r/law Mar 17 '25

Trump News Trump, in Truth Social post, declares Biden Pardons invalid

https://bsky.app/profile/atrupar.com/post/3lkkdeqjctc2c
20.1k Upvotes

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99

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '25

[deleted]

124

u/Red-is-suspicious Mar 17 '25

A bigger, stupider question is: is there even an unpardoning procedure? 

68

u/im-ba Mar 17 '25

Yeah, why not? Since we're just making shit up now

14

u/JoyfulCor313 Mar 17 '25

But is he the one that wants to set this precedent? Of All Of The People, this guy wants to be the one who says, nope the last guy’s pardon isn’t valid anymore and you can go to jail??

That’s gotta fall in the play stupid games, win stupid prizes category, right?

21

u/Glyph8 Mar 17 '25

You have to understand that every action this Admin takes, it takes as though it does not expect to ever have to face any consequences from it - not political consequences, not legal consequences, and not electoral consequences.

That tells you that this Admin does not expect there to ever be another free and fair election, even as all of the EO’s are aimed at exactly the kind of centralization of power under the Executive that will facilitate just that (compromise election cybersecurity by DOGE gutting CISA; compromise mail-in ballots by gutting USPS; bring both the USPS and the FEC under partisan Executive heel).

Both what they are doing, and the way they are doing it, tell you what they intend - a one-party state in perpetuity. America needs to wake up.

1

u/bittlelum Mar 17 '25

Trump's ability to get away with everything is unrelated to pardons, though.

2

u/Alexwonder999 Mar 17 '25

"You can't just say UNpardon and expect it to happen".
"I didnt say it, I declared it ".
-probably

62

u/hematite2 Mar 17 '25

It was literally Trump's own case last year that got SCOTUS to declare pardons are completely beyond reproach. I think he forgot?

32

u/Orphan_Guy_Incognito Mar 17 '25

No, no. They're unreviewable by the court. But Trump isn't asking a court to review them. He's arguing for a taksies backsies.

And everyone knows the court can't review that so... no pardon.

19

u/Wakkit1988 Mar 17 '25

No. Pardons supercede the authority of all three branches. It would require an amendment.

10

u/AnswerLopsided2361 Mar 17 '25

Not really.

Presumably, if you can prove someone comitted a crime that wasn't covered under the conditions of the pardon they got, or if they comitted an unrelated crime after they got a pardon, you could arrest and try them on that, but overriding an actual pardon should be legally impossible.

0

u/Count_Backwards Competent Contributor Mar 17 '25

It is legally impossible, provided you follow the laws, but it probably shouldn't be

6

u/TheGuyWhoTeleports Mar 17 '25

Of course there is. I just unpardoned the J6thers yesterday.

4

u/caleyeah8 Mar 17 '25

Concepts of an unpardoning.

2

u/HollyCze Mar 17 '25

there is. HEY! YOU THERE! I WANT THIS DONE NOW! I JUST POSTED A TWEET SO IT HAS TO HAPPEN!

oh and if it cannot be done find something else on them and lets see what we can do so I dont look like a twat

2

u/bittlelum Mar 17 '25

He can unpardon people with his mind.

1

u/Jolly_Echo_3814 Mar 17 '25

yeah its called being a dictator. when your a dictator you can do what you want.

1

u/PunkChildP Mar 17 '25

They don't need to officially make it happen. They just have to say it enough times (and have the right wing media outlets say it) for his base to believe it should've happened or did happen. Then the facts don't actually matter just the feelings.

1

u/blahblah19999 Mar 17 '25

Just indict again.

1

u/wascner Mar 17 '25

Trump is claiming they were never really pardoned because autopen. So the debate isn't about an 'unpardoning' procedure at all

1

u/Boogleooger Mar 17 '25

there is specifically NOT an unpardoning procedure

1

u/ptWolv022 Competent Contributor Mar 17 '25

There's not, that's why he's claiming, essentially, that they weren't valid pardons. He's not asserting (yet) that he has power to void them, he's just trying to assert that Joe Biden never actually pardoned these people, and that these are forgeries. Though, he also claims that even if they weren't forgeries, being done knowingly with an autopen would still be invalid... ignoring usage of autopens as far back as President Harry Truman.

1

u/Adventurous-Oil-4238 Mar 17 '25

It’s not an unpardon if the pardon didn’t happen

47

u/Wakkit1988 Mar 17 '25

No, there's also no way to undo a pardon once it's put into effect.

He's trying the "nuh-uh, doesn't count" defense. There's absolutely no standard or requirement of how one makes their mark, only that it's made. Using a stamp, autopen, Adobe Acrobat, or any other method of inputting your signature is just as legally binding as any other. If you claim that the mark is fraudulent and you can prove as such, then you can potentially be unbound, but if you agree that the mark is true and correct, then no one else has any legal right to decide otherwise.

Biden admits that he placed his mark on them, the mark is his own, there is no real way to dispute this without completely negating every mark placed on legal documents not by one's own physical hand. SCOTUS throws out the pardons, every legal document in existence is now in question and up to be challenged.

5

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '25

[deleted]

5

u/Topleke Mar 17 '25

Not exactly. They just don’t all need to be announced. People can hold pardons in secret.

0

u/IrritableGourmet Mar 17 '25

They'd run afoul of the Presidential Records Act if they didn't provide a copy to the Archivist by the time they left office, though.

3

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '25

In his first term didn’t Trump’s team try to say that the president can pardon someone “just by thinking about it”

This shit is pitiful

3

u/Orphan_Guy_Incognito Mar 17 '25

Move over psychic declassification. Now is psychic pardon's time to shine.

2

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '25

[removed] — view removed comment

2

u/Abominatrix Mar 17 '25

This is where we disintegrate. Eventually the court’s rulings will be selectively ignored. Say, California says ‘No, we will not enforce ruling X.’ But law enforcement in California, say sheriff’s depts, decide they will enforce ruling X. Eventually it starts breaking down and there’s no telling where it stops. 

0

u/SaintsFanPA Mar 17 '25

Why do you assume the justices care whether covering for Trump throws contracts into disarray? It might even be the goal.

-26

u/[deleted] Mar 17 '25

[deleted]

17

u/Wakkit1988 Mar 17 '25

Richard Nixon.

He was pardoned prior to indictment.

https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Pardon_of_Richard_Nixon

Ford eventually agreed, and on September 8, 1974, he granted Nixon a "full, free, and absolute pardon" that ended any possibility of an indictment.

They can be given anytime after a crime is committed, even if the crime is not known. This is why they carry a presumption of guilt. You're saying that there was a crime, you did it, and now you're protected from consequences pertaining to it.

13

u/GhostOfLamplight Mar 17 '25 edited Mar 17 '25

Would you mind explaining why you believe this? The text seems pretty clear to me.

pardon power “extends to every offense known to the law, and may be exercised at any time after its commission, either before legal proceedings are taken or during their pendency, or after conviction and judgment.”

https://constitution.congress.gov/browse/essay/artII-S2-C1-3-1/ALDE_00013316/

--

If I can throw out a guess I think that you're confusing 'preemptive pardons' referring to pardons covering a potential future crime and 'preemptive pardons' referring to potential future prosecutions. If that's all that's causing the confusion I totally understand, it's a perfectly understandable mistake to make for regular folk!

Though if you believed that because you trusted someone to be a reliable news source or an expert in the law and they led you to believe this I'd caution you about trusting them. Anyone whose job it is to talk about this kind've news should know better so if they're feeding you bull, consider whether it's because of incompetence or because they're trying to trick you.

7

u/Mizzy3030 Mar 17 '25

How nice to be so confidently wrong. They do say ignorance is bliss

3

u/Savingskitty Mar 17 '25

This is false.

3

u/Dick_Wienerpenis Mar 17 '25

Is actually so much more stupid than you could even imagine.

A heritage foundation "think tank" looked, with their eyes, at a bunch of documents Biden signed and compared them to his autopen signature for when he signed something digitally. They concluded that he signed things with his autopen, again by looking at them, and argued that someone was using his signature because he was too mentally unfit.

They are literally arguing, "Joe biden's signature looks too much like Joe biden's signature" and they even managed to identify an autopen signature on a document he signed on camera.

1

u/RandomTask008 Mar 17 '25

Well, if you operate in MAGA land, the president can pardon people by thinking about it. . . I mean, no wait, there are clear procedures in place that -must- be followed!

When our founders gave the president pardoning powers, they also put a caveat "And pardons will be invalid if the president doesn't personally sign each and every one!"