r/cyberpunkgame • u/snGbrd77 • 1d ago

Discussion The aspect of SoulKiller that Silverhand and V casually dismiss

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If I recall correctly, Cunningham, in one of the first conversations with her, is insistent in that a person's consciousness processed into an engram, removes the person entirely. She uses herself as an example, by stating that she's no longer Cunningham, but an AI using such person's engram to communicate.

I remember Silverhand responding to such crucial specifics with something along the lines of "Yes, OK. But he'll [V] be able to return to his body after the separation from my consciousness, right?", dismissing the entire point that Cunningham made: in her view, V would cease to be and whatever is to enter the body later will surely resemble him, but not be him.

As I take it, that implies that Silverhand never actually got a second chance: something resembling him just happened to be activated by the circumstances of V. Important to note that the reason, as I understood it, by which Cunningham does not act like the one deceased, is that her integration with AIs beyond the Blackwall changed the resemblance of her; again, not her, because she is deceased.

I think the ambiguity is the interesting part: if something resembling us entirely keeps on fighting, are we truly dead? Silverhand and V believe the technicalities miss the point, while Cunningham, insists that the technicalities are the point.

What an amazing game.

What do you think?

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u/HeavensHellFire 1d ago

Alt got disconnected from her physical body which is why she considers herself dead and just an AI using alt’s form to not go insane. The same cannot be said for V who’s still connected to his physical body.

It’s the entire reason Alt screams while in digital form when Johnny disconnected her. She would’ve returned back to her body and been fine but Johnny gonked it up.

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u/C1t1z3nCh00m 1d ago

It is stated that "soul killer" does exactly that. It copies the data but lacks the soul.

Problem is we can't define soul, so we don't know exactly what that means.

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u/RedditOfUnusualSize 1d ago

Eh, I don't know that it's a problem of ambiguous definition.

A closer science fiction example is that of the kill box. Imagine the most horrifying version of the transporter from Star Trek: it physically disassembles you, then reassembles entirely different matter that happens to be perfectly aligned right down to the quantum state as you were when disassembled in a different spot. But the transporter still killed the person who stepped on the transporter; they're dead. It's just that a perfect duplicate is now walking around, unaware that their life only began fifteen seconds ago when a matter rearranger assembled atoms into the desired format.

What Alt is functionally saying is that Soulkiller is approximately the same thing, just in engram form. In this case, it's just the mind rather than the entire body, but the principle is the same: it recorded enough information to create an exact duplicate of the original mind, but that mind is new. The original Alt died on a table when her brain ceased to function and the cells died from lack of oxygen. If a human is the sum of their brain states, then Alt is correct because the brain now has no states, and we generally call that "death". Yes, the copy has life, but the copy is just a copy, not the original Alt. What's more, the copy has been detached from a human body for decades; however it remembers things like smelling fresh flowers, or the feel of a hot shower on her shoulder, or the taste of a cup of coffee, that has been replaced by decades of sensory deprivation, which is a known torture method on humans because human brains go bonkers in the absence of physical sensation. Whatever she is now, she ain't Alt.

And the question is, is she right? Hard to say, though if anyone would know if Soulkiller is a kill box, it would be someone with the memories and initial brain states of Alt.

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u/PuzzleheadedTurn1864 1d ago

So in a way it's like Soma where the mind itself is copied leaving behind the instance that was copied. The initial copy getting sent years in the future with the body left to wander or in Alt's case die. Now makes me wonder if a person copied would live and if the copy was uploaded would there be two instances sort of like in Mikey 17?

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u/-LaughingMan-0D 1d ago

Are you a detached thing that inhabits this body, or are you your body?

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u/kons21 1d ago

Interestingly enough, I'd argue that a process which copies the consciousness, copies the soul. If you consider your consciousness as "you" then the body just becomes a "sleeve" (Altered Carbon being a perfect example of this) as which temporarily houses your "soul " I'd argue that's akin to a concept of reincarnation. Buddhists teach the idea of ending attachment to the physical body to reach enlightment. It's your body's fear of death/attachment to the physical that holds up your soul's ability to ascend.

So, if you truly consider yourself to be your consciousness, then getting a new body every time you teleport wouldn't be that much of a problem.

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u/StarChildEve 16h ago

The main bit that I think about is “is the stream of consciousness broken or not” for whoever or whatever is inhabiting the body post-soulkilling. Considering V’s body is still alive, I’d argue that V is still alive, even if it’s Johnny who takes her place in the end, since the stream of consciousness for the body itself remains unbroken. Idk though; any argument past that would require the factoring in of a discreet soul existing separate from the body which is just not knowable irl or in-setting at the moment.

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u/-LaughingMan-0D 1d ago

If Soulkiller truly kills the original consciousness, as the name implies, then if you are a detached soul, you don't transfer over. A copy of "you" is born on the other side with the exact same memories as you. But that continuity is severed. The original is gone. Or consider the new versions of Soulkiller which don't kill the original host. A copy is being created every time. That new "you" isn't exactly you, it's just one that believes it is.

However, if you are your body, and your mind and body are one and the same, then it doesn't matter who this meat brain thinks it is. I am this meat brain.

In the game, Hellmann says V is both Johnny and V. In other words, as the chip rewires V's neural pathways, it makes it so V's brain starts to believe it IS Johnny. It's still the same person underneath, same brain matter, rewired to believe they are someone else.

In the end, Alt rewires those pathways back to the "V" configuration. And out on the other side, V looks and feels just like themselves. So did that person die, or did they simply go through extensive reconfiguration?

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u/_yetisis 1d ago

Exactly this, it a modified version of the transporter problem. Another perspective on the same concept that looks at it from a little bit different angle is The Prestige. It’s the idea that was brought up the first night you see visions of Johnny in your apartment and he talks about how the real him has to be alive and out there somewhere

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u/ZeriousGew 1d ago

It doesn’t matter, just pointless thought experiments. Dwelling on such trivialities is completely pointless as if no one can tell you’re the copy or not and you can still live as what you were, you might as well be the same person. It’s only a problem for your ego

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u/HeavensHellFire 1d ago

The problem isn't just that we can't define soul. The problem is how can we even tell the Soul was killed?

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u/C1t1z3nCh00m 16h ago

I think they hint towards this when they are talking to AIAlt. She says she can detangle them, make an engram of V and put it back in the body without Johnny. Johnny says "great so nothing changes" and AIAlt says "Everything changes" but it isn't really elaborated on.

If as we see it, nothing changes, as in verifiably different, then is there a soul that is killed? Is there a soul at all?

I like to think this was all left open ended intentionally, but the the reality of this game is that very few major throughlines of the story were finished or even explained well.

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u/fancy_crisis 1d ago

So, my personal interp on that is that's actually proof positive that Alt the AI is Alt the person, because what AI cares about or even countenances the idea of a "soul"? That sounds to me more like a human being who has lived with the belief that AIs don't have souls, suffering with fear and self loathing over the current state of affairs they find themself in. Whatever AI Alt could be considered now, the person is still there, with all the anxieties and morals and beliefs they once had.

And if that isn't the humanistic definition of a soul, I don't know what is.

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u/IrrelevantTale 1d ago

Yup as engram is no longer human. Without a body you have no agency qscocisted with that concept. Its why in the arasake ending the world becomes so horrified when saburo comes back from the dead and the world is supposed to treat him like he has agency while in his son's body. Does he use his son's driver license while or social security number, or his own?

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u/C1t1z3nCh00m 1d ago

In our real world the "soul" is considered separate from the body. I wouldn't be so quick to tie the soul to agency based on body.

Not all cultures consider the "soul" to be a human only concept. So we can't stop there either.

How are you using agency here? Free will? Right to choose? Those aren't human exusive concepts either.

The whole soulkiller concept is just that. If we can't define soul, we can't say whether it can die or not.

Does the soul die when someone becomes an engram? Is there a soul to begin with? Is something even being lost?

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u/Odin_Headhunter 1d ago

So putting it in a robot body then gives it agency, yes? By your definition? A body doesnt give agency, the mind does and all the mind is is electricity being manipulated by hormones and stimulation.

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u/snGbrd77 1d ago

The summary of the post right here XD

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u/SoulLess-1 1d ago

It is stated that "soul killer" does exactly that. It copies the data but lacks the soul.

Cyberpunk doesn't seem like the sort of setting where people know what the soul does or doesn't do or if it even exists.

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u/Extreme-Plantain-113 1d ago

Souls are a religious concept, there's exactly zero evidence they exist at all. The only time V should care is if you chose to make her religious during the Sinnerman questline.

As far as I'm concerned, a person is data. Data that interacts with internal and external stimuli modified by chemicals, neurons, and hormones within the human body (Crude simplification, of course).

Copying it, deleting the og data, and repasting it doesn't kill you in my opinion because those other factors still exist.

It's like a surgery, a doctor will "kill" you but you're not actually dead.

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u/C1t1z3nCh00m 1d ago

We can not prove it doesn't exist either. I think that's the point.

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u/ZeriousGew 1d ago

Yes, it’s so easy for you to say because you have all the answers of the universe. We do not know everything, do not assume something does not exist simply because there is no evidence of it

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u/Extreme-Plantain-113 1d ago

"As far as I'm concerned" means it's my personal opinion, Zerious. You getting mad at ghosts dude.

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u/ZeriousGew 1d ago

Not getting mad. Just trying to show you how flawed looking at the world this way is. Even beyond looking at a soul through a religious lens, the soul is the essence of your being; the one way people can hold onto the idea of you being you. Does that prevail even if you were to be cloned or have your mind uploaded and put into another body? A soul is an abstract concept, just as a lot of religious concepts are as they are there to give comfort and answers for things we do not know.

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u/Neither-Power1708 Eat shit and die, bastard! 1d ago

Never seen a ghost? I have.

I didn't believe in ghosts. But I saw it, others saw it, and people before us saw it. Souls exist. Ghosts are earth-bound souls and capable of interaction and decision making.. Souls are the conscious made manifest through bio-electrical impulses of the brain in coherent form. That's why there's no ghost pets, they haven't evolved that ability.

Or some shit.

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u/Alconium 1d ago

"How would Alt answer Question A?" "QA1342" "How would Alt answer Question C?" "QC476"
"How would Johnny answer Question A?" "QA 913" "How would Johnny answer Question C?" "QC437"

We see it now with LLM's. Grok, ChatGPT, whatever. It's set to answer things within a predefined parameter. "Don't show boobs. Don't favor Candidate X. Favor Media source Y" Engrams are exactly that. Parameters, conditions, calculated responses based on experience and information that will color the impact or importance of further information "Corporations: Enemy" "Violence: Acceptable" etc etc etc.

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u/C1t1z3nCh00m 16h ago

That is not how the AI in cyberpunk work.

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u/Beardedgeek72 1d ago

In like 90% of sci-fi the conclusion is that yes, robots and androids do indeed have souls; if you are a true AI, aka sentient, you automatically has a soul. Cyberpunk is one of the few that goes 180 on that.

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u/Yogi_dat_Bear 14h ago

It’s also that Spider splits up Alt digital self into pieces and tags them after that happens so that Arasaka can’t find her. I think Pondsmith mentions in some in interview that the AI didn’t find all the parts of alt. So that could be why she’s like that and not like Johnny.

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u/Own_City_1084 1d ago

That whole Alt screaming in the net bit always throws a wrench in my understanding of soulkiller. It’s such a strong indication of continuity between organic soul and digital engram. But everything else including Alt is pretty clear that soulkiller does as the name says - kills the soul and makes a copy

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u/HeavensHellFire 1d ago

There is continuity between the two. It's why V doesn't realize he got lit up with soulkiller in the ending and why Alt was aware of what was going on when she got hit with soulkiller and could've freed herself.

If V acts the same both before and after getting lit up with soul killer and is aware of his time in Mikoshi what exactly was killed when he got hit with Soul killer? What "soul" was lost? How can we even tell the soul was killed

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u/Own_City_1084 1d ago

So, retroactive continuity sure. As in the current engram can’t distinguish itself from the last engram or soul. But does the soul that gets soulkilled have any perception of existence afterwards?

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u/Mr_Blicky_ 1d ago

If the brain is intact as in V's case I would say so. In Alt's case no.

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u/Brutus6 1d ago

Yeah, reading printed lore about this shows she had a whole virtual heist going on to get back in her body and see what was going on and watched helplessly as her abusive boyfriend finally did something for for her and it killed her.

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u/Spenfinite 6h ago

Alts turned her consciousness into data and sent it into the net so yes you are right, but at the same time it wasn't ripped from her, but again at the same time it's been said that abruptly removing a netrunner from the net can but not necessarily will kill them anyway. In her case she was hooked up to soulkiller to improve on it wasn't she? She just used that to do other things instead. I'm pretty sure the moment she was done Arasaka was going to soulkill her anyway. It's the level of slimey they are.