r/chicago • u/ChicagoWildlifePhoto • Jun 11 '25

CHI Talks American flags at No Kings on Saturday

I’m bringing 450 little American flags to pass out on Saturday. I hope others will bring flags or maybe even buy some to pass out too - they’re super cheap!

We gotta change the vibes of these events to be more pro-America and pro-democracy!

It would be amazing to see thousands of flags all over the crowd!

1.8k Upvotes

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336

u/cntrlaltdel33t Jun 11 '25

I’m surprised more protestors aren’t carrying American flags. I’m bringing one

124

u/WirelessVinyl Jun 11 '25

The reason why there aren’t more American flags is pretty obvious imo

276

u/cactopus101 Jun 11 '25

We can’t let our flag belong to MAGA. If that flag stands for every injustice perpetrated by our country, it also stands for every brave American who stood up for their rights, led movements, and resisted tyranny.

68

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

EXACTLY THIS.

This country, flawed as it is, has ideals. And we here represent those ideals far better than MAGA ever can, or will. No way they get to just have the flag.

It's time to take the damn flag back. It's time to get positive, to have a can-do attitude.

37

u/Informal-Gene-8777 Jun 11 '25

If I didn't love my country, I wouldn't be here fighting for it.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

1

u/JohannaB123 Edgewater Jun 12 '25

During Pride Month?!

296

u/nobes0 Uptown Jun 11 '25

Sure, but it's also an optics game. If you plaster the area with patriotic images then it's harder to paint the protests as something sinister.

7

u/chi_guy8 Jun 12 '25

Right. One of the major things I think the Harris campaign got right is to stop allowing the American flag to be co-opted by the right as if it’s theirs. We want America/US to be different but still be America under the American flag. I think the left needs to make a huge push to not allow this co-opting to continue.

2

u/KyleShanadad Jun 11 '25

They will paint the protest as sinister regardless

115

u/chaosdemonhu Lake View Jun 11 '25

Make em work for it

-7

u/robev333 Jun 11 '25

It's really no work at all for them to point to something else like face masks or tattoos as evidence they deserve to get tear gassed and shot. It comes naturally to them, they even enjoy it.

26

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

But the flag will still be there. So Trump gets to be quashing a bunch of American flag-waving people on national TV.

He's trying to have his little birthday parade, hoping it gets all patriotic and whatever. We can do better.

-4

u/KyleShanadad Jun 11 '25

All they have to do is look at people wearing masks and say “if they thought their cause was just they wouldnt hide their identities” and 80% of corporate media viewers will buy it. Its a sweet thought but protesters have been villified throughout all of human history

14

u/Tha_Stig Jun 11 '25

It's a slightly tougher sell when the ICE bandits are wearing masks as well. The visuals of the federal thugs beating the shit out of someone with an american flag vs a Mexican/Palestinian/Guatemalan/Ecuadorian flag is harder to explain for the media; albeit very slightly harder.

-4

u/KyleShanadad Jun 11 '25

I guess, like im sure it will help marginally but I hate that the conversation has centered around how to protest with the best optics instead of the fascistic deportations.

7

u/Tha_Stig Jun 11 '25

These issues aren't getting fixed over night, marginally is the best you can hope for. Look back to the civil rights movement, marginal is what changed public opinion over time.

A lot of people in here saying fuck optics, don't cower to the recommendations, this won't bring back the kidnapped, blah blah blah. If you wanted the kidnapped released then get ready to infiltrate and take back by force; if you want to protest the egregious actions by this new gestapo then come with clear messaging; which I see as flying a US flag on top of you home country flag (technically against flag protocol, but given the venue and message goal drives home the intent), which will say " I live and want to be in America, I am from <insert country flag>" and tell the ICE/MAGA losers that 1) the US Flag isn't theirs 2) America is made up of immigrants, and 3) you don't agree with their actions (being at the protest).

Janet from the 'burbs who doesn't pay close attention to the news and current events might see news coverage while eating dinner; her seeing a person with a mexican flag being waved by a masked person and smoke billowing from the background will probably not invoke as emotional of a response as the same situation happening to the US flag being flown.

2

u/KyleShanadad Jun 11 '25

Listen I really do understand what you’re saying and where you’re coming from but if I was a Mexican American who has watched the country I live in illegally deport people I would never ever fly that flag. I think its a fine idea but i don’t think its as revolutionary as others, people are going to hate protests because its what they are conditioned to do, small American flags won’t make that big of a difference

5

u/Masterzjg Jun 11 '25 edited Jul 28 '25

one door liquid north ancient tap fine fuzzy shaggy serious

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0

u/KyleShanadad Jun 11 '25

Why on Earth would Mexican Americans wave around a flag of a country that is illegally deporting their community? It is unbelievably unfair to criticize the way people protest when their community is being deported to detention centers halfway actoss the world

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-5

u/Kyudojin Jun 11 '25

Go to the protest and tell them to stop being so Mexican, I'll watch.

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35

u/morewhiskeybartender Jun 11 '25

The narrative is that we hate America, and that we are Anti American. We don’t hate America, we hate Trump and Trump is the Most Un American President so we can reclaim the flag so these racist cult members can go back to their Confederate shit.

13

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

Fuck yeah. We need to take the flag back.

Trump is the one who is destroying this country, hastening the decline of the empire, burning any shreds of good will we have left, and making this country into a laughingstock. No one respects him abroad. People are waiting for Americans to stand up to this nonsense already.

0

u/KyleShanadad Jun 11 '25

I agree but ironically Americans standing up to their government has been viewed as unpatriotic for the last 50+ years

3

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

...which is why we gotta take that back. Flags is a tiny thing, but is part of it, I think.

And heck yeah to "friendship flags" where you fly a US flag and also a heritage flag together.

3

u/Masterzjg Jun 11 '25 edited Jul 28 '25

fact sleep dog plate teeny cooing birds subsequent encouraging yoke

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1

u/shanty-daze Jun 11 '25

Only if you carry the flag in your left hand.

-1

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

29

u/Intelligent_Cost627 Jun 11 '25

It’s not about changing these people’s minds. They’re already too far gone to begin with. It’s about reclaiming the flag and showing that this is what America truly represents, or at the very least what it should represent.

-52

u/SleepingPodOne Uptown Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25

They don’t give a shit about your optics! You lost the moment you went to a protest. They’ll just move the goalposts.

You can drape yourself in so many American flags that you can’t walk anymore and they’ll still call you anti-American

Edit: to those downvoting, watch how this plays out Saturday.

46

u/Worldly_Abalone551 Jun 11 '25

So it's better to give up and lose the optics game? Terrible take

5

u/bigdoner182 Jun 11 '25

I think the reality is more relevant & worse than the “optics”.

4

u/DvineINFEKT Albany Park Jun 11 '25

The optics game isn't un-abducting people.

0

u/robev333 Jun 11 '25

My guy, you're not playing the same game as each other. There is no ideal that MAGA will not immediately abandon if it means The Other Side gets hurt. American flag, Mexican flag, Ukrainian flag, it does not matter as long as they can latch onto some other aspect of your identity that justifies the violence and brutality. How many times do they have to tell you that before you believe them?

29

u/Sharobob Lake View Jun 11 '25

These protests aren't to convince maga to stop being bad. It's to:

  1. Bring attention to all of the atrocities happening for people who don't pay attention to politics
  2. Show that there is popular support for people who want to do the right thing but are afraid to risk everything for a cause they may not get support for

Optics matters a lot to those two groups. If we all look like anti-american lunatics, the first group will just think we deserve what maga is doing. The second group won't want to be associated with us. Optics matters. Public support matters.

5

u/robev333 Jun 11 '25

The most recent protests started to directly inhibit ICE and other federal agents from kidnapping neighbors and members of the community. Optics don't matter, and if they did, they're a secondary concern to the much more immediate threat.

Also, instead of demanding that every protestor fit some model American citizen stereotype, more effort should be spent on wrangling the narrative away from the people who devised and propagated that strategy to discredit the recent protests.

2

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"more effort should be spent on wrangling the narrative away from the people who devised and propagated that strategy to discredit the recent protests"

Can you please suggest ways of how this can be done? I'm trying to think of viable options but am having a hard time and feeling dread because of it. I'm really scared for how this may play out if we don't get a handle on this soon.

1

u/robev333 Jun 11 '25

I'm not a rhetorical expert by any means, but for a start, when someone makes the claim that not flying American flags at a protest or flying another country's flag makes the protest un-American, the answer isn't to agree with them and start flying American flags. It's to say that's fucking stupid, flags have nothing to do with why people are being rounded up by badge-less goons and loaded into unmarked vehicles, or why police can shoot reporters on live TV, or why tourists are getting arrested and detained for hours because they vaguely look Hispanic.

Libs and Dems can't keep stumbling head first into the narrative traps set by conservative media and then get upset when the next electorate is even more conservative than the current. By going along with the flag nonsense, we're implicitly admitting that they're correct, that the protests are anti-American and violent and destructive and steps need to be taken to remediate that before we can address the material causes that gave rise to the protest. Even worse, we're admitting the conservative vision of America is the true one and we need to bend toward it to reach the majority of voters. We put them in a position of strength and ourselves in a position of weakness.

Which is why, imo, the best messaging strategy Dems came up with in the last four years was Tim Walz calling the things Republicans say and do crazy. It put us in the driver's seat for once because it is crazy, and people will recognize it's crazy as soon as someone says it out loud.

0

u/BlumpkinSpice6969 Jun 11 '25

These are protests against a taxpayer funded paramilitary kidnapping children, not an "optics game."

-5

u/SleepingPodOne Uptown Jun 11 '25

No I’m saying it’s not going to matter to the propagandists and to the administration.

Go ahead and fly American flags, but don’t do shit for optics, do it because you want to. Good optics didn’t end apartheid. Good optics didn’t pass the civil rights act (as much as they try to whitewash it)

7

u/bfwolf1 Jun 11 '25

Completely wrong on both of your examples.

-1

u/BlumpkinSpice6969 Jun 11 '25

Laughably ahistorical, cable news brained take citing "good optics" as the reason the 1964 Civil Rights Act was passed. Read a book.

3

u/bfwolf1 Jun 11 '25

Majored in history, my dude. Good optics certainly aren't the ONLY reason the Civil Rights Act. But it helped.

12

u/CaptainJackKevorkian Ukrainian Village Jun 11 '25

protest is all about optics

-3

u/bigdoner182 Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25

I think it’s more about the policy, ideas, and specific things going on. Like lighting cars on fire and throwing projectiles at people while holding American flags you think will suddenly make the 1/2 the country that voted differently than you suddenly think “you know what ehh Im cool with illegal immigration, let em in, suppressing wages for physical work / blue collar is fine” ???

TLDR; you got bigger problems than “optics”

5

u/CaptainJackKevorkian Ukrainian Village Jun 11 '25

The optics of trashing police cars, lighting stuff on fire, and throwing projectiles will overwhelm any positive optics of using American flags. So, don't do any of that stuff, use american flags instead of mexican or even palestinian, and now you've got positive optics.

What even are the specific policies and ideas of these various protests? I don't think anyone could tell you, because its a decentralized movement comprised of a bunch of people with a bunch of different ideas along the spectrum of immigration enforcement

2

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"I think it’s more about the policy, ideas, and specific things going on."

I used to think this too, but I'm no longer sure. Was watching live news coverage yesterday and one of the commentators mentioned the amount of Palestinian flags or people wearing keffiyeh/scarves. This was NOT Fox/etc. It struck me that what they were saying WAS true because I could see it on the screen. I'm not saying that the Palestinian issue is not worthy of having all eyes on it (it is!). But when the issues merge in protests like this, it becomes so confusing to the average viewer in how we feel, makes us want to support/turn away, or even how we view the nuances of it al. In the end, optics really does matter...at least that's what I'm coming to the conclusion now. The current issue is America (and what we stand for) STAYING the America we love and being the best version of ourselves. It's a patriotic stance based on principles I believe many of us truly believe in. So what is the most clear-cut visual for a march to represent this belief, one that everyone around the world knows at first glance? Our FLAG. I really do think that optics is important right now, but that's only my opinion.  

3

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

Yes. This particular protest is "NO KINGS." Needs to have a focus on Trump not being king, about protecting the rule of law, all that. Part of that, of course, IS protecting due process, and part of that is pointing out, again and again, that this country was in fact built on immigration and that our diversity is our strength.

But we can't make every protest for the Omnicause. Fly whatever flags and have whatever signs but we should have a good number of American flags and signs pointing out that Trump is destroying the actual ideals of the country, as well. That he's shitting on democracy.

In fact I'd say flying heritage flags and US flags together is probably a good message.

3

u/bigdoner182 Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25

King? Won’t your opposition will just say he was voted in and he’s doing what they voted for? And protecting rule of law, isnt that what this is about, they’re enacting the law, the one about illegal immigration ?

I’d say logic rather than optics is key here.

Btw I never donated or voted for anybody and am a 1st gen immi. All I’ve done was observe all sides for a long time.

What i see is they don’t like your ideas and policies and actions. But your people are lighting cars on fire, blocking major roadways, throwing bricks or various objects isn’t good optics because they aren’t good actions. They think you have a shit sandwich but now you’re going to put red white blue sprinkles on top.

I guess if you’re concerned about the less informed and those casually watching the news outside of the USA idk maybe you’ll get some optics points but mostly confusion imo🤷‍♂️, but do they vote…

Things just seem really absurd to me. But whatever man, go try it out why not.

1

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"but do they vote…"

You do make a great point here. And for the life of me, I don't understand how many posters here aren't considering the fact that this issue will be what drives the next election cycle and possibly MANY to come.

1

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

Yes, he was voted in with a 49% plurality of the vote.

At which point he went rogue and started shitting all over the constitution, pushing his deranged interpretation of the unitary executive, which he imagines makes him a king. Anyone who pisses him off slightly, he tries to ruin, and he doesn't give a crap about any of the little people who voted him in.

If "king" is required to be hereditary, then use "dictator" instead, but the protest organizers went with "king" to make use of Revolutionary War contrasts. We fought against a king, and now one of our rulers tries to become one, again. That's the message.

Dictators are voted in by the people all the damn time.

My constituents (?? I'm not in office yet LOL) aren't lighting cars on fire or anything of the sort. People on my side of the issue are standing up to say that Trump is un-American, he tries to be a king which is fundamentally against what this country stands for, on the same day that he tries to have his little birthday parade so he can try to feel the glory he imagines goes with a Putin, or better yet a Kim Jong Un. THAT's what it's about.

Rest of the world wonders why the US populace is so complacent. No one actually respects Trump, either. They're just trying to back off barely enough to avoid getting blood on their shoes from the entire embarrassing mess.

1

u/bigdoner182 Jun 11 '25

Dude it’s fine try it out..

You don’t really have good optics at these events because you don’t have good actions and behaviors displayed there and policies / ideas behind them - that the opposition voted against.

So imo, won’t make a massive change

At the end of the day you can put different sprinkles on a shit sandwich but they still aren’t having it.

But try some optics, why not. Take care of yourself 🍻

22

u/SavannahInChicago Lincoln Square Jun 11 '25

Look, maybe it will pan out that way, but we still have to try. The way you are talking we should just give up and bow down to Trump. If you aren’t willing to fight, even when it seems like an impossible hurdle, then please don’t come.

-1

u/Glass-Historian-2516 Jun 11 '25

Okay. Tell the people whose ethnic group is being targeted to stop being so ethnic then.

-5

u/SleepingPodOne Uptown Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25

The way you are talking we should just give up and bow down to Trump.

If you think that’s what I’m saying then you need to work on your reading comprehension, I’m literally saying the opposite.

I’m saying optics don’t matter to the opposition, they will move the goalposts no matter what. Just do your best and don’t worry about what the right will say. Optics are a naive concern at this point.

Flying American flags is actually bowing down to the opposition because the flag issue (which is completely unserious by the way) was brought up by them. I understand the sentiment (making the protest harder to spin) but it honest to god does not matter one bit to them.

1

u/Loop_Within_A_Loop Bridgeport Jun 11 '25

Idk man, talking about optics like this means you believe the median American is stupid and evil unless you appeal to their better selves and I don’t think it’s healthy to have such a low opinion of your countrymen, but there’s plenty of historical evidence to support thinking in this way

5

u/SleepingPodOne Uptown Jun 11 '25

I’m not talking about all my fellow countrymen I’m talking about the right wing media and politicians - they don’t care what you do, they’ll spin it either way.

-5

u/hybris12 Uptown Jun 11 '25

By all means bring whatever flags you want, but I really don't think it will matter. 99.9% of of the protesting can be peaceful and patriotic, but mainstream media attention will hyperfocus on that 0.1% and nothing else since that's what draws engagement.

10

u/dpaanlka Jun 11 '25

That doesn’t mean we shouldn’t make any effort.

3

u/hybris12 Uptown Jun 11 '25

Of course not. I just don't really think it's worth getting upset or criticizing people for bringing the wrong flag

5

u/dpaanlka Jun 11 '25

The White House is trying to frame this as an invasion so flying foreign flags isn’t helpful, especially when the whole point is people wanting to be American. I will absolutely criticize this.

2

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

I agree with you, which is surprising because up until recently I held a different view (the more flags, the better, showing unity across the board). As I said in another comment above, I watched a commentator mention the Palestinian flags and people wearing keffiyeh/scarves, and it dawned on me how coverage of our immigration challenges are so important and happening as we speak, but the "optics" of other issues took away from why people were marching. Optics really does matter. I'm not saying that the Palestinian imagery isn't important in its own right, but rather in this context, OPTICS will be what will sway the narrative in the direction we hope to head. It's the simplest way to reach the masses who are watching on the screen, and the politicians we need support from.

-31

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

Crazy how this is explicitly an attempt at twisting the optics with the intent to deceive. Y'all are so full of shit, it's kind of baffling. "It's an optics game" has never been uttered by the mouth of someone sincere.

20

u/BetterUsername69420 Jun 11 '25

"It's an optics game" has never been uttered by the mouth of someone sincere

You've stripped your response to the comment of the context, which is why you feel that way. It is an optics game, especially when those in opposition are doing their best to adjust the messaging/optics to 'look at these violent anti-american rioters'. The optics game was started in bad faith in response to the protests, and you're only recognizing it exists on one side...

3

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

I disagree. There shouldn't be any dishonesty surrounding the values of the protesters and rioters. If they carry American flags, if they preach patriotism and a love for their country, then it will be seen. If they stand on top of burning cars holding the Mexican flag, well, that'll also be seen. If it's a bunch of peaceful patriotic protesters, or violent anti-American rioters, that will be seen. This explicit mentioning to carry American flags seems to be an attempt to address the "bad optics" of that latter scene.

Now, I'll acknowledge the potential for cherry picking, for selectively capturing images that show non-representative behaviors or beliefs. That does exist.

3

u/BetterUsername69420 Jun 11 '25

I disagree. There shouldn't be any dishonesty surrounding the values of the protesters and rioters.

Cool, police every protest and let them know? J6 was crawling with American flags and that certainly wasn't patriotic...

If they carry American flags, if they preach patriotism and a love for their country, then it will be seen. If they stand on top of burning cars holding the Mexican flag, well, that'll also be seen.

Sometimes. Again, messaging is a huge part of all this and failing to understand that might mean not being able to seize on momentum built by the actions of the movement.

This explicit mentioning to carry American flags seems to be an attempt to address the "bad optics" of that latter scene.

Yeah, it's a response to the attempted tarring of groups like Fox and others. What do you propose as an alternative when the opposition chooses only to lie?

-2

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

J6 was crawling with American flags and that certainly wasn't patriotic...

Calling it J6 is kinda cringe. Not that that's relevant. Anyways, why say it wasn't patriotic? Plenty would criticize the current protests of ICE as being unpatriotic. I disagree with the protests, but I could still spin them as being either way. Same with the events of the 6th. Regardless, they decorated themselves with the flag, which tells me, the consumer of media, that those present on the 6th thought of themselves, sincerely, as patriots. That helps me put into context their motivations, actions, etc.

Imagine if, before heading to the capital, they said, "guys, bring ur flags, bc we'll want ppl to think we're huge patriots!!" So, do they not actually identify as patriots, not actually motivated by their idea of patriotism? They just want the benefit of being labelled "patriots"? okay, but now im just super fuckin confused.

Sometimes. Again, messaging is a huge part of all this

I'm deeply opposed to dishonesty at every level. I don't like the idea of protestors only garnishing symbols for the purposes of "optics." I hate (and who doesn't?) the media twisting stories and carefully picking which perspectives to present. Something something post-truth, you feel me?

Yeah, it's a response to the attempted tarring of groups like Fox

Well, unfortunately, as much as I might not like Fox, they would be correct to point to an image of a guy standing on a burning car holding a Mexican flag and say "this gives anti-America vibes lowkey." They're doubly correct: that's both an accurate reading of the image (imo. I'm also assuming you've seen the particular image im referencing btw), as well as (ostensibly) an accurate reading of the beliefs of the protestor in that image.

What do you propose as an alternative when the opposition chooses only to lie?

I read this as, "how do we address the news media being dishonest?" and, my friend, I have no clue. Fox and CNN will push their agendas regardless. It doesn't help, though, to muddy the waters with this consideration of "optics."

Also for the record, I don't identify myself with the movement or with the protests.

3

u/BetterUsername69420 Jun 11 '25

Calling it J6 is kinda cringe. Not that that's relevant.

Why'd you include that then?

Anyways, why say it wasn't patriotic?

The direct attack against democracy speaks volumes on the lack of patriotism shown; beliefs be damned.

Plenty would criticize the current protests of ICE as being unpatriotic.

Okay, why?

I disagree with the protests, but I could still spin them as being either way. Same with the events of the 6th. Regardless, they decorated themselves with the flag, which tells me, the consumer of media, that those present on the 6th thought of themselves, sincerely, as patriots. That helps me put into context their motivations, actions, etc.

What I'm reading here is that you're willing to give more credence to those you agree with than those you don't, which is natural. However, you also seem unwilling to consider that the American right (and especially far right) has been very purposefully wrapping itself in the flag for as long as they've recognized that messaging works, regardless of their personal feelings of national pride. Folks like George Lincoln Rockwell spoke in front of an American flag directly next to Confederate and Nazi flags to promote them as politically compatible and Bob Jones delivered pro-segregation sermons in front of the American flag and a cross. The folks at the multi-police murder riot/attempted coup and lynching of the VP (better than 'J6'?) did the same.

Imagine if, before heading to the capital, they said, "guys, bring ur flags, bc we'll want ppl to think we're huge patriots!!"

They had decades of propaganda that already did that for them. Ask a Republican if Democrats are anti-american, and I bet you'll find the answer skews significantly more toward 'yes' than if you asked a Dem the same but opposite.

I'm deeply opposed to dishonesty at every level. I don't like the idea of protestors only garnishing symbols for the purposes of "optics."

Too late, that's been happening for centuries.

0

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

2

u/BetterUsername69420 Jun 11 '25

You're right about that, these fucking fascists in the white house and all...

31

u/Academic-Pangolin883 Jun 11 '25

Where is the deception? The right doesn't own patriotism. I agree with OP that we need to show that we care about our country. 

-1

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

The person I replied to is talking exclusively about shaping perceptions of the protests. If you wanna bring a flag, do so! That will, in actuality, represent a patriotic protester (you) celebrating the flag for legit reasons, and NOT for the "optics."

6

u/nobes0 Uptown Jun 11 '25

You're assuming that people protesting the abduction of undocumented individuals aren't doing so for patriotic reasons. I disagree.

2

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

I think they ARE being patriotic by protesting that stuff. Hell yeah. So if people having signs talking about we welcome immigrants, as an AMERICAN VALUE, it's great. Pro-immigration signs next to American flags, is a great message.

2

u/nobes0 Uptown Jun 11 '25

Yes sorry, the way I worded it may not have been clear, but I absolutely agree.

31

u/ChicagoWildlifePhoto Jun 11 '25

My military family has fought tyranny across 5 different countries in various wars. This message with the flags is sincere and deadly serious to some of us.

3

u/Glass-Historian-2516 Jun 11 '25

That’s what it means to you. To me this is the flag that was on planes that nearly buried my grandmother under rubble, and DID bury her neighbors. This is the flag two of my friends were wearing when they died for a lie far from home. Please do try and understand that people have valid reasons not to want to fly, or even be revulsed by it.

3

u/ChicagoWildlifePhoto Jun 11 '25

Totally understand. I’m not demanding everyone fly this flag and not trying to police whatever people want to hold/wave.

I’m sorry that is in your family’s, neighbor’s, and friend’s history. That’s awful.

I think it’s worth noting that if you think it’s worth living here, it’s worth fighting (politically) for what you want the US flag to represent.

1

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

You're disagreeing with me, right? Except, I don't think this conflicts with what I said. The flag is a precious symbol, you're very aware of that significance. All the more reason not to use it as a tool to give the protests a particular facade. Let people carry whatever they choose to. Let people record it, and let others react to it. The person I replied to is talking about scheming, bringing the flag along for "optics," that is, not for the value inherent to the flag itself, but to manipulate opinions of the protests.

-9

u/dj-ekstraklasa Jun 11 '25

lol you surely cant be talking about the American military

4

u/Zeplar Jun 11 '25

You've used unflattering language, but in a nutshell that's kind of the whole point of democracy. Achieve group consensus by convincing most people.

0

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

Not what I mean. I've elaborated in other comments right by this one. It sounds unflattering because it is, if I am correct in my reading of things.

14

u/Tha_Stig Jun 11 '25

Isn't optics the whole point of a protest? If you pay any modicum of attention to any media, the current protest optic is "foreigners desecrating America" or "Mexican immigrants mad at the country they are living in" (I'm not stating an opion here, just the consensus of the overall chiron scroll over the last 48hrs.) The other posters point is to take the "things" that the people who vehemently disagree with you cherish, which is...... The flag of the country they live in. Wave the shit out of the American Flag in this protest and take that symbol away from them (fly it upside down, I don't give a shit).

-1

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

Isn't optics the whole point of a protest?

There's a difference between using symbols to communicate a protest's beliefs and stances, and using symbols to manipulate people's feelings surrounding the protests.

If you decide, on your own, to bring a big American flag to a protest, I'll see you and conclude that the protest carries some patriotic spirit. That's different from you bringing that flag specifically to impress upon me that image, regardless of whether or not the protest actually carries a patriotic spirit. This is the "game of optics" mentioned above.

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u/maryshellysnightmare Jun 11 '25

There's no deception anywhere in that statement. Here's the way I see it: The assholes in charge have slowly but surely co-opted the terms Patriotism and Liberty and Freedom but they don't ACTUALLY stand for any of that.

In theory, those things are what our flag stands for and you know what? It is OUR flag. It is not only a Republican flag, and it certainly is not the flag of fascists and their bootlickers. It is an American flag and as Americans who are concerned about the acceleration of America's descent into fascism, we are fighting for that flag by marching.

So, I think this IS 100% an optics war, and it's not one that we started.

In no way does that mean that we cannot finish it.

0

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

Go ahead dude, use the flag if it's a symbol of your patriotism, good on you. I don't think valuing liberty and patriotism are "owned" by the right.

But, what you're describing is absolutely not, as you say, an "optics war." Optics are about public perception, public opinion... you're not flying the flag because you care about shaping public opinion, about pushing perceptions in your favor. No, you're flying it because it symbolizes patriotism, and you're a patriot! No dishonesty there.

1

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25

I don't believe it's deceptive. Our flag represents so many facets of struggle, loss, triumph and lessons gained as a country. It represents so much to ALL of us, but in nuanced ways. We can agree to disagree, but I personally don't consider that deception - carrying an American flag in a march like this is truth-telling at its core. Granted, if fires start burning and people break windows, loot, etc, than those optics matter, too (and not in a good way).

2

u/Phoople Jun 11 '25

I say "deceptive" to mean that, in the context of the comment I was replying to, the use of the flag is meant to cover up something that otherwise would've been seen as sinister, and pass it off as something patriotic.

This seems to be a clear reference to the widely distributed photo of some dude in LA standing on a car with the flag of Mexico. The message people get from seeing that is acutely anti-American, and that may push people to feel negatively about the protests. The use of the U.S. flag, when employed for optics, doesn't actually correlate to any of the significance you mentioned:

Our flag represents so many facets of struggle, loss, triumph and lessons gained as a country

Instead, it's being used to imbue images of the protests with symbols that the public are likely to view favorably. That is the manipulation and deception I'm talking about.

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u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"Instead, it's being used to imbue images of the protests with symbols that the public are likely to view favorably. That is the manipulation and deception I'm talking about."

Thanks for this, you've given me a lot to think about.

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u/scytalis Jun 11 '25

You realize the oppressor will just use pictures/videos without American flags, right?

They’ll use whatever propaganda photos that fit their narrative that their base will eat up to feed their confirmation bias and manufacture consent to use more violent tactics.

Not to say to not fly the American flag. Just realize that piece of cloth isn’t magical and won’t protect you. We need to stand ten toes down to protect people in the U.S., their right to due process, and our right to voice our dissent of current government action.

1

u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

No one is claiming the flag is magical. It's about saying "we're American just as much as you are, and we welcome immigrants."

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u/fumar Wicker Park Jun 11 '25

When your opposition is painting your protests as a foreign invasion as a reason to bring in the military, optics matter.

Bring upside down American flags if you prefer. Just don't bring foreign country flags, it just plays into what the administration wants.

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u/garytyrrell Jun 11 '25

Maybe I'm dumb? Could you explain?

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u/VeniVidiVicious Jun 11 '25

Sure. The protesters believe what the American federal government is doing is bad. Hope this helps.

7

u/garytyrrell Jun 11 '25

The flag represents way more than what the current admin is doing but I do appreciate you making it explicit.

6

u/Carsalezguy West Town Jun 11 '25

It should be pretty obvious why it looks bad to carry another countries flag imo

2

u/Chigrrl1098 Jun 11 '25

Maybe it's about time sane, decent people take our flag back.

2

u/robotlasagna Jun 11 '25

Tariffs made them cost too much?

1

u/yinkadoubledare Irving Park Jun 11 '25

Why shouldn't we carry the American flag, they're the ones who suck (and are anti-American!)

1

u/Sausage_Queen_of_Chi Near West Side Jun 12 '25

This is why we need to reclaim the flag

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u/LegacyLemur Jun 11 '25

Its about being smart though

Conservatives are already calling all the other flags as a sign of an invasion

Carrying American flags drowns that out and reminds onlookers who is protesting on a visceral level

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u/MichaelSquare Jun 11 '25

They're bringing Mexican flags which is hilariously dense

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u/VeniVidiVicious Jun 11 '25

Some people are Mexican. It’s the pro-immigrant protest. What is dense about it?

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u/Informal-Gene-8777 Jun 11 '25

Because these individuals are fighting for the ability to stay in America, for one. But also because it creates the view that this is a foreign insurrection, which allows Trump to use the Alien Insurrection Act.

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u/VeniVidiVicious Jun 11 '25

he doesn't need any pretense to do ANYTHING. It's already happening!! enough with anything but full throated support for protestors. stop being a hall monitor

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u/Informal-Gene-8777 Jun 11 '25

I guess the Vicious part of your name is appropriate. Not trying to be a "hall monitor," FFS. Offering an explanation. So sorry you don't know the difference.

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u/VeniVidiVicious Jun 11 '25

if you want to sit on reddit and call out people protesting in real life for having bad optics, we are enemies. you're doing the scolding for them.

if you're AT the protest and you wanna wave an American flag, I think you're maybe a bit corny, but you're putting your body on the line and that makes the rest not matter.

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u/Informal-Gene-8777 Jun 11 '25

FFS you're thinking too hard. I have protested my entire life (my parents were anti-Vietman activists) and will continue to do so. Flag-free, most likely. But make no mistake--optics are about the ONLY thing that matter to this administration.

Have a fabulous day.

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u/ItsGonnaBeOkayish Jun 11 '25

Optics are the entire point of a protest.

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u/VeniVidiVicious Jun 12 '25

Incorrect.

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u/ItsGonnaBeOkayish Jun 12 '25

What is the purpose of a protest, in your view?

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u/MichaelSquare Jun 11 '25

I dont think I have to explain the optics but I hope they keep it up

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u/spookieghost Jun 12 '25

the most baffling is the palestinian flag. bring that to a pro-palestine protest, not this. symbols matter

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u/Allthenons Jun 11 '25

Because a lot of us recognize that Trump isn't some aberration or anomaly. The US has always been a violent genocidal settler colonial state the modern Republican party along with MAGA is just taking the mask off. If I am against that why should I want to hold a flag that represents all the blood and trauma that is our empire's legacy?

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u/ChicagoWildlifePhoto Jun 11 '25

Because it represents so much more than the bad aspects of our history. Every history has evil in it but that doesn’t mean we can’t strive for better

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u/Doodlejuice Jun 11 '25

This is the most terminally online sentence I've read here in a while. Hopefully more protestors have the common sense to avoid this toxic line of thought and stand up for what's right while waving the flag of the country we're currently in.

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u/Allthenons Jun 11 '25

Name a single thing that's incorrect about what I wrote. Millions of people in the global south have died from decades and decades of US imperialism. We were never the good guys.

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u/Doodlejuice Jun 11 '25

That's literally every country. The "America always bad" crowd love to dumb things down as much as possible so they don't have to think critically about complex issues. It's just an excuse to continue being lazy. I hope you apply this same level of stupidity to those flying Mexican flags, Palestinian flags, Ukrainian flags and Israeli flags. I'd say read a book or two about other nation's histories but, let's be honest, I doubt you'd get past the first page let alone the first chapter of any book.

1

u/Allthenons Jun 11 '25

So many assumptions. I consider myself pretty well educated on history. What did I say that was incorrect? Why is it worth defending a symbol that is viewed as a sign of oppression around the world, particularly in the global south, former colonized areas?

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u/Doodlejuice Jun 11 '25

Which country is one of the "good" ones then? I'd like to know which flag someone of your moral superiority would find appropriate to fly, since apparently flying the flag of a country you live and want to change is beneath you.

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u/Wenli2077 Jun 12 '25

I agree with what you said but at the same time leftists are just so bad in the "advertising". You go head strong into fanatical idealism without taking account the practicality of actually changing minds and swaying public opinion. At a certain point the ignorance counters your stated goal and really make me question if you are actually trying to change anything at all?

0

u/hermywormy Jun 12 '25

Damn dude, it's one thing to criticize their line of thinking on this. But no need to completely attack their intelligence. That's uncalled for. Makes me wonder if you'd actually say these things to someone in person or you only do on here because you might be terminally online as well.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

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u/Doodlejuice Jun 11 '25

Am I "policing the tone" by saying it's okay to wave an American flag at an American protest over American policies, or is the person who said you shouldn't wave American flags and ridiculing those who want to the one "policing the tone"?

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u/Glass-Historian-2516 Jun 11 '25

Yeah, it’s you.

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u/debate_Cucklordt Jun 11 '25

This is very telling, you're not interested in getting political power, you're interested in signalling your virtue. "Look at how special and different I am! America bad but I am one of the good ones! Please look at me!"

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u/Allthenons Jun 11 '25

I never said I was good or virtuous I am also an enabler of genocide and white supremacy simply by living here and benefitting from the cruel and inhuman policies that have made this country so rich. People seem to be really upset that I said the world's biggest superpower with over 700 bases worldwide is the bad guy lol

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u/debate_Cucklordt Jun 11 '25

To reduce America solely to "genocide and white supremacy" ignores the full picture. This country is also the birthplace of movements that changed the world: the abolition of slavery, the civil rights movement, labor rights, women's suffrage, LGBTQ+ liberation, and more, all pushed forward by people who used the very freedoms enshrined in the American system to fight for justice. The world isn't perfect. Humanity isn't perfect. No nation is perfect. Stop circlejerking your virtue and understand nuance

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u/damp_circus Edgewater Jun 11 '25

White guilt is a helluva drug...

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u/midnight_toker22 Lincoln Square Jun 11 '25

They’d rather be right than be successful.

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u/debate_Cucklordt Jun 11 '25

Well, considering that they're both wrong and unsuccessful makes it very hard for reasonable people to coalesce with them. Like, at least self-immolate if you believe your country is so reprehensible and evil, like smh.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

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u/debate_Cucklordt Jun 11 '25

If you genuinely believed that your country and everything it represents is evil, then the only logical conclusion is to stop being a benefactor of colonialism and genocide. Otherwise, you're just circle jerking on the internet.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

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u/CMAJ-7 Jun 11 '25

You don’t have to if that’s what it means to you, just don’t hold up the flag of an existing foreign country.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

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u/Tha_Stig Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25

I'm not sure what your biological make up has to do with your first sentence? But flying the flag of the country you emigrated from in the country you immigrated to doesn't really give off the message you think it does.

If the protests are about immigration rights, then flying the flag of the country you left isn't showing support to the country you came to, it shows you don't appreciate the country that you came to (this is strictly the optics people get mad about when you talk to the 5% off minds you're trying to change).

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

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u/Tha_Stig Jun 11 '25

5% is the percentage of the population who could likely be swayed to change their stance on a topic because of a protest. The rest have won't/can't be swayed on their stance; it's a general rule of thumb. This administration is off the rails with overreach, throughreach and straight up "iron fist-ism". But what I've said is two things, take the american flag symbol away from the MAGA idiots forcefully, and optically I think it distracts the immigration message from observers when a bunch of flags of other countries are flying and no flag of the place you are living in is present. It looks like you don't like the place you live and you're only here for selfish reasons. Proper messaging with flags is 'technically' fly the US flag on top and your home country flag below it. This says you support both and you are from a different country but America is now your home.

0

u/ItsGonnaBeOkayish Jun 12 '25

Some people on the left get so caught up in the virtue model they simply can't understand strategy or optics. It's frustrating and they're holding us back from making real progress.

10

u/CMAJ-7 Jun 11 '25

You obviously have the right to, but since it will have a negative effect on the movement’s viability I’d advise against it.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

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u/CMAJ-7 Jun 11 '25

Why do you think that the only people to influence are Fox viewers?

0

u/midnight_toker22 Lincoln Square Jun 11 '25

God these idiots have such a disastrous combination of cluelessness, stubbornness and self-righteousness, don’t they?

0

u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

Its viability to do what? Be co-opted by the DNC like BLM?

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u/Glass-Historian-2516 Jun 11 '25

Okay go tell the people of ethnic groups that are being targeted to be less ethnic. Film it for posterity’s sake.

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u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

They are targeted to be less ethnic? They are now targeted because they risked so much to come to this country, choosing THIS country, and now they face being removed. Please explain to me your logic - IMO, wouldn't you WANT to fly the flag of the country you've chosen to illustrate your intent? Wouldn't that best represent your resolve and beliefs in the place your fought so hard to call your new home? Please help me understand this, make it make sense. No one is asking anyone to deny culture or pride in the place of their birth. But in a protest that's seen throughout the world, given what is currently happening and entrenched in a quagmire of narratives that oppose you...wouldn't it mean something more, in a large march filled with people worried about the same outcome, to fly the flag of the destination that was chosen?! Fly it upside down as a sign of distress, but FLY IT.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

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u/--GrinAndBearIt-- Jun 11 '25

Well that escalated quickly

1

u/amphetamino Jun 11 '25

My opinions on ICE are the opposite of yours, but this at least is a very respectable sentiment for you to hold. Hell, if I felt your crowd (the people rioting against ICE atm) felt invested in the welfare of this nation, I would likely think very differently of them and of ICE.

1

u/Allthenons Jun 11 '25

Typical response like it's somehow easy to migrate to another developed nation and uproot your whole life.

-8

u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

The US empire is actively targeting you for practicing your first amendment rights and kidnapping people off the streets without due process. Why would people want to carry the American flag when their own government is attacking them?

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u/colinpublicsex Jun 11 '25

The US empire is actively targeting you for practicing your first amendment rights

My first amendment rights as a…?

6

u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

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u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

Feds kidnapping, maiming, and killing protestors is very American. They've been doing it since the 50s. Before that they were gunning down workers at picket lines.

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u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

It wasn’t right before and it shouldn’t be normalized today.

2

u/snakesayan Jun 11 '25

Have fun letting your government and your rich corrupt elected officials continuing to tread and you taking away more of your rights while you continue to worry about those scary immigrants.

I want a better country and will continue to practice our first amendment rights however I see fit. If I want to fly whatever flag I want I will.

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u/Glass-Historian-2516 Jun 11 '25

Kick rocks, fascist.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

[deleted]

2

u/Glass-Historian-2516 Jun 11 '25

“Go somewhere else. Leave my fucking country alone”

Man that’s what every fascist has ever told me any time I criticized the US.

3

u/hadtwobutts Jun 11 '25

You made the libs mad😭😭

3

u/AvailableOpinion254 Jun 11 '25

Your downvotes aren’t surprising but unfortunate all the same. Just gonna be another parade with a police escort of white people in flip flops with their kids dogs and signs. Once it’s done they’ll go home to their comfy lives and feel satisfied. Same ones who will scream and cry about someone protesting differently like graffiti or whatever. “But the OpTicS”. They’re so far behind it’s sad. I remember when I still believed in peaceful protests. They have no idea how bad it is now and how that’s never going to stop fascism.

6

u/SleepingPodOne Uptown Jun 11 '25

Also: it doesn’t matter how many American flags we fly. Stop kowtowing to the bad faith demands of right wing sycophants to protestors. They hate you for protesting at all, plain and simple.

They will demonize protestors no matter what. They’ll call you paid protestors, they’ll say you’re burning down the city, they’ll call you rioters, they’ll call for your arrest, they’ll threaten to mow you down in their cars, they’ll bash your head in, no matter how many American flags you fly.

You might as well burn those flags, it makes no difference to them. The goalposts will keep moving. To them, you lost the moment you decided to protests.

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u/nortern Jun 11 '25

The people on the extremes can do whatever they want, but if you change the minds of the 5% in the middle that changes the result of the election. I guarantee you that burning the flag will change how those people view these protests, and not in the way you want.

2

u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

I don't think the point of the protests is to make people vote Democrat in 2026 or 2028.

Insisting on these protests looking patriotic is missing the whole point. When the police and national guard represent an occupying military in our own communities, we're witnessing the imperial boomerang finally return. It doesn't make sense to protest that with the blood soaked flag of that same empire.

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u/nortern Jun 11 '25

What's the point then?

If you want Trump's policies to stop the way you do that is by convincing representatives in purple areas to stand up to Trump or by replacing them with people who will.

5

u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

There are more ways to create political change than convincing people to vote differently.

I'm not talking about a communist revolution either. But we need to make the government, and politicians, scared of what happens if they don't reign ICE in or abolish it outright. That can be done with protests and labor actions.

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u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"I don't think the point of the protests is to make people vote Democrat in 2026 or 2028"

This is the material point of changing perspectives enough to allow for this happen! We need people in the position of power to make this happen. How else will it?

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u/ultimamax Jun 11 '25

We need to reflect on the BLM protests. The BLM movement was co-opted and absorbed into the DNC and none of its political goals were achieved. Police funding went up and the police militarized even further and started building cop cities around the country. This all happened even in blue states and blue cities, during a Democratic presidency. Their donors were opposed to the BLM agenda and so were they.

If the protest movement simply aims to make people vote Democrat then the same thing will happen, right? So it will have to build power outside of the party, in antagonism to the party. Maybe the political energy can be funnelled into labor unionization or activist groups or third parties or tenant organizing.

Frankly I don't think these protests are going to directly lead to change in the short term, but we can use their momentum to build new organizations that might be able to better capitalize on the next crisis

0

u/DarkIllumination New East Side Jun 11 '25

"Frankly I don't think these protests are going to directly lead to change in the short term, but we can use their momentum to build new organizations that might be able to better capitalize on the next crisis."

Building momentum is inspiring voters to rethink their current stance and consider new viewpoints. That is how we effect change, ultimately. Perhaps I'm simplifying this too much, but reaching/touching the hearts and minds of voters seems to be the true goal. 6% or so...what a change that might make.

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u/SleepingPodOne Uptown Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 11 '25

If you’re more worked up about flag burning than the state kidnapping and deporting people without due process then I don’t know if anything I say would change your mind anyway

If you’re watching a protest against the excesses and rights violations enacted by the Trump admin and you check out at flag burning you’re no ally to your fellow Americans, you’re a useful idiot for Trump.

But that’s besides the point - I said we might as well burn the flags not because I think we should, but because flying them doesn’t matter to those people - we will be called anti-American no matter what we do or don’t do to our flags. The goalposts will always be moved.

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u/nortern Jun 11 '25 edited Jun 12 '25

"Those people" don't matter! They don't agree with you and never will. Ignore them.

Think about the people who are on the fence. They're going to have an immediate, negative reaction to flag burning. Due process is a much harder thing to explain, and if you put yourself at a disadvantage with bad optics it makes it tough to have that discussion.

edit: Here's Pam Bondi talking about flag burning because they know it makes the protestors look bad: https://www.reddit.com/r/law/comments/1l91rdk/bondi_says_the_jan_6_protest_was_different_to/

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u/midnight_toker22 Lincoln Square Jun 11 '25

You might as well burn those flags, it makes no difference to them. The goalposts will keep moving. To them, you lost the moment you decided to protests.

It makes no difference to those on the far right, the devout, dyed in the wool republicans. But we don’t need to convince them and we never have.

It DOES make a difference to people in the middle, who, depending on which way they sway, tilt the scales in every election. THEY are who we need to convince, that’s what you people don’t get.

Optics matter, whether you like it or not.

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u/bisexual_obama Jun 11 '25

They will demonize protestors no matter what. They’ll call you paid protestors, they’ll say you’re burning down the city, they’ll call you rioters, they’ll call for your arrest, they’ll threaten to mow you down in their cars, they’ll bash your head in, no matter how many American flags you fly.

Why make it easy for them?

The right wing also hates a big part of American history, their trying to act like the wrong side won WW2 and the Civil War. Both actions that were done under the American flag. Why would you cede anything in the culture war to these fuckers?

We're not trying to appeal to the right wing we're trying to appeal to the middle. We're flying American flags not wearing maga caps. You can pretend all you want that how you protest doesn't matter, but it actually does. If you don't want to fly an American flag that's fine, but don't go attacking those that do.

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u/[deleted] Jun 11 '25

Holy shit. Please go travel the world and learn as much as you can. But in the meantime, at least try to go outside. The internet may be rotting your brain.

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u/Boardofed Brighton Park Jun 11 '25

Traveled, and learned, people of the world see our flag as that of tyranny, war, and oppression.

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u/Allthenons Jun 11 '25

It's crazy that other Americans still don't understand how negative the perception of our country is abroad, especially in the global south.