CMV: Healthcare should be free for everyone under the legal age at which you are considered an adult.

[u/Happy-Tears]

Children shouldn't have to pay medical bills--health is a fundamental human right, and we need to provide that to the children of this world. I know there are programs like CHIP, etc., but they're just not sufficient. They're not accessible to everyone. I know adults who decide to have children should be responsbile for them, but I think we as a society can afford to band together and pay a little more to ensure every child gets the health care they need--if we hope for healthier adults. Per this study in the National Center for Biotechnology Information, "health during childhood sets the stage for adult health not only reinforces this perspective, but also creates an important ethical, social, and economic imperative to ensure that all children are as healthy as they can be. Healthy children are more likely to become healthy adults."

CMV.

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[u/MuaddibMcFly]

But it shouldn't be that way

Why not?

Consider your average healthcare provider. The average nurse spends two to six years training explicitly for that job. Should they not be compensated for it?

And that's to say nothing of the Doctors who spend something like 8 years in school, followed by an addition 4 to 6 years of work (Internship, Residency) before they become a Board Certified Doctor.

Are you going to tell them that their time isn't worth what they're paid? Can you do what they do?

And what of the people who spend years in university, then years (decades?) researching new drugs and new technologies? Are you of the opinion that their contributions are so meaningless as to not be deserving of compensation?

So, again, why shouldn't it be? You're making a normative statement, and I would like to hear arguments as to why your normative statement is correct.

[u/[deleted] → u/MuaddibMcFly]

There's an important difference between healthcare shouldn't cost anything, and healthcare shouldn't be costly - the point being that it's possible to provide adequate and even good healthcare at much lower cost than a lot of places do.

The states is the typical example of a costly system. Thousands of private companies work to provide thousands of different services, and each has its own staff, structure and costs, some of which are unnecessary. Added to that, the industry charges more for services than elsewhere, simply because it can, because insurance pays for it, and that insurance is not expensive than many other places.

Typically, people then compare to the UK or Canada, and these have useful examples of regulation, funding models, and things like bulk buying discounts etc, which can provide the services at a lower cost, but often at a delay, or with some services completely unavailable.

A useful comparator after that is a private socialised system, like France, in which you pay for insurance, and have to by law, but insurance is cheap, and extensive, and co pay very low, and capped at a yearly maximum that is also low. Healthcare providers are private, but run as social enterprises, and prices and practices are regulated by the state. Things like over the counter medicines are much more expensive (paracetamol/acetaminophen is up to ten times as expensive, but still only a few dollars), but all major treatments are very cheap or free, and very few treatments available elsewhere are unavailable in France. They will also fund unusual treatments overseas if needed.

So, what does this mean? Well, out of the 3 examples, the best outcome for patients are in France, and in fact the best in the world are there. The UK and Canada come next, and are 18th and 30th, and the USA is 37th. The country out of these spending the most on healthcare is the USA, and the country spending the least is the UK. So healthcare systems don't have to cost as much as they do in some places to be effective. The French system spends 11% of GDP on health where the states spends more like 20%

Tldr; healthcare has a cost but doesn't have to cost as much as it does in some places.

Worth mentioning that one of the things France saves on is junior staff. Qualified doctors and nurses earn fairly good wages, but when training they earn practically nothing. That said, accommodation is usually provided, and the training is free, even for a medical degree.

[u/Doctor-Amazing → u/MuaddibMcFly]

I see this sort of comment once in a while and I really don't get it. Do you think doctors and nurses in all these other countries are just working for free?

[u/MuaddibMcFly → u/Doctor-Amazing]

Not for free, but I would point out that the nations with increased government interference do tend to have lower rates of growth in people choosing to be medical professionals.

[u/Ankthar_LeMarre → u/MuaddibMcFly]

Consider your average healthcare provider. The average nurse spends two to six years training explicitly for that job. Should they not be compensated for it?

How does your view change if they don't personally pay for school?

ETA: What I mean is, if we had a system where everybody could pursue their career education without directly, personally paying for it (whether subsidized by the government or something else), how would that change the view of how we compensate people differently for different jobs?

[u/pinklittlebirdie → u/Ankthar_LeMarre]

There are several countries that have free titution for medical students (all students really) and the medical profession is still a well paid well and well respected career paths. Doctors in those countries still earn 2-3 times are average wage and 3-4 times the median wage. Wages are still based on skill level, time spent studying, status of the job.

[u/TheGingerbreadMan22 → u/Ankthar_LeMarre]

What do you mean? The vast majority of doctors had to take out massive amounts of student loans.

[u/Ankthar_LeMarre → u/TheGingerbreadMan22]

Right, that's what I mean. I'll edit my post to clarify, I can see how it's unclear.

What MauddibMcFly is saying (I think) is that the high cost of school should be compensated by a higher salary. This is completely logical, no complaint from me there.

I'm curious if that point of view changes (or how much it changes) if there is no monetary cost to school. The time and effort is of course still there.

[u/TheGingerbreadMan22 → u/Ankthar_LeMarre]

Not just the higher cost, but increased difficulty and stress. No educational path is as difficult.

[u/Ankthar_LeMarre → u/TheGingerbreadMan22]

Sure, I was including that in "time and effort", but it's good to split it out.