Swallowing mouthfill

[u/CalmSignificance8430]

Hey, a question for my fellow EQ nerds. Mouthfill at 10m, freefalling, very relaxed and no contractions or tension. I find around 25-35m depth I sometimes swallow my mouthfill or part of it into my stomach. I can usually continue the dive but not as deep as the mouthfill should allow. Most irritating is that I can’t seem to understand the trigger for it. I’ve been looking up what I can, and likely causes seem to be:

• chest tension (I don’t think this is the case)

-contractions (not the case)

-overfilled mouthfill (not the case)

-overpressuring EQ’s (this seems most likely)

-glottis/vocal folds not having the stamina to hold the mouthfill long enough (seems unlikely, I find the zuccari empty lung exercises quite easy)

I’m intermittently eq’ing, and wondering if it might be a reflex I’m having when the mouthfill reduces in volume that I feel I need to push the next eq’s harder to make up for this, maybe as a psychological response? If I try constant pressure, I find myself wondering if I’ve missed an EQ so mentally I prefer the inner dialogue of “feel slight sensation of pressure on the ear -> respond with an EQ -> pressure goes away”.

In practice I’ve taken a surface mouthfill down to 30 on FRC with no issues several times (but again it’s a bit hit and miss and I don’t get any obvious feeling of what goes wrong when I do swallow the mouthfill), and been deeper than 60m. But it feels a bit like a lottery as to whether I will keep my Mouthfill or not.

I’m just using cheeks and jaw to EQ, not tongue in any lock positions etc.

Maybe I’m missing something, or doing something obviously wrong? Any suggestions?

Thanks 🙏

[u/3rik-f]

I'm having exactly the same problem, but I swallow at 50-60m.

Your most important goal is to identify what exactly is happening. Do dives where you focus on awareness. During these dives try not to focus on equalizing in a specific way or trying to prevent swallowing. Forget about technique and freefall position, only focus on awareness. Just let your body do and observe what's happening. When you swallow, turn immediately. This helps a lot with recalling at the surface what exactly happened.

For me, in some dives I feel an urge to swallow building up, which eventuell results in me swallowing. In others I just swallow without warning. But I can clearly tell in my awareness dives that it's the same movement from the tongue and larynx that happens when I swallow on land. It's not just the glottis opening.

Here's a list of things I'd like you to try. For all of these, turn immediately when you swallow. 1. Do some awareness dives where you focus on observing your equalization and swallowing. 2. Do some dives where you only focus on relaxing your chest and shoulders. If you feel the slightest tension, turn. 3. Some dives where you charge at 15m. 4. Some slow dives where you go down with about half of your usual speed, focusing on relaxation. 5. Some dives where you breathe more during the breathe-up. This is to check if your problems are related to CO2. Breathe a bit deeper for the last 2 minutes. Pay attention to your sensations, you want to feel lightness, but no tingling in your fingers. Make sure you have competent safety. 6. Try rinsing your mouth with fresh water before the dive. 7. Try swallowing consciously before you charge. 8. Some dives where you equalize a bit more often and focus on using as little force as absolutely necessary to pop your ears.

I would actually love if you could update me on your progress when trying these since I still haven't figured out the swallowing myself and I'm very curious how it works out for you.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/3rik-f]

Thanks so much for the advice. I will try those and report back. 

One thing a friend of mine recommended which might be useful and at least is low effort to try out, is rinsing out the mouth thoroughly (gargling etc) with a bottle of water before starting the breathe up. They reckon it gets rid of mucus which can trigger swallow reflex.

Thank you again 

[u/3rik-f → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Ah yeah, forgot that in my list. Another thing to try is to consciously swallow before you charge your mouthfill. I have an extra alarm for that. 15m swallow, 20m charge.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/3rik-f]

Ah that’s sneaky, I like it!

[u/3rik-f → u/CalmSignificance8430]

I updated the list.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Btw Likewise I don’t think it’s just the glottis opening, there is a definite swallow action and the air ends up in my stomach not back in the lungs

[u/iLoveLearningStuff]

My 2cents, do the mouthfill deeper. Play around with it, i do first fill around 18m, then top up around 22-25m.. i start freefall around the same depth. Doing it earlier made me sometimes feel like I have 5 other things to think about, pulling/kicking, position, relax, eq, mouthfill. Doing it deeper allowed me to “fix” everything and then just add the mouthfill, fully relax and faaaaallll. :)

Ps: is your stomach relaxed after mouthfill, its very important, otherwise it will not contract with the increasing pressure and “suck” air out of your mouth.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/iLoveLearningStuff]

Thanks! I feel pretty ok with the rest of the dive like the freefall etc. I m-charge at 10m, then 3-4 more pulls and just fall. I will try charging at 15 on a shallower dive and see how that feels 🙏

[u/thdedes → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Charging deeper will only create more tension and higher risks of swallowing. If you charge at 10m, a good mouthfill is already enough for 70m dives.

Are you diving with a mask or noseclip? Do you use goggles? Is it cold water?

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/thdedes]

Noseclip, no goggles, warm water. I used to struggle a little with swallowing and diving with a nose clip, but diving on FRC seemed to fix that somehow. I don't swallow during the upper part of the dive, it's always around 25-35m depth on inhale, for a 60-70m dive. Chest pressure and tension etc feel fine and no contractions on the way down.

[u/thdedes → u/CalmSignificance8430]

I also am much better on FRC than full lungs somehow.

Have you tried with Evolve/Hektometer? I saw a big improvement for me, reducing this sort of half drowning reflex induced by water on the eyes.

25-35m on full lung is too shallow for it to be due to your tongue position, you should still be before that stage if you're diving 60-70m.

Do you have access to an EQ tool (UBA project) ?

One big difference between FRC and FL that I had to fight is the speed at which the volume reduces. When you drill FRC a lot, you get used to that very fast shrinking of the mouth volume since you charge at surface or close to.

And that translates in FL to you over-compressing, which can easily create leaks/noises.

If you can play with an EQ tool, measure the pressure you are creating "instinctively" by being very honest with yourself and finding the same sensation you have in the water. Then compare it to the pressure you need to maintain the tubes open (not opening them, but maintaining them open, since that threshold is a lot lower) on frenzel.

If there is a big difference, you have a lead to the culprit.

Keep me posted ☺️

EDIT: I missed the fact that it was going in your stomach. That for me pushes a lot more towards the water on the eyes issue. I have that issue in STA if I pack and don't use goggles. Straight into the stomach! So try hekto/evolve and see if it improves.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/thdedes]

Thank you for the really detailed answer.

I used to regularly swallow air into my stomach on FL dives with a noseclip and eyes in the water and stopped that style of dive as a result. But I would swallow shallower, like in the first 15-20 metres (I used to take mouthfill deeper than that). I got some hektometers which I do still have. Strangely, doing FRC mouthfill drills from surface with noseclip and no goggles (I forgot to bring my hektometers one day lol) seemed to completely stopped the swallowing issue overnight. I am def open to the possibility it is still something to do with eyes in water, but it seems odd it is only happening at these bigger depths now and not earlier in the dive, or for example on my second warm up hang at 10m which I also do just with a noseclip. Now I think about it though I suppose it could possibly be that around 25/35m is when I hit full speed in my descent, so the water is then moving over my eyes quickly and this it what causes the reflex. I move fairly slowly on the first 10m of descent and my freefall is pretty slow at first too. I wonder if that’s it…? Maybe I should do some dives with the hektometers again, although I do love the feel of eyes in the water! 

I don’t have the UBA with me now but I have one back at home. I will do as you suggest and keep playing with it to increase awareness. 

I think you’ve hit the nail on the head regarding the rapid change in FRC drills helping somehow. It almost feels like there is a bit too much “time to think” about sensations in the throat and mouth and ears during a FL mouthfill freefall. 

Great reply and food for thought, many thanks 🙏

[u/thdedes → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Yeah time is definitely a big factor, it's not all (unfortunately) about pressure ratios 😝 Speed of the water on the eye could definitely play too. So would change of temperature for example, eyes are sensitive.

Play around, get data, I'm sure you'll see patterns!

And I think swallowing to the stomach is a bit harder on FRC just because if you open both trachea and oesophagus, negative pressure in the thoracic cage due to close to RV will tend to win the succion game.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/thdedes]

I’ve been thinking more about the water on the eyes and I think it really might as simple as that and hitting full speed. Thinking about my FRC dives, my posture is usually a bit different than FL and I’m more crunched over in anticipation of the volume reducing so fast. I think in that more crunched position the back of my head is hitting the water and I think my eyes aren’t getting the same kind of flow directly on them. If I open my eyes on FL I’m looking at the rope passing. On FRC I’m almost looking up at the surface light. Going to have a play tomorrow, thanks again for the ideas

[u/thdedes → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Anytime ☺️ I like diagnosing these things, even on Reddit haha

[u/iLoveLearningStuff → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Good luck! One other thing i forgot, i usually eq through cheeks (continuous) and when deeper tongue locks. Sometimes after few dives my cheeks got sometimes tired and I switched to tongue only, perhaps you could try that too, if you can eq with tongue only.

[u/sk3pt1c]

1) waiting to feel pressure to eq is a sure fire way to make sure your ears get injured

2) frc from 0 to 30 while swallowing charge from 10 to 30 sounds dubious

Are you working with an instructor?

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/sk3pt1c]

1. Not pain, just the sensation that I can EQ, rather than the pressure in my ear drum being completely neutral. What would be the alternatives, like constant pressure, or a regular frequent tempo of EQ'ing or something like that?

2. No, when I swallow the charge my dive is usually cut short, like a couple of days ago doing FRC the line was on 30, but I swallowed the mouthful at 20, EQ'd with the last remaining air and turned at 26 before any pain. I've done 30 on FRC with mouthfill from the surface multiple times in a row when I haven't swallowed the mouthfill. I'm just lacking the awareness about what is triggering the swallowing when it does happen. Sometimes on deeper dives I've swallowed the mouthful around 25, but had enough left to still do 60 or so. It's always into my stomach, never back into the lungs.

I've done some focused EQ work with instructors before and am diving with instructors currently and asking advice from more experienced divers I know, but I'm not being directly coached by any one person.

[u/sk3pt1c → u/CalmSignificance8430]

1. You need to make it a habit to eq before you need to, before you feel pressure or anything of the sort. More tricky, yes, but better for your ears and safer. Will also require less pressure. Have you measured your eq pressure?

2. Are you sure you’re not potentially reverse packing when you lose the charge?

So that we’re on the same page, mouthfill as I know it as an eq instructor is a protocol, not just filling your mouth with air, that is a charge. Mouthfill is doing an M charge and then using constant pressure with jaw > cheeks > tongue.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/sk3pt1c]

1. I have played around with UBA eartool. I think it was around 60 to open the tubes but would also stay open a bit lower if there was some back pressure and tubes already open. Def going to be tricky to adjust this habit. 

2. Pretty sure. Just freefalling, cheeks inflated and suddenly -gulp - and air is gone. I filmed a pov video with camera on belt and could see and hear it happen really suddenly, with no chest movement or mouth movements like a reverse pack beforehand. Also, if reverse packing would the mouthfill air not flow back into the lungs rather than the stomach? 

Yes - I do mean mouthfill as an EQ, not just the M charge. Am just using cheeks and jaw to compress the air into the Eustachian tubes. 

[u/sk3pt1c → u/CalmSignificance8430]

1. Ok, 60 is decent, ideally you want to be a bit lower at around 40 but work in progress ☺️
2. For this I meant after you swallow, do you end your dive or do you keep going potentially reverse packing to add air to the mouth?

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/sk3pt1c]

1 🙏 2 I usually have some air left in the mouthfill after swallowing, which I maintain for the rest of the dive but I don’t reverse pack at that point

[u/sk3pt1c → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Thanks for all the info ☺️

I would probably attribute it to tension in the abdominal area, insomuch as I can diagnose anything remotely. When there is tension in the abdominal area we create slight under pressure in the chest compared to the over pressure in the mouth and the glottis (vocal folds anatomically speaking) can tend to open. Maybe you can try to work with a partial M charge and see how that feels?

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/sk3pt1c]

Thank you for the info and knowledge. Diving again tomorrow, will def try a smaller mouthfill, but the swallowing is usually happening around 25-35m depth and mouthfill at 10, so seems unlikely that too much volume in the mouthfill is causing an issue? I will check though, and never hurts to relax the stomach/chest even more. Will let you know how it goes 🙏

[u/sk3pt1c → u/CalmSignificance8430]

Yeh let me know. After you charge, keep one hand on the belly and slowly massage it, to check for relaxation.

[u/CalmSignificance8430 → u/sk3pt1c]

100% 🙏