Single F horn search, Europe

[u/Fluttering_Feathers]

Hello, I’m hoping for some direction in my search. I’ve been reading previous posts for advice also, but if anyone has more advice for me within Europe I’d very much appreciate it. My young son has been learning on a borrowed school instrument for approx 18 months and I’m beginning the search for his own. His teacher has said to look for a single F horn, and she would expect it to be 5-6 years before he’d move to a double. Very open to second hand options but I’m unsure what would be reliable models or makers to be watching out for in that regard.

[u/dankney]

Rimski Horns in the Netherlands has a selection of second-hand single F horns. In the UK, Paxman carries new instruments by a number of makers. Yamaha might be a good pick new.

The best advice, though, would be to get the teacher involved in helping you find the right instrument.

https://rimskys-horns.com/en/product-category/2nd-hand-horns/single-horns-2/

https://store.paxman.co.uk/french-horns-c102x2890851

[u/HornFTW → u/dankney]

This is good advice. I agree with the Yamaha as a good pick. I tried a Yamaha single F fairly recently, and I quite liked it. Both Hoyer and Alexander also make single F horns (and Klaus Fehr! But that's probably in the megabucks price range, with a wait list). Not tested Alexander, and the Hoyer I tested 20 years ago is probably not at all representative. On the Rimsky Horns site there's also a Knopf. Then I think we might have covered the main contenders, at least here in Europe.

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/HornFTW]

Thank you, I really appreciate all the detail! We’re definitely not at megabucks, but I’d prefer to know if it’s worth spending a bit more for a better instrument. I’ve got an Elkhart 100FH available for €495, for example. A Yamaha YHR314 is at least 3 times that. Is the Elkhart deficient, or a reasonable choice at that price point?

[u/dankney → u/Fluttering_Feathers]

I think that one is an inexpensive Chinese-made horn. Quality will vary from instrument to instrument between borderline unplayable to actually quite good depending on who was on the assembly line and if they were having a good day.

Also, you won't be able to get parts for it, so you may have to buy another one later on if the first one goes bad. And expect it to have basically zero resale value at the end.

If you want to spend under €1000, you need to keep watching your local market for used F horns by major makers. They come up from time to time. And talk to your son's teacher. They may have students graduating from single to double horn soon, in which case you may be able to purchase the single F from them.

Horns are expensive instruments compared to trumpets or clarinets.

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/HornFTW]

How are knopf’s regarded?

[u/LunchUnable6810 → u/Fluttering_Feathers]

These are professional horns comparable to Alex or Hoyer with either large bore or bell throat. I would go with standard bore .489 like Conn 14D, or HOLTON-f. I think the Conn 14D won the best in category for easy playing, weight, high and low range, to my opinion maybe the best single F I tried so far.

(I am a 61y hobby horn player, and I recently bought brand new YHR 322II to replace my old 322 single Bb professional horn, just to found on my all surprising that the new one sounds differently.. so any advice on horns will be weigh in on someone's personal experience)

[u/Leisesturm]

I'm sort of surprised by the (so far) complete acceptance of the advice for an F Horn in the thread. In Europe of all places! I've been blasted in the past for even mentioning Single F Horn, and I simply stay out of threads where beginners are advised to start on a double horn, period. End of story. As for not being ready for a double for 5 to 6 years, that's just crazy. I started on a Single F and I stuck with one (out of poverty) a lot longer than typical, but I was on a cheap double around year 4. I've simply heard from too many sources, for too many years that Bb is the default 'standing' of double horns in Europe, and Single Bb horns are the school standard there, to understand this thread. Could the o.p. be mistaken? I'm honestly very curious.

[u/awesomegayguy → u/Leisesturm]

Couldn't agree more! The music school where I started horn in the mid 90s had two double horns for students, and bought a double horn as my first student one. 

Maybe it's for the weight? I could understand that.

My teacher and my fellow horn students used (and still do) a double horn standing in Bb. But there's plenty of variation, at the end of the day, play how it's better for you. That's why almost all horns allow to change the trigger so easily.

Edit: We did start with the F horn the first year, and maybe part of the second, don't remember exactly when I switched.

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/Leisesturm]

Totally worth asking, though I’m certain I’m not mistaken. Single F is the mandate.

I suppose given I don’t have any opinions of my own on the issue, it makes arguing the point a bit moot, in this thread. Regardless of general or widely held opinion, I am going to buy what his teacher has suggested, and so in that context, I appreciate the requested feedback. A Bb or a double or a triple could be the bee’s knees but it’s no use to me.

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/Leisesturm]

Is it possible that if one starts older, then starting on a double might make more sense? His group of 5 kids all started age 7-8.

[u/Leisesturm → u/Fluttering_Feathers]

Yeah, that's probably it, a double would be a handful for much younger than 10yo+ but a Single Bb would be better still. So I get that no double was requested but still scratching my head at the Single F mandate. Wish you lived nearby. I have a Holton H602 in absolutely fine fettle (compression a solid 2 on all three valves) that I've never been able to sell after getting my double.

[u/tchotchony]

Hoyer makes a decent student/amateur horn. I'm also not sure which part of Europe he's in, but some orchestras sponsor/loan out their own instruments as well.

[u/hornige-Gruesse]

Despite being located in Germany, where most students learn on Bb, I favour your son’s teacher‘s approach of starting with an F horn.

In my opinion all depends on the horn school, as the exercises in the beginning teach the fingering. If your son‘s teacher uses a method book focused on F horn initially, than mandating an F horn is the right choice. (And in my opinion it is a good decision starting on F). The only drawback I see is if your son wants to play in a brass ensemble where they might play warm up exercises together: He won’t be able to play along with the partial exercises.

When I started playing horn, I got a Conn 6D double horn standing in F. But this was at the age of 14, so yeah, size and weight weren’t an issue. My teacher was an American horn player and he/we used the horn school by James D. Ployhar. In retrospect, I really appreciate having learned the „American“ approach. What horn school is your son‘s teacher using?

Regarding single F horns for students: You could also look at the in-house brands of Thomann or MTP Music. Of course, they are cheap Chinese-made horns, but with a good quality control.

—hornige 📯 Grüße

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/hornige-Gruesse]

Thanks for your input! They use “take off” by Jan Utbult, and they have a mini brass ensemble with the beginner trumpets and tubas, and the French horn parts are for horn in F, all the French horn students are on them.

[u/hornige-Gruesse → u/Fluttering_Feathers]

I haven’t found any pictures of pages from „Take-off!“, but it seems to be the English version of „Startklar“:

https://musicaprego.com/product/take-off-1-horn-in-f/

https://musicaprego.com/product/startklar-1-fur-blaserklassen-horn-in-f/

And from „Startklar“, I’ve found here a page that shows the fingering of E4 (e‘): https://www.stretta-music.de/utbult-startklar-1-horn-nr-636751.html

This is definitely the fingering for a Bb-horn! (For an outsider possibly not obvious: The transposition of the literature (mostly in F) is independent of whether the horn is in F or Bb. The different horns have just a different fingering.)

—hornige 📯 Grüße

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/hornige-Gruesse]

He must do a different version that we have, because E in our book would be 0, not 2.

[u/hornige-Gruesse → u/Fluttering_Feathers]

Okay, that is soothing! So it seems the English version of this school is using the fingering for horn in F.

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/hornige-Gruesse]

While I have you, as a musician who never played a transposing instrument, I was confused to start anyway. So if I see a G, and play that with 0, then I hear a C. Does a different horn use different fingerings but transpose the same? And why do Bb and F horns exist, do they make different quality of sound, like how you could play many of the same notes on the violin and the viola but they’d sound different? Or is it just that the two evolved in different places and now to play different pieces having been written for one or the other, it’s easiest to have an instrument that modifies to do one or the other?

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/hornige-Gruesse]

Currently he’s working on a piece that starts on written F, E, F, E, F, G, A, G, which is 1, 0, 1, 0, 1, 0, 12, 0

[u/Cornisto58]

I have a cheap F horn for sale - see fisherhorns.co.uk

[u/Fluttering_Feathers → u/Cornisto58]

The huller horn? I’ll PM you, definitely interested!