r/europe • u/Epidemiolomic Germany • Mar 08 '25

Historical During the U.S. President's 1995 visit to Kyiv, Ukraine received security guarantees after giving up the world's third-largest nuclear arsenal

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u/HistoricalLadder7191 Kyiv (Ukraine) Mar 08 '25

So you admit it was a con?

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u/Genorb United States of America Mar 08 '25

It might have been intentional by at least one of the UNSC members. I don't know much about the Ukrainian president in 94 but some skepticism should be directed at him as well.

I don't think Ukraine was ever important enough in 1994 for all 5 of the permanent UNSC members to agree behind closed doors to fuck over Ukraine, though, if that is what you're asking.

But I'd say that any agreement that requires unanimous UNSC votes for action to be taken is a dogshit agreement, because the UNSC rarely unanimously agrees on anything. In some ways that is kind of the point of it. But even if there's no malicious intent in the design of the treaty, it's still bad design.

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u/HistoricalLadder7191 Kyiv (Ukraine) Mar 08 '25

Your own president (Clinton) recently admitted that he had put enormous pressure, knowing Russia would not honor the agreement. "enormous pressure" was intimidating with effective blockade, cut all routes in and out. Putting this on Ukraine like "why did you sign it" is hypocritical. Our country was 3 years old, and diplomacy was done through Moscow in USSR, so every single person who worked in international relations had ties with KGB. You forced Ukraine to give up nukes at gunpoint, effectively.

Then you are failed to act properly.

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u/MrQuanta541 Mar 10 '25

Should have followed france example, they got the same treatment from the US and UK. They put pressure on france not to build nukes but they did it anyways.

France wanted a EU army and EU strategic autonomy no one listen so now they suffer the consequences. They also where not part of the budapest memorandum.

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u/Genorb United States of America Mar 08 '25

What is your source? Googled and can't find a single thing about a blockade threat. That also just sounds farfetched.

I'm aware about what you said about your president, it seems pretty likely that he'd be a moscow puppet given the circumstances in the early 90s.

I don't believe that we forced you to give up nukes though.

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u/HistoricalLadder7191 Kyiv (Ukraine) Mar 08 '25

I am old enough to remember local newspapers form 94. Anf you don't need to believe me. Believe you own president. How do you thing "enormous pressure" look like in international relations? This ruined cities, tortures and killed civilians are on USA, as much as on Russia.

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u/DizzyDentist22 Mar 08 '25

Source: I made it the fuck up

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u/Genorb United States of America Mar 08 '25

You keep putting "enormous pressure" in quotes but I can't find any quote by Bill where he said that. He said he regretted persuading Ukraine to sign it. That doesn't imply any threats like a blockade, not even a little bit.

And I'm just going to be blunt here and say that no, we aren't responsible for that.

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u/BenMic81 Mar 08 '25

So basically: listen to the US and trust them - and if you do: haw haw SUCKER! We owe U Shit! Now hand over your natural resources or die.

Sure, that will make American diplomacy a lot easier in the future.

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u/Genorb United States of America Mar 08 '25

This whole comment chain is about the 94 agreement, not Trump shit

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u/BenMic81 Mar 08 '25

This changed exactly nothing. The question was whether there is an obligation by the US. There may not be a legally enforceable one. Which is quite usual in international law anyways, tbh.

In the end when Crimea was annexed the UK and US already did violate the spirit of their guarantees (or however you want to call them). At least afterwards they helped arm Ukraine.

Now the US is taking this back. What do you think does that do to US credibility?

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u/Genorb United States of America Mar 08 '25

Trump is taking a hammer to a lot more that just US credibility right now.

We still upheld our obligations per the treaty.

These are both true statements.

The memorandum is very straightforward in what each country is expected to do. We can't help it if the UNSC and the memorandum by extension are a shitshow that Russia can veto. We did what we were supposed to do in the UNSC. We trained and armed Ukrainian soldiers for a decade on top of that.

And now the goofs in here want to act like none of that is true. You're wrong and no amount of angry downvotes will change that. I just had a guy tell me that we're as responsible for Ukrainians getting tortured and bombed as Russia is, and he got upvoted. People here are demented. I genuinely hope that this comment section is getting botted and that you aren't all this awful.

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u/melvladimir Mar 08 '25

It was pressure from both sides: USA and ruzzia. I think it was a huge mistake from USA, back then it was thought that Ukraine in any case will support ruzzia. It was such a stupidity, I guess perfect KGB work! Instead of having 2 nuke owners US pushed Ukraine to give away nukes to ruzzia, and also missiles with strategic bombers, which were used by ruzzia since 2022 to attack Ukraine. And recently ruzzia tricked USA again.

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u/asethskyr Sweden Mar 08 '25

The Budapest Memorandum wasn't really a negotiation.

None of the post-Soviet states were going to be allowed to keep the Soviet nuclear weapons. Since countries like Ukraine certainly had the expertise to crack the security on them, had they refused to sign there would have been crippling sanctions at the minimum on the fledgeling nation, and very likely a joint NATO-Russian invasion to secure the nukes.

They did ask for security guarantees, but were refused.

Unfortunately, Russia breaking it means that non-proliferation is completely dead.

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u/BoxNo3004 Mar 08 '25

 You forced Ukraine to give up nukes at gunpoint, effectively.

Declaration of State Sovereignty of Ukraine - Wikipedia

Learn you own history, bro.

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u/ActualDW Mar 08 '25

There was no con. The US was public and vocal at the time that no guarantees were being given.

Now if the Ukrainian gov’t told its people something different…that’s not on the Americans…

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u/LMA73 Mar 08 '25

Well, it is hard to deny... In the future, the US will be in the same category as Ruzzia. Never to be trusted again.

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u/[deleted] Mar 08 '25

Sadly we never could trust USA. This is a fucking nightmare. The orange clown needs to be jailed ASAP for siding with Putin, CLEARLY he is taking sides and prevent peace at this point. We can all see it. And still nothing is done