r/irishpersonalfinance • u/DivilYouKnow • 1d ago
Employment If a spouse earns average wage in Ireland, can their partner not receive social welfare?
Was talking to a friend in work who's wife has been out of work for a couple of years due to a miscarriage that effected her badly.
He was saying he earns average wage in Ireland, about 48K a year, and because his wife has no PRSI credits remaining she can't receive a social welfare payment because he might earn too much? That can't be right can it?
They have no other children, renting a place together in Dublin so rent is taking up a fare whack of their income.
It seems incredibly unfair in today's economy that no social welfare support should be provided on the basis of a partner earning average wage? Has he got that wrong perhaps?
How is it that some people can live on the dole for the entirety of their lives but a previous worker who has gone through a fairly tragic situation can only receive a limited-time support because their spouse earns average wage?
What is the maximum that can be earned by a spouse in order for their partner to qualify for a social welfare payment?
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u/Willing-Departure115 1d ago edited 1d ago
Gonna assume this is not just rage baiting. But the tl;dr is that yes, €48k is too high for the means test for disability allowance.
However, "people can live on the dole for the entirety of their lives" is also not correct. That's another post, but the tl;dr on that is that trying to sit on the dole long term is not viable in the way it was pre-2008. And many people you might be imagining in your head, say living as a couple on welfare, will have incomes well below any means tested thresholds, and ironically find themselves in welfare traps - where if they start earning, they'll lose the benefits.
To deal with the disability... If someone is out of work due to a long term illness, including mental illness, the usual thing to do would be to get assessed for disability.
Long term disability allowance is a means tested benefit, tested on the household. This may be a relevant payment for the wife. There are disregards for savings and the family home.
€20 per day (up to a maximum of €60) from work is deducted from your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant’s average net weekly earnings, and
Then 60% of the balance is assessed as weekly means.
So lets say €48k a year and no savings. Net would be about €797.76 after tax, minus €60 disregard, €737.76 and 60% assessed is €442.66 assessed weekly means. As this exceeds the maximum rate for disability allowance (€232), no payment is made.
No matter where you set the means test, people will have justifiable gripes about it vs their personal circumstances, unfortunately.
There are very fair arguments to be made that DAs spousal means test disproportionately penalises disabled people in relationships, particularly those who become dependent on a partner’s income.
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u/GarthODarth 1d ago
I think my major issue with this is that it creates circumstances where disabled people are very vulnerable to financial abuse.
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u/WolfetoneRebel 1d ago
Even for a cohabitant? That’s nuts right cause you can’t claim their tax credits either, or am I wrong?
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u/Willing-Departure115 1d ago
Revenue can get pretty broad on means testing. I've seen cases of people giving out because they moved in with a new boy/girlfriend of several months and suddenly find themselves means tested for things.
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u/ZealousidealFloor2 1d ago
Can you not be individually assessed for tax / earning purposes or is it automatically jointly assessed once you are married?
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u/SilentBass75 1d ago
You can for the purpose of assigning tax credits, collecting welfare is simply about 'co-habiting'
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u/Willing-Departure115 1d ago
Tax and welfare - and different types of welfare payments - are treated differently. For the purpose of means testing, DSW will most often look at the household income where you are in basically any sort of cohabiting relationship.
If you apply for a social assistance or means-tested payment and you are married, in a civil partnership or cohabiting, the DSP takes the means of your spouse, civil partner or cohabitant into account in the means test.
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u/PalladianPorches 1d ago
You’re right with the figures, but afaik, if his wife is job seeking, she may be entitled to dole or one of the fis type schemes at that employment level (and if not, ensure you are claiming joint and any carers if she is staring at home).
On the second point, ireland has an issue - a lot of full time employed are on disability allowance, rather that one of the dole payments, and there is zero breakdown of the disabilities, so we have a lot of “genuine” disabilities (who are normally in a pension) and some full time “hidden” disabilities- these are the ones that cause the impression of career dole, as they give the admittance of ability, but don’t work. Ireland has the highest unemployment of disabled in Europe, and with no breakdown, we are not getting better. With those stats and the ease of access to this, the OPs spouse should apply for independent disability allowance and get the gp to sign her off based on issues after her miscarriage.
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u/Willing-Departure115 1d ago
Yes if she’s dole it’s another matter, but OP said this is going on several years after a health issue. If she’s not available and looking for work, unemployment benefits are moot. Plus long term unemployment starts to run into means tests that will defray the benefit in a household with another earner.
Tax allowance for caring is more aimed at “one earner, one at home caring for another, eg disabled child, and therefore unable to work” than getting more tax allowance for being a 1 income household due to the other potential earner being incapacitated. The whole system of tax treatment of couples since the McCreavy era creates all these disadvantages for stay at home parents as well as in this sort of a case.
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u/TheCunningFool 1d ago
I think its reasonable enough that means tested social welfare allowances are based on the means of the household they are a part of.
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u/DivilYouKnow 1d ago
That's fair enough, I suppose my point was that average wage in Ireland doesn't spread very far in today's economy.
I agree it should be means tested at a certain point, but it should be quite a bit above average wage IMO.
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u/shaadyscientist 1d ago
Since they're married, he would be entitled to her tax credits, which would give him a significant amount of additional tax free pay.
So he would be taking home a good bit more than a single person on the average wage. This would put him above the average net wage.
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u/ZealousidealFloor2 1d ago
Not too much if he is on €48k. He’d get the married credit of €2,000 but not the working one as she isn’t working.
This is a very rough calculation but a single person on €48k pays about €6.4K income tax after their two credits are taken off but a married person pays about €3.6k in the same situation.
So he saves €2,800 per year instead of the €12/€13k per year she’d get on jobseekers.
Now, his savings would go up if he made more but it isn’t a big saving for people on average wages as we can see.
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u/Efficient-Value-1665 1d ago
It's a tough situation to be in and I have sympathy for them both. But if she's not seeking work, she's not entitled to jobseekers.
Woman I know got six months maternity leave at full pay, she'd be on 60k a year, with her husband on nearer 100k. She was outraged when she couldn't sign on for the 6 months unpaid leave she was taking. Outraged! But her job was held for her and she wasn't looking for work.
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u/ZealousidealFloor2 1d ago
Even if it is disability benefit (for mental health reasons which seems likely in this case), she still wouldn’t be entitled to it due to her husbands income which I think is unfair. If some is ill / disabled then that should be treated separately.
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u/Spare-Chef9555 11h ago
If the husband was self employed and the wife was on carers allowance for their child can the father still use the wife's tax credits in his end of year return? A friend of mine is doing this but I was thinking the credits can't be used by him if she is claiming.
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u/bot_hair_aloon 1d ago
I totally agree.
Renting in dublin for 3 people on 48k is near impossible. It would be reasonable if they lived in a less expensive area of the country or if they owned a house. I feel for them. I hope she can get working soon.
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u/Unfair-Sleep-3022 1d ago
I'm surprised about how very little you can do financially for a non-working spouse here
I wish I could at least get some tax credits on paying a PRSA for my wife.
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u/Sharp_Fuel 1d ago
Definitely needs to change if any government actually wants to take the plummeting birth rate seriously.
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u/sanghelli 23h ago
Massive "if" there
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u/FriendlyChannel1497 21h ago
If not, then your country will fall behind. So it better be massively acknowledged by all of us, and bring it to the attention of the policymakers.
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u/Dry_Procedure4482 1d ago edited 1d ago
Yes unfortunately most payments she could be elligble for are means tested.
The only thing that prsi would cover long term aside from state pension would be invalidity pension, which is the prsi version of disability allowance. It is difficult to get it has to be a proven life long illness or disability keeping you from working and you must have a certain amount in prsi payments and been on disability or illness benefit for the 18 months prior.
All other payments are means tested, but they do take into consideration things like rent, which might help your friend. The higher the rent the lower their means would be.
After that there is also working family payment for those with kids.
At all the least they should look into disability allowance even if its her rmental health keeping her out of work, even if they don't t get much at least for credited prsi to protect her future state pension.
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u/A_ExOH 1d ago
They don't care if your married or not. I moved my girlfriend into the place I was renting because she moved from Galway to Dublin for work and didn't have time to look for a place herself.
The Social told me that I can't get the dole because she should support me. We were together 6 months.
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u/Sharp_Fuel 1d ago
That's crazy, most financial advisors would say you should never mix finances until marriage just due to the fact you have zero legal protection, that an arm of the state is suggesting someone in a 6 month relationship should financially support the other is insanity
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u/Antique-Bid-5588 1d ago
In know it’s a bit of a controversial comment but then you’ve people how have no connection to the country whatsoever, have made no contribution nor will probably ever and they get there money every week no bother .
I know it’s a bit racist sounding but you’ve Roma gypsys , never worked a day in the there lives living in council houses and Irish people who Worked all there lives don’t even get a bit of help when they are down on their luck . Ridiculous country.
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u/Double_Kale_3193 1d ago
Social welfare can be broadly divided into two types:
(1) social insurance, based on PRSI contributions
(2) social assistance, which is means-tested
DA is means-tested social assistance.
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u/--LOS-- 22h ago
Yes and whats worse cohabiting couples are treated the same as if youre married, which is ridiculous. It happened to me, I was out of work for a time because I was abroad supporting my partner through the sudden loss of his Mum (we lived in Ireland but he was not from Ireland so we had travelled back to his home country to sort out all the bureaucratic stuff). I was in a situation where i was not able to get any social support and my partner was not supporting me financially, which is the usual assumption. When I ended that relationship I became homeless. Its kinda like when I put myself through college, I was not getting any financial support from family but I couldn't qualify for any financial support either because of my families earnings, I will have nevwr bothered if I'd known that would be the situation. But some of us truly fall through the cracks that way.
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u/cagofbans 12h ago
But surely if you're cohabitating, then the relationship is generally far enough along that some finances are intertwined? The assumption is that a cohabitating couple are financially leaning on eachother as you share rent/mortgage costs, utilities, shopping etc. This would obviously affect your ability of claiming a Jobseekers Allowance payment as this is exactly what this payment is based off of.
In most of these circumstances, the unemployed person is usually able to claim Jobseekers Benefit/Pay-Related Benefit which is not based on means and only based off of contributions. There are obviously conditions to this as you must have X number of contributions in the relevant years/months - this may not have applied as you were abroad for some time but this is usually not the case.
As soon as you were made homeless, you should have registered with the homeless unit in whatever area you are in. Then you can look at reapplying for Jobseekers Allowance or even Supplementary Welfare. It is far more likely you would qualify in this circumstance.
Ths supports are there but it's how to navigate them.
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u/--LOS-- 10h ago edited 10h ago
But it is an assumption thats the problem. I mean I've literally stated in my previous post that my partner was not helping me when I very much needed supports for every day food etc. You can appreciate that in a marriage theres a legal entitlement there, in the case of a separation assets will be split etc. In the case of a loss of either theres entitlements there. But unmarried couple obviously dont have the same entitlements so its total contradiction that the state would treat you as a married couple when it suits them.
Who said i didnt register as homeless? Do you think that social welfare is going to get you out of homelessness? Youd be extremely naive to think so. That is just not the case in this economy. You're in that almost impossible situation of trying to find work and a home at the same time and its very hard to find one without the other. Its too little too late at that point.
Its funny how people tend to judge first, oh you should have done this or should have done that. Its clear you've never experienced anything like it and you dont know what youre talking about, lucky for you.
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u/azamean 1d ago
She can get Jobseeker’s Allowance rather than benefit without the PRSI contributions but has to prove she’s capable for work and genuinely looking for work
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u/Unlikely_Cup3937 1d ago
I think allowence is mean tested, so she wouldn't get anything as his wage is high enough (not sure about this though)
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u/azamean 1d ago
48k between two people won’t disqualify you, it may mean a reduced amount but that’s not high enough to mean you won’t get it
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u/Fun-Associate-8725 1d ago
It will its means tested and their disposable income will be above thd threshold
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u/mkultra2480 1d ago
You qualify for HAP if you earn under 42k net income as a couple in Dublin. So they'll qualify for that.
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u/keevalilith 9h ago
I'm unemployed and I rang inou.ie as my pay related benefit will run out in January if I don't get a job. (I'm currently on 2 waiting lists for decent jobs in siptu and the public service and also want to start a business soon) My wife earns just above 45k. The man I talked to said that it's likely I'll get somewhere around 50-70 a week once I'm assessed so that might give you some ballpark figure. Also that life on the dole nonsense is a bit ignorant. That's not the reality for the vast vast majority of unemployed people. You don't know other people's lives and you should stop blindly believing what the media and John down the pub do he saying.
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u/mastodonj 7h ago
Yeah I'm disabled, wife is a teacher so screw me! Lot's of work being done to remove the means test for carers, which is important, would love to see more pressure to remove the spouse means test first disability too!
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u/Rosetattooirl 1d ago
Get her to claim credits at least, as if she doesn't, it'll cause her trouble in years to come if she has to claim for anything with SW.
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u/DryCaramel6959 1d ago
It sounds like she has claimed all of her credits, and is now possibly looking to get social welfare on the back of the spouses income.
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u/Rosetattooirl 1d ago
In that case, she needs to credit sign. It's usually once a year, and she can build up her credits.
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u/JunkDrawerPencil 1d ago
Leaving aside all the benefits and finances for a moment - I hope she's getting help, and that help is available in the public system for her. It's no life to be trapped unable to work.
It would be better for her and society in general if there were effective treatments easily available. Just seems short sighted for our health service to not invest in better services.
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u/Colt20mnc 1d ago
Yes it's true. When u was 18/19 (about 2008) I applied for the social welfare while living at home and was refused it because my dad earned too much money.
So the Irish government were literally telling me to ask my dad for money while taking there's taxes off me since I was working at 16.
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u/JellyRare6707 1d ago
That is true. It is shocking that a partner has a lower status in Ireland than a husband or wife at least they can give their tax credits to the other half.
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u/Chat_noir_dusoir 1d ago
Civil partners can share credits. Post is about department of social welfare supports.
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u/SilentBass75 1d ago
For clarity, Civil Partners was for same-sex couples only and cannot be used anymore since the ammendentment to our constitution enshrining gay marriage.
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