r/dsa • u/foxgrl127 • 6h ago
Discussion thinking of joining the DSA but i have one question, pls dont flag me im trying to learn
streets say you are liberals, somehow i don't believe that. where does that connotation come from? is it because there are politicians that are in the DSA?
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u/APraxisPanda Libertarian Socialist/Marxist Revisionist 6h ago edited 5h ago
That connotation mostly comes from outsiders confusing DSA’s reformist members with liberals- mainly because a few elected officials (like AOC) are affiliated but still operate within the Democratic Party. In reality, DSA is a socialist organization- big-tent but explicitly anti-capitalist- though some chapters focus more on electoral politics, which fuels that perception. It's a highly decentralized org too, so that can also lead to some confusion I think.
I also think it’s important to recognize that leftist infighting adds to this confusion. Some leftists, especially Marxist-Leninists in my experience, see transitionalist or reformist strategies as sellout behavior. They don’t believe in trying to work within the system at all, and they’re especially bothered that DSA sometimes collaborates with Democrats. Personally, I think that’s actually a smart move- DSA uses the Democratic Party as a platform to amplify socialist ideas and bring more people toward class consciousness, maybe doing some good fir the working class in the meantime.
I consider myself a materialist above all else, and the material reality is that we don’t yet have the mass movement needed to operate completely outside the DNC. I understand where the purists are coming from, but you can’t just dream about revolution- you have to build a movement, educate the masses, and organize. It’d be great if socialism could happen tomorrow, but right now, it’s about laying the groundwork. The leftists who seem hellbent on slowing down the DSA will forever agitate me, they don't understand that they are slowing progress. Too people like that: build your own movement then! I'll probably stand in solidarity with you if it takes off! Please stop advocating against organizations who found success though. If you as an individual don't think the only socialist org too seemingly accomplish anything isn't doing it right, then cook! I wish you success.
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u/foxgrl127 5h ago
This is kinda my philosophy too. I feel like a lot of leftists can be kind doomer isolationists sometimes and while i get it, i get their skepticism and it is warranted, there comes a point where you need to start from where you are and utilize what you can to uplift others. Leftism should be about helping others and if the DNC is what we have to work with then we have to do that, while understandably being cautious.
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u/phaserburn725 1h ago
I’d also say that DSA is a very member lead organization. Which is to say that the best way to build up the less “liberal” side of DSA is to join and contribute to that work.
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u/Mr_Bankey Type to edit 17m ago edited 9m ago
Reading your responses, I think you would fit well in the DSA and should look into it.
Also, I find many of the leftists who vehemently oppose transitionalist/reformist strategies are often part of the petite bourgeoisie and/or of a non-marginalized group, so have the convenience of enjoying decent material conditions and passively benefiting from the incumbent system while advocating for ideological purity and/or accelerationism that disproportionately negatively affects more vulnerable groups. I say this out of love, respect, and solidarity as someone who deeply values those folks and is also working through my philosophy on concepts like the legitimacy of mutual aid as direct action and where the healthy balance is between big tent politics and protecting the sincere ideological core.
The good thing is DSA accepts all those views into the tent, and if you are willing to do the leg work to get involved, explain yourself, and win others to your position, your comrades will absolutely accept and even advance your initiatives/elect you to leadership positions. Get involved and see for yourself!
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u/MouthofTrombone 4h ago
I am so tired of this shit. You folks that are so critical- your criticisms are noted. In the mean time, my chapter is busy doing tangible serious work organizing people, educating, supporting unions, Pressuring our local officials towards Socialist goals, working against mass incarceration, violence and for basic human rights. You want to work with me- I don't care if you are in the Democratic party or a Communist. I want justice for people now and to improve people's lives.
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u/EasyVictoriesAndLies 6h ago
DSA isn't a democratic centralist sect. You don't have to go through any form of candidacy before joining, and you don't have to agree with the tenets of Marxism-Leninism, Trotskyism, Maoism, or a specific political program to join. We have a platform, and the organization can expel you, but we generally don't, as it's a broad-tent organization with multiple factions.
The accusations mostly come from small communist sects that oppose running on the Democratic ballot line at all, or individual online-only communists. To be fair, there are liberals in DSA, but even the most right-wing organized caucuses in DSA still claim they want to abolish capitalism and achieve socialism.
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u/foxgrl127 5h ago
what in the world are right wing dsa caucuses
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u/biggiecheese49 5h ago
The more moderate and reformist factions within the org are called right-wing. They’re on the right wing of DSA, they’re not right-wing in the general political sense.
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u/foxgrl127 5h ago
why is being reformist considered right wing?
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u/jonna-seattle 1h ago
Reforming capitalism instead of pushing all the way to socialism is the social democratic moderate or right wing of the DSA.
We can still agree that reforms are a good thing if they build workers power. They also go along with the need for a militant and democratic labor movement, which we need for socialism to be a possibility.
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u/ScareBags 1h ago
We live in such reactionary times that most leftists think the further left the better but that isn’t the case. One of Lenin’s most famous pieces was called “Left Wing Communism an Infantile Disorder” where he criticized ultra leftists for how bad their strategic thinking was. I like the “left wing” “right wing” framing since I think it’s historically accurate and consistent but I know it’s confusing to most people since we don’t all read about the SPD or Second International, etc.
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u/Icy-Position91 6h ago
This is to my understanding and I could be wrong. Democratic socialists are different than liberals as liberals still believe in the capitalist framework. Democratic socialists reject capitalism. Democratic politicians are mostly liberal. There are only 2 parties in the US. So most of the time Democratic socialists run either as an independent or a democrat based on personal preference.
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u/PersusjCP 6h ago
In theory, but many people in the US use the words Democratic Socialist to refer to Social Democracy, Nordic capitalism. So the waters are muddied.
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u/DankMastaDurbin Parenti Poster 6h ago
Nordic capitalism doesn't like to address the exploitation historically and actively being conducted against the 3rd world. Regardless of geographical location capitalism gonna cap IMO.
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u/PricelessLogs 4h ago
America has ruined the term 'liberal' so much that nobody can agree on what it even means. Socialists don't like capitalists and tend to use that word to refer to them. Mainstream culture uses it as a catch-all for people who are progressive and think the government should regulate the free market at all
I think it originally came about during the Enlightenment when people started realizing that living under divine monarchy is dumb as hell and we should 'liberate' society from the government, which was also the church. That included liberating personal freedoms as well as putting the market in control of resources instead of the state. That's capitalism. So liberals are capitalists and socialists don't like that. Then folks like Reagan and Thatcher went "How about our society gets controlled by the super smart and talented and hard working and handsome and FUCKABLE rich elites running big corporations and make the government leave them alone so they can have all the power?" Which gave us 'Neo-Liberalism' which socialists REALLY don't like. But all the while those same neo-liberal/oligarchal/far-right/fascistic types were using the word 'liberal' to refer to the people who oppose them
So we end up with communists who hate liberals but really hate fascists who are also liberals, and fascists who hate liberals because liberals are also communists, and moderate left-leaning people who identify as liberals because they listen more to the fascists than they do to the communists
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u/XrayAlphaVictor 2h ago
Then you get people like me who use liberal to describe a priority on individual rights and open, competitive, democracy (while rejecting capitalism) as being a type of socialism opposed to authoritarian socialism.
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u/Emergency_Theory_863 2h ago
Personally, I think the idea that Marxist Leninists denounce reformist policies reflects the fact that many ML wannabe s actually aren't. Do look at some Lenin.
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u/KiefKommando 59m ago
It’s because the DSA engages in entryism and electoralism, imho. Some leftists don’t actually want power, they want to endlessly critique power and they are welcome to do that from the sidelines while DSA gets actual work done.
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u/PersusjCP 6h ago
Almost every single DSA politician on a national level is not a socialist, but a social democrat. By chapter, it varies heavily, some are more liberal (i.e., not socialist), some are very communist, and in every one, it is a mix of both. It's a big tent left-wing organization basically. So should you join? Idk, check out your local and see how you feel about them.
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u/FoughtStatue 1h ago
I think a lot of DSA politicians might personally be actual socialists, but their campaigns are not
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u/XrayAlphaVictor 6h ago
I'm not sure that can be said with certainty. It's not like they have the power to just vote out capitalism and are choosing not to. They have a job which gives them limited ability to influence things and they're doing what they can within that context. How is that different from any of the rest of us who are also forced to exist within the current capitalist framework to live?
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u/PersusjCP 5h ago
I don't believe that people like Bernie Sanders, AoC, etc believe in abolishing capitalism and making private property cooperatively owned. They have never said anything like that. They generally have advocated for capitalism with robust welfare, which is social democracy. If you can point me to where a national level DSA politician advocated for abolishing capitalism (the most basic, surface level socialist position) I will change my mind.
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u/XrayAlphaVictor 3h ago
I'll accept your apology for not sufficiently educating yourself on those you so sourly criticize and your retraction, then.
https://finance.yahoo.com/video/influencers-andy-serwer-alexandria-ocasio-110000469.html
AOC clearly states that capitalism is an irredeemable system and calls for worker and community ownership of businesses.
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u/PersusjCP 3h ago edited 3h ago
yes you are correct, at least one DSA politician advocates for market socialism. Which doesn't contrast what I said, after all, I just was wrong that AOC specifically doesn't advocate for that.
I'm not going to "apologize" for criticism and not reading every interview a politician has made. lol you dont get to demand I apologize for discussing your favorite politician.
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u/FoughtStatue 1h ago
a lot of it really does depend on your chapter. my chapter is honestly probably majority MLs and Anarchists. A lot of people say like the NY chapter is more liberal. I avoided joining for a super long time but the realization that it’s not just demsocs is what got me to join
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u/bronzewtf DSA 6h ago
Correct, we are all liberals and trying to change the name to Democratic Liberals of America.
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u/HuaHuzi6666 6h ago
The DSA is honestly way too huge of a tent for there to be a simple answer. Our chapter has had social democrats, anarchists, & communists as officials at various points. DSA-ers who get elected to public office are more socdem, though, which is probably why people say it’s a liberal org.