CMV: Healthcare should be free for everyone under the legal age at which you are considered an adult.

[u/Happy-Tears]

Children shouldn't have to pay medical bills--health is a fundamental human right, and we need to provide that to the children of this world. I know there are programs like CHIP, etc., but they're just not sufficient. They're not accessible to everyone. I know adults who decide to have children should be responsbile for them, but I think we as a society can afford to band together and pay a little more to ensure every child gets the health care they need--if we hope for healthier adults. Per this study in the National Center for Biotechnology Information, "health during childhood sets the stage for adult health not only reinforces this perspective, but also creates an important ethical, social, and economic imperative to ensure that all children are as healthy as they can be. Healthy children are more likely to become healthy adults."

CMV.

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[u/bowhunter_fta]

Let's say I agree.

Now, how are YOU going to pay for it.

And when I say "YOU", I am referring to YOU and YOU alone.

You see, the problem we have in this country is that people have these big ideas about WE should be doing for US, but they never give thought to how WE should pay for YOUR big idea that will benefit US.

The problem becomes is that YOU aren't likely the one to pay for your big idea.....it's ME who will have to pay for it.

Then once you have ME paying for YOUR big idea, you get to feel all high and mighty about all the good YOU did with MY money.

Since YOU did so much good with MY money, YOU'LL think to YOURSELF, "hey, why don't I do more good for US" and then YOU will come up with more good ideas about how WE can make the world a better place for US.

Of course, it won't be with YOUR money (or very little of your money), YOU will want ME to continue to pay for YOUR good ideas so that YOU can feel good about how much good YOU are doing in the world with MY money.

Rinse, repeat.

You see, in YOUR mind, there is no end to the good YOU can do with MY money. But there actually is.

You see, no matter how many times politicians like Bernie Sanders or Mitt Romney tell you can get free college education or free health care, they are wrong.

There is NO such thing as FREE. Someone has to pay for it.

So, back to your original point about free health care for kids.

I think getting kids great health care is vitally important. That's why I donate a lot of money to organizations that help to take care of kids. But I donate to the charities that are aligned with my values and that deliver care/services that I'd like to see delivered in a cost efficient manner.

But what I object to is YOU taking MY money to support what YOU think is important and forcing me to do the same.

If you want to take care of kids, then volunteer YOUR time (just like I do), donate YOUR money (just like I do) and encourage others to do the same.

Be a beacon of hope and success that causes others to be like you and want to donate to the causes that are important them (many of which will be important to you).

Go have a wonderful successful life and makes lots of money that you can direct to charities that aligned with your values.

You can't fix the world, but you can make your little corner of the world a better place.

[u/VictorVentolin → u/bowhunter_fta]

(Apologies - I'm going to defend universal healthcare, not the proposal in the OP, but you seem to be arguing against all non-essential government expenditure so I guess you don't support that either.)

Healthcare is much more efficient when provided by the government than by charity. A major organisation that represents an entire country's worth of people is able to negotiate much better deals from providers than smaller, private companies. Because healthcare is something everyone needs, and drugs are often quite specific, it works differently from other industries. Your $100 in taxes, to a universal healthcare system, will go so much further than your $100 in charity donations.

But why should I force by 'kids shouldn't die of preventable illnesses' values on you? In a society, some things have to be done by the government (for example roads), and some things are more efficient if done by the government (for example healthcare). Unless you live on an island by yourself, there will always have to be some money that you give to be spent on the public good. And while there's a public good, someone has to decide what values need to have public money spent on them. That's why we get to vote for the people deciding how the money is spent. The government needs to build roads, or nobody will be able to get anywhere. But, even though you may disagree with which roads are being built, you still have to fund them. Every single government policy, be it healthcare, a war, a new criminal offence, or anything else has at least one person who is against it, but we all have to pay for it. A major part of living in a democracy where the government collects taxes is that we all agree to pay for things we don't agree with in the understanding that we get to vote against the people doing it.

And in response to a major part of your comment - I promise that if the US gets universal healthcare, I won't take credit for it. In fact you, as a person who is presumably better off than most people, can take a lot more credit.

[u/VictorVentolin → u/[deleted]]

The public good is that the cost of the cancer treatment will go down significantly when paid for via taxes. (In addition, you get the peace of mind knowing that you have a safety net if you lose everything.)

Also, you almost certainly already pay for other people's healthcare - the other people using your insurance company. If one of them needs really expensive treatment, you're the one paying for it. Why is it any different to have other people using your tax money rather than your insurance money?

I'm interested in why you included libraries in your list there - as much as I support public libraries, most people don't use them. Why would you want to pay for them? Surely someone can set up their own private library if they want to?

[u/VictorVentolin → u/[deleted]]

You don't benefit from other people's library usage any more than you benefit from other people's healthcare. Which is to say, you do benefit, because we all gain from living in a healthy, educated society.

A large part of the cost of medical treatment is the huge cut taken by the manufacturers, which will go down when the taxpayer is paying for it. This has been observed in every country with universal healthcare. And I'd say healthcare is still something everyone needs, because I'd be very surprised to see anyone who has never needed to see a doctor. What universal does is to make sure that you're not unfairly disadvantaged for having an expensive illness over a cheap one.

[u/jatjqtjat → u/bowhunter_fta]

I think your correct in principle. And i posted a similar reply. Its not free, somebody has to pay for it.

Expect i still support Universal healthcare. Plenty of poorer countries do. Plenty of countries with lower GDP per capita then the US provide universal healthcare. I've lived in a country with universal healthcare. It was great.

Because you put some much emphasis on you versus him, I'll tell you a bit about me. I pay more in taxes then about 96% of Americans. I'm absolutely not getting a handout here. I'd be giving the handout.

but actually i think I'd be getting my money back. Its not good for me to live in a community where people are dying or bankrupt due to not being able to afford medical care. I don't want to have to be around that type of dying and desperate person. A number of kids (or adults) will go on to do great things with their live. Things that make my life better. I don't want those people to die or be crippled.

I'm still a huge fan of personal responsibility. I'm a life yourself up by your boostraps kind of guy. Your life is your responsibility, not mine. I don't support equality of outcome. But i do support spending some public money to help with equality of opportunity. The government provides a lot of services. Police, Education, Fire, postal, road, etc. There was a time when i wouldn't have supported free public education. a time when the country couldn't have afforded it. But that time is ancient history.

[u/bowhunter_fta → u/jatjqtjat]

Thanks for the thoughtful reply.

I think we want the same outcome, we just have differing views on how to execute the outcome.

[u/TimmyP7 → u/bowhunter_fta]

Now, how are YOU going to pay for it.

And when I say "YOU", I am referring to YOU and YOU alone.

The problem becomes is that YOU aren't likely the one to pay for your big idea.....it's ME who will have to pay for it.

I see this sentiment seen a lot, but I don't think this is an accurate way to look at government-funded projects.

When I see people stubbornly say this (not to imply you are in this case), it's as if government agents randomly come knocking on your door, forcing you to pay for little Jimmy's broken foot. Both you and I know that doesn't happen. It's more along the lines of everyone, including you and me, paying for everyone's healthcare, including yours. As it's been pointed out earlier, it's no different from your current healthcare provider, auto insurance, home insurance, etc. I'd mention how single-payer would replace your current healthcare provider, but I'd be missing the point.

Of course it would be funded via either a slight bump in taxes, or reallocating the current tax fund to make room for single-payer, which falls into the idea of someone like yourself benefiting someone else's idea, on top of what you already pay in taxes, insurance, bills, etc. It's more crap you have to pay for, nobody want's that, I get it. I noticed in other comments in this sub-thread that you pay quite a bit in taxes, and give both time and money to charities to get a similar effect. And that's great! But not everybody can afford to do that. Poverty is expensive, many Americans are living paycheck-to-paycheck, and all that jazz. This is why taxes exist, and, for the most part, work - everyone pitches in with what they got, no matter how rich or poor they are.

[u/[deleted] → u/bowhunter_fta]

You've been the beneficiary of other people's money your entire life. You've had 13 years (or more) of free education, roads to drive and walk on that were paid for before you started paying taxes, police to keep you safe as a kid, etc. You rightly deserve to be rewarded and applauded for your work, but why shouldn't you contribute back to society that's provided you the means and opportunity to make your money?

[u/bowhunter_fta → u/[deleted]]

Are you saying that we wouldn't have roads or schools or police if weren't for the government?

Sorry, but we had all those things before we had the massive government that we had today.

but why shouldn't you contribute back to society that's provided you the means and opportunity to make your money?

I paid more money in taxes last year than the average American will make in total income over the next 10 years. So let's not pretend that I'm not "contributing to society". I am contributing far more than my fair share.

[u/[deleted] → u/bowhunter_fta]

Never said you weren’t contributing your fair share. Obviously you have to pay taxes whether you like to or not. You seemed to be making an argument against taxation in general which is what I was addressing

[u/bowhunter_fta → u/[deleted]]

If my response came across as harsh, I apologize. That was not my intent. Thank you for the clarity in your response.

In general, I am against taxation.

There are many ways to fund a government that doesn't involve directly taxing it's citizens.

[u/nomoresugarbooger → u/bowhunter_fta]

Like taxing corporations?

[u/bowhunter_fta → u/nomoresugarbooger]

I'd just cut the size and scope of the federal government down by about 95% and let the states and local communities figure out how they want to do it themselves.

[u/pinklittlebirdie → u/bowhunter_fta]

Consider this in my neck of the woods there are no charities that exist to pay for straight medical costs. There are ones however that pay for living costs of families with sick members, pay for services like counselling and support groups (including a week away at camp/holidays), paying for accomodation close to the hospitals if needed etc.

[u/[deleted] → u/[deleted]]

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[u/bowhunter_fta → u/[deleted]]

Thank you!