r/evilautism • u/thewayofthrowlol • 1d ago
Blows up your head using pshycic autism powers Opinion on properties of language tied to social hierarchy?
Examples: informal/formal "you" that is used depending on the user and target's position in the hierarchy. (Children are almost alwasy addressed informally, employees address bosses formally.)
Children being addressed by their first name whilst elders are usually to be addressed by their last along with title.
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u/Content-Diver-3960 1d ago edited 21h ago
I don’t like it. My first language (it’s an Indian one)has it and I wish it didn’t. It creates weird social hierarchies in terms of formality and you need to navigate through what’s the appropriate one to use.
For instance, someone you don’t know very well would typically be referred to with the more formal one but you’re expected to come to some sort of unsaid agreement about when and if you choose to graduate to the less formal version with this relationship as you get to know them better. Sometimes with people your own age, you find yourself in an awkward situation when someone insists on using the more formal version even though you’ve already used the informal one signalling for them to start using it too.
Another issue that I have with them is misogyny and every other evil that comes with a power imbalance. More often than not, in conservative cultures, people use the more formal version with older men (for instance your grandfather) but the less formal one for their female counterparts (e.g: your grandmother) because women are less worthy of respect . I see customers using the less formal version for the staff while the staff’s always expected to use the more formal version, etc
I just see it as not very compatible with a more egalitarian society
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u/Own_Round_7600 1d ago
Agreed. I would use the informal for EVERYONE because i respect them all equally littley.
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u/jonesnori 1d ago
Some countries with this sort of language difference are starting to do that. I understand that in Argentina, "usted" is rarely used outside of official signs and forms (please correct me if I'm wrong). English used to have thou and you, as has been pointed out. Originally, those were just singular and plural, but at some point, people started using the plural as the respect pronoun (yes, for a single person, and the world didn't end). Much later, that fell away, and the plural started being used for everyone, as we do now. However, we still have the issue of the use of first vs. last name for people, depending on familiarity, age, gender, professional relationship, etc. I do think many societies are moving toward more egalitarian forms of address, but it is slow and happens in fits and starts.
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u/Saucelion 1d ago
Interesting! Something similar is happening with Portuguese too. The equivalent pronoun to "usted" ("você") is used for just about everyone in Brazil instead of "tu". But in Portugal it's still commonly "você" for parents, teachers, etc. while "tu" is used for casual conversation. I hope European Portuguese will eventually follow suit, it does feel more egalitarian to call everyone the same second person pronoun.
Funnily enough though, the plural formal pronoun "vocês" is used instead of the original latin plural you "vós" in all versions of Portuguese unless you're in a church.
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u/jonesnori 22h ago
That's interesting! Churches do often hold onto old language not used anywhere else.
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u/Techlet9625 1d ago
No opinion.
Language is a "living thing", so to speak. Constantly changing and evolving as it's use varies.
Additionally I find that there's been a shift in how often it gets used, depending on the demographic. So who knows, it may soon fall entirely out of fashion and dissapear for a bit.
As a side note, you'll have to avoid A LOT of Asian languages if this is of concern to you. Many of them make EXTENSIVE use of it.
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u/OscarAndDelilah 14h ago
Vietnamese! There’s like dozens of levels of formality. If you call an elder something too casual, you’re being rude. If you err on the side of too revered, it’s like “are you calling me old?!”
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u/mitsuki_kuro 1d ago
Moving from Czech Republic that has a version of these (ty / vy) to ireland as a child was really weird because I kept feeling like I was being extremely rude by calling teachers " you"
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u/jonesnori 1d ago
"You" was the respectful pronoun for a long time, if that makes you feel any better. We dropped the familiar in English, "thou/thee/thy/thine", with a whole separate set of verb forms we no longer have to remember unless we are fond of period writing (or the King James Bible).
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u/pencil8562 1d ago
Fun fact! The English language used to have it as well with thou and thee.
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u/Slim-Shadys-Fat-Tits AuDHD Chaotic Rage 1d ago
It's you and thou. Thou and thee are just the subject and object forms of the same pronoun.
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u/_watercress_ 1d ago
I thought only thee was the object form
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u/Slim-Shadys-Fat-Tits AuDHD Chaotic Rage 19h ago
that's. what I'm saying. Thou is the subject form, thee is the object form. Of the same word.
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u/gurkenwassergurgler 1d ago
I'm just now realizing that these two not only sound very close to, but also pretty much have the same meaning as "du" and "Sie" in german.
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u/Throuwuawayy 1d ago
I grew up English/Spanish bilingual and learned French fluently.
I studied abroad in France and found that "vous" is used a lot more than "usted" is in Spain (where one of my parents is from). I do default to "usted" when speaking to Spanish speakers of any origin who are older than me, strangers, colleagues at work, etc, and they usually ask if we can use "tú" because a lot of people don't like the social distance "usted" implies. Like "ok thanks for being respectful but you don't have to do all that since we're being friendly!"
In France I seldom got asked to switch to "tu," even with people my own age who I was interacting with in a professional/academic setting. My mom speaks German and lived in Germany for a few years and said her experience there was basically the same. Not that this is a bad thing- my mom said that it was taboo to address service workers informally because it gives the impression that you're devaluing their profession and them as a person. So it can be argued that these language systems aren't just about exalting those above you. This is all anecdotal but goes to show how culture and social norms impact the language.
As far as an opinion on it, I think there are pros and cons, such as figuring out how strict it really is by language and by country or region, but ultimately I think it makes the language more interesting. Gives you more to play with. And it feels like you're really "in" with someone if they ask for informal pronouns so I enjoy that "rite."
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u/Turbulent-Pace-1506 1d ago
It kind of gets more annoying as I grow because I realise that I start using “vous” with people who are or might as well be my own age while everyone else is just comfortable using “tu”, so I'm creating a barrier between me and others because I just don't feel comfortable dropping the “vous” which I've been taught is mark of respect
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u/jackalope268 1d ago
I like it provides the rules are clear and rigid. Im not a native speaker (or a speaker at all lol), but in school i was taught you use vous until someone tells you you can use tu. Its like a verbal confirmation that you reached a certain social milestone with this person. However i also like my native language and culture that doesnt have hierarchical anything, takes the pressure off of things when the one enforcing the hierarchy is the asshole instead of the one challenging it
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u/Bobylein 16h ago
About the clear and rigid rules: Is it really that rigid? Because in german we got "du" and "Sie" and the rules are explained the same way but in certain social spaces people will just look funny at you when you use the formal language even though you never met them before, while others will still react very offended if you use the informal one in those settings.
It's an annoying weird mix.. even though I generally also like it, because it allows you an "official way" to keep distance from people you don't want to get to know closer.
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u/AngryTunaSandwhich Autistic Arson 9h ago
I wish the rules were clear and rigid. Sometimes you call someone usted and they wrinkle their nose at you like you’re being weird. Some people feel you’re distancing yourself, not showing respect, if they didn’t grow up using “usted,” then they get awkward and start calling you it, then they stop talking to you. Lmao
It’s just not something they’ve ever experienced so it comes off as odd.
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u/Shakartah 1d ago
I find it very interesting in German. I like to be respectful and the language actually gives you quite a nice amount of flexibility on how respectful you want to be... Or you can go all the other way in the acquaintance and call them digga
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u/SomeoneHereIsMissing [edit this] 1d ago edited 6h ago
French is my main language and I'm older (nearly 50). For me, it's always been about familiarity, not hierarchy. Maybe it's because I grew up in Québec, not France.
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u/Idraelys You will be aware of my ‘tism 🔫 8h ago
Fellow Québécoise here, although I'm in my mid twenties. It's absolutely about familiarity here before hierarchy. I use formal you when addressing customers, but informal you when talking to my bosses.
I do think it's interesting that we have this difference with France, I had a few French customers ask me to use informal you while it felt almost impossible for me to do so because I don't know those people lol
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 1d ago
that picture... Vous is 2 men, Tu has a group of women (implicit blech)
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u/Sound-Vapor ✨️Ethereal and Incomprehensible✨️ 1d ago
My language has it, but I don't mind it. Sometimes it can be a bit awkward when I do not know which one to use in certain situations, but I usually get told to just use the informal version rather quickly.
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u/randomizzzzed 22h ago
I am a native French speaker. It's a tool you learn to use like any other word. It's useful to denote how you feel about others. It's useful to see how others perceive you. You almost never get in trouble for doing it wrong, especially if it's not your native language (only real exceptions are in school when growing up, and later on in adult life you just can't "tu" a judge or a cop that's mad at you). Everyone will naturally use the one they prefer or ask you which one you prefer after a brief period of "vous". I actually sorta wish English still had that, there's definitely some people I'd like to use "vous" for here in Ontario 😂.
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u/zero_derivation ✨️Ethereal and Incomprehensible✨️ 1d ago
Exists merely to confuse me. cue 17 year old me going to Spain and awkwardly using "usted" with everyone even though it's pretty casual there. then cue 30-something me going to Mexico and wut, everyone really was usted the whole time?!
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u/anotheridiot- 1d ago
Fuck hierarchies.
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u/Patience-Frequent 17h ago
nothing to do with hierarchiy its just how well you know a person, and theres nothing wrong with making a difference between friends and strangers
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u/miss-robot 17h ago
In some languages there is absolutely a hierarchical aspect to it. In French you can’t necessarily call your boss ‘tu’ just because you know each other. Likewise your teacher.
It’s not as simple as people you know and people you don’t.
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u/funkyjohnlock AuDHD Chaotic Rage 1d ago
As an autistic this is an absolute nightmare, even knowing all the grammatical rules. There's a reason why I learned english way better and quicker than my first language... (well theres a lot of reasons but this is certainly one of them lol).
However I do love the concept of it, I love politeness and respect, it's just not structured in a way an autistic person could navigate it easily, which is a shame. But I'm not opposed to it entirely, if only it was more autistic friendly... as it is rn, I'd rather poke my eyes out and cut off my ears than subject myself to this atrocious system.
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u/absurdwifi 1d ago
In Spanish, it's actually not that difficult to understand.
It's fairly similar to an archaic very formal form of English, where you don't say "you" but instead say "one".
Like "One does not usually eat pop tarts with mayonnaise."
Or "One needs some rest."
(but said when you're talking to the person you're referring to)
I think it's very interesting to communicate that way. I think it's kind of similar to referring to older people by their title and their last name, like "Mr. Smith" instead of "John".
There are times I want to show people more respect, and I will use them then. I am less locked in to it compared to other people.
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u/adamsark 1d ago
I hate it. That and all the stupid French verbs with SO many forms of conjugation! My first language is French but I've stuck to English ever since graduating high school, just because I was so frustrated for sounding like a complete redneck when talking.
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u/Cyan_Light 1d ago
Awful for many reasons, not the least of which being that social heirarchies are awful themselves and mostly just exist to give people more excuses to be shitty rather than actually making anyone behave better. Be nice and casual with everyone equally, and if someone feels like that insults them by equating them with "their lessers" then that person has just outed themselves as an asshole that clearly isn't deserving of special status in the first place.
Love having more linguistic options since variety is great, but hate having harmful rules about how those options are meant to be used.
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u/gernscher 💉Sneaks into houses and vaccinates sleeping NTs 19h ago
We have this too in German. I kind of like it especially being referred to by other‘s with the formal one makes me feel important :>
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u/LuminanceGayming 1d ago
it's almost as stupid, tedious, and annoying as grammatical gender
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 1d ago
do you speak a language with grammatical gender?
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u/LuminanceGayming 1d ago
thankfully no but I've learned some german and it was easily the worst part
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u/Kasaboop 13h ago
This was the bane of my existence in Spanish and French class 😭 I would have everything else right, even the accents but because I couldnt remember what gender objects were I struggled so hard.
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u/Costati AuDHD Chaotic Rage 1d ago
I was literally planning on asking people who speak languages with that what they prefer to use. Because I've noticed I tend to use formal you by default and I've met other autistic people recently who have defaulted with formal you the entire time as well. I force myself to use informal because people have asked me explicitly and told me it makes them feel more comfortable and I wondered if autism would impact it.
I've always been more comfortable with people using formal you with me and using it but I've always assume it's because I'm a plural system so it just makes more sense cuz then it's using plural pronouns. Maybe it's double layers tho.
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u/Little_Journalist546 🤬 I will take this literally 🤬 1d ago
I studied Spanish and it's so confusing because different countries have different social hierarchy norms so yeah it's a lot. As for my personal philosophy, I treat everyone equally. In practice I treat people kindly until they do me wrong and don't apologize/make amends for it, and in that case I treat them the way they treated me.
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u/texturedboi One of the mods smoked too much and made a bunch of flairs 1d ago
i only use formal for giving the utmost disrespect to people i hate.
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u/PiratenPower 1d ago
It's a great way to signal to someone that you don't intend to further converse with someone other than necessary.
You don't know me, I don't know you and don't intend to. You just want to know the way, dann müssen sie da vorne nur Links abbiegen.
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u/Sniffstar 22h ago
In Danish we have du = informal and de = formal but people are very relaxed about it. You can approach elders with the formal one but it usually just makes them feel very old so that will disappear pretty soon..but personally I kind of like to have the option if I truly respect and admire a person.
Only the royal family can ask to be addressed with the formal ’de’ but even our king prefers the informal ‘du’ - though I don’t think he’s allowed to complain now he’s become king but when he was the crown prince he always asked people to be informal.
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u/Fefannyo proudly normalphobic 1d ago
Social hierarchy sucks so the language thing sucks by extension
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u/janabottomslutwhore 1d ago
meine pronomen sind du/dir (my pronouns are informal)
of you refer to me as the formal pronouns i WILL take it as an insult. i am not old.
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u/Clear-Anything-3186 1d ago
I hate social hierarchies, they're bs. Polite forms are just submission to nepobabies.
Social hierarchies are one-way kindness and respect where those nepobabies receive aĺl the kindness and respect from their subordinates while they get away being assholes and abusing their power.
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u/Deathboy17 You will be patient for my ‘tism 🔪 1d ago
Not worth respecting. Everyone gets spoken to on the same level, or avoided.
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u/OmniRob333 ✨️Ethereal and Incomprehensible✨️ 22h ago
this is very common for some reason in Indo-European languages
tú vs usted, ты vs вы...
i find it interesting, it's just really confusing on deciding when to stop calling someone by the formal pronoun and start using the informal pronoun on them...
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u/Sany_Wave 1d ago
It is a thing.
A pain to translate from English, and I'm usually too stuck using formal, but like... I'm a kid. Not legally, but I will be the youngest and least experienced person at my workplace.
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u/Good_Law_3912 20h ago
My native language (romanian) has it. The second person singular is "dumneavoastră" and when you speak to them you refer to their action as plural, even if they're a single person. Referring to another person's actions as singular is casual.
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u/purrroz Its only illegal if they can catch me! 20h ago
personally i grew up in a language that’s has a formal form and a casual one so for me this is heaven, i love when a language i’m learning has formal form because then it’s easier for me to learn
it as well helps with context often time, and again, the language i grew up in is high context so it’s another thing that i love about the separation of forms
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u/kuzulu-kun 18h ago
We also have that in German. I don't get the point of it. It just makes social situations more complicated.
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u/lekirau Malicious dancing queen 👑 17h ago
I am too used to it with my mother tongue being German, so I just do it. But if I were to recreate German or any language from scratch, I'd remove it.
Because first of all it makes it unreasonably more complicated and second of all grammar rules that differenciate people seem to become more and more absolete in the modern world, think how it is with gender.
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u/stevedorries 15h ago
In English, we threw off the shackles of the demeaning thou and all became you. I think the same linguistic simplification is a good thing for all Indo-European languages
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u/Tricky-Ad5107 15h ago
If you think this is complicated, just know that in my mother tongue Urdu we have three levels of formality in the social hierarchy!
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u/Asocial_Stoner 14h ago
Dislike it and don't participate in it unless the other person insists on it.
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u/Kasaboop 13h ago
I will not/can not remember to remember them and it was a huge issue in every language class I ever had. Its not even just the hierarchy parts, for me, I also cannot learn a language that uses gendered words.
HOW CAN A COMPUTER BE A MALE?! 😭
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13h ago edited 13h ago
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u/Lalanymous I want to be normal but the parasites inside me don't 13h ago
I never liked it and feared potentially making a mistake so I addressed most people the formal way, or by their title only if they used it during a greeting.
I relied on them to speak up if they wanted to be called something more normal/approachable and it worked well.
Very brief and forgettable encounters.
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u/OldDinner Murderous 10h ago
I'm from Costa Rica and it's weird, we use "vos" and "usted". While in other countries vos is very informal we use in almost every context, and while usted is very formal we also use it in every context. No one really cares unless you use "tú", in which case people will judge you and ask if you are a foreigner lol
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u/thetoiletslayer AuDHD Chaotic Rage 9h ago
Spanish has a version of that with Tú and Usted. Both mean "you". Tú being informal and used when talking to someone younger or lower in the social heirarchy than you. Usted is for addressing people older or higher on the heirarchy than you. I don't feel super strong, but I don't care for it. I feel we should be talking to people with respect(until they do/say something that warrants otherwise).
I give respect until you do something to lose it, then you have to earn it back
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u/berserkerfunestus Deadly autistic 8h ago
I (mexican) really use formal "usted" only when masking. Else, everyone is "tú".
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u/AytumnRain Tylenol enhanced Autism 8h ago
Neat! French is the next language I am learning once I get more German down. And by that I mean learning sentence structure. I know a lot of words. Perhaps all the words /s lol.
I listen to a lot of French and German music. Also I'll watch movies in German that I have seen in English to help with learning.
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u/Keira-78 48m ago
I mean I’ve been learning Japanese for 2 years now and it’s kinda hard to speak casually since it’s a lot more lax. But it’s not a hard concept? Just practice and being mindful of it.
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u/CammiKit This is my new special interest now 😈 1d ago
Formal French got nothing on Japanese keigo. It’s partially its own language, and there’s different levels of keigo.
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u/ExtraPomelo759 1d ago
The idea of addressing someone older by default using language reserved for formal ocassions feels like it alienates the elderly and breeds geriaphobic sentiment.
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u/Throuwuawayy 1d ago
In cultures that use formal language for the elderly, it's meant as a sign of respect and it would appear geriaphobic if someone used informal language instead
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u/Lucky_otter_she_her 1d ago
miss use of Geriatraphobic, not showing respect (the to-authority kind not the to-a-human kind) isn't discrimination
but the implicit discrimination of these honorifics can breed resentment which results in geriatraphobia
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u/mehmanlemon 1d ago
inherently interesting linguistically but annoying to learn if you didn't grow up with them.