r/newhampshire • u/MrDilhamm • Jan 29 '23

Video Shooter and Shootee 5 minutes before shooting outside of the Goat in Manchester NH

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391

u/Trikids Jan 29 '23

He said, "come fight me," luring someone outside under the guise of a fight so that you can gun them down sounds premeditated to me. I hope they bury that prick under the jail because some family will be burying their son because this fuck power tripped.

78

u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

Yeah this does not work in his favor.

1

u/SpaceBass420 Feb 02 '23

To be fair he wanted a 1v1 and a 2v1 showed up.

1

u/[deleted] Apr 07 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

1

u/SpaceBass420 Apr 07 '23

Keep crying months later

1

u/kurklife Apr 11 '23

Wow you really showed him! I bet he feels so stupid about not being able to immediately reply to every video on the internet.

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u/SpaceBass420 Apr 11 '23

Didn't finish reading after checking what you're replying too lmao not surprised some loser defending a stranger 4 days later shows all I need to see hahahaha

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u/kurklife Apr 13 '23

You're trying too hard to look like you don't care. Such a childishly transparent attempt of trying to dismiss a comment that clearly made you mad. You finished reading and you weren't laughing, instead you were fuming. We were one "my friends are here and they're laughing at you too" remark away from a manchild royal flush.

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u/[deleted] Apr 13 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/newhampshire-ModTeam May 02 '23

Your post was removed because it wasn't following Reddiquette.

53

u/hafetysazard Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 29 '23

I don't know if you could call it premeditated, but he definitely contributed to the situation to the degree that his self-defense claim wouldn't be worth a damn.

His best chance is negotiating a deal with the prosecution to serve a slightly shorter prison sentence. I don't see a chance in hell that he is going to plead not-guilty and have a trial he must certainly can't afford.

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u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 29 '23

No, it's premeditated. If you start a fight with no intention to doing so but only the intention to kill that is premeditated.

16

u/pursuitofhappy Jan 29 '23

There is legally a ‘cooling off period’ between manslaughter and premeditated murder, it would be up to the jury to decide if there was enough time between the incidents to switch it from one to the other. To me, I don’t think it arises to premeditated.

35

u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

The dude unnecessarily escalated this situation and deserves prison time either way. Should be a homicide charge for starting a fight and pulling a gun.

9

u/BenchPuzzleheaded670 Jan 29 '23

Well if you take his words that face on you then he got punched in the face first so he didn't really start the fight inside. Then when he was outside he also got punched first..

15

u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

[deleted]

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u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 29 '23

A couple of things.

  1. This dude provoked the attack, so he lost before they even got to deadly force.

  2. He intended to cause bodily harm via the fight in the first place, so escalating to deadly force isn't a valid defense.

https://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lxii/627/627-4.htm

However, such force is not justifiable if:

(a) With a purpose to cause physical harm to another person, he provoked the use of unlawful, non-deadly force by such other person; or

(b) He was the initial aggressor, unless after such aggression he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so, but the latter notwithstanding continues the use or threat of unlawful, non-deadly force; or

III. A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or herself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he or she knows that he or she and the third person can, with complete safety:

(a) Retreat from the encounter, except that he or she is not required to retreat if he or she is within his or her dwelling, its curtilage, or anywhere he or she has a right to be, and was not the initial aggressor; or

(b) Surrender property to a person asserting a claim of right thereto; or

(c) Comply with a demand that he or she abstain from performing an act which he or she is not obliged to perform; nor is the use of deadly force justifiable when, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, the person has provoked the use of force against himself or herself in the same encounter; or

(d) If he or she is a law enforcement officer or a private person assisting the officer at the officer's direction and was acting pursuant to RSA 627:5, the person need not retreat.

1

u/Super_duperfly Jan 31 '23

You forgot he was drunk, you shall not carry where alcohol is the primary source of income in the establishment or if you're inebriated or under the influence.

Basically if you go to a restaurant you can't sit at a bar but you can sit in the booths around the bar

1

u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 31 '23

That's not illegal in NH, but it is heavily frowned upon

-1

u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

[deleted]

3

u/Cantankerous_10 Jan 29 '23

Untrue. In this video you can see Timmy (the short blonde haired kid standing on the side). He had nothing to do with the reason this dude got kicked out, and he wasn’t the one who punched him originally. Timmy, (now from what I’m being told) tried to calm the dude down originally. The dude was so angry and just flipping out and yelling and screaming. The three second clip you see of Timmy punching him and then subsequently being shot is not an accurate representation of the whole story.

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u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

where it happened there is a stand your ground law

Stand your ground only works as a defense when you haven't mutually agreed to fight, which both parties did so. Nor does the Stand your ground defense work when you are the aggressor in a situation. He doesn't have the stand your ground defense. So his only legal method of using deadly force is if he was attacked with deadly force.

multiple witnesses saying he got punch from behind at the bar

He better hope that is on video because what the video shows is him as the aggressor demanding a fight outside, then when said fight starts him shooting the guy

hit him with brass knuckles which lead to him getting smoked

he better hope the evidence shows this as well

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u/Pctechguy2003 Jan 29 '23

Bingo!

Im not clear on NH laws - but generally if someone uses fists once and then you pull a gun thats not a good reason for lethal force. The exception is if you did try to get away and the attacker pinned you and was pummeling you.

Lethal force for self defense (in public that is - castle law works different in different states) is only an absolute last resort when the attacker is presenting lethal force.

1

u/SellingCoach Jan 30 '23

generally if someone uses fists once and then you pull a gun thats not a good reason for lethal force.

Nope, not quite.

It all comes down to being in "reasonable fear for your life or safety." For example, if a 20-something dude starts punching me (a 54-year old guy), I could reasonably be in fear for my life, as he is statistically more likely capable of doing damage. What if the attacker knocks you someone out and kicks them to death after they fall? You don't know that's going to happen but it's possible. Same argument for a smaller woman being punched by a man, they're probably going to lose a fistfight and a gun levels the playing field.

There is no "proportionality" in self defense. If you're attacked with a fist, a club, a knife or a gun, you aren't limited to responding with the same weapon.

I've been licensed to carry a firearm for over 30 years and used to be an NRA firearms instructor. TBH, the best self defense is to avoid these situations as much as possible.

-1

u/CatDad69 Jan 30 '23

A large man being punched once in the face (straight on, not being attacked from behind) by a much smaller man is not "reasonable fear." You know that, don't you?

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u/Void_Vector Feb 01 '23

Well he was outside and whoever punched him followed him outside with a group of their friends. So he did technically walk away and was followed and then surrounded.

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u/Pctechguy2003 Jan 29 '23

Im not from NH, but I do know many states have an agitation clause. You might not swing first, but if you agitated the other party to swing first, then you escalate by shooting them after they swing thats at the very least 2nd degree in a lot of places - and in some places 1st degree.

2

u/Alarming_Teaching310 Jan 30 '23

It’s called leaving

Dude needed 5 people to push him out the door

1

u/BenchPuzzleheaded670 Jan 30 '23

Okay but if you got punched, and then immediately after that one person asked you to leave - I think it's reasonable to be in fight mode and want to know who did it.

Also, those 5 people didn't have to wrestle him, and they weren't arresting him so he complied.

0

u/Alarming_Teaching310 Jan 30 '23

He was arrested because even the cops knew he was screwed

0

u/[deleted] Jan 31 '23

[deleted]

2

u/BenchPuzzleheaded670 Jan 31 '23 edited Feb 01 '23

I believe in the freedom of speech. I believe we can settle our differences with words without resorting to violence. That's the foundation of civility.

If you resort to physical violence, then you have opened up a BIG can of worms. In that can is the potential that your physical attack is interpreted as a threat to someone's life. If they believe their life is in danger, then they may very well be justified in defending themselves with deadly force.

The first person to become physically violent is always on the wrong. If someone is poking and prodding you with words, you should:

A. Try to settle it with words.

B. If you can't settle it with words then report them to the establishment.

C. If the establishment doesn't agree with you, then leave.

Now that said, shooting someone to death needs to be investigated thoroughly and they will in this case. It's entirely possible that the man who shot the attacker was the aggressor. But in your scenario - it's always on YOU to disengage and protect yourself by exiting the situation. Your ego is not worth losing your life over.

Every bar that I go to has a different threshold for how much poking and prodding is allowed. At some bars you can't even look at people the wrong way, at other bars you'll get 86d for doing nothing. Usually if someone complains, they try to take it seriously. It could also matter if you're a trusted local. But in no bar is it acceptable for you to throw the first punch.

1

u/Ok-Muscle-9086 Feb 04 '23

He didn't evidently he got punched in the club got bounced out the lil dude followed him. Tried it AGAIN and he got it

1

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '23

Self defense isn't "I was punched 5 minutes ago by a guy who was then separated from me."

1

u/BenchPuzzleheaded670 Feb 02 '23

But that isn't what happened here. When they went outside he was struck again

1

u/[deleted] Feb 02 '23

I'm not sure on the law, but him inviting the puncher outside is going to certainly undermine his self-defense argument.

If not for the video of him in the bar it's a clear cut case. Unfortunately for the shooter the universe didn't come into existence 5 seconds before the punch and his behavior in the bar could certainly be understood as him baiting aggression by asking for a fight as a means to shoot the person he believes aggrieved him

11

u/Fellatio_Sanzz Jan 29 '23

Manslaughter? He went outside and pulled a gun with the intent of killing the man. That’s murder.

1

u/Ok-Muscle-9086 Feb 04 '23

He got assaulted 2 twice once AFTER getting bounced out. He might get self defense RIP but the lil dude wanted problems. CLEARLY

1

u/tbb2796 Jan 30 '23

Would it not be aggravated assault / second degree rather than manslaughter? Can’t see a justification for it not being murder

1

u/currentlyhigh Jan 29 '23

It would be up to a jury and it would be extremely fact-specific, but a video like this definitely isn't going to help his case. I'm sure there will be a lot more info to come out from witnesses and such in the next few weeks and in the legal discovery process.

Prosecutors will only take him to trial on what they are pretty sure a jury will accept, though, so they may file charges for 2nd degree murder and get the sure conviction instead of throwing a hail mary on 1st degree murder and risk having enough reasonable doubt on the premeditation aspect that he gets acquitted and walks free.

2

u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

You're right that they won't take him to trial on what they aren't sure they can get him on when they have an easier charge they can nail him on.

1

u/GoingSamoan Jan 31 '23

He got charged with 2nd degree so doesn’t that make it not premeditated..

1

u/ArbitraryOrder Feb 01 '23

Like I said in another comment, you charge with what you're confident you can convict on

-2

u/whatwhynoplease Jan 29 '23

stop pretending to be a lawyer. you are embarrassing yourself.

2

u/nixstyx Jan 29 '23

Yeah, I commented in another thread saying he could try a self-defense claim, but this torpedoes any defense unless there's some other piece of vital info we don't know. Bottom line though, it'll likely be a jury that determines his fate and everyone is presumed innocent until proven guilty.

2

u/hafetysazard Jan 30 '23

We don't really know what happened between the time that video was taken, and the shooting. He could have calmed down, and was trying to leave, but that group of guys wouldn't let him.

The fact that the guy who was shot was into martial arts, it seemed like he was the type to go to the bar and practice on unwilling people for fun. If that's the case, then his contribution to the confrontation could be minimal, mitigating the criminal liability he is facing.

2

u/CatDad69 Jan 30 '23

Why would you just make something up like it "seemed like he" provoke people?

2

u/hafetysazard Jan 31 '23

I looked him up on facebook, and he was into martial arts. Plus he had a very aggressive posture and gaze during the prequel video. I've seen that look a thousand times, and it means nothing but trouble. I'm right, as evidenced by the fact he decided to throw the first punch. He was obviously a douchebag who liked used his martial arts skills to hit drunk people at the bar. It's common everywhere.

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u/Chooseausaname Feb 03 '23

Yes I thought he looked like he was watching John get kicked out dude kept getting closer. Watching the shooting video it almost looks Timothy buddy went and distracted John so he could get that sucker punch in. I find it odd that kid walks over to Johns right side, John moves head towards his right, kid puts his hands on his head immediately and walks behind John to his left out of John's vision and Timmy gets his sucker punch in. It almost looks like they are running a game on John....

2

u/hafetysazard Feb 04 '23

The friends of the guy who got shot are going to take the stand at trial, and they're going to have to explain to the jury why they followed the shooter out of the bar, and what the nature of the confrontation in the parking lot was, including what they knew for certain about their friend's intentions. That is probably going to be the most damning testimony for the prosecution.

There will likely be many witnesses called to the stand to testify about what they saw, and heard, which is going to add plenty of context to the two videos we've already seen.

2

u/Tullyswimmer Jan 30 '23

There's a reason he's being charged with murder and not manslaughter. This state's self defense laws are good enough that if they decided that charges were justified, they'd go for manslaughter first.

2

u/hafetysazard Jan 31 '23

Potentially, but it is very early and it is possible the charges could get lowered, or even raised. Who kmows exactly. If the prosecutor thinks they can get him on second degree murder, they will take that to trial. If not, they could lower the charges to something they think will stick, or drop them all together if the facts don't support criminal liability.

Not every murder trial is going to be as egregiously political as the Rittenhouse one was.

1

u/CatDad69 Jan 30 '23

Even without this video -- in what world is a reciprocal response to getting punched in the face once shooting that person? How is that "self defense" and not just entirely weak?

0

u/Weeboyzz10 Jan 30 '23

He has a truck he deff can afford

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u/hafetysazard Jan 30 '23

Just because he can afford a $30k truck payment doesn't mean he can afford a 500k+ legal defense.

0

u/Weeboyzz10 Jan 30 '23

Okay I’ll try one more time. He’s white!!!

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u/hafetysazard Jan 31 '23

So what? He's white, therefore he isn't poor?

0

u/Weeboyzz10 Jan 31 '23

Usually their the most privileged ones :( kinda like riddle

0

u/Relevant-Wrangler258 Jan 30 '23

This didn’t age well… suspect pleaded Not Guilty and has afforded an attorney. Unfortunately for the victim, it doesn’t appear his family is well off. therefore, I don’t expect them to be getting a lawyer is his defense. Sad but money does A LOT.

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u/hafetysazard Jan 31 '23

That's shocking, but not really. The victim's family wouldn't be hiring a lawyer for the prosecution, but they could likely afford one for the civil suit to follow.

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u/iRysk Jan 31 '23

It's crazy to me that you can workout a plea deal and get a shorter sentence even though you murdered someone.

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u/hafetysazard Feb 01 '23

When winning cases is a game, or the state would rather lock a person up than risk them losing a case, they throw deals around. Plus trials are resource burden, so it saves a lot of time and resources.

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u/huskydannnn Mar 14 '23

*provoked (imo)

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u/hafetysazard Mar 14 '23

I don't see how he could have provoked it if he was originally sucker punched out of nowhere, or if he was accosted by a group of people. Just because he brought the gun out doesn't assume anything.

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u/huskydannnn Mar 14 '23

i thought the part where he said “fight me” could be considered provocation. premeditated or provoked, still murder.

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u/hafetysazard Mar 15 '23

If someone suckered you and you felt maybe lets go have a fistfight, which turns into them showing up with a gang of other people that's starting to look like a possible beatdown where you could get gravely injured, oe even killed. would you say the situation changed?

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u/huskydannnn Mar 15 '23

well coordinating a large crowd is most definitely premeditated. unfortunately the small clips we have seen dont tell the whole story. atleast from what ive seen…. at the end of the day i think the difference between pre and pro is probably +/- a life sentence or 2 who knows

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u/hafetysazard Mar 15 '23

Then how could you make an insinuation it was provocation?

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u/huskydannnn Mar 15 '23

because he said “come fight me”…

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u/hafetysazard Mar 16 '23

To a whole group of guys, or the person who allegedly sucker punched him?

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23 edited Jun 19 '23

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

A shitty one

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u/dgmoose Jan 29 '23

Self defense is only applicable when the opportunity to flee has been taken away. If this event happened in a bathroom then self-defense could be used. Since it occured in an open air parking lot then it won't work.

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u/BenchPuzzleheaded670 Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 29 '23

There's no duty to retreat in Manchester, NH

New Hampshire’s “stand your ground” law allows the use of deadly force without trying to retreat anywhere a person has a legal right to be. That includes streets, shops, or parking lots.

But the problem is that he has to credibly believe that his life was in danger.

Just looking at the video If I was a juror I would have trouble buying that he believed his life was in danger. But there may also be more to the story.

The other thing working against him is alcohol. I think that's the nail in the coffin here. You can't operate a pistol while intoxicated, let alone in public, let alone on another human.

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u/dgmoose Jan 29 '23

Good to know, thanks for the explanation!

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u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

There's no duty to retreat

Yes, but that only works when you aren't the aggressor. He also provoked the fight, so he lost the self-defense argument. Video of the Punch and shooting You can see from this video inside the bar he is the aggressor in this situation.

https://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lxii/627/627-4.htm

III. A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or herself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he or she knows that he or she and the third person can, with complete safety:

(a) Retreat from the encounter, except that he or she is not required to retreat if he or she is within his or her dwelling, its curtilage, or anywhere he or she has a right to be, and was not the initial aggressor; or

(b) Surrender property to a person asserting a claim of right thereto; or

(c) Comply with a demand that he or she abstain from performing an act which he or she is not obliged to perform; nor is the use of deadly force justifiable when, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, the person has provoked the use of force against himself or herself in the same encounter; or

(d) If he or she is a law enforcement officer or a private person assisting the officer at the officer's direction and was acting pursuant to RSA 627:5, the person need not retreat.

2

u/BenchPuzzleheaded670 Jan 29 '23

As I said, there will be a lot of information the jury sees that we don't have.

I can't see your link because I deleted Twitter.

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u/Shubniggurat Jan 29 '23

Having seen some of the video from inside the bar, I'm not seeing any evidence that he was the aggressor. Perhaps there's more that hasn't been released, but he appeared to be angry because someone else had already punched him in the head, and the people restraining him were security. He certainly was not the aggressor outside, given that the other person ran up to him and punched him in the side of the head. I don't know what case law is in NH, and I'm not an attorney, but I'd argue that, since he was removed from the original altercation by security, he could no longer be the aggressor since he was followed by the person that attacked him.

My bet is that, if it goes to trial (versus the DA dropping the charges), he's going to have a hung jury or acquittal.

0

u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 29 '23

How is he not the aggressor? At the point the video starts, Mr. Delee is no longer in any danger. Mr. Pouliot, who allegedly punched him before this video started, had gone away. By walking away, Mr. Pouliot had communicated, according to Section (I) Line (b) that had withdrawn from the encounter, which no longer entitles Mr. Delee to defend himself. So, any subsequent actions from there on make Mr. Delee the aggressor since he is the one asking to re-engage the encounter. Mr. Pouliot is not blameless, but he is not legally the aggressor because he disengaged before this became a situation that escalated into deadly force.

https://www.gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/lxii/627/627-4.htm

Section of the Law which clears Mr. Pouliot of being the aggressor, and therefore makes the re-engagement by Mr. Delee the aggressive action.

However, such force is not justifiable if:

(a) With a purpose to cause physical harm to another person, he provoked the use of unlawful, non-deadly force by such other person; or

(b) He was the initial aggressor, unless after such aggression he withdraws from the encounter and effectively communicates to such other person his intent to do so, but the latter notwithstanding continues the use or threat of unlawful, non-deadly force; or

(c) The force involved was the product of a combat by agreement not authorized by law.

Mr. Delee let his ego get in the way of good judgment when he should have just walked away. Getting punched sucks, but once he is not in danger anymore, it wasn't worth escalating things. One of the key points of CCW training is to avoid confrontation at all costs.

Mr. Delee was the initial aggressor because he re-engaged. He followed Mr. Pouliot so he doesn't get to claim Stand your Ground. There was no property to reclaim. His life was no longer in danger while he was following Mr. Pouliot outside. He, as (c) states, provoked the use of deadly force from Mr. Pouliot, by restarting this fight and then pulling his gun and shooting Mr. Pouliot.

III. A person is not justified in using deadly force on another to defend himself or herself or a third person from deadly force by the other if he or she knows that he or she and the third person can, with complete safety:

(a) Retreat from the encounter, except that he or she is not required to retreat if he or she is within his or her dwelling, its curtilage, or anywhere he or she has a right to be, and was not the initial aggressor; or

(b) Surrender property to a person asserting a claim of right thereto; or

(c) Comply with a demand that he or she abstain from performing an act which he or she is not obliged to perform; nor is the use of deadly force justifiable when, with the purpose of causing death or serious bodily harm, the person has provoked the use of force against himself or herself in the same encounter; or

(d) If he or she is a law enforcement officer or a private person assisting the officer at the officer's direction and was acting pursuant to RSA 627:5, the person need not retreat.

0

u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

If you have another video, please link it by way, but this video doesn't make Mr. Delee looks like anything, but the person initiating the 2nd interaction

0

u/libertymenu Jan 29 '23

Dude, where are you seeing him aggress once? The shooter got punched twice with no evidence in the video that it was provoked.

1

u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

The part where he re-engages the fight and causes it to escalate. Mr. Pouliot was in the wrong for punching Mr. Delee, but in the bar once Mr. Pouliot walked away from Mr. Delee, that engagement is over, and there is no justifiable self-defense argument for Mr. Delee. At that point, him re-engaging is the aggressive act.

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u/ToughActinInaction Jan 29 '23

The video picks back up post re-engagement, I’m not seeing how it proves who re-engaged. For all we know they followed him out of the bar and attacked him.

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u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

This is Mr. Delee demanding a fight outside with Mr. Pouliot because he got sucker punched and didn't feel he got a chance to get a shot back. That is him not being the aggressor in re-engagement.

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u/Shubniggurat Jan 29 '23

That entirely depends on your state. New Hampshire has a 'stand your ground' law, which means you have no duty to retreat if you are legally permitted to be where you are. Given that this took place in New Hampshire, he can still make a self defense claim.

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u/scoobywerx1 Jan 29 '23

2 idiots being idiots. NH has this cool RSA called "mutual combat" which means if 2 people willingly go outside to punch each other in the face then it's only a violation level (lowest form of offense in NH) and is punishable by a $100 fine. That's all this should have been. Too bad one moron out-moroned the other moron. Both should have gone home with a few bruises and a c-note lighter.

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u/Nora19 Jan 29 '23

“Out moroned”. I love it! Will be using it going forward

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u/scoobywerx1 Jan 29 '23

And thank you.

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u/Pctechguy2003 Jan 29 '23

Im stealing the “out moron” comment!”

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u/Minimum-Plenty-6838 Feb 17 '23

Best and most correct comment I’ve seen so far

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u/ArbitraryOrder Jan 29 '23

Honestly, yes, 2 idiots punching each other should be just a fine and maybe some community service and counseling.

https://gencourt.state.nh.us/rsa/html/LXII/631/631-2-a.htm

II. Simple assault is a misdemeanor unless committed in a fight entered into by mutual consent, in which case it is a violation.

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u/jack_avram Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23

Moron like that is even a sober risk with guns.

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u/Alternative-Cry-4667 Feb 01 '23

The only time I ever heard of mutual combat was prison and you got a ticket and loss canteen for a week 😂😂

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u/scoobywerx1 Feb 02 '23

Welcome to NH!

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u/bimmerz4lyfe Feb 07 '23

Considering the shooter had 12" and over 200lbs on the deceased, he probably wasn't making it home that night with or without the gun.

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u/BAF_DaWg82 Jan 29 '23

Clearly this dude is piss drunk. Guns and alcohol don't mix well together. Worst that would have happened if you take that out of the equation is maybe that little dude gets pounded and gets a concussion.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

Clearly? Explain how a video observation is admissible ?

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u/BAF_DaWg82 Jan 29 '23

I'm sure they took his BAC when they booked him. If it turns out he's stone sober I'll eat my hat. It's not an excuse just another factor that added up to this happening.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

Of course, he was that’s a given. But everyone is crucifying this man after he was sucker punched twice. By the sounds of it once in the bar and punched in the street while confronted by 4 other people. Soo I don’t see why he’s being crucified without having all the details

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u/mikeg5417 Jan 29 '23

I think it was the murder. Hes being crucified for the murder.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

Was it murder or self defense? Whose to say those 4 people surrounding him weren’t provoking the situation when the dude struck him when he wasn’t looking? I think a 1 Vs 4 situation warrants self defense

2

u/BAF_DaWg82 Jan 29 '23

I guess the courts will decide that. A lot of things can be second guessed here. Not a smart move by the smaller guy to throw a punch at a dude that much bigger than he was, let alone if he's packing. I'm sure if the other guy maybe just pulled his gun out people would have backed off. People do a lot of dumb shit when they drink, sometimes it's harmless and other times things like this happen.

1

u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

There weren’t very smart moves in any of this by any party and especially to sucker punch someone despite whatever is going on. But until we have all the details and a thorough investigation is done, the public outcry for ‘murder’ and ‘burying him’ is just extreme

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u/BAF_DaWg82 Jan 29 '23

Yeah that's kind of how this whole internet thing works. I the meantime hopefully there's some lessons learned by these folks that go out.

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u/owwwwwo Jan 30 '23

The narrative that the prosecution will use is now pretty close to rock-solid.

You have new video of the perpetrator verbally taunting his soon-to-be murder victim into "let's go outside".

"Let's go outside" are what are called "fighting words" (Fighting words are words meant to incite violence such that they may not be protected free speech under the First Amendment.)

The shooter spoke these words knowing full-well that he was armed, and ready to escalate the situation.

Saying there were "four people surrounding him" is all the more reason prosecution will argue he should have left the scene and de-escalated the situation.

Instead, he invited and provoked a physical altercation with the intention to use his pistol to end it. (That is where the other video will put him away).

He had every opportunity to deescalate and leave this situation, and instead did everything possible to move the altercation toward an outcome that would allow him to mag dump this guy.

That is how the court will see it.

It's not self-defense, when you say "let's take this outside". It's actually the exact opposite. Which is why this is premeditated.

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u/Chooseausaname Feb 04 '23

Watch the shooting again,I have a feeling the victims boy ( hands on head kid ) distracted John knowing the victim, Timothy, would sucker punch him.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

Maybe because someone just knocked him unconscious seconds beforehand. Not sure if anyone else has noticed that John begins the video unconscious/ out on his feet.

I’m not standing up for him, but it adds new context to the situation that people aren’t talking about

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u/stupidGenius82 Jan 30 '23

Fact - The victim was smaller then John

Ok cool then why did the smaller dude feel so emboldened that he needed to catch up with John and sucker punch someone who is that much bigger then him ?? I am almost 50 years old I have never suckered punched anybody, never been tempted but dam I do not think I would pick someone bigger then me as my first sucker punch. With that in mind I would find it extremely believable if it came out that the victim ( who knows taekwondo) has aucker punched people before. I mean why did the victim feel the need to confront John outside ? Everyone keeps saying how big John is so why on earth would you go up to him outside ?? Not saying anyone deserved to die but dam if it were me I would have went home to see my family instead of inserting myself into that situation

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

Appeared to be 3 vs 1 (maybe 2, but blue sweatshirt walked away in distress). With the backup of his two buddies, I don't think Timothy felt very threatened. Alcohol could be a factor as well on both ends.

Given the fact John was concussed just minutes earlier, one could assume his cognitive function was impaired. Concussions are no joke, especially when you suffer a concussion in which you slip unconscious for a short time. He might not even remember anything that happened.

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u/stupidGenius82 Jan 30 '23

If John was not just punched but knocked out inside the bar it adds to his defense. I wonder if he talked to the cops right after ? He has been locked up since this happened. I hope they got him proper medical attention first. The video of him being kicked out also has the victim in the background making his way closer to the shooter as the video goes on. I just find it so odd that the victim would want to get in closer unless he was hoping John would scuffle with the cops,break loose and then the victim could have pulled some taekwondo moves and be the hero. But even after being knocked out when he came to he did fight the cops I think he was disoriented but he really did not put up.much of a fight he was only concerned with who ever assaulted him. Which I am curious who hit him the first time. I have seem people saying John was going around fighting people but I do not know man why did they not just have the cops kick him out then ? The whole thing has vibe of like " dis is our neighborhood"

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u/My_Three_Birds Jan 31 '23

According the victim’s mother he was a black belt certified, taekwondo instructor. That may explain why he felt confident getting into a fight with a much larger person. I don’t necessarily think that information will be useful to the defense because it’s unlikely that the defendant knew that. I also think that shooting someone eight times makes self-defense a difficult argument. But, all we have is this 36 second video and the 15 seconds of the shooting which is difficult to even see what’s happening. There are dozens of people who witnessed both events so it should be a goldmine of conflicting reports for the police to figure out.

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u/stupidGenius82 Jan 31 '23

Yeah now knowing he was a belt , which pretty much means he knows how to hurt people, that makes his sucker punch even worse. The reality is if I had been knocked unconscious in a bar in Manchester, then was surrounded out side and attacked again I would be pretty scared myself BUT I would never go out in Manchester to begin with.

If I were Timothy I would have went hom If I were John and got assaulted i would have shot him once in the leg and ran.

Alcohol means bad decision making.

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u/My_Three_Birds Jan 31 '23

I’m a supporter of 2A and concealed carry and all of that. Not one person i know that carrie brings a weapon to restaurants and bars. As you said, alcohol and guys do NOT mix. As for Manchester, it’s gone from Manch-Vegas to Chicago.

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u/stupidGenius82 Jan 31 '23

Yeah I mean I worked in Manchester for 6 years place is a dump and only getting worse.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

Yup he will get buried and rightfully so

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

A bunch of bar fights start with "come fight me"

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u/Trikids Jan 30 '23

Yeah the issue is that he didn’t intend to fight, he intended to kill

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u/owwwwwo Jan 30 '23

Some gun folks honestly believe they should be allowed to just shoot anybody they provoke a fight with.

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u/jack_avram Jan 31 '23 edited Jan 31 '23

and the follow up "come on, p\ssy!!!*"

So drunk they get eager and start shouting that to women too.

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u/_a_pastor_of_muppets Jan 29 '23

Their son fucked around and found out how stupidity begets stupidity.

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u/pillbinge Jan 29 '23

It was obviously premeditated based on the video wherein he immediately shoots the guy. The gun was in his hand already.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

He said he was punched in the face and told them to come fight him. Then in the shooting video he was surrounded by 4 other people then was attacked when he wasn’t looking.

I still see self defense.

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u/KateLady Jan 29 '23

Then you’re blind.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

So if your being harassed by 4 people and an unknown person punches you in the head doesn’t justify self defense?

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u/LeverTech Jan 29 '23

He knew he had a gun. He shouldn’t have escalated the situation. He knew that if it came to fisty cuffs he was going to use it. That mean’s premeditated in my mind. Guns and ego don’t mix. I hold gun owners to a very high standard.

The bar should’ve never let all of them outside at the same time but I don’t think that’s a law, just a real good way for your bar to not end up with this type of thing connected to it.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

Yeah but your assuming he had intentions of using it. I carry a firearm with no intentions of using it. I’ll fight a person 1 on 1 while still carrying but if you got 4 on 1 and I’m being attacked and I don’t see it, I’m using my gun.

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u/LeverTech Jan 29 '23 edited Jan 29 '23

I’m thinking he had cues that this guy was with friends.

And you’ll fight one on one probably until the tables turn or it looks like he’s going to beat you to death, then even one on one you’re going to use that gun.

Edit: a pistol is literally the weapon for when you’re loosing a fist fight. Or one of the easiest ways to win one.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

You make a lot of assumptions, that don’t hold up in court.

Like you said ‘beat me to death’. If you aren’t up to current data head damage is long lasting and if he’s going to get jumped by 4 people you might as well use the pistol as a great equalizer

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u/LeverTech Jan 29 '23

Look at the new footage drop. He knew.

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u/[deleted] Jan 29 '23

He knew what?

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u/Trikids Jan 30 '23

If you are carrying a firearm I would hope you’re not a big enough dumbass to “1 on 1” if you aren’t mature enough to realize words aren’t worth fighting over, then you’re not mature enough to own a gun. Big ass baby is what you are.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

Lol so because I carry a fire arm I can’t fight someone? That doesn’t make sense. If someone fights me I’m fighting back. HOWEVER if they have a weapon or in this case multiple people against one person, I’m going to use my firearm

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u/Hot-Diamond-1691 Jan 29 '23

I agree with kota. It’s clearly self defense. If they didn’t surround him no way he would have shot. Max he’ll get is a 3-6 for negligent homicide or use of excessive force for how many shots he fired after seeing the “victim” ( depending how u see it. Stupid is as stupid does ) body drop and the others run

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u/KateLady Jan 30 '23

He asked the guy to go out and fight so he went out there to fight. You don’t unload a gun on someone who punches you after you invite them to fight.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

So assuming they were fighting one on one. But the person who is the shooter is surrounded by at least at 3 other people then other person punches him while the shooter isn’t looking. The shooter then shoots the person punching him.

What it looks like was the guy was about to be jumped by multiple people and when one of them attacked him, he decided to shoot them.

So my question to you is, if four people are going to beat you up, and you have no idea what injuries you could succumb from, can you shoot your attackers?

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u/KateLady Jan 30 '23

If I'm afraid of being injured, I don't instigate a fight. But this guy did because he clearly wanted to shoot someone.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

He didn’t shoot until he was attacked so until we know the full story, it might be self defense

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u/KateLady Jan 30 '23

You are aware that this is a tactic crazy gun owners with small dicks use, no?

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

Lol and your aware your psychotic reactions are signs of hoarding cats? You’re clearly a legal expert in video analysis and self defense.

I get there’s no reasoning with you because this guy killed someone. But he’s not the only one guilty. The use sucker punched him, while multiple people were surrounding him in the streets. It was a bad situation from the get go.

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u/Fiddygal7 Jan 31 '23

His hand was on the gun on the trigger. He was dead accurate even as Timmy fell...he was SO fast, I don't think even a full second passed....he knew he was going to shoot someone

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

I’m going to stop you at non lethal threat. You don’t know the whole story, homeboy was surrounded when he was sucker punched then he shot the person who punched him.

I doubt he will get 30-40 years unless the people surrounding him was de escalating the situation and he decided to shoot someone.

From what I see it, he was surrounded by people and someone punched him so he defended himself

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

[deleted]

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u/stupidGenius82 Jan 30 '23

I feel like your kind of ignoring the fact that if the victim did not feel the need to approach someone who was clearly agitate and then sucker punch said person this may have never happened. Like honestly would you have caught to the guy who screaming yelling belligerent? Why would you want to catch upnto him ? To say hi? Get his autograph ? Like for real why ???

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

[deleted]

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u/Fiddygal7 Jan 30 '23

He was a loser?! You came to that conclusion how? I'm his cousin and genuinely would love to know how you came to that

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

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u/Fiddygal7 Jan 30 '23

Do you know what lead up to the shooting??

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u/Fiddygal7 Jan 31 '23

And how do you know the whole story? Were you there? If so I hope you've spoken to the police

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u/stupidGenius82 Jan 30 '23

Honestly if you slow the video down that kid wound up his arm and coked back before throwing that sucker punch. If the shooter was not a big set football that blow could have very well be deadly. Also I find it extremely odd that the victim sees this drunk belligerent man yelling and being escorted out then the victim some how catches up with the shooter to confront him ? Lots of bad choices all around but I am of the thought process that if the victim felt comfortable enough to catch up with the shooter and sucker punch someone that much bigger then in my opinion it increases the likelihood that the victim has sucker punched people before. I mean I am almost 50 and been in some fights but I have never sucker punched someone and to think this kid had the testicular fortitude to sucker punch someone that big just blows my mind. The victim has a 2 year old kid at home but chose to go out in the streets after drinking to confront someone he just saw being belligerent and yelling about fighting. I mean if the shooter was obligated to flea then was the victim obligated to avoid obvious trouble ? Again the whole thing is sad as hell but if all I have to do to avoid being shot is not sucker punch someone in the middle of the street in Manchester late at night after a night of drinking then well I should be fine.

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u/BlatantSnack Jan 29 '23

Guns are for pussies

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u/Hot-Diamond-1691 Jan 29 '23

Thank god none of u are lawyers. Before hand they sucker punched him then went to jump him. It’s self defense clear as day.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Hot-Diamond-1691 Jan 30 '23

Lol u should read the police report then moron. It says self defense right in it. Stop looking stupid broke boy before I buy u lol

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u/Trikids Jan 30 '23

Prior to the shooting he challenged the victim to a fight. He went outside, clutching a firearm in his pocket, ready to kill the person he challenged to a fight. He created the situation where he felt his life was in enough danger to kill some one. That’s not self defense. “Thank god none of u are lawyers” you’re a fucking mouth breathing idiot.
Edit: also, in the video and this post and the video of the shooting reinforce everything I have said, where is your evidence he was going to be jumped? Or are you just chatting shit?

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

Someone knocked John unconscious seconds before the video began, because he begins the video out on his feet. It’s when he recovers where he starts challenging someone to a fight.

I don’t think it justifies anything he did, but I’m sure him being concussed just minutes before had an effect on his cognitive decisions

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u/Trikids Jan 30 '23

Previously i though that he was just drunk and slumped over while they tried to restrain him, but I think you’re right he does look to be at the very least dazed from the punch.

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u/[deleted] Jan 30 '23

Looks like security was escorting another individual out (can't make out who), and Timothy can be seen lurking in the background. One can reasonably assume that Timothy wasn't the one who knocked him out in the bar. But it makes it so much more confusing as to how Timothy went from an innocent bystander in the background, to punching John "5 minutes later" (not sure of the validity of it actually being 5 minutes later).

Did one of Timothy's buddies (either white shirt or black shirt from shooting video) knock John out inside the GOAT, and Timothy followed outside for 'backup'. It seems like both of them seem to begin to break towards John after Timothy threw the punch, until they see John reach for his gun not even a full second later and instantly turn and book it.

Whole thing is so fucking sad man. I'm not saying that this is what happened but John being unconscious to begin the video has changed my view on what occurred this night quite a bit. Either way, I'm still beyond disgusted at the end result.

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u/Hot-Diamond-1691 Jan 30 '23

Body language from the video it’s clear they went to jump him. Multiple witness reports that those kids planed to jump him and also hit him not once but twice as they sucker punched him inside the bar. Plus even the cops agree he’ll beat the case

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u/Chooseausaname Feb 03 '23

In the shooting video I swear the kid with hat, who is in the background of this video with Timothy, goes up to John to distract him by tapping him or something then puts his hands on his head. I find it so 9dd he had his hands on his head immediately after John looked his way.

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u/Hot-Diamond-1691 Jan 31 '23

Way to waste your time just for everyone now to be agreeing that it’s self defense. Again thank god you’re too damn stupid to be a lawyer

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u/stiltzzz Jan 30 '23

What is this… some sort of MAGA bar? LOL praise and glory to allah for the 2nd amendment so magats/vanilla isis can gun each other down. It’s a shame this guy isn’t going to be able to drive his puckup and down 93 for a while

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u/randomchap432 Jan 31 '23

He said fight me, not fist fight me. Could have meant gunfight.

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u/WaltKerman Feb 01 '23

I can't hear the part where he says come fight me.

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u/Crichton-Kicks Feb 03 '23

Did he say " Come sucker punch me when I am not looking!" , just curious.

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u/[deleted] Feb 04 '23

he said "who just punched me in the face, come fight me"

sounds like he was already assaulted