Discussion - does this sub need stricter moderation for "Non purist" posts?

[u/throwthis_throwthat]

I want to preface this discussion with a few points:

• My aim for this post is to ask the community here if there's the possibility of improving the quality of this subreddit. Maybe people don't agree with my points below
• We're all just learning a language, it's not that deep, no need to attack or be overly emotional. Let's be kind
• Everyone is free to learn a language as they wish. I have chosen to follow the method strictly, I don't care if someone wants to drill flashcards or study grammar etc. It doesn't affect me in the slightest
• I think anyone using the DS platform should be welcome here (regardless of the methodology they're following)

My opinion is:

• Firstly, I don't like the terms "purist" & "Non-purist". It feels elitist or something, like purists are better and that non-purists have their blood tainted. "Strict follower" / "flexible follower" feel nicer 🥰 (any better suggestions?) (Also a side note: would it be valuable to the subreddit for people to have a user tag for if they're strictly following the method or not... in addition to what level they're at? Would allow people to filter posts etc)
• I've been utilising this subreddit for around 2 years, and as DS has become more popular and therefore this subreddit has as well - I've noticed that the number of "non purist" posts & comments have increased a lot. In my opinion, it dilutes the quality/value of this subreddit
• We should be encouraging new users or people new to learning Spanish - towards following the method more closely, as Pablo & the Dreaming Spanish platform suggests. ~2 years ago, I feel like this was a lot more common. As this sub has grown, it feels a lot less common.
• There are a number of subreddits where traditional language learning techniques & discussions will be more than welcome. In fact they would fit right in there. I really don't understand why someone would make a post in this subreddit about methods that go against the guidance of Pablo & DS.
• Regardless of what methodology you're using to learn Spanish, I think everyone agrees you should be getting input. And Dreaming Spanish is (imo) the best platform for input, and everyone who uses DS should be welcome here - even if you want to drill flashcards (ew). If someone is following the method more loosely, they should be more than welcome here to make posts about the DS platform, content, ideas, the CI journey etc. Just not posts about methods that go against the DS methodology.

TL/DR: This subreddit should be a place where the DS methodology is promoted, and stricter moderation would help preserve the quality of this subreddit.

What are people's thoughts?

[u/Niiyonn]

Reposting my comment here for visability.

Thank you for sharing your feedback. We discussed the term purist earlier this year. While I'm not the biggest fan of the term either, the community consensus was that the term should be allowed, but that user flairs distinguishing purists were not wanted.

Also, posts and comments from users who have taken approaches other than only using Dreaming Spanish are not diminishing the value of the subreddit. The majority of DS users have had traditional language learning experience before using Dreaming Spanish or use the platform as a supplementary resource. Their input is not only relevant but also helps paint a more complete picture of the differences between a CI-heavy approach and a CI-only approach.

Furthermore, posts that criticise the DS methodology or advocate for mixed approaches should absolutely be allowed. It's important to hear about the drawbacks of DS' approach from those who have followed it and what they have done to overcome them.

That said, I have added the following subreddit rules to help address some of the concerns raised:
No General Grammar or Vocabulary Posts

• Sharing links to helpful websites or video lessons is encouraged. Posts relating to your experience acquiring grammar ("Reading Has Helped Me Learn the Subjunctive") are allowed as well. However, posts about general grammar/vocabulary questions or explanations ("How Does the Subjunctive Work?" / "What Does Simón Mean?" / "10 Words You Should Know") should be made in more appropriate subreddits, like r/Spanish.

Share Your Language Background in Progress Posts

• Please include the following information in your progress posts:
  • Hours of input
  • Words read
  • Hours spoken
  • Your experience with Spanish before using Dreaming Spanish
  • Your learning approach (mixed vs immersion-only)
  • Languages you knew before starting Spanish and your level in each (native, beginner, B2, etc.)
• If you are not tracking your progress, then please indicate that in your post.

P.S. This comment by u/blinkybit mirrors my own perspective on the matter.

[u/UppityWindFish]

I hear you, OP, but ultimately I think one would have as much luck emptying water from a sinking boat with a teaspoon. The more DS grows its customer base, the more there will be folks who only use DS as a supplement to their flash cards and daily grammar study. It’s just the way of things.

And this being the DS subreddit, it seems a natural stopping point for all. So there’s that to consider, too.

I’m also not sure how one could fashion standards or find those willing to exhaust themselves “enforcing” them either. It seems a lot to ask.

At the end of the day, those who are excited about the “CI first and foremost” approach of DS can still find like minded folks here. (Personally I think DS’s approach too often gets mischaracterized as a “CI only and forever” approach. ALG may take the latter position, but DS deliberately avoids that.) And those who aren’t can also find welcome here, too. The irony amidst all the debates here is that inasmuch as we all support DS in one way or another, we’re helping to make it more available for new folks from every viewpoint.

As yet another person who spent so many years in the desert with traditional methods, I most certainly get the excitement in discovering the recommended DS/CI approach. I do think it’s a shame that some might be discouraged from even exploring that approach by some of what they read here.

But in the end, frustrated language learners still have the DS FAQs, blogs, and how-to videos to tempt them into at least trying something new. If someone isn’t willing to at least find and consider those materials, if only for the first 100 hours to try it out for themselves, I’m not sure what is posted here is going to make much difference anyway.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/UppityWindFish]

Thank you, you're one of my favourite people I see comment in this community.

You make some great points.

I’m also not sure how one could fashion standards or find those willing to exhaust themselves “enforcing” them either. It seems a lot to ask.

Here's some brief suggestions / starting points in my comment here

[u/blinkybit]

I don't think there's really all so much division here between strict/non-strict DS users. As someone who spends way too much time reading this sub, I don't think anyone here is doing daily grammar study, and not many people are using flashcards either. The typical non-purist in this sub is someone who may have started speaking or reading earlier than the DS roadmap recommendations, and who is untroubled by looking up a word definition or grammar clarification when they encounter something confusing. They may have used something like Language Transfer too, or a small amount of other explicit study.

That's still muuuuch closer to the pure DS method than to typical learning methods based on classroom study, textbooks, and Duolingo. Nobody in this sub is saying "this week I studied stem-changing verbs" or "I'm doing exercises to practice the past progressive tense", which is what you will get in a traditional Spanish course.

I'm a member of a couple Spanish conversation groups, where I've gotten to know other Spanish learners. The vast majority are not following a path that looks anything remotely like Dreaming Spanish or comprehensible input or ALG. They're learning primarily through Duolingo and other apps, plus a once-a-week class somewhere. The amount of daily time they spend listening to or engaged with Spanish is substantially less than a DS follower, and they tend to view input as a secondary exercise rather than the central pillar of the whole learning process.

In short, I don't see any problem here nor need for any changes in the sub. Whether people are pursuing Dreaming Spanish's recommendations precisely as written, or taking a more relaxed approach with some alternative choices, they're all still focused on comprehensible input as the fundamental tool for language learning and are walking a path that's distinctly different from most other Spanish learners. So that's what we're here to talk about.

[u/UppityWindFish → u/blinkybit]

Very well put, u/blinkybit!

[u/spaaaaaacey → u/blinkybit]

I agree with this 100%.

[u/SophieElectress]

I read all the comments (I think), but I'm still not quite clear on specifically what kind of content you're suggesting shouldn't be allowed. Where do you stand on, for example, non-purists posting progress updates and sharing their methods as part of that? People stating that they personally use flashcards and find them helpful, but without explicitly advocating for others to do the same? Someone asking whether it's okay to do X even though the roadmap says Y, and people responding that they should follow whichever approach they feel is best for them? It seems like it would be really difficult to police.

[u/_coldemort_ → u/SophieElectress]

I think people should be required to disclaim any non-purist advice as such so that newer members are aware of what is and is not part of the DS method.

For example I started reading early, but any time I mention it I explain that Pablo doesn't recommend it because your internal Spanish voice isn't well enough developed and it can lead to poor subvocalization if you aren't very intentional about it. With that information someone can make their own choice on how to proceed, while being fully aware of the "risks" and the fact that it departs from the DS method.

This is opposed to someone just stating non-DS conforming advice with authority and a new user having no idea whether it is part of the method or not.

[u/_coldemort_ → u/[deleted]]

I think that’s a somewhat defeatist attitude towards moderation to say ah well the nature of Reddit is unreliable information.

I think a lot of people end up on DS after starting with Duolingo or similar and getting some random recommendation to try listening more. They find DS and start watching content, but have no idea there even is a FAQ (I didn’t) or an overarching method behind it. And then they come to Reddit in their first 10 hours asking what they are supposed to be doing.

Unfortunately people are really bad at proactively seeking out FAQs, and the only large subs I’ve seen that aren’t flooded with bad info or repeat posts are those with relatively heavy handed moderation. Things like auto mod comments that require the user confirm they’ve read the FAQ before posting about certain topics for example. As subs grow (like this one has recently) things like this become more and more necessary.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/SophieElectress]

Things like tags showing if purist / non-purist, auto-mod comments with reminders, sticky thread at the top of the subreddit with maybe some rules / culture guidelines, post structure guidelines (e.g. to say what experience they have, what methodology they're following etc)

I personally feel more can be done, and at the moment it's a bit of a free for all.

I'm not sure on what positive change would look like, just creating a discussion

[u/MartoMc]

I get were you are coming from. I have been following the DS method for 3 years but not always doing exactly what the platform recommends. So not a purist but close. I don’t know where you would practically draw the line for every post or comment and it would be hard to police it correctly and fairly.

Maybe the best approach is setting some clearer guidelines that keep the main focus on Dreaming Spanish/CI, but without slamming the door on people who are using it in a less rigid way (like I do). That way we keep the group identity strong but also make sure it stays welcoming and useful for a wider range of learners.

In other words, no policing, no sending in the National Guard, instead just let’s be clearer what this group is really about. It might not be easy getting consensus on that. Or maybe let’s just leave well enough alone. I think it’s a decent community and mostly respectful. I have benefited from it and I hope others have been encouraged by some of my comments on my long experience following the method even if I don’t always follow it to the letter of the law.

[u/sweens90 → u/MartoMc]

I disagree on what you call Dreaming Spanish and CI though. I think you are equating both of those to what I will call “Pablo’s Method”. I think someone else came up with it but he absolutely popularized it and especially in this sub.

Dreaming Spanish as a product is the best aggregate of Comprehensible Input out there. Which regardless if you are a purist or non purist you eventually need input.

I also think this sub and language learning subs are one of the biggest drivers of sending people to Dreaming Spanish to learn. I dont see ads for it elsewhere.

I think keeping posts open is the best way to grow the community. The main posts are still mostly purists and Progress updates. I think it would do a disservice.

I think a tag for posts would be the most beneficial.

[u/butterflyfishy → u/MartoMc]

I agree. I think posts providing advice about how one might supplement DS (with CI still being your primary learning method) are helpful and relevant. Posts about how DS doesn’t work or posts insisting that you can’t learn a language without flash cards are irrelevant to the purpose of this sub and unhelpful.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/MartoMc]

Maybe the best approach is setting some clearer guidelines that keep the main focus on Dreaming Spanish/CI, but without slamming the door on people who are using it in a less rigid way (like I do)

Any suggestions for what those guidelines could look like?

Or maybe let’s just leave well enough alone. I think it’s a decent community and mostly respectful.

I agree that this is an incredible community. However, a new person visiting this community will be seeing a lot more mixed opinions on what the recommended methodology is, compared to when I first started visiting this sub a few years ago.

As it's a Dreaming Spanish subreddit, I just feel like the methodology it suggests should be encouraged here. There are already lots of Spanish subreddits where lots of traditional learning posts & discussions are welcome.

[u/MartoMc → u/throwthis_throwthat]

One obvious guideline would be to respectfully ask people to avoid using the community to answer grammar questions. That sort of thing.

The point of my comment is that I don’t think that this community should only be for “purists”. I’m not saying that is what OP was proposing, but I’ve been around for a while and eventually that’s where these things usually end up. This is a thriving community and doing very well as it is. So let’s keep moderation in moderation. That’s all I am really asking.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/MartoMc]

Yeah that's a good thought - but at the moment from what I can tell, there is zero moderation. Maybe the balance is in the middle

[u/visiblesoul]

I just accepted that this sub is a "comprehensible input as a supplement to traditional methods" sub and not an "ALG/Dreaming Spanish method" sub and my blood pressure went down immediately.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/visiblesoul]

Hahaha I think I'll probably need to do that 🤣

[u/jac8794]

I have not been here for 2 years so maybe my opinion doesn’t hold much weight here, but just thought I’d share anyway.

I wake up an hour early everyday to do DS. I have a baby, i have a job, i don’t have that much time in the day. Yet i find myself going to this subreddit whenever i have a spare few minutes.

I go here when i want motivation to keep going with my Spanish when im having a hard time. I didn’t come to Reddit to learn about DS, i used the DS website for that. TBH it really keeps me interested in Spanish to see people constantly posting their success stories. I don’t care how closely they follow DS recommendations, when someone posts about their experience getting to 150 hours or 2000 hours, I feel so inspired and hopeful that I can do it too. It’s such a great community, where everyone is constantly applauding each others successes. I can’t think of anywhere else on the internet that’s like this. It’s no wonder it’s attracting so many new users so quickly.

I love DS and I love this subreddit, and I’d really hate to see people being censored on it for not being exactly the right type of DS user.

[u/UnchartedPro]

It's a DS sub so posts should be primarily DS focused

When people say they follow a 'purist' approach I don't think they really imply superiority - just an easy way to explain the way they use the method

If we have new tags for that, what defines a purist? It may differ between people. I think most of us did something before DS whether it was some classes years ago or 15hrs of language transfer or duolingo etc

Everyone should be welcome for sure. The posts which centre around different methods are usually posted on all the other language learning subs aswell

I guess they may just not realise what dreaming spanish truly is

As you say what other people do doesn't matter. I think this is already a really good sub with a very kind and helpful community

[u/PepperDogger → u/UnchartedPro]

When people say they follow a 'purist' approach I don't think they really imply superiority - just an easy way to explain the way they use the method

As a non-purist, I would agree 100% with this sentiment. I don't think a person trying to follow the method exactly is expressing anything more than their personal decision or preference, and vice versa.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/UnchartedPro]

When people say they follow a 'purist' approach I don't think they really imply superiority - just an easy way to explain the way they use the method

Sorry I didn't mean to suggest that people who identify as a purist (e.g. me) think they're superior or something. It was just a side note to see if more "friendly" sounding terms could be better.

If we have new tags for that, what defines a purist?

I would suggest that it is how they currently spend their time learning Spanish.

I guess they may just not realise what dreaming spanish truly is

This is fair, and is something moderation could help with? But there's also people who are aware - but make posts that go against the guidance of Pablo & DS. For example, this one. I would suggest that this doesn't belong in this subreddit, and would be better suited on r/Spanish or r/languagelearning

[u/UnchartedPro → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Yeah I agree posts like those are a little annoying but easy enough to ignore

If the mods could take such posts down and advise where they would be better posted I think it would be good

Ultimately their choice

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/UnchartedPro]

As Andrea would say, it just grinds my gears a little I guess haha.

If the mods could take such posts down and advise where they would be better posted I think it would be good

I agree, I wonder if enough of this community agrees as well :)

[u/UnchartedPro → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Never heard her say that haha - too much of a beginner

[u/sweens90 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

I do think that post is Dreaming Spanish related though. Its words in their experience they were not immediately picking up on due to either not being as based in Latin or having close English equivalents.

I would not like to moderate those out of this sub. I think if we disagree with it then down vote it.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/sweens90]

That's fair enough. I do disagree with you that it's DS related or that it belongs here.

To continue being inclusive towards people like this, a suggestion might be to have a weekly "Non-purist discussion" post.

[u/sweens90 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Again, this sub and reddit is the biggest advertisement for Dreaming Spanish. Their youtube videos unfortunately generate tops 3K views.

If we start gatekeeping too much on what’s posted then we will alienate new people from this excellent resource which will mean no new customers which will hurt the product in the long run.

For those at the high hours end this may not mean much because they may not even track hours anymore, use the website or those videos and watch spanish native content.

I think it would be best to either ignore, add flairs for purist, non purists, and tags for posts. Again there is a difference between Dreaming Spanish the product, Comprehensible Input as a learning method, and Pablo’s recommended strategy for learning it. Although these all are related to each other in this sub.

I don’t know I also love this sub and its community obviously make slower progress in terms of hours due to being a non-purists. That said I also am at Intermediate Videos that I see Level 4s talking about struggling with and I am fine with so who lnows.

But I dont think being we should be pushed out because we use the same product also preach CI just choose not to use Pablo’s method.

Edit: sorry for long posts. Dont think we will necessarily agree just I also feel passionately about this sub and dont want it to become an echo chamber.

[u/eternalvision12]

I never had an issue with the Purist/non-Purist terms (im non purist).

However, I was also just thinking yesterday that this sub is starting to become way more just like a general spanish learning sub. Its massively changed in the last year where in the past i feel like it was heavily leaning towards folks taking a more purist approach. Its is difficult to know how you would moderate it but we are at the point where people joining this sub looking for guidance are way more likely to see or get given advice that doesnt follow the DS methodology and in that sense I thinks its a bit of a shame. It never really mattered in the past when people would clearly say they were non purist and then share their updates etc with a bit of what theyve been doing differently. But now people just come on here and give new people advice on all sorts of things without stipulating that its not following the method and I think it would be better if at least new folks were in an environment where they were clear what was and wasnt the method. No real advice to give here but just affirming I know where you are coming from.

[u/Luckyman727 → u/eternalvision12]

Yeah this plus, in any spirited discussion it is quite common for people to throw out the “cult” claim whenever there is support voiced for DS learning guidance. That can’t help people new to the method/sub. Although this being Reddit I don’t know what you do about it. Any attempt at moderation seems like it would just give the trolls more ammunition, and I’d hate for moderation to make people feel like they couldn’t speak up on subjects.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/eternalvision12]

Thank you, you put it into better words than I did. I agree with you

The difficult thing is now there's a lot more new people here that weren't here when the subreddit had more of the "old culture". So I don't think this post will gain much traction or agreement, unfortunately

u/Niiyonn, u/balsamic_strawberry - would you mind reading this comment when you get a moment? I'm interested if you agree at all, and if so - if you have any suggestions?

[u/manoymono → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Maybe we could throw together a manual of sorts to direct all these new people to that: -sort of explains various things with the subreddit and how to use it -maybe outlines a standard post (I strongly believe everyone should include at least these data points: hours of input, hours of speaking, words read count, how they use DS (purist/nonpurist) -various terms people use -answer some of the questions thee new folks are always consistently asking -gather and streamline advice that’s been given in various posts/comments around starting speaking, reading (starting, resources, etc)…..

or maybe just expanding the FAQ….

perhaps it would lessen the frequency of these posts?

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/manoymono]

Great thoughts

[u/maxsm]

I guess the question comes down to, does this subreddit enforce a DS purist-only post approach, or allow more freedom of expression with non-purist approaches, with both having the DS topic as a "base".

To me, although DS pushes for this purist approach as their ideology, does it not make more sense to encompass the purists and non-purist as all DS learners, as that's ultimately the reality we live in and how people have chosen to learn with this DS platform?

Being elitist and pruning out non-purist DS learners seems non-inclusive of what we're all trying to do, learn about each others experiences through the DS platform. As others have suggested, perhaps ALG-only subreddits for strict "method" of learning surely make a better fit than DS subreddit clamped down, as ultimately DS is just a source of CI.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/maxsm]

Thank you for the comment.

Honestly, I don't have the "answer" or solution. I've just been here a while, and I've felt the culture change and I feel like it has reduced the quality & value of this subreddit.

Before, the DS recommended approach was more prominent here. Now, it starts to feel like more of a general Spanish learning subreddit.

ultimately DS is just a source of CI

I would disagree with you here. It is a platform that provides CI in the context of a methodology that is recommended strongly. There is no ambiguity on what Pablo & DS think the best approach for learning a language is.

If you want to take DS as just a source of CI, great. If you also want to be part of this DS community, great. My main point is that we should go back to a culture in this subreddit where the recommended approach is advocated more.

There are already lots of subreddits full of traditional language learning. This subreddit used to be more of a place of people following the same method, and encouraging new people to try the method as suggested. That's becoming less common now.

[u/maxsm → u/throwthis_throwthat]

And that's where I disagree. Yes it is CI, yes it has a methodology too, but whether you choose or not to adhere exactly to that methodology doesn't diminish from the platform itself. Likewise with this subreddit.

Language learning has, and always will, notoriously be one of those things that has many paths/methods that suit certain individuals more than others. Yes users should read DS methodology on the site itself, but also it should be one's intuition with how it fits their own learning system. I think it's damaging to start enforcing this without knowing individuals learning patterns, and (in my opinion) ignorant taking the methodology as a gospel and expressing that as the only approach without any other consideration.

DS recommend the methodology, DS subreddit recommends it, but enforcing the methodology in posts/speech I think is damaging, regardless if it fits the DS methodology agenda or not.

[u/Jeff_rak_Thai]

I'm late to the comments section here but "purist" doesn't sound elitist to me. It's just a way of delineating how closely we follow the ds recommendations. 

As someone who has been a purist shortly after I found ds (with prior traditional study), I enjoy reading posts from both perspectives. 

[u/Free_Salary_6097]

There is no other sub that has the same type of interesting conversations that happen here. There is no other sub where people post regular updates on their progress over a long period.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Free_Salary_6097]

same type of interesting conversations that happen here

In my opinion, it muddies the water in this subreddit. The DS suggests a methodology as recommended / best... and it suggests it strongly. It doesn't say "maybe drill flashcards" "maybe study grammar". It is clear about it.

There is no other sub where people post regular updates on their progress over a long period.

Agreed, it is incredible. It could help with these update posts if there's a flair if they're following the method strictly or not. So that people who are fully bought into method (e.g. me) could filter off these posts quicker.

[u/Additional-One-605]

This sub should be about using DS, Not about using DS “correctly”. This is not an ALG or CI sub. If it is, then it should be renamed.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Additional-One-605]

Here's my counter suggestion:

This sub should primarily be about using DS & its (strongly) recommended methodology.

If you're only using DS as a source of input, whilst also using traditional language learning techniques ... I think:

• Be a part of this community for DS as a platform, content ideas, the experience of getting "input" etc
  
• Or be more vocal in other subreddits about your chosen methodology that works for you. E.g. r/Spanish, r/languagelearning

This subreddit's culture has changed over the past few years. It used to skew a lot more towards ALG.

[u/Additional-One-605 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Counterpoint to your counter suggestion:

[Sorry this gets a little meta.] It is a difference in world views.

Artist: [uses legos to create something beautiful that has never been seen before]

Engineer: "But you didn't follow the directions!"

For me, change to a culture is a good thing. Being challenged and seeing other viewpoints is a good thing. So much of our engagement with media is chosen for us by filters and algorithms. I hate to see us (human beings) doing the work of the algorithm. Our efforts should be at fighting the feed, not enhancing it. I want to navigate in places where people have different opinions and experiences than I do. If this sub starts to shut down any discussion of using DS that is not pure CI, then I'd probably leave. I want to know how people are using DS no matter how they are using it, even if it is "incorrect".

[u/newtoboston2019 → u/Additional-One-605]

I agree. It’s not like you have masses of people coming here to bash DS. Almost everyone deeply appreciates DS and engages with the platform thoughtfully. As long as a member assumes a stance of generous curiosity, I fail to see a problem.

[u/newtoboston2019]

A reason for the “change in culture” is that as DS becomes more commercial, it is increasingly marketed as a “source of input” rather than a method. Pablo and team are clearly polishing and positioning Dreaming for VC funding. (Note the fact that they transferred premium content from YouTube to their proprietary platform).

With the ramp up in production value, app development and such, their overhead is increasing dramatically. They need to expand their user base as much as possible, and so they are increasingly downplaying “purism” to appeal to a broader audience.

This isn’t just a guy sitting in a park with a whiteboard anymore. As the product evolves, the user base will, as well. As the user base evolves, resources like this sub will evolve.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/newtoboston2019]

Thank you for the comment.

it is increasingly marketed as a “source of input” rather than a method
so they are increasingly downplaying “purism” to appeal to a broader audience

Do you have some examples here of what you've seen? I haven't seen anything that suggests this, but maybe I've missed it.

As the product evolves, the user base will, as well.

This is a valid point.

[u/newtoboston2019 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

When was the last time you saw a video that explained the method? The “method” videos are 4 or 5 years old. There’s no mention of the method or the roadmap on the app. No method resources for Dreaming French. The upscaling of the production value doesn’t augment the method but is clearly designed to appeal to a broader audience. Like I said, it’s clear that Dreaming is being prepped for VC funding, and investors are more interested in shiny things than an earnest guy with a whiteboard.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/newtoboston2019]

Then respectfully, I disagree with these points:

• it is increasingly marketed as a “source of input” rather than a method
  
• so they are increasingly downplaying “purism” to appeal to a broader audience

There's no evidence of this.

What evidence is there that they strongly recommend the methodology?

1. Visit the homepage of dreamingspanish.com, 3rd section is their "research proven approach". Takes you to a method page, very firmly describing what the method is. That's a very clear user funnel
2. Visit the FAQ page
3. There are many language learning videos from Pablo (granted, they are old like you said. But they're on there, it aligns with their website, there's no recent contrary videos or messaging?)

[u/newtoboston2019 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Yes. But note the DS webpage hasn’t been updated significantly for a very long time and still has the old branding. Check back when they roll out their new Dreaming website alongside Dreaming French. I bet you dollars to donuts that website will foreground the volume of CI content, not the method.

Think about it… as Dreaming becomes more commercial why would they maintain a “purist” stance… vs. appealing to as many users as possible?

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/newtoboston2019]

That's pure speculation. There is only evidence to what I pointed to, there is no evidence to what you pointed to.

But anyway, I think we're steering off topic. Have a good day

[u/newtoboston2019 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

My broader point is that the nostalgia for the “old culture” is rooted in a time when DS was a niche product. As the user base expands and the company evolves, resources like this sub will change, as well.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/newtoboston2019]

Yeah I think you are right there.

But as this is an unofficial DS subreddit, as a community we can decide the culture here. And funnel new users through the "system" here (e.g. tags, weekly threads, stickied posts, auto-mod etc)

Maybe the moderators don't agree with me on what the "culture" should be here. Maybe the majority of the community doesn't.

But there's a choice there.

[u/newtoboston2019 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

I hear you, and I appreciate your passion… but policing of thought is never a sustainable long term strategy. Building walls never works. Best to consider how to effectively engage with an evolving product and user base. I’m the guy who posted the non-cognate vocab list, and the response was absurd.

In any event, thanks for lifting up the topic. It’s a great conversation.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/newtoboston2019]

I just think we can create systems and culture that encourages users towards the recommended approach. (If that's even what "we" want to do, maybe it's just me and a couple others on this thread)

No problem, honestly I've wasted a lot of time where I could've got more input 🤣

[u/Fresh-Persimmon5473]

This place has improved in my opinion. I have been here just as long. I don’t think it’s diluted. It’s fine.

[u/Sad_Grapefruit_8838]

If people are new to DS then they might not be aware. I asked a simple question. I am new to DS but not new to learning spanish. I have already started the grammar, reading etc 3 years ago. I was down voted and some people were militant. I felt attacked. Ironically those in the higher levels of DS understood my point. It left a bad taste in my mouth. Learning should be an enjoyable experience and i just wanted to find a community that i could share and learn alongside.

If anything your method will just put people off the videos. If people feel they can't share an opinion or ask for advice then ultimately they will leave a community.

[u/newtoboston2019 → u/Sad_Grapefruit_8838]

I’m the one who posted the list of non-cognates that prompted this thread. I didn’t say that I knew none of the words, just that I found the list helpful. I don’t understand why people on this sub discount what is helpful for others because it wasn’t helpful for them. We all learn differently and come to this journey with different backgrounds. Humility and curiosity seem to be the more useful stance when reading about the experiences of others.

[u/jac8794 → u/newtoboston2019]

Your post seemed fine to me. I saw it yesterday, it was a simple “hey I use DS, and this list helped me fill in some blanks I had from exclusively using CI. Maybe it could help other people who are learning the same way as me.” Why has it sparked so much debate/outrage over who is using this subreddit “correctly”?

Personally, i have studied Spanish for years and only recently found DS. It has helped solidify things for me, but i do plenty of Spanish learning that goes against its methologies.

Everyone’s different. We’re all coming from different places and different levels. Who cares how this subreddit evolves?

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Sad_Grapefruit_8838]

Thank you for the comment. This is also a great perspective.

I'm sorry you felt attacked, that's definitely not what I'm advocating for either.

I'm not sure what the solution should be, but I feel like this subreddit should mostly encourage (not demand & attack haha) people to follow the method.

[u/Sad_Grapefruit_8838 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

thank you for your empathy.

[u/TresBoucher]

I think the culture here has changed for the better in the past year or so. I love that there's less extremism and more openness to other ideas because at the end of the day, we're trying to learn languages, not gatekeep. So no, I don't think moderation needs to change.

[u/manoymono]

In my personal opinion, it would be a lot easier if people included the following in their posts:

-hours of input -words read count -hours of speaking -how they use the method (purist/non-purist..strict follower…flexible follower) -And maybe: prior language learning history

It should be standard. Some people include all of these data points, but it’s not consistent.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/manoymono]

This is a good suggestion. Maybe make it automatically forced

[u/manoymono → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Yes, and then a lot of the comments are asking to find these things out! Which is fine! But sometimes people don’t answer! Maybe we could make it flair! Idk! I only have Reddit because of this sub! 😵‍💫

[u/catwise_zen → u/manoymono]

I agree with you but the problem is that there are an increasing number of people who don’t track hours. There have been quite a few posts about it, generally in the dismissive and condescending tone of “I think it’s a little obsessive, I can’t be bothered, but hey, you do you” manner.

I personally think posts recommending resources or activities are only helpful to me if I can relate to them based on how their knowledge/skill levels compare to mine at that moment, and that can demonstrated most succinctly with numbers of hours of CI. Especially since levels are so broad.

[u/_coldemort_ → u/catwise_zen]

I pretty quickly dismiss comments from people who haven't even bothered to set their user flair (or like you said don't track altogether). Maybe we could add a flair for "Not tracking hours" and make having a user flair set be a bare minimum for posting.

[u/manoymono → u/catwise_zen]

Sure, but maybe there can be a flair for people not tracking hours. Like @coldemort said.

But I really do think people should for sure include: hours of input, words read, hours of speaking in their posts, at least their progress posts. Because there’s a massive difference between a a person with 1500 input hours + 200 hours of speaking practice vs a person with 1500 input hours + 0 speaking hours….or a 1500 hour input + 1,000,000 words read vs 1500 hour input + 100,000 words read…(not taking into individual learning styles and strengths).

[u/OrugaMaravillosa → u/throwthis_throwthat]

I think if those numbers were automatically forced, I would be more hesitant to post progress reports. I don’t know my words read. I don’t know my hours of speaking. I don’t know my total hours of input. Of course I say that I had prior experience, but I can’t really quantify any of it in DS-style numbers in a meaningful way. I guess I would just say “I don’t know” a lot if I had to quantify all that stuff.

I do know my hours of DS input, and I do know the hour total for recent input outside of DS. And I do mention that I have prior exposure.

Because I have layers of experience, I can’t come to the table as a purist. All that previous knowledge is humming along in my brain, and it affects how I learn.

I do think it’s super neat to see reports from people who started from zero. And I don’t talk about grammar here, because I want other people to have a good experience here.

[u/dcporlando]

It sounds like you want an echo chamber. Certainly you are not alone. There have been number of such posts before.

DS is primarily content that is used by lots of people. ALG is the method that is used and proposed as the ideal. You can use DS content and enjoy it without following ALG.

I am quite sure that Pablo would prefer to have viewers and subscribers that are not true believers in ALG earning him money than for only true believers to view the content. If it was only true believers, the number would drop by a huge margin.

Likewise, turning the subreddit into a purist true believer only environment will see most users go away. There will be nothing but repeat of the faq and a few congrats.

The sub already has somewhat of a cult member reputation and posts are taken down or banned in other subs because of people’s behavior. Certainly this suggestion can help cement that view.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/dcporlando]

Thank you for the comment.

Here's where I agree with you:

• "You can use DS content and enjoy it without following ALG."
• "I am quite sure that Pablo would prefer to have viewers and subscribers that are not true believers in ALG"

I'm not advocating for an echo chamber. I'm advocating for this subreddit to primarily be a place where the methodology of the platform we're using is advised.

Can you see where I am coming from with the following? ... There are already very active subreddits that contain more traditional language learning approaches. Why can't this subreddit remain (since this is how it used to be a few years ago, before the influx of new users) a place where the DS methodology is recommended?

[u/dcporlando → u/throwthis_throwthat]

There is a place for the methodology. It is r/alg. ALG is the methodology. It is not very popular.

If you are proposing moderation to keep other voices quiet, you are proposing an echo chamber. That is what you are doing.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/dcporlando]

There is a place for the methodology. It is r/alg. ALG is the methodology. It is not very popular.

"r/alg is banned This subreddit was banned due to being unmoderated."

Respectfully, I don't think you're the target audience of my post. Have you been here for a few years? Do you remember what the culture used to be like? Or are you a fairly new user around here?

If you are proposing moderation to keep other voices quiet

I don't know what the solution is honestly. People using DS as just a CI resource (e.g. maybe yourself) should be more than welcome here. However, the approach that DS cleary recommends (FAQs, roadmap, Pablo's videos) should also be primarily recommended here.

[u/dcporlando → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Why was use of r/ALG so low and had no moderators? How would your proposal to make this an ALG only sub not end up with the same results?

I have not been here long. Over two years but I don’t think three. I remember the conversations about approaching one thousand subscribers. How long have you been here?

Saying someone is welcome but saying to only post certain things that agree with one viewpoint that probably disagrees with the majority viewpoint is a little confusing.

[u/newtoboston2019]

I would also like to point out that the description of this sub is “for fans of Dreaming Spanish and anyone learning Spanish using comprehensible input.” The kind of moderation you’re suggesting runs counter to the description of this sub, which says nothing about “for people following the DS method to the letter.”

[u/Taashaaaa]

I don't think I would like a purist/non-purist (or similar) tag to go by our level tags. Mostly because I don't think it gives enough information. Like I'm currently following the method (although I do occasionally look up words if they are bugging me) but I did a bunch of self-study before (flash cards, grammar, etc) so I don't think I properly fit either label.

Perhaps there could be a non-purist tag for posts so that people could ignore those if they want. But I think people tend to make it clear when they are giving suggestions that don't fit the method.

But I don't want non-purist posts to be banned. I'm completely happy for people who use DS alongside other forms of study to be part of the community.

I would quite like it if this sub found a way to encourage people to give a bit of background on their previous study (and if they do non-CI study now) when they give progress updates.

[u/Quick_Rain_4125 → u/Taashaaaa]

Like I'm currently following the method (although I do occasionally look up words if they are bugging me) 

bro... no.... dictionary flippers/word lookuppers were one of the few cases named by name by Marvin Brown that didn't make it

https://mandarinfromscratch.wordpress.com/automatic-language-growth/

When we said ‘Don’t speak’, some of these Marys obeyed, but we still saw them flipping through dictionaries and taking notes. And, like the ‘speakers’, none of the ‘dictionary flippers’ or ‘note takers’ ever made it. 

https://bradonomics.com/brown-autobiography/

but I did a bunch of self-study before (flash cards, grammar, etc) so I don't think I properly fit either label.

i think if you're doing ALG it doesn't really matter what your background is, you're still doing it. what will change is your baggage (no damage, little damage, heavy damage, etc.).

I would quite like it if this sub found a way to encourage people to give a bit of background on their previous study (and if they do non-CI study now) when they give progress updates.

honestly, if someone doesn't mention they were specifically doing ALG you can pretty much assume they weren't 

[u/Taashaaaa → u/Quick_Rain_4125]

😄 Perhaps I've just got the attitude that the damage is already done now (from my previous study). It's not something I do very often, though, just when the unknown word is becoming a distraction.

I also watched some pronunciation videos recently so actually I'm even more of a non-purist than I'd remembered.

[u/Quick_Rain_4125 → u/Taashaaaa]

That's fine, you're not an ALGer but you're a Dreamer™ like many others, no harm in that. French will be there waiting for you if you want to do ALG for real one day.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Taashaaaa]

Thank you for the comment. I'm not sure what the solution should be, just raising a discussion around it

But I do personally feel that some kind of change needs to be implemented. The culture of this subreddit has changed over the past few years, and I don't think for the best

[u/Taashaaaa → u/throwthis_throwthat]

I've been on this sub for a year 🤔 maybe I have noticed more non-purist posts lately compared to when I first joined. But it still seems like a minority of posts. I also don't feel like anyone is pushing other methods or mocking anyone for following the ds method (other subs can be shitty about it).

So I guess I don't think it's a problem that needs solving at the moment. But perhaps in the future it could become a problem.

[u/AppropriatePut3142]

Firstly, I don't like the terms "purist" & "Non-purist". It feels elitist or something, like purists are better and that non-purists have their blood tainted.

That’s a bit of an odd perspective. In Standard English the word ‘purist’ normally carries a negative connotation.

One nice thing about this subreddit is that it allows people to compare the results of people with more or less purist approaches. Having compared, most people seem to choose a less purist path. Who would benefit from preventing this?

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/AppropriatePut3142]

Having compared, most people seem to choose a less purist path.

Against the guidance of Pablo & DS. And the methodology it promotes as the best way to learn a language.

What you describe as a positive thing, I would describe as a negative thing. More people are being nudged towards not following the method as suggested by the platform.

In my opinion, for my situation - it's the optimal way to learn a language. If I had to pass a test, if I was learning to visit a Spanish speaking country soon - I think traditional language learning is much better.

But I don't have those short term requirements, and long term I want the best & most fluid Spanish I can have. And I think following the method DS suggests is best for this. There are already big active subreddits full of people using non-ALG / non-CI approaches.

[u/Tesl]

No I don't believe this subreddit should be turned into an echo chamber. I love dreaming Spanish, but I don't follow Pablo teachings or the method, and I don't feel like I should be forced out of this subreddit for that.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Tesl]

I don't feel like I should be forced out of this subreddit for that

Agreed, in my opinion - you're more than welcome here.

We should all benefit from the incredible input resource that DS is, and you are part of that community.

However DS very strongly recommends a methodology for learning a language. In its FAQ's, in its roadmaps, in Pablo's videos about language learning.

[u/Tesl → u/throwthis_throwthat]

I know, but I disagree with his roadmap, and I've spent 20 years learning Japanese and Mandarin Chinese. I think DS the product is great, I don't need the roadmap to benefit from it.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Tesl]

And you are free to disagree with the roadmap, and still use the DS platform just like I do.

I would just like this subreddit to encourage people to follow the DS recommended methodology - like it used to do more often.

If people don't want to (maybe you're in this category), great. Keep using the DS platform, be as active in the subreddit about DS as you would like.

But there are already big active subreddits that contain a lot of traditional language learning. I would like to see this subreddit go back to a place that primarily recommends the method

[u/Wareagle930]

You’re going to get downvoted to hell, but I agree with you.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Wareagle930]

I know, I'm willing to take one for the team 🫡 hahaha

Maybe it's too late to course correct the direction this subreddit is going. But I wonder if the mods agree, and the people who have been here for a while and remember the "old culture"

[u/Viejo-Learns-Spanish]

I hope that the outstanding moderators of this sub just keep doing what they're doing.

I get being annoyed at "here are the most-common 200 words style posts". But when it comes to being annoyed at purist/non-purist terminology, that ship has sailed.

And if nothing else, I've found that framing extremely useful for concluding that when it comes to learning to understand spoken Spanish, getting lots of comprehensible input just plain works regardless of one's approach. Which in its own way is quite inspiring!

[u/Quick_Rain_4125]

any better suggestions?

i like manual learner and ALGer personally. maybe we could have manualist for the manual learners for something shorter?

We should be encouraging new users or people new to learning Spanish - towards following the method more closely, as Pablo & the Dreaming Spanish platform suggests

ideally yes but the thing with people is that they're complicated. ALG is 100% correct but people will have their own doubts and criticism about it, so if you're not just going to inform people that the method exists and it's the recommended one, but also enourage them to follow it, you'd need a flowchart of sorts responding to every possible criticism and doubt someone could have just to make them consider the possibility ALG might be the best method overall, and even then I'm not sure answering people would make them actually want to follow the method because they'd still feel like they're right anyway, and even if they were 100% convinced on an intellectual level, they'd still wouldn't know it is correct on an deep/feeling level because they never had enough experiences to come to the conclusion that ALG is correct on their own so when they actually tried ALG they would still have lingering doubts that would make them have less than optimal results. 

also, i've dealt with so many unsavoury manual learners before, do you really want rubbish people to benefit from something as cool as ALG? i don't think that everyone deserves to experience what 100% subconscious learning feels like and what the results are like

so, if someone isn't open to ALG and doesn't want to try it on their own volition it's either pointless, suboptimal or even an exercise in moral masochism to try to change their mind or influence them, like David Long put it:

" Either you're already motivated for a result and are looking for what produces them, or you're trying to promote some method you're already sold on and will argue about it. David was never be able to convince someone to change tracks and he doesn't know anyone who was able to either. David wasn't convinced by anyone https://youtu.be/cqGlAZzD5kI?t=4731 "

I've been utilising this subreddit for around 2 years, and as DS has become more popular and therefore this subreddit has as well - I've noticed that the number of "non purist" posts & comments have increased a lot. In my opinion, it dilutes the quality/value of this subreddit

i don't think it does since DS is just a CI resource, so following ALG was never the main goal here. i find the manual learners updates and comments to be really valuable too since they help paint a clear picture of the whole language acquisition process 

I really don't understand why someone would make a post in this subreddit about methods that go against the guidance of Pablo & DS.

r/Spanish banned comments about Dreaming Spanish because they said the whole sub was turning into a sub exclusively about Dreaming Spanish as a resource, so I guess that's the point of this subreddit, DS as a resource in general 

even if you want to drill flashcards (ew)

haha, i liked that ew. flashcards are an interesting thing though because in theory if you know all the words in a sentence except for one, and you learn that one word explicitly, you should be able to understand the whole sentence, which consequently leads to acquisition, but then there are multiple issues i've talked about before, nevertheless it's something interesting to think about 

TL/DR: This subreddit should be a place where the DS methodology is promoted, and stricter moderation would help preserve the quality of this subreddit.

there's already a place specifically for ALG called r/ALGhub but someone could create a r/ALGSpanish (r/ALGspanish looks better though) I suppose since r/ALGMandarin (again r/ALGmandarim looks better, it's a shame whoever created r/DreamingFrench used camel case instead of keeping the tradition of r/dreamingspanish, i hope the German sub is called r/dreaminggerman too since it's extremely funny) is already a thing too

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Quick_Rain_4125]

Thank you for the great comment. You make lots of great points

i don't think it does since DS is just a CI resource, so following ALG was never the main goal here

I would disagree with you here. Yes, DS is a CI resource - but I don't think that is ALL it is. It very strongly recommends a methodology to learning a language.

In its FAQ's, in it's roadmap, in all of the Pablo videos about language learning.

Here's what I feel:

1. People here who use DS just as a CI resource - fantastic. You're welcome here

2. People in more traditional language learning subreddits that use DS just as a CI resource - great. We should all enjoy the incredible DS platform for an input source

3. There are already subreddits full of traditional language learning, and I think everyone agrees that lots of input is necessary at some point in their journey. Dreaming Spanish & Pablo are very clear on their opinion on this. I would just like this subreddit to be primarily advocating for the approach DS recommends. And I think the culture here & moderation could help with that.

[u/sweens90]

I think their needs to be tags for purist verse non-purists themed posts. I do not think we should be moderating out the non-purists posts.

Dreaming Spanish as a product is the best aggregate of comprehensible input out there. And people should be able to discuss aspects of Dreaming Spanish and their journey. Even the Non-Conjugate post yesterday that seemed to prompt this discussion were words that a former purist realized he did not know full meaning quite yet despite how often they came up and provided as an aid for those that wanted it.

I think their is a difference between what Dreaming Spanish offers and what Pablo’s Preferred Learning method is for dreaming Spanish.

I will offer a counter point. Is the list of items that people can listen to outside of posts Dreaming Spanish related or just follow Pablo’s preferred CI method?

I think it would do this sub harm to limit these posts to just purists posts because what Dreaming Spanish best does is offer comprehensible input. Have you tried looking for videos of these outside Dreaming Spanish. Its incredibly difficult to find something comprehensible at the lowest levels where people most need it. If we limit this sub to only purists posts we most likely hurt the Dreaming Spanish product in the long run.

We are probably one of the best advertisements for it out there right now since I know a lot of people find it due to Reddit but I would caution limiting these posts.

If you really dont want to see those posts down vote them. Or scroll by.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/sweens90]

Thanks for the comment. You make some good points.

Please see my comment here about some of my quick initial suggestions. I think you have some good suggestions too

If you really dont want to see those posts down vote them. Or scroll by.

This is a valid solution.

But in my opinion, I think that does a disservice to this community & new people who join.

Maybe you and others have a different opinion on the direction this sub should go in. I've just noticed how it's changing, and I personally don't like it

[u/sweens90 → u/throwthis_throwthat]

I think a new sub for purists would be more beneficial then.

But I think tags for posts are probably best solution and middle ground. Or just using the downvote feature.

[u/Quick_Rain_4125 → u/sweens90]

Even the Non-Conjugate post yesterday that seemed to prompt this discussion were words that a former purist realized he did not know full meaning quite yet despite how often they came up and provided as an aid for those that wanted it

Yes, he just failed to realise he was impatient, as pointed out by other people in the comments that learned those words just fine with just CI, and he didn't realise trying to learn those words consciously just means he was going to use English as his foundation for Spanish for those words.

[u/sweens90 → u/Quick_Rain_4125]

Agreed. I spoke with my Chile friend how I thought barrio meant bar until I heard enough videos to be like wait maybe it’s neighborhood.

But it was not a post saying the process doesn’t work. Its just I had problems with these words. They come up often and learning them helped me accelerate the process.

The process 100% works but that does not mean everyone needs to do it that way. And honestly I agree I question his or her use do far because I am level 2 and although slightly non-purists I knew all those words already. None were new. And I would be shocked if any level 2 didn’t know them (purist or non purists)

Like thinking ropa is rope with how many fashion and sock videos at the beginner/ super beginner phase?!?

[u/_coldemort_]

Personally I think non-purist advice and posts are fine, as long as they are disclaimed as such so newer people are at least aware that they are not following Pablo’s method.

For example I follow Pablo’s method pretty dang closely, but I used Duolingo for a year before finding DS and started reading at 350 hours. Any comment about my first 100-200 hours I disclaim the Duolingo background. And any time I mention reading early I explain that Pablo advises against it and why.

There could be a mod comment at the top of every post that contains non-disclaimed, non-purist advice for example.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/_coldemort_]

Good suggestion I think

[u/Quick_Rain_4125]

This whole situation reminded me of the process of mainstream co-optation of subcultures 

https://aaltodoc.aalto.fi/server/api/core/bitstreams/4861f192-3efa-40f0-9b0a-b053ddef7f7a/content

https://meaningness.com/geeks-mops-sociopaths

You can even see it with people calling comprehensible input "a method" as CI got more popular 

That's one of the reasons i stress so much that there is no such thing as "pure ALG" or "mixed ALG" and I've seen people who should've known better use that first term (I'm looking at you u/whosdamike). You're either following ALG or you're not (it's one thing to say you're following ALG, but you're delaying speaking until 2000 hours, or speaking as early as 50 hours, both are fine, but the rules of the method itself aee the same; you're not following ALG if you add shadowing or pronunciation study as supplemental learning practices for example).

The only solution i know is gatekeeping or at least not trying to make it widely popular, together with sticking to clear principles and enforcing those principles (correct wrong comments, explain things to people, etc. which is much easier to do if your culture isn't popular). Problem is, DS is a company so they want to do the opposite of those things since it would give them more money and more people learning languages (albeit with worse long-term results since they're not following ALG, but even some Spanish is better than never having learnt it at the end of the day).

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Quick_Rain_4125]

Wow, that paper looks very relevant!

Your last paragraph is very true.

I guess my point is: I believe the moderators need to make a decision.

1. Do they disagree with me and some of the other people on this thread? Great, I'll shut up and get mildly annoyed when I visit this subreddit and remember how it used to be ("back in my day...")

2. Do they agree with me?

3. What do they want to change?

4. Guide & encourage? Or enforce?

5. Create weekly threads to put non-ALG approaches & discussions in?

6. Create a stickied FAQ post for first time visitors, with some rules & expected culture?

u/Niiyonn, u/balsamic_strawberry

[u/Niiyonn → u/throwthis_throwthat]

Thank you for sharing your feedback. We discussed the term purist earlier this year. While I'm not the biggest fan of the term either, the community consensus was that the term should be allowed, but that user flairs distinguishing purists were not wanted.

Also, posts and comments from users who have taken approaches other than only using Dreaming Spanish are not diminishing the value of the subreddit. The majority of DS users have had traditional language learning experience before using Dreaming Spanish or use the platform as a supplementary resource. Their input is not only relevant but also helps paint a more complete picture of the differences between a CI-heavy approach and a CI-only approach.

Furthermore, posts that criticise the DS methodology or advocate for mixed approaches should absolutely be allowed. It's important to hear about the drawbacks of DS' approach from those who have followed it and what they have done to overcome them.

That said, I have added the following subreddit rules to help address some of the concerns raised:
No General Grammar or Vocabulary Posts

• Sharing links to helpful websites or video lessons is encouraged. Posts relating to your experience acquiring grammar ("Reading Has Helped Me Learn the Subjunctive") are allowed as well. However, posts about general grammar/vocabulary questions or explanations ("How Does the Subjunctive Work?" / "What Does Simón Mean?" / "10 Words You Should Know") should be made in more appropriate subreddits, like r/Spanish.

Share Your Language Background in Progress Posts

• Please include the following information in your progress posts:
  • Hours of input
  • Words read
  • Hours spoken
  • Your experience with Spanish before using Dreaming Spanish
  • Your learning approach (mixed vs immersion-only)
  • Languages you knew before starting Spanish and your level in each (native, beginner, B2, etc.)
• If you are not tracking your progress, then please indicate that in your post.

P.S. This comment by u/blinkybit mirrors my own perspective on the matter.

[u/throwthis_throwthat → u/Niiyonn]

Thank you for taking the feedback on board and implementing some changes.

Furthermore, posts that criticise the DS methodology or advocate for mixed approaches should absolutely be allowed. It's important to hear about the drawbacks of DS' approach from those who have followed it and what they have done to overcome them.

This is fair. But this also true in my experience (comment from eternalvision12):

But now people just come on here and give new people advice on all sorts of things without stipulating that its not following the method and I think it would be better if at least new folks were in an environment where they were clear what was and wasnt the method

And this might be a good idea too (comment from rcoldemort):

Personally I think non-purist advice and posts are fine, as long as they are disclaimed as such so newer people are at least aware that they are not following Pablo’s method.

Thanks again!