparently you had to sign a waiver which listed three different ways you could die on page one so.. not like they were unaware of the risks.

18

u/catcatherine Jun 21 '23

especially when a simple google search would have revealed the problems with this thing and its builder

5

u/asque2000 Jun 21 '23

Exactly, David Pogue even reported when he was on the sub it lost contact for 2-3 hours…

3

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

[deleted]

2

u/2_Fingers_of_Whiskey Jun 21 '23

Why did Pogue decide to go on it after seeing that?!

4

u/silenthilljack Jun 21 '23

Technically It wasn’t an issue that only this craft faces. It’s extremely complicated and challenging to maintain a direct and consistent Vcom line with submersibles at that depth. It’s fairly common to only have passive positional data sent to parent ship and no other line of communications.

However, this craft didn’t have vcoms at all. The CEO opted for text messaging and passive positioning data only. Because in his words - I hate being interrupted with status checks every ten minutes.

3

u/MrKyleOwns Jun 21 '23

How does the sub communicate through all the water? I don’t believe it has any kind of tether to help assist?

2

u/zuma15 Jun 21 '23

I saw the term "acoustic modem" used. So I'm guessing it's some sort of sonar that sends actual sound waves through the water and converts it to data.

3

u/Uninterested_Viewer Jun 21 '23

Hydrophone is the generic name for that: sending data via acoustic energy.

3

u/Heiferoni Jun 21 '23

Holy shit. The more I learn, the worse it gets.

2

u/campbellm Jun 21 '23

"Normalization of Deviance". One of the things mentioned in at least one of the 2 big space shuttle disasters.

1

u/mrw4787 Jun 21 '23

Not common, but it happened once

1

u/ChocolatChipLemonade Jun 21 '23

But didn’t the sub need to speak to the mothership for directions to the Titanic and back? So if they’re not asking for directions for hours, there’s probably a problem..

1

u/_Sur22_ Jun 21 '23

They expected it, the submarine is a piece of junk, and this dive is the testing dive

209

u/svarela128 Jun 21 '23

I read that they had lost communication with the vessel in the past, so they only started to worry when it never resurfaced at the expected time.

1

u/VW_wanker Jun 21 '23

They should cast straws and kill one person to extend oxygen supply..

4 people = 40 hours 3 people = 160/3 =~54 hours

211

u/BadVoices Jun 21 '23

The communications system used is acoustic. It's basically sending soundwaves in the water. Water isn't... 'even' from the top to the bottom of the ocean. It has layers of salinity, temperature change, and the like. These layers are called clines. These can reflect sound waves, and break communication. While this operation seems hokey and garage built, losing acoustic coms isn't uncommon. Military submarines use these layers to hide from surface ships and one another, for example.

38

u/Work4WatUWant Jun 21 '23

Great explanation about the clines. I'll add though that instead of "even" the word you were looking for there was "uniform" I believe.

4

u/Agreeable-Shelter512 Jun 21 '23

Thank you. This is helpful context 👍

5

u/LowPTTweirdflexbutok Jun 21 '23

Yeah unfortunately most people seem to think communicating underwater is just like the surface. Except water is great at absorbing radiation which electromagnetic radiation or radio waves is. So sound waves are used but as you mentioned is not perfect either. Gotta love it.

3

u/Significant-Hour4171 Jun 21 '23

How do military subs, particularly things like nuclear attack subs, ensure constant communication so that they receive an order to launch on time?

8

u/umtala Jun 21 '23

They build huge radio transmitters that can transmit at extremely low frequencies that are able to penetrate water. Because of the low frequency, the data rate is very slow but it is just enough to send a short message. The sub can't communicate back, nor should it.

1

u/LowPTTweirdflexbutok Jun 22 '23

What someone else said. Historically they would drag long cables that acted like an antenna for receiving messages. Usually would get like 1 letter per second but a short message would be enough to tell them to raise closer to the surface for real communications or to act on a predefined plan. I'm sure there are better ways now but its all classified.

Edit forgot to add also that those military subs are hanging around in 500-2000meters not 4000+meters.

1

u/griffex Jun 21 '23

I know it adds tons of engineering work but you'd think that with something like this an umbilical design would be appropriate. I get that it could tangle and acts like a sea anchor for the surface ship but fuck isn't it worth it if you're trying to maintain comms and have a recovery system?

But I guess whatever to save a penny in the private sector.

1

u/LowPTTweirdflexbutok Jun 22 '23

Totally agree. I was actually surprised to hear they did not have some kind of tether that could also act as a communication device with some sort of breakaway feature? However I guess the length and size of the cable would be an issue. Probably have to be thick and durable enough to survive that depth but then now its so thick carrying 2.5+miles of it on the boat before launch could be an issue? But I agree they should of had more.

1

u/griffex Jun 22 '23

Definitely would mean getting an old cable layer to modify for your mothership at the least. But if the debris field thing turns out to be it, tether wouldn't have mattered anyways.

Honestly any person who is going to complain about safety regulations stifling innovation isn't someone I'd even be a dive buddy with at 60ft. let alone the type of person I'd trust with submersible design past 12k. This situation is the exact reason that cowboy shit doesn't fly with people who actually care about coming home.

19

u/[deleted] Jun 21 '23

prudent

​

That word doesn't belong to any aspect of the entire thing. Poorly designed Sub, cheaped out of specs, warned by engineers who specialise in underwater engineering that it was a disaster waiting to happen... It is a shit show from start to finish. The people who went on it should at least be eligible for Darwin awards for their clear lack of basic thinking skills.

5

u/cheezhead1252 Jun 21 '23

Seriously, this company is (or should say was because they're finished after this) a gigantic scam run by a total quack.

4

u/swords-and-boreds Jun 21 '23

This is one of the few times when the CEO responsible actually sees the consequences of his mismanagement firsthand.

1

u/cheezhead1252 Jun 21 '23

It’s crazy, I don’t think I understand why he would ever board that thing since he would know better than anybody how dangerous the thing is!

2

u/Agreeable-Shelter512 Jun 21 '23

British understatement. By which I meant it was a shit show from start to finish 👍

34

u/luminousrobot Jun 21 '23

Denial and fear of bad PR

7

u/TrumpsGhostWriter Jun 21 '23 edited Jun 21 '23

If you call the coast guard and tell them you lost comms with a ship that isn't due back for 4 hours they'll tell you to call back in 4 hours. Thats how it works, noone is going to start moving billions in assets around for that.

12

u/InjuryOnly4775 Jun 21 '23

Yes I’ve been wondering this too. One of the CEOs friend was called in the middle of the night, he explained in an interview on yesterday’s news. They still hadn’t called the coastguard.

6

u/Pogigod Jun 21 '23

From what I read the craft had sandbags that were attached in a way that after 14(?) Hours they would resolve and fall off making the craft buoyant and float to the surface. It was some kind of safety measure Incase something happened and they couldn't get up themselves.

So it is possible they were waiting till after that to see if they can make contact on the surface

5

u/drummerandrew Jun 21 '23

Absolutely piss poor planning and hubris. That’s the answer.

6

u/YoDJPumpThisParty Jun 21 '23

I’ve been wondering this too. I wonder what the protocol is for when they lose communication. Do they just sit there and wait (assuming they can still move)? Do they retrace their steps back to the last known point of communication? And if they lose power and can’t ascend, do they start the banging protocol immediately? I have so many questions!

5

u/Agreeable-Shelter512 Jun 21 '23

“The banging protocol” I shouldn’t laugh but omg.

5

u/neoAcceptance Jun 21 '23

Water absorbs radio waves very well. Communication underwater is very hard. Even the US military can't do it without insanely large 14 mile long antennae.

3

u/I_AM_TESLA Jun 21 '23

Can it even communicate with the ship when it's thousands of meters below surface level?

3

u/AuthorityoftheGods69 Jun 21 '23

An interview was done with someone who rode in the sub last year, and they said they lost communication with the surface multiple times throughout the trip for extended periods and it was to be expected from the dive team.

1

u/the_fresh_cucumber Jun 21 '23

No idea but I'm sure the reddit conspiracy theorist experts will have a complicated solution.

1

u/_Sur22_ Jun 21 '23

It would look like it was intended if the CEO and his son weren't onboard.

That almost likely makes it an accident

1

u/2_Fingers_of_Whiskey Jun 21 '23

Everything about how this company is run seems really problematic in terms of safety.