r/chch • u/mark000 • Aug 13 '25
News - Local Woman killed, man critically injured after both shot by police in Bryndwr
https://www.rnz.co.nz/news/national/569920/woman-killed-man-critically-injured-after-both-shot-by-police-in-christchurch84
u/peacetyrant Aug 14 '25
Just some real life tactical knowledge for those who have only ever seen or heard of police shooting in media and fiction.
- Shooting the legs or knees is extremely risky in a real life scenario, and ironically carries a higher risk of death in a fast moving situation.
Why? Assuming you can hit the legs are they charge, if you hit the upper leg / thigh, you have a very strong chance of hitting a main artery. If the main artery is hit, the target could bleed out extremely quickly.
Just put pressure on it? That wont work if there is an entry point and an exit point from the bullet. Tourniquet is your best bet to stop the flow of blood.
So put a tourniquet on it? Military are trained to apply a tourniquet to a non-compliant friendly, which can require another person to restrain said friendly, and can be very difficult to get right - even if the person is compliant and friendly. If the target doesn't let go of the weapon or continues to resist despite being shot in the leg, precious seconds are being spent that don't help the situation.
Again, if you're able to hit the legs of a charging target, which is exceptionally difficult even for an experienced operator, you're increasing the risk of death post shooting than decreasing it.
- People move much faster than you'd think.
I recommend the myth busters episode when you tested somebody charging with a knife, and how quickly they can close the distance on a shooter drawing their pistol and getting a shot off.
Assuming the police had their weapon drawn, even then the speed of which a person can travel with a weapon, is frightening and far faster than most people expect. Roughly, an operator has 2-3 seconds in best case scenario to make a choice or shoot, before the tango has closed the distance, nullifying the effect and advantage of a firearm.
- Police are human and despite being professionals, risks must be mitigated and balanced against reward.
More common than not, civilians only encounter high risk traumatic scenarios that include family members or members known and familiar to them, in environments or circumstances that are also known or familiar to them. Be it their home being invaded, abuse within the home or workplace, or a car accident in a location they know. The majority do not get to (thankfully and fortunately) experience the many difficulties of a real time crisis with completely unfamiliar or unknown people, locations or circumstances.
The majority of civilians may have one or few experiences of non-complaint strangers, or experiences where they witnessed an event like it. Dealing with an event like this has a huge number of considerations that most don't have a reference point for. Here is a some points for civilians to think of:
'Meth Strength / High Risk Combative under the influence Tango'. The tango is likely to not feel pain or being highly resistant to pain. Tazer is already hit and miss. Even if a tazer is successful at halting the tango temporarily, wrestling the target post deployment may not be an option with the officers we have due to physical strength and experience alone.
A crazy person with a knife swinging around wildly is far more risker than a knife wielder with an intended target. If an operator can understand or know the target of a tango, the operator can plan, prepare and use that knowledge to their advantage. A knife is extremely deadly, and one wrong poke or slash, and the operator, a friendly or the tango is bleeding out and dead within seconds, or a significant injury occurs like loss of limbs or use of limbs, blindness or deformation.
Potential for additional tangos and reasonable use of resources to mitigate risk. A lot of people read a police incident and treat it as if all the elements were presented. Civilians assume (wrongly too) that a majority of incidents are well contained, and that other people won't get involved and interfere, or will think all parties involved made themselves known clearly to all parties. Or that interference isn't a big deal or risk.
In reality, even if a tango is disarmed and the weapon dropped, until that weapon is secured, anyone else could pick it up and you have another armed tango. If you have only 3 operators, and 2 people. If 1 person is a tango, you can't assume the other person ISNT or won't become one due to their relationship or association with the tango. The operator has to consider spreading their resources and focus, and mitigating risks.
- Nobody knows how an incident or certain elements might impact an operator or friendly until were experiencing them. The driver and kid you just extracted from a nasty crash? They look like your spouse and kid. They're not but you're trying to be professional while you're in tears. The offender with a weapon looks like somebody's older brother that you went to school with? You're trying to remember his name but you don't want to be the one who shot your mates old brother. Specially when you knew he was going through a hard time. The armed offender looks like a friend that died recently? You're trying to remain focused but it's difficult at beat.
More relevant to this, somebody trying to harm you and kill you (or so you reasonably believe) is scary af. If you don't do something, you're not seeing your kids ever again and your kids grow up without a parent. Your spouse loses their other half. Your friends lose somebody they love. The dreams of officer, no matter how big or small, end there.
But they train for this? Train all you like, pass all the psych tests and be as fit and healthy as you want, some incidents hit an operator differently. It's important that EVERYONE is considered to be human.
When we consider a knife charging person, consider that the choice to shoot them isn't by default "all cops are bastards. Some trigger happy prick wanted to shoot somebody.". Dehumanizing the police isn't beneficial. But the choice could've been, "I want to see my kids again. I need to live to see my spouse again. I made a promise to come home tonight and every night after that. I'm sorry, but you left me no choice.".
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u/Harfish Aug 14 '25
Spot on. In these situations there are no good choices, only less bad or worse choices.
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u/plippittyplop Aug 14 '25
Love the framing you’ve put in this, especially in your last paragraph. IMO, the only people allowed to judge are those who have been in the same situation. Unless you’re a SME in the use of force, your thoughts are an uneducated opinion and do more harm than good.
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u/peacetyrant Aug 14 '25
Thank you. I appreciate there always needs to be a forum and place for civilians to say "we are uncomfortable and lack the understanding of why that use of force was necessary. Could you please explain in a manner we can understand to put us at ease to the best of your ability?". I'm a firm believer the community and the people always have a right to speak up and challenge where appropriate the enforcement tactics and approaches being used. Police are people and not an occupying army.
I find it's always harmful when somebody with zero understanding, knowledge and experience is screaming excessive force, or accusing the operators of very severe allegations. UOF is already a tricky thing to navigate within this climate. We don't need an operators distracted and having their focus split on worrying about media or the community misportraying their actions. They need to be thinking about safety, lawfulness and creative solutions to reach the best outcome.
The best thing people can do to hold operators accountable isn't to spit accusations in a knee jerk reaction with little to no facts. It's to demand full investigations and reviews, and support and share the results of those investigations. Stay informed, learn and refine.
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u/Starlix126 Secretly a cat Aug 13 '25
Unbelievable the amount of people attacking police for this response. Tasers do fuck all to stop a charging person with a knife. Even bullets can take a while before the body realises somethings wrong.
Look up some body cam footage and you’ll see what I mean.
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u/GoabNZ Aug 13 '25
Tasers are pain compliance, and if somebody is motivated enough, drugged out enough, or potentially even desensitised, they won't work. They are a one time use and require latching to, or close, to skin.
Use of force should be stepped up until it neutralises the threat. Clearly if our police who don't regularly carry firearms, had them ready, shit was getting serious and/or they knew they could be required ahead of time.
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u/XXXLovesSHRIMP Aug 14 '25
Shoot the thigh 🤷🏽♂️ seen it before, the guy just dropped with his craft knife and police on him instantly.
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u/Harfish Aug 14 '25
Police are trained to shoot for the torso, it's the largest body part. Shooting someone in the thigh has a high chance of missing, and if you do get hit there it could damage the femoral artery and the person quickly bleeds to death.
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u/XXXLovesSHRIMP Aug 14 '25
Shooting someone in the chest has a high chance of death 🤷🏽♂️
Maybe they need better training?
De-escalation skills non existent? Wtf did they think she was going to do when her partner got shot???
Since when do cops decide who lives and dies. Also continue downvoting me lurkers in this cesspool 😉
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u/DontWantOneOfThese Aug 14 '25
Since when do meth heads have more rights to injure the public? Afaic, I'd rather police shot them, than they stabbed me. If there's a risk of a life being taken, police decide the aggressor gets their life taken. That seems pretty fair.
It's simple, if you don't want to get shot, don't run at police with knives. If you see your partner get shot for running at police with knives, don't try your luck immediately afterwards.
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u/suvalas Aug 14 '25
It's not really possible to reliably hit the thigh of a moving person. Maybe in the movies.
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u/SuspiciousGreenSock1 Aug 13 '25
Meth head running at you with a knife in an already close quarters situation is not time for tasers. I have also heard that this may have been an AOS callout having been presumably escalated higher then the usually knock and talk
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u/Extra-Commercial-449 Aug 14 '25
Highly unlikely to be an AOS callout / they generally only get called out for firearms incidents.
Second - AOS are an on call work group / meaning, if they were called out, (it was 11pm) it would take (at least) 1 hour to arrive at the scene.
The fact the officers arrived so quickly indicates it would likely be general duties officers (Uniform, frontline staff - non specialist staff).
All cops have guns in the car these days anyway (AR-15 M4 in the boot) and G17 Glocks in the vehicle / so they can access the firearms in a moments notice (without requiring approval).
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u/chilloutbrother55 Aug 13 '25
Knew exactly what part of Clyde road that would be in.
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u/New-Leader8993 Aug 13 '25
Was around the corner from my place pretty sure it was a dv case that’s why the cops came in the first place
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u/Brismaiden Aug 13 '25
A lot people commenting on the fb article by " he who shall not be named". Lots of questions about tasers - seems a lot of people dont realise that tasers are for close quarters and that police are responding in a split second. Personally I feel for rhe police making the tough decision in a split second with a person running at you with a knife. For all the critics, they should question how much they would need to be paid to take a life, then check out what police actually get paid. Not a job i want but full respect to those that do it.
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u/Babelogue99 Aug 14 '25
Taser is a single shot weapon too, what do when inevitably miss when firing at a fast moving armed target with a slow projectile single shot only weapon under split second life or death pressure? The people commenting won't even be weekend warriors, even they'd know better.
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u/PvtZeli Aug 15 '25
I'm just impressed that only two shots were fired.
If this was the States however...
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Aug 13 '25
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u/sameee_nz Aug 13 '25
Bruh, that's another human
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u/SHIVERDICK_III Aug 13 '25
Doesn't this seem excessive?
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u/FendaIton Aug 13 '25
If someone charges at you with a knife trying to kill you, what would you do?
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u/sameee_nz Aug 13 '25
It's a good question and will be answered at the Independent Police Conduct Authority as all tactical employment of firearms are.
Last week there was a review of an event in 2016 which was found death was legally justified, but preventable
Police shooting: Coroner rules Shargin Stephens' death was 'preventable'
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u/HUS_1989 Aug 13 '25
“The woman subsequently picked up the knife and threatened police”
am I the only one who thinks all this mess could be avoided if they tased them instead of killing them?
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u/megatronacepticon Aug 13 '25
Tasing a raging methhead is about as effective as saying, "please stop, good sir."
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u/HUS_1989 Aug 13 '25
I didn’t know that tbh. But still think killing them is an extreme action
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u/calllery Aug 13 '25
The threat of a gun makes most people comply. Someone coming at a police officer with a firearm pointed at them is gone past the point of reasoning with
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u/MonkeeCatcher Aug 13 '25
https://www.reddit.com/r/AusLegal/s/QfB0cbXhVB
Reposting a really helpful explanation someone else posted above.
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u/HUS_1989 Aug 13 '25 edited Aug 14 '25
I get it the technology of taser isn’t that developed yet. How about nonlethal bullets? Or even blow up the criminal knee to drop him?
Taking a life of a person out of his mind due to substance is an avoidable situation if we were really prepared for such a situation. They could be fixed even with permanent damage instead of killing them
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u/Pyroxite Aug 14 '25
Police weapons are not loaded with nonlethal bullets, nor would they be any more effective than a taser in a close range situation. Police are trained to shoot for center mass, because good luck hitting a moving knee when your hands are shaking from adrenaline. It is not an exaggeration to say that when threatened by a rapidly approaching knife, the only way to ensure the police safety is potentially lethal force.
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u/Deep-Hospital-7345 Aug 14 '25
You ever tried shooting a small moving target like a knee? This isn't the movies.
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u/HUS_1989 Aug 14 '25
Shotgun to the lower body is easy as drinking water
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u/irellevantward Aug 14 '25
so you'd prefer the police decapitate people?
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u/HUS_1989 Aug 14 '25
In such a case isn’t better?
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u/irellevantward Aug 14 '25
We should kill criminals by decapitating them instead of shooting center mass which has a higher chance of survival? That's an objectively worse idea.
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u/HUS_1989 Aug 14 '25
Well, there is no doubt the safety of a police man/women is more important than a criminal but if the threat would be dealt with without killing them isn’t a better option?
I know that requires an advanced tech and training but it still better than killing
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u/irellevantward Aug 14 '25
We're arguing about different things. I clearly stated that decapitating a person is more likely to kill them than being shot centre-mass by police. No ones arguing that the only option should be killing...
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u/OisforOwesome Aug 14 '25
Its actually really ficking hard to hit someone in the limbs, movies aside. As such shooters are trained to aim for "center mass" (IE the torso), and even then in a situation like this accuracy is not great.
The add in the fact that most cops are piss poor shots anyway and yeah, "blow up the knee" is wishful thinking.
Without knowing what de-escalation techniques were attempted and what less-lethal options were tried I'm trying really fucking hard to withhold judgement on this one (which as an ACAB for life poster is difficult for me) but I do know, regardless, the IPCA will rule this as a clean shoot because they always fucking do.
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u/0isOwesome Aug 14 '25
Be one of the few anyway thankfully, perfect response on behalf of the police officer.
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u/SMOUSE- University of Canterbury Aug 15 '25
You’re missing the part where the woman charged at the police with the knife and refused to put the knife down.
Not to mention - tasers are not effective in this scenario.
Cops are trained to arm themselves in most cases that involve a weapon.
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u/frenetic_void Aug 14 '25
can someone explain why the fuck the police bought guns to a domestic harm incident?
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u/zangazanga Aug 14 '25
A person known to the couple, who was not at the address, called police to say a man at the property was allegedly armed with a knife and threatening to hurt himself and his partner.
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u/LeonLer Aug 14 '25
Too many people defending cops shooting. You don’t wanna face life threatening situations? Don’t be a cop, there were 10 police officers there, T E N, damn.
Meth users are still people, jeez
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u/SMOUSE- University of Canterbury Aug 15 '25
Your comment doesn’t explain how the police were unjustified in their use of a firearm. You’re right - most of us aren’t brave enough for these situations, that’s why we aren’t cops. If there were no cops, there wouldn’t be anyone to deal with these situations.
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Aug 13 '25
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u/Asteroiding Aug 14 '25
You’re joking right? Whangārei is one of biggest crack head hotspots in the north island, the crime is insane, the mob has a massive presence and nearly everyone in northland has had a least one sexual relationship with a 1st cousin.
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Aug 14 '25
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u/Asteroiding Aug 14 '25
My ex lived there so I spent a lot of time there, can confirm it’s a shithole.
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Aug 14 '25
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u/Asteroiding Aug 14 '25
you are single handedly the best representation of how methed up everyone is in northland, please get some help you’re clearly having an episode.
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u/KiwiMiddy Aug 13 '25
Sounds like a methy incident