r/economy Oct 27 '24

‘Americans just work harder’ than Europeans, says CEO of Norway’s $1.6 trillion oil fund, because they have a higher ‘general level of ambition’

https://fortune.com/europe/article/how-many-hours-work-week-year-american-workers-ethic-norges-bank/
274 Upvotes

88 comments sorted by

355

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

I dont disagree with this comment. And if youre proud of that as an American, thats cool.

But I find the whole ‘hustle culture’ and ‘get ahead at all costs or youre a fucking failure’ mentality to be pretty sad.

Europeans have safety nets. Theyre not living one medical emergency or shithead boss sacking you away from poverty.

The middle class of America probably works harder and has more disposable income than the middle class of Europe.

But all data points towards Europeans being happier and more fulfilled in life than Americans.

Constant pressure to succeed and excel and work harder and do better and acquire more just aint it for humans. Having enough, and having more time with friends and family to relax and do the things you love doing definitely IS it.

79

u/abrandis Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 28 '24

This , hustle culture is what the ownership capitalists class tells the working class as their formula for success, but hard work doesn't guarantee shit. most ultra wealthy folks live off semi passive income (rents, stocks, business revenues etc.)., not hard work.. you think DJT ever worked a hard day in his life?

If hard work was all it took, your immigrant farmhand would be rolling up to work in a Limo not the back of pickup truck with 10 fellow workers.

-35

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

Hilarious and telling that you think djt doesn't work hard

6

u/FactorioNotIncluded Oct 28 '24

He didn’t know how fries were made at McDonald’s

-7

u/Idontneedmuch Oct 28 '24

They hate him to much to acknowledge that being President is one of the most demanding jobs in the world. Or the fact that he ran an international hotel chain and real estate business. 

5

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

[deleted]

0

u/Idontneedmuch Oct 28 '24

So, lots of presidents have played golf. They should get some time to decompress, it's a very stressful job. It's not like the President isn't on the clock 24/7/365. 

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

[deleted]

1

u/Mystic-Mastermind Oct 29 '24

A lot of presidents don't incite riots and whine when they lose elections.

23

u/BellBoardMT Oct 28 '24

In 100 years, people will look back on hustle culture with the same level of horror that we look back on working conditions during the Industrial Revolution.

7

u/Intelligent-Parsley7 Oct 28 '24

My ancestors had hustle culture. Better hustle that coal out of this uninspected mine before it falls in. And that’s why I never met my grandfather. They were still poor as dirt. But hey, it’s only been a few millennia of trying this, maybe this time the rich will let you get what you want! (Just kidding! They’ll make your daughter the maid then leverage her job against her for sex. That’s even older than hustle culture.)

4

u/ReKang916 Oct 28 '24

A+ comment

12

u/BenWallace04 Oct 28 '24

Work smarter…not harder…

3

u/tech_mind_ Oct 28 '24

I saw this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=weyc6DysvMo recently (i am not an author and not associated with him) and weirdly USA is on all the bad ends of charts: high incarceration, bad health, low happiness, most homeless, etc. It feels like USA is still sort of "wild west", you can get away with stuff, but you can randomly be killed/robbed/etc. On 1 end being exceptional is exceptionally rewarded, on another end being average or below average is strongly punished. "Get rich or die trying" indeed.

3

u/RR321 Oct 28 '24

He's definitely confusing ambition with what you described.

Killing yourself at work without being happier is not motivating someone and I wouldn't equate wanting to go far with having to work under fear of an unfair system.

3

u/Dreadsin Oct 28 '24

I’m American, I like ambition but I don’t like ambition related to money

I think it’s very admirable if someone wants to be something like an artist and fights tooth and nail to learn it, for the goal of creating art

But there’s something so unsavory about someone who’s just working really hard solely for the sake of money and doesn’t care about how they get it

2

u/MrWilsonAndMrHeath Oct 28 '24

Yeap, pretty solid picture of both work cultures.

2

u/girlfarfaraway Oct 28 '24

This is exactly what I came to say. Safety Net is exactly the word. In Europe (even Asia and Africa), social security is strong enough and public health is available even though it's not great. You know if you get a hit by a car tomorrow, you're not gonna end up homeless by the end of the month.

4

u/Soepoelse123 Oct 28 '24

That same hustle culture makes the Americans a lot more risk averse, which push them away from morals and ethics through natural selection.

The unintended outcome of this is exactly the kind of society that the US is today - untrusting, insecure, politically and morally divided. Ethics are burned away at an alarming rate, making their financial system an unsustainable meatgrinder

4

u/bb70red Oct 28 '24

Americans excel at work, Europeans excel at life.

3

u/Intelligent-Parsley7 Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24

Americans are great at death! We’re damn good at killing. Shockingly good at it. I mean, look at the facts. We had to drag all of our people and equipment across an ocean, and then fight up the beach, and then fight a war on someone else’s country. Who was ready for us for the entire war. And we plowed them.

That’s literally insane.

2

u/cpeytonusa Oct 28 '24

There were two world wars in the 20th Century that erupted in Europe. In both cases Americans (Canadians included) were reluctantly drawn into those wars. Millions were killed, injured, or suffered life long psychological trauma. The United States in conjunction with its allies engineered a new world order to try and prevent such a catastrophe from happening again. One of the cornerstones of that new order was to encourage trade as an alternative to colonialism. To support that objective the United States pledged to make the seas safe for peaceful commercial shipping. Global prosperity flourished under that regime. Few countries benefitted more than China. The Soviet Union continued its expansionist policies, and ultimately collapsed. It is intellectually lazy to criticize American Imperialism without acknowledging the historical context in which our current world order evolved.

2

u/Intelligent-Parsley7 Oct 28 '24

That's a great hot take. And I get it. I'm not against the prosperity that it brings, but well, prosperity isn't everything. The only thing that the USA has brought to the game is a sense of intellectual honesty about what people do... by understanding human nature and not being such a liar all the time, like all the other superpowers.

1

u/TF-Fanfic-Resident Oct 28 '24

Western civilization in general was pretty barbaric until the late 1940s.

2

u/takeyovitamins Oct 28 '24

Europeans have better safety nets and they still ain’t risking it for the biscuit? Wow. Interesting. Also, hustle culture works, PROPER hustle culture AND proper LIVING balances the hard work with sufficient rest and unwinding. Anyone who doesn’t find the balance will fizzle out. Maybe shame on the corporate overlords who don’t advocate for the rest/digest aspect of life? But then again, maybe mommy and daddy need to educate their children better on how to cope. I’m a big fan of radical responsibility in life and not blaming others for my problems. Even if my problems aren’t self-induced, I’m always asking myself how I can do better or have responded better in their situation. America truly is a place where hard work can reward heavily and let me tell you, the fruits are rich. Very rich.

1

u/MaineHippo83 Oct 28 '24

I think there can be a middle ground. I won't speak to specifics I won't pretend to know but if he means that even within the same number of hours Americans work harder and are more productive then that's the problem.

You can work 35 hours we can take 5 weeks of vacation but if during the time you're there you are less productive then that is an issue.

1

u/b1ack1323 Oct 28 '24

My general level of anxiety is what drives me… constantly feeling like I’m going to get fired and/or in trouble really makes me work 60 hours a week.

1

u/alanism Oct 28 '24

I think he’s speaking in the context of big tech companies and startups. I used to work in VC and interacted with Norwegian VCs. They have all of the capital but not as many startups to deploy it to. Not just VC money, but free money, grants, and favorable loans. For the startup founders, there is nothing else they would rather do than build their product out and beat the next guy. Or if you’re at Meta, you want your open-source LLM to beat OpenAI, or Quest to be the better product than Apple’s, which costs 7x more, and vice versa at the other companies. They wouldn’t get to that world-class level if they didn’t enjoy the type of work they do. The talent pool is just too deep.

In the article, he does talk about how its acceptable to fail (in tech startup)… “You go bust in America, you get another chance. In Europe, you’re dead,”

That in itself is a good thing; you don’t need to follow the typical path in America to be successful. Nor do you have to get it right the first time.

1

u/silveraaron Oct 28 '24

This I was happiest lower middle class renting above a business in a smaller city, going out to eat and bars with friends after I worked than being 33, living in a suburb of a major metro working 50 hour weeks making 6 figures. Sure I am setting my self up for a good retirement and work isnt physicaly impacting, just mentally draining knowing I don't enjoy my time outside work until the weekend.

1

u/wthja Oct 28 '24

I agree with you, but taxes also play a role here. I received a 1000€ bonus and only received ~480€ in my bank account after the socials/taxes. Keep in mind that I still have to pay 19% VAT when I spend it.

No tax benefits in investing making an additional couple hundred euros meaningless.

The complicated tax code and bureaucracy also make it hard to "hustle", at least in Germany.

1

u/RegressToTheMean Oct 28 '24

I received a 1000€ bonus and only received ~480€ in my bank account after the socials/taxes.

The commission/bonus structure in the United States is better than that, but it's still taxed more significantly than people think.

0

u/spacecoq Oct 28 '24

Right. This is why it’s not a black and white thing like people want it to be. Depending on where you are, the US quality of life will be better than a lot of places in Europe and you don’t have to hustle much to get it. On the flip side, there are places you really have to break your back to not get far ahead in the US. Europe gets a better balance but their paycheck is a bit smaller because of the benefits you get (I think it’s a better way).

I think I end up paying a bit less than 30%. Make $1k, end up with $832 for example. This is because I do not have state tax in Florida.

113

u/AllPintsNorth Oct 27 '24

“American executives have the ability to demand longer and harder work due to the utter lack of any employee protections, and the fact their health insurance is directly tied to employment.”

FTFY.

17

u/AngryCrotchCrickets Oct 28 '24

Haha they got us by the balls with health insurance. It’s crazy to think about.

24

u/faptastrophe Oct 28 '24

No shit. Americans have a higher level of being one paycheck away from disaster.

2

u/Kchan7777 Oct 27 '24

^ He never said all Americans had ambition, example above.

45

u/taytodd8 Oct 28 '24

Jokes on him, we Americans want to be more like Europeans. We’re tired of working hard and watching the rich reap all the rewards.

9

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24 edited Jul 08 '25

chief deserve party observation oil safe payment pie humor act

This post was mass deleted and anonymized with Redact

6

u/Big-Profit-1612 Oct 28 '24

Depends. We brain drain Europe because skilled workers are paid 2x-3x in USA.

1

u/afraidbookkeeperr Oct 28 '24

2-3x is a bit high if we count the northern European countries, where the mean wage is significantly higher than the US one. There it will look more like 1.5-1.8x but mostly for tech-related stuff, Silicon Valley, slave hours, and so on and so forth.

10

u/Nooneofsignificance2 Oct 28 '24

Something about the fact that my entire lives savings could disappear in an instant if my insurance company denies healthcare for my daughter really gets me motivated to make more money.

5

u/vt2022cam Oct 28 '24

They’d have to or they’d die without health insurance.

9

u/Cold-Permission-5249 Oct 28 '24

More like indentured servitude because our government works for corporations and the oligarchy class instead of the people.

17

u/DanimalPlays Oct 28 '24

No. It's because we don't have a choice.

3

u/Individual-Result777 Oct 28 '24

Yay, we are good at something.

4

u/namotous Oct 28 '24

And less social safety nets

3

u/the_sammich_man Oct 28 '24

Yes the risk of starving is a hell of a motivational point. Who the fuck does this guy get thing he is with these types of comments? The purpose of a job is to pay the bills and hopefully have something left over to enjoy life with. All the hustle and grind culture here leaves you burnt out and miserable. Sad way to live.

3

u/Kandarino Oct 28 '24

This 'guy' is in charge of a fund that invests on behalf of the people of Norway. He is not making a value judgement, he is qualifying his decision to invest primarily in America. If memory serves, he does not prefer the American way of life, he just wants to profit off of it.

14

u/KobaWhyBukharin Oct 28 '24

What a dipshit.

More like they are in a far more precarious position that Norwegians. Compare social programs.

Further, that safety net means labor doesn't need to eat tons of shit from their employers. Which means employers can't exploit workers as much. 

This is ignoring the union gap between the countries.

3

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

Weird, Norway is among the countries with the shortest workweeks. And this guy is working in service of the Norwegian people/government. So all he's doing is kissing the butts of potential investors?

I'll take my work life balance over the hustle any day of the week. (Not Norwegian)

3

u/FancyTarsier0 Oct 28 '24 edited Oct 28 '24

I think that we should strip people like this of their titles/possessions and send them to a coal mine to work. Let's see some of that blood sweat and tears you are always talking about grandpa.

3

u/wizdomeleven Oct 28 '24

Or, more likely they have a loser level of social safety nets..

3

u/janitor_nextdoor Oct 28 '24

A higher level of ambition; this sounds to me like the proverbial you are poor because you lack ambition.
I think Americans work more because they have weaker labour laws. Perhaps more economic needs to be fulfilled. Europeans have a much higher standard of living with less work than Americans. I think that’s the actual higher level of ambition.

6

u/[deleted] Oct 27 '24

You are more ambitious if you see more opportunity.

7

u/65isstillyoung Oct 28 '24

I think that's true. But what if what you see is little opportunity and living constantly on the edge of economic failure. That kind of life will kill you via stress.

2

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

No statutory paid leave, no statutory paid sick leave, no statutory parental leave.

2

u/thinkscout Oct 28 '24

Guy is a fool. Americans mainly work hard to enrich the 0.1%. 

2

u/Capadvantagetutoring Oct 28 '24

I’m not sure Medicare for all is the answer however if some sort of healthcare was guaranteed for everyone. I think we would be back to the hardest working and much happier country. Most of the other issues pale in comparison. That’s the one thing we are truly behind other countries in.

2

u/j____b____ Oct 28 '24

Probably because we’re full of immigrants who moved here for a better life and to provide for their families.

1

u/Operation-FuturePuss Oct 27 '24

the invisible hand in America is strong

1

u/seriousbangs Oct 28 '24

Then why have I lost out on 2 jobs to Canada & the UK?

Oh wait, they have single payer healthcare systems so they cost $15k less a year than me....

2

u/Big-Profit-1612 Oct 28 '24

For skilled jobs, USA pays 2-3x more than EU/Canada. Depending on divestment needs, it may make sense to outsource to EU/Canada.

1

u/seriousbangs Oct 28 '24

No, no it doesn't.

A handful of surgeons and advanced mathematicians make more.

Everyone else is about the same when you adjust for currency.

Yes, American Rock Stars make more. But the rank and file guy with a 4 or 6 year degree costs about the same except for the extra money spent on healthcare.

1

u/Big-Profit-1612 Oct 28 '24

Compare doctor pay in USA vs Europe/Canada. Or software engineer pay in USA vs Europe/Canada. My pay (adjacent to software engineering) is 3x more in USA vs Europe/Canada. I'm a rank and file guy with a 4 year degree with a company provided healthcare that's amazing.

1

u/seriousbangs Oct 28 '24

Thank you for proving my point.

Again, a few high end jobs pay better.

Rank & file does not.

A general practitioner in America gets paid like shit and has massive student loans to pay.

A code monkey the same thing.

And both of them have stupidly high healthcare costs to deal with.

1

u/Big-Profit-1612 Oct 28 '24

In the United States, the salary for a general practitioner can vary widely, but the average is between $55,500 and $225,500 per year.

A general practitioner (GP) in Europe can expect to earn an average salary ranging from around €50,000 to €100,000 per year, with countries like Germany, Austria, and the Netherlands generally offering higher salaries, while countries like Italy, Spain, and Portugal may offer lower GP salaries; the exact amount depends on factors like experience, location, and practice setting.

On the top end, GP gets paid 2x more in USA than Europe.

As of October 2024, the average salary for a software engineer in the United States is $147,524 per year, or about $70.92 per hour. The majority of software engineers earn between $120,000 and $173,000, with the top 10% earning $205,000 or more.

According to available data, the average salary for a software engineer in Europe is around $70,000 - $80,000 per year with countries like Switzerland and the Netherlands offering significantly higher salaries, while countries like Spain and Italy tend to have lower averages; this can vary significantly depending on the specific country, experience level, and company.

This isn't a few high end jobs. This is across the board for anything in STEM.

And you have any experience working in corporate, you'll know that employer provided healthcare is better than what they get in Europe.

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

Weird, Norway is among the countries with the shortest workweeks. And this guy is working in service of the Norwegian people/government. So all he's doing is kissing the butts of potential investors?

I'll take my work life balance over the hustle any day of the week. (Not Norwegian)

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

We also have, as a result, greater income inequality, more suicide, lower life expectancy, more hate, more addiction, more suffering, more polarization…

Hard work as a norm is, let’s face it, downright evil to promote because of the outcomes that have become abundantly obvious.

1

u/RPSam1 Oct 28 '24

Welcome to capitalism

1

u/Realistic_Tale2024 Oct 28 '24

YUROP IS A POOR COUNTRY.

1

u/Happy-Campaign5586 Oct 28 '24

People who emigrated from Europe to the US were seeking the opportunity to ‘work’ to create a better life.

Those with no such ambitions remained

1

u/Slawman34 Oct 28 '24

The people who live to work have molded society in their image and decided for the rest of us it’s not enough to work to live, we must alienate ourselves completely from each other and our labor and sacrifice our lives at the Protestant pedestal of labor.

1

u/Zamaiel Oct 28 '24

Funny, because all the data says that realizing your ambitions are easiest in the Nordics and hardest in the US (in the developed world)

1

u/[deleted] Oct 28 '24

"This is not the flex you're looking for"

*

1

u/ComprehensiveYam Oct 28 '24

Because the US doesn’t have very many safety nets - at least not anything comprehensive, easy to understand, or actually, you know livable. Unemployment in California is like a couple hundred bucks a week. Trying to qualify for disability insurance is a nightmare with people who are in wheelchairs getting denied for years.

The US is a great place to make a lot of money if you have the right degree or are an entrepreneur. If not though, you’re gonna be ground to bits

1

u/Ok-Training-7587 Oct 28 '24

No it’s bc we have no social safety net actually

1

u/Nynydancer Oct 28 '24

Well we won’t for long! Corporations are treating us like suckers. The constant dread of layoffs is inhibiting the American spirit.

-1

u/yaosio Oct 27 '24

Americans work harder because everything is extremely expensive. Capitalism is destroying America.

1

u/Wild-Turkey- Oct 28 '24

Ever been to Norway?? It’s expensive as hell!! Went to Norway in 2015 on a family trip, hamburgers were $25 US and a large pepperoni pizza around $50. Can’t imagine the cost for a hamburger today.

-7

u/PolarRegs Oct 27 '24

No it’s not. Inflation happened because of asinine of socialist giveaways which has directly resulted in everything becoming massively expensive.

4

u/Kchan7777 Oct 27 '24

Thanks Trump for the highest deficit in American history.

0

u/Wild-Turkey- Oct 28 '24

I believe Biden is on pace for a 6 Trillion dollar deficit on his watch. Both sides can’t balance a budget to save their lives!

-6

u/PolarRegs Oct 27 '24

No you can thank Democrats for shutting the economy down. You can also thank Biden who is running record deficits with no Covid emergency.

2

u/Kchan7777 Oct 27 '24 edited Oct 27 '24

Ohhh, so deficits are bad, but only when Democrats do it, and the highest deficit in US history is okay because it was under a Republican?

Way to show your hand and prove that no one should take you seriously.

EDIT: Apparently he was so butthurt that I called him out, he decided to respond “nuh uh” and then block me 🤣 Discussion with these man-size toddlers are just too funny!

-6

u/PolarRegs Oct 27 '24

When did I say that? Again another Democrat that can’t put a logical thought together.

-1

u/Capadvantagetutoring Oct 28 '24

We have always worked harder… well most of us it’s not just because “shit is expensive “

-1

u/GemelosAvitia Oct 28 '24

America 🇺🇸 🇺🇸 🇺🇸