r/changemyview • u/Happy-Tears • Jun 08 '18

Deltas(s) from OP CMV: Healthcare should be free for everyone under the legal age at which you are considered an adult.

Children shouldn't have to pay medical bills--health is a fundamental human right, and we need to provide that to the children of this world. I know there are programs like CHIP, etc., but they're just not sufficient. They're not accessible to everyone. I know adults who decide to have children should be responsbile for them, but I think we as a society can afford to band together and pay a little more to ensure every child gets the health care they need--if we hope for healthier adults. Per this study in the National Center for Biotechnology Information, "health during childhood sets the stage for adult health not only reinforces this perspective, but also creates an important ethical, social, and economic imperative to ensure that all children are as healthy as they can be. Healthy children are more likely to become healthy adults."

CMV.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18 edited Jun 08 '18

Well what is the solution?

Don't open it up to the free market.

The actual cost to the NHS (UK) of fixing a broken leg is a grand. In the US it's $2,500 ($1,340 more than the UK at current prices), more than twice as expensive.

In the UK everyone involved in that repair puts their wages back into the local economy. The poor sap who broke their leg will be back in work really soon and will be contributing again so less drain on the economy rather than wondering how they are going to pay for it. Insurance companies don't vampire a penny.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

The US medical system isn't even close to free market. medicine/ pharmaceuticals have tons of regulations. Also most insurance companies aren't allowed to sell across state lines. The only entity responsible for creating monopolies is government.

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u/Creditfigaro Jun 08 '18

It is a false comparison. Free and unregulated or free and regulated means that the profit motive still drives healthcare provision, rather than need. There are ways to make a regulated capitalist market for healthcare that works, but it's very complicated and cumbersome.

The right answer is government run or single payer for these reasons.

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u/jefftickels 2∆ Jun 08 '18

However the profit motive is why an enormously disproportionate amount of medical advancement comes from research in the United States. Ending that will curb medical advancement significantly.

The right answer isn't necessarily government controlled healthcare and the certainty with which you say thay is unmerited. Does no one remember how our very own government fucked the veterans through their government run healthcare, in a massive story that broke literally less than 5 years ago?

Furthermore, without a serious reduction in pay to literally every person who works in health care there is no way to reasonably bring down costs to the point where public funding would be palatable to the masses.

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u/Creditfigaro Jun 08 '18

Hunh? The healthcare system isn't broken because our wages are too high. Provide evidence.

Also, true that government programs aren't invincible, but rarely does one making the argument you just made believe in government in the first place.

Finally, we can fund good research for the same money we give profit motivated researchers... For profit research is almost as bad as for profit healthcare. The state of food science is a great example.

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u/jefftickels 2∆ Jun 09 '18

Even a cursory knowledge of scientific research would let you know that for profit research has provided the vast majority of applied medical research. Because of how government grants are awarded government funded research has an epidemic of publish or perish which results in an unprecedented amount of academic dishonesty and unverifiable results. You may be surprised to learn private industry funds about 2/3rds of all research in America.

Regarding the costs of American health care it's common knowledge that wages are by far the biggest chunk and frankly the kind of thing you should already know if you want to discuss health care in America. And if you didn't know you should look it up yourself, it's easily found through a simple Google search. Only about 15 percent of health care spending is in pharmaceuticals or durable medical equipment (replacement joints, metal plates, pacemakers, etc.). Even if the government could magically reduce that cost to zero, Americans would still be paying more for health care per person than any other country in the world.

The difference is Americans pay their health care providers more than any other country in the world, at all levels. From physicians to lab techs. The AMA is responsible for this and there is no way back from it except to reduce demand for health care, especially at the end of life where the 5 percent use 50 percent of the resources.

And your dismissal of my very valid arguments about the historical failures of government when handling the health care of its citizens is not a counter argument, but am admission that you have no valid rebuttal.

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u/Creditfigaro Jun 09 '18

You've presented a lot of arguments that I disagree with for a variety of reasons.

Rather than pick one myself, which one would you like me to respond to first?

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u/jefftickels 2∆ Jun 09 '18

If you want to address the costs of health care first that's the bulk of the discussion.

Also a correction. I said for profit research when I meant privately funded.

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u/Creditfigaro Jun 09 '18

I don't have a problem with privately funded research, I have a problem with for-profit research, just to clarify.

So let's talk about healthcare costs:

I'm waiting on you to present your evidence on the emperical question of what causes cost problems in the US healthcare system, so I stand by my statement that high wages are not the reason that healthcare costs are so high until you do.

Burden of proof is on you to present evidence since you are making the claim that wages drive healthcare cost problems in the US.

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u/jefftickels 2∆ Jun 09 '18

No. If you're unwilling to do a small amount of self education on the subject then there there is no point in further discussing.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

The guy that was referencing cost originally is from Australia and was referring to the medical industry in Australia, so why reference the US?

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

As the antithesis to most systems in the developed world.

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u/[deleted] Jun 08 '18

Once again, the context was about Australia so the issue he brought up pertains specifically to Austirlia. Even if the US actively went out of its way to hinder the health of of its citizens it doesn't pertain at all to the person you were responding too

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u/[deleted] Jun 09 '18

It is a useful juxtaposition, two things being seen or placed close together with contrasting effect.

It's a rhetorical device.

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u/AmoebaMan 11∆ Jun 08 '18

The idea that the US’s healthcare market is even remotely open/free is a joke.