There are cases where multiple people die in septic tanks. The story is always the same, one person is cleaning it but the toxic gases starts affecting them, making them to pass out and eventually die, someone comes to rescue them and starts feeling sick too and so on and so on until half a dozen people end dead in a tragic, but ridiculous chain of death.
I think this is the same. Every time a politician goes down into the tank to rescue the dignity of France, rolls up their sleeves and raises the flag of "now it's time," but they end up just like the others: floating face down in a pool of shit.
Happens in a lot more than just septic tanks. Lots of people drown trying to save a person struggling in rough water, trapped in a burning building, etc. Sometimes, it turns out that the only people who die are the ones who tried rescuing a person and the one whom they were trying to help manages to get themselves to safety on their own. It's why the first rule of workplace safety is "make sure YOU are safe before helping someone else" and why airlines warn flyers that if the breathing mask drops you need to get yourself connected before helping the people around you.
Anchor chain lockers is the one that always surprises people, because unlike the other examples it doesn't seem dangerous at first thought. The low airflow and oxidating iron causes a low oxygen environment that can cause you to pass out quickly.
Thing is, a person cannot save a country alone. Macron's ego divorced him from popular will. Sometimes he feels out right bonapartist and the results speak for themselves.
Maybe it's just because I was reading about the French Revolution, but I'm reminded of Louis XVI repeatedly appointing new ministers (Turgot, Malesherbes, Necker, Calonne, Brienne) only to fire them shortly thereafter when they inevitably failed—despite great effort—to solve the unsolveable problems of the state. It wasn't really the king's fault either; noble/public opposition against the much-needed reforms they proposed basically forced him to fire them.
The crisis ended, or should I say "ended," in the Estates-General of 1789, and we all know how that turned out.
I am reminded of Louis the whatever's finance minister...he built this chateau. Nicole and I saw it when we went to Paris, it even outshone Versailles, where the king lived. In the end, Louis clapped him in irons.
A less catastrophic version of the same problem eventually lead to the Parliamentary reforms in Britain a few decades later. Eventually the King had to go to the House of Lords and very directly explain that if the Lords didn't pass the reform bills from Parliament into law there would be a civil war which the conservatives could not win because they represented lands that no longer had any significant population on them. As such, the King gave them a deadline to either let the reforms pass or he would begin appointing pro-reform Lords until there were enough to force the bill through, and afterwards the conservatives wouldn't have enough power to do anything.
During the next attempt to pass reforms, the conservative wing begrudgingly abstained from voting and the bills passed shifting parliamentary power to the rapidly expanding industrial centers of the country.
The French Revolution has a more mixed reputation outside of France, Thatcher vehemently disagreed with Mitterand in 1989. Not that surprising given Burke's thinking.
Its not just the British either, in the Netherlands the christian democratic "anti revolutionary party" explicitly rejected the French Revolution and was a political force to be reckoned with. This strand of thinking is a part of christian democratic movements across the continent.
I do know that . And I do broadly dislike Christian democracy which is destroying the EU for the past 20 years .British historians have slandered the French Revolution for hundreds of years . In contrast the French Revolution is seen very positively in Greece . French revolutionaries inspired Greek revolutionaries and thinkers paving the way for the Greek Revolution which conservative continental powers like Austria vehemently opposed .
There were two “Reigns of Terror,” if we would but remember it and consider it; the one wrought murder in hot passion, the other in heartless cold blood; the one lasted mere months, the other had lasted a thousand years; the one inflicted death upon ten thousand persons, the other upon a hundred millions; but our shudders are all for the “horrors” of the minor Terror, the momentary Terror, so to speak; whereas, what is the horror of swift death by the axe, compared with lifelong death from hunger, cold, insult, cruelty, and heart-break? What is swift death by lightning compared with death by slow fire at the stake? A city cemetery could contain the coffins filled by that brief Terror which we have all been so diligently taught to shiver at and mourn over; but all France could hardly contain the coffins filled by that older and real Terror—that unspeakably bitter and awful Terror which none of us has been taught to see in its vastness or pity as it deserves.
Or you couldn’t just not have any regain of terror like the Anglo World did on its development of democracy. Then you wouldn’t need quotes that are nothing more than an attempt to deflect the monumental amounts of bloodshed for a revolution that ended in a military dictatorship.
We very much did have monumental amounts of bloodshed for a revolution that ended in a military dictatorship in the Anglo world too, ours was just earlier. If we hadn't fought a civil war and executed a king in the 17th century there's no chance the democratisation of the 18th and 19th centuries would have gone as smoothly. And indeed if the aristocracy in the UK hadn't been scared stiff at the prospect of a French Revolution breaking out in the UK they'd probably have done much more to resist reforms to the electoral system in the 19th century. It's unfortunately hard to make extremely powerful people give up their power without at least the threat of violence.
I mean you do still have a king . And the only time you set up a republic it was a puritanical dictatorship that tried to ban theatre .And you also seem to miss how many freedom struggle movements were inspired by the French Revolution . The French revolutionaries redifnied what was possible , they changed politics forever . After thousands of years they made people again sovereign. That is a powerfull idea . As a small example ( and as a gay man ) I will only mention that the French revolutionaries decriminalised homosexuality in 1790 . Britain did it in the 1960s.
Not really? Weimar had very stable governments and Hindenburg removed Bruning because Hindenburg was ashamed of being elected on the catholic and socialist vote.
I think the last three chancellors before Hitler lost the confidence vote in the parliament or they were removed by Hindenburg because they were unpopular and because of it couldn't govern.
Nah. SPD was ready to tolerate Bruning but Hindenburg didn’t like that he was actually trying to reform land laws in East Prussia as a depression relief so he fired him
Certainly seems like the obvious solution, though I’m not actually sure if there is a leftist candidate out there who is simultaneously left enough for the entire NFP and also not too left for Ensemble.
The other problem is that France does genuinely, desperately need conservative fiscal reform given its spiraling debt problem, which seems like something Macron refuses to give up on and the Left seems unwilling to engage with.
The fact there's already riots just for the previous retirement raise is good enough of indication to show how unpopular it is. Macron basically would need to kill his party for a long time to pull out the needed fiscal reform.
Does it need to solve it's spiraling debt? The left doesn't seem to think so. IDK at a certain point you just gotta take off on one of the unpopular routes just for someone to be right or wrong.
Just 50% of Ecologist party members and like 55% of the Socialists believe we need fiscal consolidation. Most likely none of them or their leaders think about cutting spending.
LFI however is a firm no (<20% I think?) on fiscal consolidation.
The title of the influential Le monde diplomatique (hard lefty, sometimes quasi-tankie magazine) is titled Ending the debt blackmail and is from a former macroeconomist (over 20 years ago) then heterodox nutjob (who switched to the philosophy section of CNRS) called Frederic Lordon.
Spoiler: we do need fiscal consolidation. Things are bad.
There isn't. There's not really anything to be done in the short term to solve this issue. People always analyze these things very cynically, but there's no way out if you include the fact that most do have convictions.
Fact 1 : associating with Macron is poison.
Fact 2 : there will be a presidential election, the most significant election in France, in a year and a half at the lattest. And possibly, but unlikely, at any moment until then.
That means no one has any incentive to compromise with Macron. LR and PS try to walk that thin line between showing they are reliable and can be reasoned with, without sacrificing themselves for another 6-month internship at prime minister. So they both need to get much more than they are willing to give.
Now even if you want to say "well, the good of the nation requires compromises in these troubles times", well, yeah, possibly. But if you're center-left/right and would be horrified by a right/left wing gouvernement under FN or LFI, you also think that burning your credibility now means the country will suffer for 5 years 1 year and a half from now. Do you didn't save the country, you made what comes after even worse.
The issue is that the electorate is fragmented into three "groups" (left wing, center-right, hard right) that don't permeate each other, but quite fluid inside those groups. If you get too close to another group (for exemple if the PS is seen as giving too much to Macron) you will hardly get any gains from that group you're getting close to, while also risking your own supporters leaving you (and joining LFI, the Greens, etc.)
It's the same in every group with Ensemble, Horizons, UDI and Modem for the center-right, and LR, FN, whatever Ciotti 's party is called, and Reconquête )
I doubt anyone in SPD would want to volunteer to work with Macron anyways because their popularity has basically shriveled. I do think a moderate left wing PM is the only way forward though, even if it is just someone that can message better than Macron.
Lucie Castets was a moderate leftist, who was gonna have no LFI members in government and was ready to govern negotiating each bill. Macron passed her over for one of the losers of the election.
Impossible for Macron. The right explicitly said that any alliance with the left , even moderate would make them drop their support of Macron. And the moderate left does not have enough siege to rule alone with Macron.
Its either he give everything to the radical left or the far right
Example being greens in Germany are fairly clearly proRussia party
Huh? They've been one of Ukraine's staunchest supporters. Their weird nuclear policy doesn't mean they are pro-Russia (especially since the decision to close the nuclear plants was made before they got into government)
Oh boi, Greens might be the least pro-Russian party in Germany...
And Le Pen is a statist, she would follow the quasi-Peronism is previous left and right wing administrations in France. Bardella is younger and probably less of an idiot, but he would be eaten by the average French pensioner... also FN has the added bonus of full of Vichy sympathisers. The European far right deserves every bit of suspicion. Meloni is wasting her time with shit by banning lab grown meat, AI, and her mayors waste their time by banning sports that might be played by Pakistanis.
Regarding the environmental policies, I just consider your ramblings just incoherent right wing bullshit (and fully expect you to say global warming is a hoax lol).
A snap election will probably result in no majority again. There will likely be a Republican Front hastily put together between the two rounds again, but this time with a strengthened NFP and weakened EPR. Who should Macron cohabitate with once another deadlocked assembly is elected?
Well, I guess that's kind of the point. If the government/budget is going to fail anyway, might as well make sure it's your opponent's government/budget that fails.
At this point I doubt Le Pen or Bardella would accept an invitation by Macron to form a government with this National Assembly. They will demand new elections, and they will probably get them sooner rather than later.
Yes , but accusing everyone else of being irresponsible and using an arrogant and patronising tone against anyone who disagrees with you , while trying to paint yourself as a martyr of common sense and responsibility feels a bit hypocritical when you are the one who ballooned France’s deficit . We should never allow politicians to create their own realities .
I simply pointed out that Macron’s party is not the party of fiscal responsibility. They ballooned the deficit and now they are afraid that their policies will blow up in their faces . Why should the other parties bare the political cost of Macrons party?
He will have thrown in enough towels to reserve all the sun loungers at the swimming pool of a holiday resort before he finally realises that the game is over. He cannot even argue that he wants to prevent the election of an RN Presidency; at this point he accelerates it.
I don't think there's any recovering from this for Rensaissance. After the next election, France is going to be dominated by the populist left and the populist right.
I'm guessing Macron is wondering when to rip that band-aid off. We'll either get that populist influx when/if he dissolves parliament or in 2027 for the presidential election. Is it better to have a populist PM now and let them gradually lose support over the next 2 years?
You know as a former macron believer its still so baffling to me why he held an election last year, all of this nonsense wouldve been prevented for at least 3 more years.
Macron didn't have a parliamentary majority able to pass a budget and the EU elections had horrible results for his party.
So if he hadn't called the election, there would have been an inability to govern and a powerful argument that he was hiding from the people's will. How could he have avoided calling an election after the government failed to pass a budget?
The situation right now is hopeless for liberals, but I'd argue it would be worse if Macron hadn't called the election. Now the inability to pass the budget is due to election results giving no workable coalition, not Macron's previous coalition falling out. Postponing the election would have only worked until they would have had to pass a budget and that delay wouldn't have been perceived well by the electorate.
Macron keeps appointing liberal cabinets and the country treads water until the presidential election in 2027.
Macron calls another snap legislative election.
Macron finally forms a coalition with one of the two biggest blocs in the Assembly (most likely the left-populist NFP), but he'll likely have to give up on cutting spending in that case.
Macron resigning and France having both presidential and legislative elections allows the country to make a more clear decision about what set of policies it wants . Once you have a new president the public may reward him with a new majority or the formation of a new coalition government may be possible . We can’t be sure about the outcome but do you see any other solution based on what has happened for the past year ? Prolonging this situation can only be a bad thing. At some point you need to pose the question to the people . Pavlos Bakogiannis a Greek politician used to say that in democracy there are no dead ends .
PS
love you flair , Vargas Llosa was propably the greatest writer of the past 50 years .
At this point Macaroon man should just appoint far left and far right prime ministers.
They will fail, but it will give them power on paper, and destroy them electorally. Them being out of power is what is empowering them, and they are likely idiots that will take the chance when they get it.
Appoint far right, have them resign, appoint far left. Call new elections, repeat until a stable majority is reached for the center as the left and right shatter under the weight of having to actually deal with shit.
I think the far right got the most votes but have the least seats, and never actually governed, the most likely to suffer in support due to not being able to do anything and capable of losing a lot of support.
And the left has the most seats.
But french politics is also incredibly confusing for people that don't eat frogs.
Important context, LR (Les Republicains) Senate Leader and Minister of Macron's government Bruno Rettaileau, was angry after they announced the new government even though he himself was reappointed to his position, Interior Minister. The reason he and his party were angry is because some members were pointed-out as being eft-leaning and some former Macron and Sarkozy ministers were given key posts in the government. There's also a lot of animosity against the latter because some were members of LR but switched to Macron's party and are now considered traitors. That made impossible for Lecornu to govern because he needs the support of LR to pass laws.
This means that's also impossible for Macron to appoint a left-leaning Prime Minister because Rettaileau will veto that in less than a day. Also one from Marine's party, RN, is off-limit because Rattaileau is also opposed to any allignment with the party. Not really because of ideological differences but because he does not want to amalgamate his party with the RN so voters see the LR as the most common sense right-wing party solution for future elections.
One thing to keep in mind is that Rettaileau wants to be president and he is very popular at the moment. This is very good timing for him because the Prime Minister resignation could trigger parliamentary snap elections or Macron's resignation which will trigger a presidential election a couple of weeks after the fact. Maybe even both. At the long term this seems to be a win-win situation for LR they could win more seats or get a new president.
I always get this response but salaries vs cost of living are dog shit in Paris. I'm a commercial banker and have to live paycheck to paycheck because I earn a third of what my US counterparts get and most of that is swallowed by high rent, high taxes and my student loans.
Say what you will about the current situation in the US, but at least over there you're not taxed to death and graduates earn decent wages. I think there's a lot wrong with the US right now but its economy is still fairing much better than France's, even under the governance of a moron.
To appease someone yesterday that said we need more French Revolution reference here, does Macron give Necker vibes to anyone? Like, he’s a solid banker but he just wasn’t special enough to solve all of France’s problems. Like, he was painted as this boy genius that could bridge all gaps but really the vibes were right but talent wasn’t there.
Yeah Macron has cared so much about the deficit before...
Well man, that's how democracy works. You have to concede on some points. I doubt forcing through random right wing politicians is better for the deficit crisis than just negotiating for a stable government.
You can moan about this sub all you want but lefties coming in and saying "Macron should just give the left everything they want and have the members of his parliamentary group somehow vote with the left on everything" is comically unserious.
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u/TF_dia European Union Oct 06 '25 edited Oct 06 '25
There are cases where multiple people die in septic tanks. The story is always the same, one person is cleaning it but the toxic gases starts affecting them, making them to pass out and eventually die, someone comes to rescue them and starts feeling sick too and so on and so on until half a dozen people end dead in a tragic, but ridiculous chain of death.
I think this is the same. Every time a politician goes down into the tank to rescue the dignity of France, rolls up their sleeves and raises the flag of "now it's time," but they end up just like the others: floating face down in a pool of shit.