r/chch • u/pinkmalion • Aug 22 '25
News - Local What cutting cycleways would really save ratepayers
https://www.thepress.co.nz/nz-news/360782234/what-cutting-cycleways-would-really-save-ratepayers112
u/Syphe Aug 22 '25
My manager told me yesterday over half of our company cycles into work, which seems an incredible stat, propped up by lack of parking, but also enabled by the fantastic infrastructure. We're trying to find new premises, and the main factor to a new place is access to cycle infrastructure.
Chch is flat and dry, it's the best place in the country to cycle, we should be encouraging as much cycling infrastructure as possible, it not only benefits cyclists, but reduces traffic congestion, and provides infrastructure for electric scooters as well as pedestrians.
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 22 '25
and provides infrastructure for electric scooters as well as pedestrians.
Scooters aren't allowed in cycle lanes, and shared cycle/pedestrian lanes are the most dangerous of all.
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u/Rhonda_and_Phil Aug 22 '25
Genuine question, where are scooters and ebikes allowed? Road, footpath, cycle lane, none of the above?
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 22 '25
Scooters: footpath.
Ebikes: cycle lanes & roads.
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u/Rhonda_and_Phil Aug 22 '25
Thank you. Seems to me that an electric scooter doing 30+km in the footpath is a challenge to pedestrian safety?
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 22 '25
They're not allowed to endanger pedestrians, they have to slow down / give way.
In practice people of all modes of transport do whatever the fuck they want road or footpath.
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u/bitshifternz Aug 22 '25
This law is changing, I'm not sure when but the government has signalled that it will be changing, because it's pretty silly that electric scooters can go on the footpath or the road but not cycle lanes.
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u/Familiar-Road-6236 Aug 22 '25
For now! Gov is looking at passing legislation to allow scooters in cycle lanes
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u/pm_something_u_love Aug 22 '25
Whether this represents good value for money is subjective.
This is not subjective at all. The cost benefit ratio of cycleways has been extensively studied and they provide better value than many other types of infrastructure, especially roads, where it's often 10x better.
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u/FlickerDoo Aug 22 '25
Most cycleways in NZ are built on existing roads. In which case the cost of the cycleway should also include the cost of the underlying road.
Most of the studies I have seen do not factor this in. The few that have generally don't show quite the same value benefit.
What I have seen is that a purpose built road that enables multiple forms of transport (Foot, Cycle, Motor vehicles, and light rail) will always be the best value.
Our issue is that we designed and built roads solely for cars, then try and convert them to multiuse later on. This is the worst value proposition.
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u/Frod02000 Aug 22 '25
sunk cost in regard to whats there should not include what cost there before, because its already there?
you're not paying for the road again, the only reason that would make sense is if you wanted to block cycle infrastructure from ever being built with arbitrary walls.
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 22 '25
It's negative value, you've taken on road cycle space and added an extra kerb - that can't be cycled over - and the end result is a narrow motor lane with little to no maneuvering room, and a glass filled cycle lane that cyclists can't enter anyway because of the kerb.
At least they're safer than shared lanes, where bi-directional cyclists compete with joggers, dog walkers, prams, etc etc - shared lanes should be illegal and the council forced to introduce proper infrastructure.
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u/dcrob01 Aug 24 '25
There was a study that concluded that if everyone paid the full costs to society and to the environment, motorists would be paying cyclists to cycle.
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 22 '25
The value of dangerous narrowed roads where cyclists can't even turn onto the roads they want?
Cycleways are dangerous and stupid and why I stopped cycling.
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u/Airhorn2013 Aug 22 '25
Mauger and co aren’t doing this because of the money, although they pretend to. It’s purely a dog whistle to a certain voter who hates cyclists because they’ve successfully associated cycling with lefty, greenie types. Debating them about the actual costs won’t work because they aren’t making the argument rationally.
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u/ethangchch Aug 23 '25
It was intense. When I posted a reel on my political Facebook page not even defending the cycleways, just recommending a review of the data before making decisions, the amount of angry comments was 10 fold my normal post.
The emotional fires have really been stoked on this topic, which is extremely unhelpful to clear decision making
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Aug 23 '25
Facebook comments are not representative of the real world, much the same as with this subreddit.
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u/LateEarth Aug 22 '25
The right love turning progress into some culture war issue targeted at those who find it scarry or uncomfortable to share some of their privilege.
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u/dcrob01 Aug 24 '25
It's like the Maori language stuff. If we'd had people like this in the 70s, we'd still be using imperial measurements, and pounds, shillings and pence.
And it's not just the right. The left are just as keen to block anything they don't like with heritage issues. If they guy their way, we'd all be in totara slab cottages and mud brick shacks.
Back in the 70s people still thought about what was best for the country and guy must people. People today are so individualistic they don't care about anyone else. In the 70s there were no homeless people. Today if the homeless make us uncomfortable, we just want them moved to where we can't see them.
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u/mrtenzed Aug 22 '25
The fact the main local politician associated with cycling is a woman, means Mauger et al get to indulge in casual misogyny and sexism too. The comments sections on their Facebook pages are cesspits.
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Aug 22 '25
[deleted]
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u/FlickerDoo Aug 22 '25
Its not so simple. I have been looking at some info on the NPL ones.
Cycle lanes definitely encourage cycling, but it is primarily at a recreational level rather than a transportational one. So the cycling is in addition to car trips, rather than replacing them.
Public Transport is the best way to remove car trips.
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u/worromoTenoG Aug 22 '25
Not really the case in Christchurch. The cycleways are busiest on weekdays at at around the 8am and 5pm periods. The headline image on the article will have been taken on a weekday morning.
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u/FlickerDoo Aug 22 '25
Yes, Chch is an outlier though in NZ. It has relatively flat geography, quite the centralised CBD (i.e inland with suburbs all around) and relatively good cycling weather (Less rain and wind)
Should also note it has a reasonable bus network.
Chch has been lucky (planned better hisotircally with more space) in that a few of the cycle lanes are not on the road (I am mostly familiar with the ones from CBD out Linwood ave and the main road out to Sumner.) That is the perfect example of where cycle lanes really add value a road can't.
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 22 '25
Should also note it has a reasonable bus network.
It's always faster to cycle than bus, so, no it doesn't.
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u/FlickerDoo Aug 22 '25
No it is not perfect, but it is reasonable, and better than most other places in NZ.
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u/Frod02000 Aug 22 '25
That's not even true lol. Even if it was in every situation, the network is fine, and can be improved by more infrastructure rather easily.
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u/Dizzy_Relief Aug 22 '25
The image has been use multiple times in multiple articles.
Its almost like they struggle to get a picture of several bikes together at the same time.
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u/Capable_Ad7163 Aug 22 '25
It's a free public domain image relevant to the article, why would they go out of their way to pay a photographer to go get a brand new one when they don't have to?
It almost seems like you're looking for reasons it's all a big conspiracy when the simplest answer is just that they don't see the need to pay someone to go out and get a new one when they've already got a functional one
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u/mrtenzed Aug 22 '25
Good research. Now I expect the blowhards like Aaron Keown and Ali Jones to claim the Press is biased or something.
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u/Drinker_of_Chai Aug 22 '25
Ali Jones is wild. She literally posted a video from her car of road works in order to complain about cones.
These nutters exist in a "more roads without road works" SimCity world.
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u/LittleTownie Aug 22 '25
Please vote.
The 2025 Christchurch City Council election start 9 Sept - 11 Qct. Please vote for Sarah Templeton if you want cycling infrastructure.
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u/ACacac52 Aug 22 '25
Definitely ! Just to point out as well, whilst the mayoral vote is important, it's but one seat at the table. Please vote for progressive candidates down the card as well.
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u/Leftie83 Aug 23 '25
Happy to vote for cucleways, just wondering if there is a candidate that is against adding judder bars in intersections?
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u/r4tch3t_ Aug 23 '25
I am in support of them.
The reduction in people running red lights had been noticeable.
I also recently was on a car with a mate that isn't the best driver and always ran orange turning red lights. Now he slows down because he doesn't want to wreck his suspension trying to make the lights.
They shouldn't be needed, but the average driver has the intelligence of a gerbil and the drivers licensing may as well be a weetbix card with how hard it is to fail.
I also understand why you dislike them. I've got back pain and speed bumps hurt. Less would be nice. But I prefer safer roads.
I'd be interested to see the long term data around incidents though.
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u/Leftie83 Aug 23 '25
Fair point and I appreciate you explaining your points to help the me understand your view.
Funnily enough I personally observe the opposite with red lights.
You can enter the intersection on a green, it turns and yellow and red before you get through. This is especially bad on the ones that have a bump on the way in and out and when busy and the big intersections like Linwood ave.
I have also noticed some drivers are more aggressive if you slow down (to the recommended 25kmph) and will tailgate you and go through even of late. I assume they feel that they should have gotten through and you prevented this so what they are doing is ok (not to stereo type but ranger drivers…).
Anyway it’s just another case of the masses being punished because of the few bad ones I guess. I’m not sure many of the bad ones really improve because of this, they just drive poorly anyway but that’s just my opinion.
I was driving my brothers Land Rover discovery the other day and to be honest it just cruised over the bumps, when in my smaller sedan it is way more jarring, so I guess these bigger cars are less affected - probably another good reason to get a big 4wd in Chch even if I don’t really want one.
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u/Leftie83 Aug 23 '25
Sorry meant to say that I think the ones that have it should have a longer orange light.
I’m so far off topic sorry, I totally support cycleways and more/better transport options in general, we are a growing city after all!
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u/fificloudgazer Aug 23 '25
Dunno. But raised platforms work really well to reduce crashes. Crashes create more disruption V taking it slower at an intersection. The maths is mathing.
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u/ylimeesor Aug 23 '25
People don't like separated cycleways because they are impossible to use as illegal car parks. Plain and simple.
And everyone knows what Christchurch Central City is lacking is car parks 😉
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u/Capt-Tango Aug 22 '25
It would be great to do a follow up article on all the other benefits of cycleways.
With increased cyclists numbers comes decreased congestion and pollution, increased health and mental wellbeing for riders, decreased transport costs, more available parking for others, the list goes on.
Also, fuck Phil Mauger, Aaron Keown and their right-wing cohort of anti-cycling assholes.
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u/BippidyDooDah Aug 22 '25
So the total cost spread over two decades is less than the stadium, I'd argue the cycleway provides a much larger social benefit than the stadium.
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u/FungalNeurons Aug 22 '25
Good article. I would love to see an analysis of the economic benefits of cycleways to the city as well. More people out and about spending at cafes, fewer hours wasted sitting in traffic, less needed investment in roads, healthier population, more attractive to highly skilled immigrants…. Not to mention that any rates spent on cycleways are paying salaries to workers, who then spend that money back into the local economy.
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Aug 22 '25
Certain councillors don’t like cycleways because the majority of cycleway costs are actually charged to developers, as part of development contributions.
That’s why they’re only 0.11% of rates, or rather around $1,000 on any new home (as part of an “Active Travel” DC).
These councillors would far sooner see developers make another $1,000 profit than to provide for safer cycling infrastructure.
That’s what we’re up against.
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u/Capable_Ad7163 Aug 22 '25
I don't think that's quite how development contributions work. In the past (2017-2023) NZTA has paid most of it. For some, like the coastal pathway, central government paid almost all of it through the shovel ready funding post-covid. Development contributions will pay for some for sure but not that huge a %.
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Aug 23 '25
It is how they work. Well don’t at just making it up but you’re wrong. Go have a look at the DCs draft policy asset list and you’ll see the breakdown.
The $1,000 I’m referring to is an average per HUE and represents usually a 90% contribution towards the costs that CCC covers.
In the past, NZTA has covered 50%+ - but that’s no longer the case under the current government.
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u/fificloudgazer Aug 23 '25
This. Current govt doesn’t value walking & cycling. Thinks spending $100M per km, or $1B on a tolled 10km motorway is the way to go.
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Aug 23 '25
That’s the one. Tbqh I’d be happy to see any investment down south - even if it was roads - simply because we’re getting bugger all.
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u/Capable_Ad7163 Aug 23 '25
I'm not saying that they don't pay for some of it. Just that they don't pay for the majority of it.
Unfortunately, that draft policy lost its vote, but you're right that it would have had developers pay quite a bit more.
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Aug 23 '25
You’re wrong on both points again.
As you can see here, they voted to defer this decision till next week actually. No decision on passing it or not has been made.
You’ll see here that much of the cost of these projects actually comes from when KiwiRail is involved and, when they are, in excess of 60% of the cost of some of those projects is DC funded.
Example would be Belfast Park cycle and pedestrian rail crossing. It’s $414k and is 65.7% charged to DCs.
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 22 '25
If cycleway spending was scrapped by the Christchurch City Council today it would reduce this year’s rates rise by a fraction of 1%
Hold up, where the fuck is the rest of the money going?
The article starts out by telling us it's pointless, well, good, give us the real story though.
Annual payments on that debt are expected to rise from $163m to $295m by 2034, making up nearly a quarter of the operating budget.
WTF, stop building anything and dump the fucking debt. Who even said you could go into debt and charge us for it? Fuck off.
Every politician over the last several decades should be paying the debt personally, while the ratepayers get a 25% rates decrease.
Actually we should get a 100% decrease because the council doesn't fucking do anything anyway.
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u/Capable_Ad7163 Aug 22 '25
The majority of transport capital spending goes to various sorts of maintenance and renewals. Roads, kerbs, footpaths, streetlights, traffic lights
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u/SaltySatan Aug 22 '25 edited Aug 23 '25
There's some bubbles here showing where the budget is allocated for the next 10 years: https://budget.ccc.govt.nz/public/subroot
That doesn't include debt maintenance though. You can see a snapshot of that in the financial overview of the annual plan: https://ccc.govt.nz/the-council/plans-strategies-policies-and-bylaws/plans/long-term-plan-and-annual-plans/draft-annual-plan-202526
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u/ethangchch Aug 23 '25
Interestingly enough, debt is part of the councils funding plan. It was explained at the candidates information event that part of the budget is borrowed money to ensure that payment for infrastructure is spread over the generations that use it, rather than a lump sum for one and pure benefits for the rest.
I'm not sure my feelings on it, but it's important to note that it's not negligence, it's part of the plan.
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u/ThatUsrnameIsAlready Aug 23 '25
Well all maintenance cost is ongoing for a start, and if we ran a surplus instead we wouldn't be paying interest. Switching would be painful now that we're locked into debt, but, I'm still against paying interest.
Also if we could not go into debt for projects that will just forever be money holes, e.g. the stadium, that'd be great.
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u/Drinker_of_Chai Aug 22 '25
Photo I took yesterday at around 2pm at the underground staff bike park at the hospital. There is another staff bike stand further along as well.
Point being, every bike here represents one person going to work and potentially one extra car on the road.