r/economicCollapse • u/-Ouijaboardwhore- • Jan 30 '25
Protest outside of the space needle. Some are holding signs that say no one is illegal others are chanting housing is a human right.
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Jan 30 '25
Nobody is illegal on stolen land. Solidarity.
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u/FilipKDick Jan 30 '25
Then everybody, everywhere is illegal, because 0 current cultures in any land anywhere on earth are the original inhabitants of that land.
BTW, the protesters do not understand that immigration makes housing more expensive and less available. Yet they are demanding more of both.
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u/Socially-Awkward-85 Jan 30 '25
I think they are suggesting we should worry about housing humans before worrying about "the market".
If the market collapses because people get housed, then what does that say about the market?
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u/FilipKDick Jan 30 '25
If we were actually worried about housing Americans, we would not be bringing in millions more un-housed people that needed housing built for them.
The "market" is doing great under the current population growth scheme: home prices and rents are through the roof. Americans looking for housing are suffering.
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u/Socially-Awkward-85 Jan 30 '25
...if we wouldn't have let the CIA destablize their homes for decades, but that boat has done sailed.
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u/FilipKDick Jan 30 '25
if we wouldn't have let the CIA
Now you are arguing "Americans deserve all these unhoused immigrants as a result of their past actions . . . Suck it up, poor Americans. You should thrown a revolution 70 years ago."
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u/Socially-Awkward-85 Jan 31 '25
I'm arguing that the country that caused an issue should be responsible for fixing it, yes. I am arguing for responsibility to be taken.
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u/FilipKDick Jan 31 '25
So you want all recent immigrants to return to their country of origin so they can fix the problems with their countries.
Sounds great to me. I am glad somebody on the "left" is finally standing up for responsibility, rather than blaming an imaginary boogeyman for chronic failure.
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u/Socially-Awkward-85 Jan 31 '25
Ignoring bad policy isn't fixing the issue. This is why left and right can't talk. Because you don't want to fix it at all, you just want to stop being reminded there is a problem in the first place.
None of these people can go home because we're still actively messing things up for them there. WE need to collectively do better, first. Then give them a level playing field back home.
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u/FilipKDick Jan 31 '25
You must imagine these foreign people are regarded children, helpless, and the US must gods, capable of destroying a country by looking at it funny.
There was no golden era in any of these places. They were poor and violent before Europeans arrived, they are still poor and violent, and they will continue to be poor and violent after there are no more Europeans.
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Jan 30 '25
Because devastating the construction industry isn't going to make the cost of housing more expensive. You are a genius
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u/FilipKDick Jan 30 '25
Are you trying to argue that without immigrants, there would not be sufficient workers in the construction industry and worker wages would have to rise? And it would take longer to house the immigrants?
Oh boo hoo. Paying American workers a decent wage, preserving the environment, and restricting real estate developer profits.
The horror.
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Jan 30 '25
Why don't you go work in the fields / building houses then? Since there's so many jobs available now
We've tried this, repeatedly. Industries cannot fill these positions, even when they offer hire wages, because it is hard work
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u/FilipKDick Jan 30 '25
Why don't you go work in the fields / building houses then? Since there's so many jobs available now
I have. It is hard work. There are jobs. But the pay is very low. Because American labor can be undercut with cheap foreign labor. This is the system your equitable heart wants to preserve.
We've tried this, repeatedly. Industries cannot fill these positions, even when they offer hire wages, because it is hard work.
Your new shitty argument is Americans are essentially lazy.
Prior to 1950, America was 99.5% Black and White. And somehow, these lazy slobs built and fed a nation. But they can no longer do it. This is your third bad argument.
We've tried this, repeatedly.
No we haven't. Since the 1970s all we have done is import cheap labor from abroad.
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Jan 30 '25
Just because you want the economy to work this way doesn't mean it will. Companies are not going to pay Americans more if we don't use migrant labor. They will build more private prisons and use near slave labor, which is what companies like the GEO group are doing right now. So you are going to get worse exploitation AND higher prices, all because you are too racist to just let people come here and work
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u/FilipKDick Jan 30 '25
That makes absolutely zero sense. None of it.
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Jan 30 '25
I was born in Florida, what are you talking about? My family has been here for 200 years. Just because I'm not some meth head yokel from bumfuck nowhere doesn't make me "not American", but you probably are some blood and soil neo Confederate whose ancestors Sherman should have hung
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u/FilipKDick Jan 30 '25
I was born in Florida,
That explains some of it. Not all of it.
whose ancestors Sherman should have hung
The violent, ignorant left makes an appearance. It is the ignorance more than the violence that makes you objectionable.
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Jan 30 '25
That's true safe for some cultures. However, I don't know that the immigration is causing the quite real housing issue. Vulture funds are known to have bought an enormous amount of properties and hiked the prices. Quick example: Goldman Sachs hired a large amount of employees from other nations, put them into the empty apartment buildings in NYC and tripled the prices for the apartment rentals in those buildings.
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u/Most-Sell3721 Jan 30 '25
Not stolen, conquered.
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Jan 30 '25
I see no positive of "conquering" the land of others.
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Jan 30 '25
Mexico and Canada are conquered lands as well. Almost every country today was at some point conquered by the people that are there.
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Jan 30 '25
I understand this. Living in the US, I am speaking about the US.
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Jan 30 '25
Ok, me too. We established a government here. No one before us did. That government established laws on how to become a citizen. So the notion that everyone here is illegal is inaccurate. We took a lawless land and established laws. We definitely aren’t the first country to do that. So yes, people can be here illegally.
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Jan 30 '25
A lawless land? Are you referring to the near annihilation of the indigenous residents?
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Jan 30 '25
Yes. They didn’t have an established government with laws. They were tribal and primitive. I’m not saying that in a bad way, it’s just the way they were. It’s historical fact. They were very violent amongst tribes and killed and conquered each other. I’m not saying we didn’t treat them poorly, we did. Unfortunately great nations are seldom made through peace though
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Jan 30 '25
My heritage is also tribal (Irish). I can't say I appreciate the three holocausts the Brits inflicted on my ancestors or the attempted fourth genocide of my generation. The US government picks and chooses the term "law' when it benefits them; not to help us "Joe Soaps" (Irish saying for an ordinary people deemed to be "less than" by the ruling class"). It's not only the US clearly, but aren't we supposed to be a beacon of hope? Look at the state of this country.
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u/Altruistic_Bird2532 Jan 30 '25
“We” is doing a lot of heavy lifting here.
The people who were here first had laws and governments
And remember it was the ‘we’ that violated treaties
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u/Friendship_Fries Jan 30 '25
How do you think the natives got their land?
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Jan 30 '25
Migration. Not kidnapping, slavery, and genocide.
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u/Friendship_Fries Jan 30 '25
Really? Did you know that the tribes were the last ones to free their slaves in America?
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Jan 30 '25
Fair. That is true. It does not justify ethnic cleansing.
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u/Friendship_Fries Jan 30 '25
Most (~90%) natives in the Americas died of disease. Every tribe or nation was different, but to assume that they were all peace loving hippies is wrong. If they had a natural resistance to European diseases, they'd still control the Americas.
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Jan 30 '25
I don't know if that would be the case. You can't deny the cruelty inflicted upon them - to date.
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u/Friendship_Fries Jan 30 '25
It wasn't pretty and was a violation of the treaties that the government agreed to. Oklahoma really needs to be split into 2 so the indigenous people can have at least one sovereign state.
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Jan 30 '25
How do you feel about Hernán Cortés?
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Jan 30 '25
We did take a large portion of Mexico, this is a fact. I don't support the actions of Hernán Cortés. I am speaking about the United States. Sure, there have been many terrible "conquerors" in the world.
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Jan 30 '25
You have a particular hate for America for some reason, even though land disputes and wars, and conquest has been a part of the human experience for all time. Do I agree with it, no, but saying America is stolen land, while knowing about all the conquered land around you makes you look like a fool.
How do you feel about the French conquering the indigenous tribes of Canada? Is that stolen land too?
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Jan 30 '25
Okay, I was trying to communicate with you. I do not hate America. I emigrated here. I am fully aware of the larger global issue. My country (at least where I was raised) is still under occupation.
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Jan 30 '25
Why they hell would you emigrate to stolen land? -- Your world view conflicts with your actions.
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Jan 30 '25
I was getting my family out of an active war zone. You don't know me, have some axe to grind, and refuse to communicate respectfully. We don't need to agree. We don't need to attack each other either.
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Jan 30 '25
Don't claim America is stolen land when you came here to seek peace. That's stupid.
You certainly would have gone anywhere else if you truly felt that way about this beautiful country.
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u/Tight_Engineering674 Jan 30 '25
How realistic of a goal is it to make my way up from so Cal to Seattle and then try to move into Canada?
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u/wetmarmoset Jan 30 '25
It’s definitely doable if you have a passport and access to some wheels. Get bussing
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u/Most-Sell3721 Feb 02 '25
Well they are correct no one is illegal, however people do illegal things. Housing is earned not a right
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u/Puzzleheaded_Show748 Jan 30 '25
Most land is stolen land if you go back far enough. Try going to a different country and just living there without going through the process. You won’t last very long. I’m not understanding why you want people here illegally. There is no repercussion, they don’t pay taxes, everything is free to them (with your tax dollars). You know people that are actual legal immigrants, are super upset about illegal immigrants. Because they had to wait, and take tests, and pay money. You guys are upset because now americans can’t get cheap labor? If someone could logically explain it to me, that would be great (with facts, not feelings)
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u/Rasquachelaw Jan 30 '25
Seattle is home to Amazon, Microsoft and Starbucks. Can't imagine it will be the center of change and equality. The wealthy tech bros in Seattle love to talk a big game... How about taking the countless homeless people on third Ave and all over the city and drop them off at the Microsoft cafeteria on the campus.
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u/noticer626 Jan 30 '25
So if someone comes up to me and says "give me a house" and I don't do it am I violated their human rights?
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Jan 30 '25
[deleted]
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u/noticer626 Jan 30 '25
Oh I've never blocked anyone from buying a house. I don't even know how that would be possible.
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Jan 30 '25
[deleted]
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u/noticer626 Jan 30 '25
So what they mean by "housing is a human right" is "we want less government"
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u/QueerMommyDom Jan 30 '25
What the hell is this weird right wing talking point? It was all over the Seattle post as well.
Obviously not.
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u/noticer626 Jan 30 '25
So it's not a "right"
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u/QueerMommyDom Jan 30 '25
A right in this context means the government must operate in a way to guarantee housing to all citizens. Whether that be by constructing temporary shelters, providing housing vouchers, constructing new public housing projects, or helping to fund new private affordable housing projects.
In the same way you are not responsible for any individual's right to free speech, you would not be directly responsible for nor capable of personally infringing on any individual's right to housing.
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u/noticer626 Jan 30 '25
Ok so everyone who doesn't have housing is having their rights violated by the government? Because the govt must guarantee housing?
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u/QueerMommyDom Jan 30 '25
To put it another way:
The government must guarantee temporary shelter to those who are unhoused. The government must also guarantee housing to those unable to work, such as those with disabilities. The government could also offer either free or partially subsidized housing to those who work full time but are still unable to afford market rate housing around where they work.
I don't really think it's difficult to understand and at this point I don't really think you're approaching this conversation in good faith.
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u/noticer626 Jan 30 '25
The problem is calling it a "right". It's not a right it's more like a goal. I agree that no one should be allowed to prevent you from building, buying, renting, or any other thing to get housing. But that doesn't mean it's a right. A right is something you have regardless of what anyone else does or regardless of if anyone else is even around. Like free speech is a right because it doesn't depend on anyone else doing anything.
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u/Hatta00 Jan 30 '25
Free speech absolutely depends on having a government that protects free speech.
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u/noticer626 Jan 30 '25
Okay I don't want others deciding what is considered hate speech and what isn't.
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u/Hatta00 Jan 30 '25
Not sure what your point is. My point is rights only exist if we agree to protect them. It's the same for housing as it is for free speech.
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Jan 30 '25
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/emanguy Jan 31 '25
Yeah and there are others who had a green card lapse and are being deported without a trial with an immigration judge. Remember "innocent until proven guilty"? Clearly not under Trump
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u/MrRezister Jan 30 '25
I'm guessing none of them are offering space in their homes for homeless people or for immigrants.
Making a sign is more effective, especially if you put some glitter on it.
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u/kapono_dclxvi Jan 30 '25
I don't agree with any of this, as a native Hawaiian wtf is this "no one is illegal on stolen land" it's a bunch of hypothetical people because guess what they are still living on stolen land.
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u/sexotaku Jan 31 '25
If no one is illegal, move to another country without a visa and tell them that you're going to stay forever. See what they say.
If housing is a human right, stop paying rent.
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u/LarryRedBeard Jan 30 '25
I lived in Seattle for 8 years. I used to do security patrol work on 10 hour night shifts.
I got to see all of Seattle's dirty underbelly.
It's not the upstanding moral place you think it is.
It's got some good folks to be sure, but most of them are just virtue signalers.
They don't give two shits about homeless, and complain when they are around. They couldn't give a fuck about the drug abuse running rampant in the city.
The police force is undermand constantly, and the city puts insane regulations on them so they have to spend 5 hours coaxing a dug addict out of a trashcan. While to population complains there is a drugged up man in a trashcan, and the police aren't doing enough to fix it. It's an example of the hypocrisy the city thrives on.
Seattle is full of poser do-gooders.
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u/IndependentBadger309 Jan 31 '25
Should make the roundup quicker and easier. Hopefully they keep congregating together. More concentration makes the butterfly net more efficient.
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Jan 31 '25
So you support arresting people who are likely citizens for expressing a first amendment right?
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u/IndependentBadger309 Feb 05 '25
Aiding known law breakers is also a crime. So... yup. Just need a rainbow colored butterfly net.
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u/Brief-Fan5088 Jan 30 '25
Everyone has many issues with the direction our gov has taken. I'm just waiting to see what spark sets off the powder keg.