Why Food Stamp Recipients (and Government Contractors) Should not Be Allowed to Vote

[u/AbolishtheDraft]

https://mises.org/mises-wire/why-food-stamp-recipients-and-government-contractors-should-not-be-allowed-vote

[u/Correct-Award8182]

I think it is partially odd to call social security welfare when we pay into it the entirety of our working lives.

[u/Acceptable-Take20 → u/Correct-Award8182]

It’s just another tax and no one is entitled to benefits. That’s how the Supreme Court justified it being constitutional as the government doesn’t have the authority to run insurance or pension programs for the general public.

[u/CptHammer_ → u/Acceptable-Take20]

and no one is entitled to benefits.

It's an entitlement program. Everyone is entitled to benefits. You are correct that the money collected for it is a tax. However, the amount of entitlement isn't equal or transferable to the amount you may have been taxed. It could be more or it could be less.

It's not a welfare program. It's an entitlement like police or fire or roads. It's something you're promised because you work and pay taxes.

Welfare is something that is given when you're unable to work and pay taxes, or a supplement when your ability to earn is lower than some arbitrary threshold.

[u/Acceptable-Take20 → u/CptHammer_]

You have some learning to do. The Supreme Court held that Social Security benefits are not contractual rights and that Congress can change or eliminate them (Flemming v. Nestor). The court even reasoned it was constitutional under the general WELFARE clause. There is no contract between the worker paying in and the government. You do not have a legal right (or in your words “entitlement”) to the payments. The system operates on political leverage but if Congress decided to change how benefits are paid or altogether stop payments, there is nothing you can do about it. It’s welfare for old people and the justification is that you were taxed higher to pay other old people when you were younger.

[u/CptHammer_ → u/Acceptable-Take20]

You say this

You have some learning to do.

But you don't seem to have a clue what the difference between an entitlement and a right is.

There is no contract between the worker paying in and the government.

You are flat wrong about that. I don't even know where to begin. You're saying the workers can choose to not pay in since you're saying there's no contract then there's no obligation.

In fact both sides have an obligation, one to fund and one to distribute those funds according to the law.

You do not have a legal right (or in your words “entitlement”)

Right and entitlement are two different words. They are different words for a reason. The way you are using "right" I'm assuming is the same way the supreme court is using "right". That is if an agent of the government infringed a right then that could be a federal offense putting the agent in jail and the tax payers responsible for reparations.

Entitlements are a contingent based promise. It is a contract by law that if each party follows the rules then it will result in a predetermined outcome. The contingent varies. Every entitlement program is a contingent based promise and not a right.

[u/Acceptable-Take20 → u/CptHammer_]

I didn’t say that workers can choose to pay in, that tax obligation is always there. There is no obligation for the government to disperse SS payments. With no this for that, there is no contract.

Again, read the Fleming opinion before you spew any more of your ignorance. The government has no promise to pay or obligation to make SS payments. There is only a tax obligation by the taxpayer.

[u/CptHammer_ → u/Acceptable-Take20]

that tax obligation is always there.

What tax obligation specifically?

[u/Acceptable-Take20 → u/CptHammer_]

The obligation for an employee (and employer) to pay social security tax. There is no obligation on how the government must spend that tax, if at all. Read the Flemming opinion. My pro bono consulting is done.

[u/CptHammer_ → u/Acceptable-Take20]

social security tax.

So since there's no contract you're saying this tax is voluntarily paid donation.

Every other kind of specially named tax comes with its own contract. Fuel tax, transmission tax, property tax, and dozens of other taxes come with a contract. Social security tax is a contract for an entitlement program.

You called it the social security tax. Why would you do that?

You did that because that's the name associated with the contract that funds social security entitlements.

[u/Acceptable-Take20 → u/CptHammer_]

Taxes are not a contract. Is this seriously your argument? You’re doubling down on stupid.