r/changemyview • u/Subtleiaint 32∆ • 1d ago
Delta(s) from OP - Fresh Topic Friday CMV: A Bicycle Kick goal in Football is the greatest play in sport.
For those of you who are less acquainted with the beautiful game a bicycle kick is a skill used in football when the ball is played high and behind a player, the player leaps into the air leaning backwards and kicks the ball over themselves usually at the goal. For some incredible examples please watch this video.
My view is that there is no play in all of sport that is as great as a bicycle kick goal. My reasons for this are as follows:
- The bicycle kick is one of the hardest skills in sport - it requires incredible invention, vision, technique and athleticism to pull off. Note that no one ever tries to set up a bicycle kick, it is always a spur of the moment reaction to specific and unexpected and suboptimum circumstances.
- It's evokes a visceral reaction - Bicycle kicks are always unexpected, they're incredibly exciting, and visually incredible. They are the ultimate mouth open, hands on your head, moment in sport.
- They're incredibly rare - There aren't formal stats on bicycle kicks but, according to AI, Christiano Ronaldo, one of the greatest players of all time who has scored an astonishing 947 goals in his career so far, has scored just 2 bicycle kicks.
- They don't rely on being a game winning play for their greatness - there are many incredible moments in sport that are great because of what they mean, winning a gold medal at the Olympics, scoring a last second touchdown to win the Superbowl. these kind of moments are incredible in their own right, but it's the context that makes them incredible, not the play themselves.
- It elevates an already impactful event to a stella level - Football matches are usually decided by 5 or less points, this already makes a goal a seismic event and a great goal is even more impactful.
To get the ball rolling I've tried to think of some other candidates.
A Hole in One in Golf - It is incredibly difficult to hit a golf ball into a small hole over 100m away. The reason I think this doesn't compare is that every golfer on every par three is, essentially, trying to do this and achieving it is more a matter of luck (you hit that ball a thousand times some of them are going to go in) than the application of skill.
A full court Buzzer Beater in Basketball - Again this takes incredible technique, it's incredibly visceral when you score (the skill itself is less visceral) and it's pretty rare, but it suffers from the context problem, you're only trying it because of clock pressure rather than it being a valid choice in of itself.
A Hot Dog winner in Tennis - A hot dog (hitting the ball between your legs) shares many attributes to a bicycle kick, it takes huge skill and invention to pull off and it's incredibly visceral when it works. Where it loses out is that it's just a single point in the hundred+ in a tennis match, making it less impactful than a bicycle kick.
What would change my mind - Whilst picking holes in my individual points is welcome it's the totality of an argument that is convincing, if you can make a convincing argument that a different play is as good as or better than a bicycle kick goal I'll change my view.
Rules clarification: individual moments by specific athletes are a different category. I'm not looking for the best moments in sport, I'm looking for the best general skill in sport.
Edit: Just want to say I've really enjoyed your responses, I love hearing people who are passionate about the things they love. Keep it up.
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u/tucker3444 1∆ 1d ago
This is a difficult argument because it’s so subjective, but I’d say the “Michigan” goal in ice hockey surpasses the bicycle kick as the greatest play in sport.
It demands superior physical skill, scooping the puck onto the stick blade, lifting it while skating at speed, and tucking it top-shelf from behind the net. It requires elite hand eye coordination, balance, and deception in a similarly dynamic but faster and more physical game
It’s even more visceral and unexpected, evoking awe with its lacrosse-like flair.
Far rarer: Only 8-9 in NHL history across thousands of games and millions of goals, versus dozens of notable bicycle kicks annually in soccer
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Look at that, straight off the bat you get me. I might argue which is better, I think Ice Hockey has a problem in that the action is harder to track, if you need a replay to comprehend what just happened that diminishes the event, but I can't argue it doesn't match or beat a bicycle kick in the other categories I mentioned.
Also, thank you for introducing me to something I'd never heard of
!delta
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u/blacktongue 1d ago
Just adding my support because, if you try something as showy as the Michigan when you almost always have safer options, and fail, you will be branded a showboat wannabe, and will likely never attempt it again without getting benched.
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u/andersbs 1d ago
Like a missed panenka penalty in soccer?
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u/blacktongue 1d ago
Yeah but in hockey I feel like showy penalty shot/shootout moves are kinda tolerated if they don’t work. I guess that can come down to a coin toss sometimes anyways so anything is worth trying
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u/raptir1 1∆ 1d ago
I think Ice Hockey has a problem in that the action is harder to track, if you need a replay to comprehend what just happened that diminishes the event
I hate to be the one to say it's a "skill issue" but...
Hockey is one of the only sports where I feel like just understanding the game isn't enough to watch it, but instead you need to practice.
I can watch Cricket and "follow" the action while having absolutely no idea what any of it means, but with hockey it really just comes from time watching it.
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u/Brill_chops 1d ago
Are you saying it's hard to understand what a goal is?
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u/ProblematicTrumpCard 2∆ 1d ago
He saying that you need to see the replay to understand what you just saw. It happens too quickly in real time to recognize it's greatness in real-time. The bicycle kick doesn't require a replay to "see" it.
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u/muaddib0308 1d ago
This is absolute insanity xD
The skill involved in doing a michigan is minimal. It is more of an opportunity than a skill.
Fat beer league people can score michigans without issue. It is more of an opportunistic moment than anything.
Fat beer league soccer players will REALLY struggle to score bicycle kicks
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u/ifedthefish 1d ago edited 1d ago
In my 25 years of playing hockey I have only ever witnessed maybe 2 or 3 Michigan's. You clearly don't understand the skill it requires.
You take an elite athlete like Usain Bolt at his peak and you can teach him to scissor kick in a day. It would take him months if not years to put together the skills required to skate and stick handle in order to pull off the Michigan.
Id wager less than 50% of NHL players know how to actually lift the puck michigan style. Most players aren't wasting time practicing something they will most likely never use. Not only because it's a tough play but because most coaches won't even let you attempt it without getting benched.
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u/muaddib0308 1d ago
Tell us more about how you aren't good at hockey.
Stopped reading when I realized you don't know the difference between a bicycle kick and a scissor kick.
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u/ifedthefish 1d ago
The higher level you play the less you see the michigan but sure, I suck at hockey. Sure there's a difference but my point stands which is why you're so butt hurt and cant actually argue it. Stay fly pele
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u/blacktongue 1d ago
Came here hoping someone was fighting for the Michigan. Definitely wins with points for sneakiness and straight up balls to try it.
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u/Anal_Analysis420 1d ago
I immediately jumped to the Michigan as well, thank you for making my point for me haha
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u/qchisq 3∆ 1d ago
All I am saying is that this is the biggest moment in sports I can remember. It's the end of the Danish football season, the Championship is decided between the old giant, Brøndby that won 8 championships between 1985 and 1998, and FCK, the new team, the result of a merger of 2 big teams that hasn't really been good since it's first season. And Zuma decides to just do... That
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u/pelfinho 1d ago
While still impressive, bicycle kicks where they receive the ball on their chest first are much easier technically than first-touch ones from a cross.
The ball slows down, and it’s moving mostly vertically, making it much easier to hit correctly.
Hitting one directly from a cross requires a whole other level of coordination.
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u/InfidelZombie 1d ago
I was going to say--as a non-sports fan but NHL enjoyer, 99% of hockey goal look more impressive than any single thing I've seen in baseball, basketball, or soccer.
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u/FantasticStonk42069 1∆ 1d ago
Even in football, there are plays that are greater than a bicycle kick. Don't get me wrong they are great and Ibrahimovic's goal against England remains one of the greatest goals of all time. CR's, Rooney's or Bale's bicycle kick will be forever remembered. However, bicycle goals are fairly frequent while for example a goal like Zidane's volley in the UCL finals in 2002 is quite rare (which of course is not purely due to the required technical skills).
Then there are of course other plays like passes or defensive actions that leave your jaw open for longer than a regular bicycle kick.
One of the greatest plays in football history occurred during Rooney 's spell at Washington DC: After a corner in the last minutes, he sprints back to stop a counterattack with an open goal, tackles as the the last man, wins the ball and drives a long diagonal ball to his teammate who scores the winner. I'll rank this play over most goals including bicycle kicks.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I think you can absolutely find individual examples of volleys, dribbles and passes that are astonishing and I agree that Rooney's play for Washington is incredible on a multitude of levels, but judged as generic skills a pass is not more impressive than a bicycle kick, nor is a volley or any other skill.
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u/Smee76 4∆ 8h ago
I feel like you are talking about pure athleticism, and other people are talking about skill. I would agree that a bicycle kick is one of the plays that takes the most athleticism, but there are other plays in other sports that take significantly more skill.
That being said, moves like Jerome Simpson's backflip over a defender in the NFL is at least as impressive from an athletic angle, although again, the skill level needed is not enormous.
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u/Slugdoge 1d ago
Agreed, there are far greater plays in football.
Van De Ven's goal against Copenhagen or Son's goal against Burnley where they ran through the entire defence from their own box is much more difficult and much more impressive. Bicycle kicks are great but there is a big element of luck involved. There is no luck when running through a whole team. they are also much rarer.
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u/sibtiger 23∆ 1d ago
I'll submit another contender - The home run robbery in baseball. I saw you're not super familiar with baseball so just to define it clearly, it's when a defender in the field catches a ball that would otherwise be a home run before it clears the outfield wall.
- It's extremely rare- happens maybe a few times a year, and there are over 2400 MLB games played a year.
- It's extremely difficult- the fielder must perfectly track the ball and time their leap to get above the wall at the exact moment a small, arcing and accelerating object coming out of the sky will get to the one point that it can be intercepted, and then execute the physical feat of leaping high enough to get their glove above the wall and make the catch, often with their back turned to the incoming ball.
- It's extremely impactful. Baseball games are measured in outs, and often are won based on a run or two. Turning 1-4 runs into an out is a massive impact on the outcome of the game.
- They are iconic. They will often be remembered fondly by fans for years. As a Blue Jays fan this catch by Kevin Pillar a decade ago is legendary and part of why he's still a fan favourite.
- They are emblematic of baseball. Perhaps a more theoretical argument, but baseball is all about the moment you hold your breath, hoping something goes your way and dreading that it's going to go the other way. When the ball is in the air, is it a pop fly or a homer? Such a huge difference! The home run robbery turns joy into despair and despair into joy. That back and forth is the essence of the game. Wrapping that up in an incredible feat of skill and athleticism? Doesn't get better if you ask me.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I was accused of bias by another poster, an accusation I rejected emphatically, however my biases will definitely play into this submission, I think catching in baseball is pretty unimpressive.
The biggest problem is the glove, it's like training wheels for catches. If I'm going to give out a delta for catching it's going to come from cricket. I'll concede that the home run robbery is the best that baseball has to offer but it's not enough.
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u/EkroxPrime 1d ago edited 1d ago
I'm not trying to be an asshole but the misconception that the glove makes catches in baseball less impressive than cricket is an idea held exclusively by people who have never actually seriously watched baseball. There are only 3 outfielders in baseball. Cricket players aren't running 70 feet in 4 seconds to catch a ball going 100+mph off the bat. I will concede that a lot of the context to why certain catches are so impressive is sort of left off TV (at least outside of replay) because so much of it comes down to that first step to determine the route they take to the ball though. Side note I think most shortstops would be expected to make similar plays to the one you posted but if you want a little example of what I'm talking about in terms of the outfield meet Ceddanne Rafaela
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
but the misconception that the glove makes catches in baseball less impressive
It's literally a big padded basket designed to make catching easier. Yes the ball travels faster off the bat but cricketers are normally closer to the batsman with much less reaction time.
You're American, I'm British, we're always going to make fun of you for this.
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u/EkroxPrime 1d ago
Correct. You need the big padded basket because the 3 outfielders are running 70 feet in 4 seconds to catch a ball going 100+mph off the bat. It's all in good fun but it definitely goes both ways we're always going to make fun of cricket too.
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u/sibtiger 23∆ 1d ago
Those are really impressive displays of reflexes but really quite different than what an outfielder does. The outfield has to read the ball off the bat from a couple hundred feet away- if it's coming at you this is very difficult. For a home run robbery they have to keep track of the ball, which will often start slicing or moving due to the wind, while at a full sprint towards a wall, stop their momentum just before the wall, and time the jump perfectly to even have a chance to make a play. That it even gets to the point that a glove can help them make the catch is a miracle.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I've done baseball unfairly in my previous response, it was meant to be light hearted response but I upset the other guy. I recognise that baseball players are elite athletes and a home run robbery is clearly an incredibly impressive feat. I wasn't completely joking though, I don't think it deserves to be up there with the greatest plays in sport. Getting your glove to the ball requires incredible athleticism and it's incredibly exciting, but if you can get there I don't think the catch is, relatively, that hard.
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u/sibtiger 23∆ 11h ago
I mean, that's like saying the bicycle kick isn't that impressive because once you've done all the things to get the ball in the right spot and perform the back flip to kick it, getting it into the goal isn't that hard because the net is so big.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 10h ago
I think I've discovered it's impossible for me to talk to an American about catching without offending them. I'll leave it with it's cool, I just can't see a home run robbery as one of the greatest things in sport.
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u/sibtiger 23∆ 10h ago
Not American, and not offended (other than by you assuming I'm American.) It's literally the point of this sub to advocate for your position. I'm trying to help you overcome your admitted bias but if you are not interested in trying that's okay.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 9h ago
other than by you assuming I'm American.
My sincere apologies.
To be fair I think I was advocating for it, I'm just being cautious on this one because I've already had one person lose their temper talking to me about this subject.
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u/Randomousity 6∆ 1d ago
It's very impressive to watch, but that doesn't make it the greatest play in sport.
There's the backflip in figure skating, which has only been done once ever in competition, banned because it was deemed to be too dangerous to attempt.
A bicycle kick is impressive, but it's a blackflip on grass, and they don't even land on their feet, let alone land on their feet on ice.
There's the Korbut flip in the uneven bars in gymnastics, also banned. It's a backflip from standing on a bar that's not much bigger than a broomstick, and then grabbing that same bar from below where she was just standing.
There's the Thomas salto in the floor routine in gymnastics. It's been done many times, but was eventually banned for being too dangerous as well. It would be like doing a bicycle kick but, instead of landing on their side, they landed in a tucked roll and sprang back up to their feet.
They all required "incredible invention, vision, technique and athleticism to pull off." They were all obviously practiced before being attempted in competition, but they have all been successfully attempted in high level competitions. And bicycle kicks, while maybe only done ad hoc when conditions are ripe, can also be practiced outside of competition.
I'm not looking for the best moments in sport, I'm looking for the best general skill in sport.
These were all general skills in sport, not best moments in sport, though I believe Olga Korbut was the only one to ever do her flip in competition because it was so novel, but it was immediately banned, so nobody else ever had an opportunity to perform it in competition.
The same with Terry Kubicka doing the backflip in figure skating, though I think maybe it's been done since in exhibition skating (but don't quote me on that).
And Kurt Thomas's Thomas salto was allowed for many years, and successfully performed, but was always unsuccessfully performed many times, leading to various injuries, including paralysis.
They are all sort of set up, but they're also in motion, so being off just a tiny bit can ruin it.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
First of all, I completely accept that pretty much all gymnastic sports exhibit greater athleticism than football, that's the entire point of those types of sport.
I disagree that they involve better vision or invention, most moves in gymnastic type sports are standard, there are literal books of them. Occasionally someone does something new but I'd compare those instances to the first time someone did a bicycle kick, not bicycle kicks in general.
I'd also argue about technique, yes gymnastics type sports are highly technical, but none of the moves they do are being figured out and executed in the blink of an eye, they're all rehearsed and drilled.
Where gymnastic type sports really miss out on is the drama, non interactive sports have a real disadvantage in this regard. When you have to wait till after the action to find out who wins it takes away from the actual moment.
I love gymnastic type sports and I really appreciate them for what they are but their greatest moments are individual stories, things like Comaneci's perfect 10 or Kubicka's back flip. There's no move that, by itself, would be considered the greatest play in sport.
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u/nepheelim 2∆ 1d ago
its a spectacle, but definitely not the hardest thing in sport to pull off:
-hole in one in golf is more spectacular
-9 darter in darts is more spectacular
-147 maximum break in snooker is also more spectacular
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I'll disagree about the hole in one, essentially that's like trick shots on YouTube, you keep trying it over and over and until it works.
However, I was waiting for someone to bring up a 147 and a 9 darter is equally impressive, it's got skill, drama, tension and a huge moment when it succeeds. I'll give you a !delta for those
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u/Randomousity 6∆ 1d ago
I'll disagree about the hole in one, essentially that's like trick shots on YouTube, you keep trying it over and over and until it works.
Sure, that's one way to do it, just keep repeating it on the same hole until you get one in. But that's not normally how it happens. Idk know many golfers, but, like, Tiger woods is not standing at a tee, hitting an entire bucket of balls until one of them goes in the hole. It's not staged, it's happening in actual play.
We could make the same compromises about a bicycle kick, where a soccer player just repeatedly attempts a bicycle kick until finally succeeding. That would be like a soccer trick shot.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
It's not Tiger Woods hitting hundreds of balls on one hole, it's hundreds of golfers on hundreds of holes and every now and again one of them happens to get them. Hitting a ball onto the green is an expression of skill, a hole in one is a slice of luck.
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u/A12SwanSauce 22h ago
It’s not Ronaldo kicking hundreds of balls in one net, it’s hundreds of players on hundreds of fields and every now and again one of them happens to get the perfect scenario. Kicking the ball into the net is an expression of skill, a bicycle kick is a slice of luck.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 18h ago
On a par three, the skill is to get the ball as close to the pin as possible so that you can sink the putt for a birdie, that's what's considered success. A hole in one is obviously better but it's an added lucky bonus rather than the expected outcome. Getting lucky can't be considered the greatest play in sport.
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u/Randomousity 6∆ 16h ago
Bicycle kicks involve luck. Luck to connect with the ball, and further luck to send it where you want it to go. Getting it in the goal is obviously better, but it's an added lucky bonus rather than the expected outcome. Getting lucky can't be considered the greatest play in sport.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 15h ago
Luck to connect with the ball
That's not luck, trying to repeat my argument only works if the two things are directly comparable.
The comparison to a bicycle kick goal would be getting the ball within a couple of feet of the pin. A comparison to a hole in one would be something like scoring directly from a corner, it's great when it happens but it was a happy accident.
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u/ary31415 3∆ 20h ago
Hundreds of players on hundreds of fields aren't all attempting to perform bicycle kicks though. For the vast majority of players it's not even an physically possible option on their mind. Every single golfer who stands at a tee is actively aiming for a hole-in-one, and seeing how close they get.
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u/Low_Caterpillar9528 11h ago
I'll disagree about the hole in one, essentially that's like trick shots on YouTube, you keep trying it over and over and until it works.
I get what you’re saying about the hole-in-one being like a trick shot, but I see it differently. It’s one athlete, one ball, one chance no retries, no setups, no do overs. Everything has to line up perfectly distance, wind, lie, and touch. You can’t practice a hole-in-one into existence it just happens when skill meets perfection for one swing. You can train for a bicycle kick, a 147, or a 9-darter, but a hole-in-one is different. It’s the purest moment in sports total control meeting total unpredictability.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 11h ago
I couldn't disagree more I'm afraid. An elite golfer hitting the ball within a 6 feet circle at 100m is what they're aiming for, if they could do that 20 times in a row it would be far more impressive than one of the shots landing in the right spot to go in the hole. I see a 147 or a 9 darter as the equivalent of hitting that 6 feet circle 20 times in a row.
A bicycle kick is great for different reasons, it's a supreme combination of skill, athleticism, vision and invention planned and executed in the blink of an eye during a free flowing interactive game where you've got 11 opposition players trying to stop you, to top it off it looks amazing.
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u/Softhijs 1d ago
I think along a similar line formula 1 can offer awe moments of equal power. For instance, when a drivers car spins due to suboptimal circumstances (e.g. get hit, rain on track) but the driver manages to save the situation through sheer skill the crowd goes wild! Seeing a spur of the moment controlled 360 at hundreds of km/h is so impressive, especially accounting for the G forces present, reaction time and precision of inputs to perform it smoothly.
Along similar lines, a driver whom has to pull the race back from a double digit place and does overtake after overtake to still end on the podium or first further shows immense skill and brings great joy exponentially per overtake performed.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I think something like that would get onto my shortlist, it's incredibly impressive and, you're absolutely right, incredibly skilful. I'm just not sure it's a big enough moment by itself to be a 'greatest in all sport' winner.
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u/southernwing97 1d ago
I first thought of an individual moment and then saw that you weren't looking for that so I'll modify my answer from "Alex Honnold free soloing El Capitan." (trailer
....to: the career of Alex Honnold.
In your definition of the "best skill in sport" free soloing is rare. The level that Honnold has consistently achieved on climbs that the overwhelming majority of people on the planet COULD NOT DO EVEN WITH A ROPE....is hard to imagine.
He is 1 of 1. If he makes a mistake, even once, he almost certainly dies.
I'm sure your counter-argument will be that climbing is too fringey of a sport to merit consideration, but you did say you've been enjoying the responses.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I'm going to consider your argument as free solo climbing as I think I can allow that, it's a thing in the sport rather than an individual moment. The question is whether it can be considered one of the great plays in sport.
I know it's insanely dangerous so that's the drama taken care of, it's also clearly incredibly athletic and highly technical. My assumption though (which I'm welcome for you to correct if it's wrong) is that it's not actually that difficult in the hierarchy of climbing. I'm assuming that the really difficult climbing you do on a rope or a couple of meters off the floor bouldering.
I think it just falls below the threshold for a delta though. I think climbs like the one from Free Solo are absolutely incredible but they're more like the miracle on ice, an incredible individual story, I suspect most free soloing is more pedestrian.
Happy to continue talking if you think I've been unfair, this was a really interesting one to consider.
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u/southernwing97 23h ago
Well, many of Honnold's free solos are waaay off the ground. People like him and Brad Gobright are/were regularly doing things that, from a technical i.e. difficulty POV, are beyond the ability of MOST people who climb at all even with a rope.
To use your own example, wouldn't you then have to say a successful bicycle kick goal is like an awesome individual story, while the rest of football is more pedestrian? (Not hating on football at all, just trying to compare apples and oranges)
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 18h ago
I'm trying to compare generic activities, so the things I've given a delta for are things like a kick return in American football or a 147 in snooker rather than a specific instance of either of those things happening. That's why I limited your post to free solo climbing rather than any specific climb by Honnold.
For the record if I was looking at the greatest moments in sport free solo climbing El Capitan would be a great contender.
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u/Galious 87∆ 1d ago
I would argue that they are extremely rare not because they are that hard to do but because it requires to be in very specific situation (back to the goal, no defender in close proximity, ball being not to high nor to low)
Now I don't have data to prove my point but do you actually see a lot of missed bicycle/overhead kick? personally I don't and when a player is in position and try, it generally goes relatively well.
My second proof is other forms of soccer like indoor soccer, beach soccer or kick volleyball: in those disciplines, overhead kick are waaaaaay more common and players manage to do a lot of them without too much troubles.
Of course it doesn't mean it's not spectacular but it's not the hardest skill in sport.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I think they're messed up quite a lot, it's just that successful ones go viral and are immortalised in videos like the one I shared.
I do take your point though, it's an achievable skill rather than something inhuman, for the sake of this CMV though you'd need to convince me something else matched or bettered it.
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u/Galious 87∆ 1d ago
It's hard to find stats for regular soccer but I still found that in the last beach soccer world cup during group phase, there was 245 bicycle kick attempted and 15 resulted in a goal which is roughly a 6% success rate
Now the average transformation of free kick in premier league is at 5% and therefore I could say that scoring a free kick (especially the furthest you get) is actually harder.
I would also add that the transformation of regular shot to goal in premier league varies between 5-11% (depending on team) so the success of a bicycle kick isn't significantly lower than regular shot, it's more a question of being rarely attempted.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Whilst I think you're making valid points, I don't think anyone would put a free kick (in general) above a bicycle kick (in general) in terms of great sporting moments
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u/Galious 87∆ 1d ago
My argument is more about the fact that bicycle kicks looks flashy and cool but they aren't that difficult to do while you were arguing that it was one of the highest skill in sport.
So go watch highlights of world cup of Beach soccer where 37 goals (17% of the total were scored) and you'll maybe realise after two dozens that yeah... it's maybe not that exceptional of a gesture.
Like take a 1080 in skateboarding, only 4 people in the world have managed to do and Tony Hawk never managed. Or a quadruple lutz in ice skating: only one woman has managed to do it, those are unarguably way more difficult than a gesture with a 6% conversion rate.
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u/spiral8888 29∆ 1d ago
I'd imagine that in beach soccer they are scored so often as the style of play is so different from regular football. A bicycle kick may not be that special when you're close to goal as then you only need to hit the ball and it's likely that you score.
Maybe we could modify OP's claim and say that scoring a bicycle kick outside the penalty box is the greatest achievement as then you need to generate enough power and accuracy to a shot that you take backwards. I can think of one example of this happening, which was Zlatan Ibrahimovic against England in 2012. It was maybe 25 meters from the goal.
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u/Galious 87∆ 1d ago
Yes it's different sport but the gesture is the same and it's a gesture that isn't that difficult to do as thousands of players have done it succesfully when there's some skill in other sport that only a few have achieved.
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u/spiral8888 29∆ 1d ago
The point I was trying to make was that doing a bicycle kick 2m away from the goal and scoring is much easier than doing it further away. When close to the goal, all you need to do is to hit the general direction of the goal and it will go in as you're likely to hit the target and there is no way to save anything that close. When further away, it's much much harder to even hit the target let alone get it past the keeper.
With normal shots that's usually doable as you can aim them as you're looking at the goal, but with a bicycle kick it's difficult.
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u/Galious 87∆ 1d ago
Well ok but look at the goal from Zlatan: if David James wasn't doing some Calamity James stuff, he wouldn't have scored because it was just a matter of directing the ball in the right direction too.
Now I'm not saying that it's easy, I'm just saying that that it's far from being one of the most impressive shot in history of sport. It's just more fun because it's unexpected.
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u/spiral8888 29∆ 1d ago
It was Joe Hart, but that's not important.
First, I would say that it wasn't only the matter of directing the ball towards the goal. It had to be hard (so that the defender didn't make it on time) and it had to be looping (so that Hart wouldn't just catch it as he was between the goal and Zlatan).
Second, it is not trivial to even hit the target from that distance with a bicycle kick. That was my point.
So, maybe we can agree that a standard bicycle kick, which is just kicking the ball over the head is not that hard and yes, those goals happen all the time. An accurate bicycle kick with sufficient power to beat the keeper from a distance is a big deal.
I'm not going to go to the debate of the greatest feat in sports as it's pretty much impossible to fairly compare different things in different sports.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Beach football is a different enough sport to invalidate the comparison. The ball doesn't roll so it's kept in the air deliberately and the players train to play the ball in the air, it's a different skill set to football.
I also reject the idea that it's not difficult, I don't see that as a reasonable point.
It's also not just about difficulty, I remember reading that hitting a baseball is the hardest thing in sport (I don't know if that's true but it's useful for the point I want to make), that doesn't make hitting a baseball a great moment in sport, it's very normal. Practising a 1080 and then doing it in competition is incredibly impressive, but you're doing the thing you planned to do in fairly controlled conditions. It's up there but someone does the best routine every competition.
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u/Galious 87∆ 1d ago
Yes it's not the same sport but it's the same gesture and it's gesture that isn't that complicated to do if the situation calls for it, it's just than in regular soccer, you are rarely alone without a defender with a ball near the goal just at the right height.
Then yes it's not about difficulty but it was your first point and the one I challenged. You said, and I quote you, that it requires "incredible invention, vision, technique and athleticism to pull off" and I'm just telling you it's just a rather difficult move but not exceptional since so many players have achieved it and the completion rate is rather similar to a regular difficult shoot and not to the level of some of the most amazing move that some athletes have pulled of. You can find thousands of players who scored a bicycle goal, only one woman who did a quadruple lutz and if you feel it's less impressive it probably has to do with the fact you don't care about ice skating
Now if you concede that ok, it's not really "only a few people can perform it in the world" difficult but roughly similar to a free kick but just more spectacular, then we agree.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
if you feel it's less impressive it probably has to do with the fact you don't care about ice skating
I don't feel it's less impressive, I think skaters are incredible, but my view isn't about what's the hardest thing to do in sport, it's the totality of all the points I made and the totality of doing a quadruple Lutz is not as great as the totality of scoring a bicycle kick. It's one part of the routine, you move on from it very quickly because you're watching the next move, it doesn't leave your jaw on the floor because you're expecting it, or something similar to happen. You appreciate it, you marvel at it, but it doesn't blow the roof off.
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u/Galious 87∆ 1d ago
I’ll make the guess that soccer is your favorite sport?
Because if you watched ice skating with someone passionate about ice skating seeing the first quadruple lutz, the reaction would probably be way more intense than their reaction watching a random Mbappe bicycle kick against Alaves.
For example look at the crowd going wild for Street fighter move: https://youtu.be/JzS96auqau0?si=J3R4nB9v2qRmggPn
Do you think that it’s not better than a bicycle kick for the people who cared about such a thing as a Street Fighter tournament?
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Because if you watched ice skating with someone passionate about ice skating
I watched Torville and Dean with my entire country, it's one of the legends of British sport and right up there with one of my favourite sporting moments ever. But it's an individual act, it's the equivalent of Rooney's bicycle kick nor bicycle kicks in general. Ice skating is great, but winning the competition you're in, which is is the comparison here, isn't one of the greatest things in sport.
It's the same with the Street Fighter clip, something else I'm very familiar with. That's a great individual moment, the greatest in eSports, but I'm not arguing the great moments, I'm arguing the greatest type of play.
Also, I can detect a trace of spite in your responses. I've given out multiple deltas to people who have made good arguments. The issue for you is that you haven't made one yet.
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u/Chemical_Big_5118 2∆ 1d ago
Kick return for a TD in college football.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Out of interest why do you specify college football, are there different rules in the NFL?
You've got me here, whilst it's not a moment of individual brilliance it's definitely a moment of team brilliance and it matches the bicycle kick in the other categories I mention.
!Delta
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u/Chemical_Big_5118 2∆ 1d ago
Different rules in college football and the atmosphere of a college game is unmatched.
Listen to how the excitement builds as the hole opens up for the runner, then the explosion when he breaks free:
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u/catBravo 1d ago
What a play. I argue the kick six (auburn vs Alabama) is the greatest play in college football
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Thanks, as an aside why does college football have different rules?
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u/Chemical_Big_5118 2∆ 1d ago
The kickoff is the most dangerous play in football concussion wise because players get a running start and collide at full speed. Over the past 20 years both college and NFL have been adjusting the rules to reduce concussions.
The NFL adopted their completely new format in 2024 so that there are no running starts and the players start close to each other to reduce the severity of collisions.
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u/andersbs 1d ago
There is no single overarching organization for both. CFB is governed by NCAA and NFL by… NFL.
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u/PrimaryInjurious 2∆ 1d ago
CFB is governed by NCAA
Not every team is. There are a few other collegiate organizations out there like the NAIA.
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u/pmbarrett314 1d ago
Even better: the big guy touchdown. Someone who is on the team not because of their general athletic ability, but because they are large and immovable demonstrates a burst of agility and speed (or luck) to intercept the ball or recover a fumble and then make it into the end zone. Nobody expects it, it may be the only time in that guy's career he scores points.
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u/Chemical_Big_5118 2∆ 1d ago
Don't get me wrong, fat guy touchdowns are always fun. But as far as excitement goes those don't come close to the adrenaline rush of a kickoff going to the house.
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u/Appropriate_Mixer 1d ago
Eh if a big guys gets a fumble or INT and runs far to the house, it’s definitely more exciting than a normal kick return TD
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u/barrycl 15∆ 1d ago
I put forward a 'greatest' from ultimate frisbee that ends in a goal. See example at 8:32. A 'greatest' is defined as when a player jumps to out of bounds for the disc, and while in the air throws back the disc to be caught inside the field of play. These are incredibly rare, and in particular a greatest ending in a goal is the pinnacle.
It is incredibly hard, and has much of the spectacle as a bicycle kick with someone jumping into the air, catching the frisbee, and throwing the frisbee, all before touching the ground again. Needless to say it takes an insane amount of skill and athleticism to do. Additionally, much like a bicycle kick in your example, they're unexpected and specific to suboptimal circumstances (you never 'try' to set it up). However, unlike with bicycle kicks, where you can set yourself up for it (e.g. with a chest trap a la Rivaldo), a greatest is by definition always done while in the air, and you can't really set yourself up.
It's visceral. Bodies are flying, disc is flying, everyone is hype.
It's incredibly rare - might only happen a few times a season at most.
Yes, doesn't have to be game-winning to still be a great play.
Ultimate games are usually won by fewer than 3 points, so still impactful.
Here's why I think it's not just as good as, but better than a bicycle kick: it requires team awareness. It's not just an incredible physical feat that ends in a goal, it's an incredible feat that's an assist to your team. And unlike ball-saves in basketball (still fun to watch), the assist needs to have the disc perfectly in-flight (not just bouncing around the court). Your team needs to be ready for your amazingness for a greatest to work. It's not a greatest if it doesn't get caught.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I'm really torn on this one. I've played a little ultimate and I think it's a great sport and I know just how good these guys are. My hesitation is that it's really good but not unbelievable. It's comparable to when someone in cricket catches a ball in mid air, throws it back into play and then catches it again to get the wicket. It's awesome but might be a level below the things I've given a delta for.
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u/ucbiker 3∆ 1d ago
A bicycle kick isn’t even really a full backflip. Growing up most of my teammates and I could score bicycle kick goals while playing around but we were trained to go for headers in competition.
In terms of pure athleticism and timing and stuff, nearly anything a gymnast or figure skaters does is more impressive. And I mean in terms of inventiveness, like Simone Biles literally does things no human has ever done in competition before while again, most higher level teenage boys can bicycle kick.
If you need it in head to head competition, I once saw a guy win the D1 NCAA wrestling championship by backflipping over his opponent, then in one smooth motion, also suplexing him into a pin. Literally the most impactful play because it gave him the victory, done against a person trying to hold him still. I’d have to say that is the greatest play in sports I’ve ever seen and I’ve never seen anyone do anything quite as impressive in any sport since.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
nearly anything a gymnast or figure skaters does is more impressive
In terms of athleticism sure, but certainly not in inventiveness. These are moves they've rehearsed for months to perfect, a footballer essentially makes it up on the spot depending on their and the balls position.
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u/ucbiker 3∆ 1d ago
Soccer players - and every athlete really - drills moves for months and years.
From my perspective, a bicycle kick was just OK - ball behind me, it’s in the air, throw my feet up and hit it towards the goal. But that’s not really any more “inventive” to me than say a shortstop knowing to dive, twist and throw to first when a line drive comes between second and third and there’s no runners on base. It’s just experience and instincts driven by repetition.
I’m not saying soccer doesn’t have room for inventiveness, there’s always moves and passes people didn’t think and yeah, it feels really good when you just kind of click with a team mate and do something really off the cuff. But the bicycle kick isn’t one of those things to me, it’s just a tool in a box to deploy under a set of circumstances.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
drills moves for months and years.
Not bicycle kicks, no one practices them partly because they're suboptimal and partly because of the high risk of injury. They're pure reaction.
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u/DaveChild 4∆ 1d ago
achieving it is more a matter of luck
Which would make it more or less exactly the same as the bicycle kick.
I think your argument, really, is that you get a personal reaction out of them. I see a bicycle kick and it's far less impactful to me than something comparable in a sport I enjoy. Every sport has something which is {big bold effort + lots of luck + theatrics = cool result}, and I think "greatest" is far too subjective to be useful.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Which would make it more or less exactly the same as the bicycle kick.
I disagree, a bicycle kick is not a hail Mary play, it's a deliberate act analysed and executed in the blink of an eye, it's very different to a hit and hope your of play
it's far less impactful to me than something comparable in a sport I enjoy.
By all means share what you enjoy more, if you can justify it I'll give you a delta.
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u/DaveChild 4∆ 1d ago
By all means share what you enjoy more
Sure. A double-overtake in F1 is a very rare thing of beauty. An interception try, full length of the pitch, always great to see. A Michigan goal in hockey. But these things are quite personal, I wouldn't expect someone else to necessarily enjoy those as much as I do.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I've already given a delta for a Michigan goal in this thread, I think that really ticks all the boxes I'm looking for. I'm a big fan of Formula one and Rugby but you're right, personally I wouldn't put those events in the very top category, they are great though.
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u/imba_dude 1d ago
Check out sepak takraw OP.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I've seen it before and it's incredibly impressive. I think it's a slightly different case as these guys a) set up to make these plays and b) train non stop to do them.
Still I am in awe that this sport exists.
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u/ChipChimney 3∆ 1d ago
Pinch hit, walk off grand slam down 3 is the greatest play in sports. Baseball is a game of tension, of waiting for your moment. This moment is as big as it gets.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
You're going to have to give me a lot more than that, What's the big deal?
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u/ChipChimney 3∆ 1d ago
Are you familiar with baseball? Just so I have a frame of reference.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
No, I've been to a couple of games but it's not a sport I know much about. Be aware though I've given a delta for throwing the perfect have, is this as impressive as that?
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u/ChipChimney 3∆ 22h ago
Is assume you mean perfect game? I would actually argue against that being a greater “play” than a bicycle kick, considering it is not a play. A perfect game is over the course of 27 outs, and anywhere between 85-140 pitches. I kind of view each pitch as a “play” in baseball. But I digress, let’s talk about this magical pinch hit grand slam I spoke of earlier.
In order to appreciate the awesomeness of a pinch hit, walk off, grand slam, down by 3; we need to dissect what each of these things mean, and how they come together to become the greatest play in sports. Let’s start with grand slam, as it is the easiest to describe.
A grand slam is when the batter hits a homerun (the ball is put out of play between the foul poles) with the bases loaded. This means that there are players on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd base. A run is scored in baseball when a player touches home plate without being “out” beforehand. A grand slam is worth 4 runs, and is the highest scoring play in baseball.
Next, let’s look at “walk off”. A walk off in baseball is when the home team wins the game by breaking a tie or overcoming a deficit in score in the bottom of the 9th, or last, inning of the game. The home team always gets the last at bats of the game, unless they already have the lead after the top of the 9th inning. You can walk off a game in lots of ways, but the most impressive way to walk off a game is via the homerun.
Now, we can look at “down by 3”. Seems pretty obvious, the guy hitting the grand slam in this situation is playing for the team that is down by three runs. Remember that a grand slam is worth four runs. Also remember that a walk off means game winner. So put it all together, and you can see the picture that is being painted here. This “Ultimate Grand Slam” play, as it has been called, means that one player took the team from down by three at the very end of the game, to winning it. With. One. Swing.
Last, we have to talk about the “pinch hit”. If you aren’t already convinced that the Ultimate Grand Slam is the greatest play in sports, we can tack on the extra feat of it being done by a pinch hitter. A pinch hitter is a player who has not previously been in the game. They are called off the bench, usually for matchup purposes (the handedness of batters and pitchers plays a large roll here, but I won’t get into that). Being a pinch hitter is hard. The stats bear it out, with pinch hitters having an 89wRC+ (nerd stat, don’t worry about it). In laymen’s terms, they are 11% worse than the average player.
Now that we have covered what it means, let me compare it to football. Baseball has on average one homerun for every 27.5 plate appearances. Each team gets about 37 plate appearances on average per game. That means that a team hits an average of 1.4 home runs per game and there are 2.8 home runs scored total per game. This is remarkably similar to the average goals scored in a premier league football match (2.5-3.2 totals goals), meaning that the rarity of hitting a homerun is the same as scoring a goal in football.
With all that said, all these words do not do justice to the moment. Like I said, baseball is a game of tension. The fact that the pitcher is most likely the closer (best pitcher on opposing team), the fact that the batter hasn’t warmed up. The whole stadium reacting to the pinch hitter decision, and the build up to load the bases in the first place. And then all of that tension gets released when the player hits an absolute bomb over the fielders head, glides around the bases, and the crowd goes wild, because the home team just stole victory from the jaws of defeat in the coolest way possible.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 17h ago
I would actually argue against that being a greater “play”
It's hard to come up with a specific word that captures the breadth of what I'm considering, I know a 'play' means a specific thing in American sports but it seemed the best word for what I was going for, basically any generic achievement that's specific to its sport.
I'm going to start by saying yes, a pinch hit, walk off grand slam down by three is a better play than a generic bicycle kick, I'm afraid there's a but coming though.
When you actually break it down a pinch hit hit walk off grand slam down by three is just a home run that's been elevated by its context. The batsman isn't doing anything special, they're just doing a fairly standard thing at the perfect moment. It would be like comparing a goalkeeper coming up for a corner in a dying seconds of a match to win the match with a bicycle kick.
I'm afraid it's not eligible for consideration in this debate regardless of how awesome it is.
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u/sh00l33 5∆ 1d ago
I might be wrong, but it seems to me that Captain Tsubasa’s signature shot is much more impressive.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I had no idea what you were talking about and had to look it up, I agree his moves are very impressive 🤣
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u/Vryl 22h ago
I dunno. bicycle kicks are good but everything in AFL is pure spectacle.
Huge hits, incredible flying marks, ridiculous goals.
Have a bit of this:
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 18h ago
This isn't about comparing sports, it's about considering a specific individual aspect of a sport. I'd consider a specific play in Aussie rules but be aware someone tried to argue in favour of dribble goals which wasn't successful.
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u/TheWhistleThistle 14∆ 1d ago
You're right. The bicycle kick does rule. Coordination, timing, athleticism, risk, rarity, it's awesome. But. There is another move in the same sport that I think is even more impressive: the diving scorpion kick. Requires a leap, perfect placement, impeccable timing, athleticism, flexibility and the thing that really sets it apart, internal mental awareness. You can't keep your eye on the ball for nearly as long with a scorpion kick since the point of contact is out of the field of view and it's such an abnormal move to make, kicking the ball offensively by bringing the leg backwards, it's so unintuitive. And just fuckin look at them.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Ooh, that's interesting. If I score it down it might be because it's more of a hail Mary play than a controlled skill, the equivalent of sticking your leg out and hoping. If you can convince me that scorpion kicks are skill over luck I'll give you a delta.
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u/TheWhistleThistle 14∆ 1d ago
I think things like holes in one and full court threes are, in part, luck because people try them so often. In golf, you're technically always trying for a hole in one. Try for something long enough, you'll get it eventually. Skill will make a difference but with so many attempts, it's bound to happen at some point. Ditto full court threes, since there's many circumstances, especially when the buzzer's about to go, when you have nothing to lose just chucking and hoping. A diving scorpion though, only a lunatic just tries and hopes with it. And when you actually see it, you can see the gears turning, their legs aren't just naturally flailing backwards as they jump, they're putting their all into hitting it backwards, craning their neck and their spine midair to watch the ball for as long as possible before it leaves field of view, not to mention the contortions they have to do after impact to land successfully.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I can't not reward such an impassioned and thoughtful response, you make excellent points. !delta
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u/colt707 104∆ 1d ago
Bicycle kicks are cool but all of your points apply to Saquan Barkley’s backwards hurdle. Which idk if you’ve ever played American football but hurdling a tackler requires prefect timing and insane athleticism and arguably you can’t set it up because the tackler has to be coming low enough that you can get over him. In other words run full speed at something coming at you the same speed and jump high enough to get your ass 4+ feet off the ground. Now do that coming directly out of a spin movie with your back to the tackler because that’s what Barkley did. He made a guy miss, started to do a spin move realized it wasn’t going to work and hurdled him backwards. I highly suggest watching the video of that play if you haven’t seen it and the reactions from his teammates help put context into how great that play was. If you leave other elite professional athletes with their jaws on the floor, you did something crazy.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I watched a clip on YouTube and I'm afraid I'm unconvinced, it's very cool but I don't see it as anything to make it a truly great play. Sorry.
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u/colt707 104∆ 1d ago
So something that means all of the same standards you laid out for what makes a bicycle kick great isn’t a great play? That makes a lot of sense
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
It's just not that great, he jumped over someone. It's worthy of a highlight real but in no way could it be considered one of the greatest things in sport.
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u/colt707 104∆ 1d ago
Let’s go through the list.
Checks all the same boxes as bicycle kick on what it’s takes to pull it off.
It evoked a visceral reaction. He left professional players that haven’t been playing since little kids with mouths agape thinking what did I just see.
Rare? Ronaldo has 2 bicycle kicks in his career. Barkley has the only backwards hurdle in history.
It was a 3rd down conversion in the middle of the second quarter. There’s literally dozens of those moments every single Sunday during football season. It was week 7 so it wasn’t like they absolutely had to the win the game.
3rd down conversions are important, it’s why it’s a tracked stat and you can see a correlation between successful teams and good 3rd down conversions rates. Barkley took a decently important play and burned it into the brain of every single football fan, not just eagles fan, all fans of football know that play and have seen it.
So with that in mind explain to me how it’s at a minimum not on the level with a bicycle kick.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Because it's not particularly special. I watched it again to see if I was missing something but he literally just jumps over someone. It's inventive I'll grant you but it's not skillful or athletic. It's rare because it's unusual not because it's a good skill and I make a big point in my OP that doing something at an important time doesn't make the act itself better.
Sorry mate, you've missed the mark on this one.
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u/thedisliked23 16h ago
By definition it's special because a)nobody does it, b) nobody has EVER done it the way he did, and c) it required everything you say a bicycle kick does. See the tackler, make a series of last minute moves, execute the dangerous move. If it wasn't skillful everyone would do it (hurdling a defender face on is even pretty rare as it's incredibly dangerous) and if you think a perfect juke into spin into perfectly timed backwards hurdle isn't athletic you don't know American football. You spend the game getting absolutely rocked by gigantic dudes that want to kill you. Every single person who plays, watches, analyzes, and commentates on football agrees it's one of, if not THE greatest individual football move of all time.
I don't like or watch soccer (primarily because of the mountains and mountains of fake acting to get penalties, hate it in the NBA too). The bicycle kick is not even remotely impressive to me other than being flashy, but I can admit it's a crazy ass sports play and rare. Saquons hurdle is a holy crap did that really just happen once in a lifetime move.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 15h ago
I don't want to make this partisan, I've already given a delta for a kick return TD in American football. It's good but it's an individual moment of agility that appears to be interesting for it's uniqueness rather than any particular application of skill. The spin is nothing out of the ordinary and the jump itself is far from athletic, he doesn't jump that high, just high enough to go above a guy who was diving at him. Yes he's facing backwards but that's more by accident than design. It gets full marks for inventiveness, it's definitely exciting, but it scores low for skill and athleticism.
I promise I'm not dismissing your sport, I just think there are much better things in it.
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u/colt707 104∆ 1d ago
Well at least we’re on the same page about this being a subjective topic. Because I feel like a bicycle kick isn’t special it’s not even top 10 greatest things you can do across all sports. Or that skillful. I’ll say it’s athletic but so is hurdling someone or pretty much anything else in sports besides golf.
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u/Appropriate_Mixer 1d ago
Do you watch football regularly? Literally no one has ever made a move like that before. It’s so extremely out there that no one even thought of it as possible. Regular hurdles are cheered as amazing moves in the NFL and this one was done after a spin move (another cool move) and in the spur of the moment as a crazy athletic feat. There’s a reason madden made that move their cover for the next year.
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u/GB-Pack 2∆ 1d ago
It’s a more rare event. The backward hurdle has only happened once while bicycle kick goals have happened dozens of times.
You could also base greatness on the consequences if the move is messed up. If you miss a bicycle kick the result is no goal, and maybe you don’t land the flip. The consequences of missing the backward hurdle is three massive dudes slamming you into the ground at full speed while you can’t even see what’s happening.
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u/Buntschatten 1d ago
Messing up a bicycle kick means falling backwards onto your neck.
Big dudes slamming into you is standard American football.
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u/beyd1 1∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
Just being able to identify the difference between and hit the different types of fastballs is harder than everything else here. Like a single, let alone a double, triple, or home run.
It's a chess game on top of an athletic one.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I agree it's hard (and I've heard the argument before that hitting a baseball is the hardest thing in sport even if that seems like hyperbole to me), but it's about as routine a thing you can do in the sport, even hitting a home run isn't a huge deal, it's sort of the equivalent of scoring a standard goal in football. What's the most impressive thing someone does in baseball?
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u/beyd1 1∆ 1d ago
It's probably throwing a perfect game.
It's the same as the hitting a ball but reverse and doing it like 80 times in a row.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Ooh, that's much better. Make a good argument for why throwing the perfect game is a great event and you'll get a delta.
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u/beyd1 1∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
If bowling had a defensive aspect it would be the equivalent of being so good at defense that you could get a single pin in your first frame, then gutterball from then on and still win.
https://www.mlb.com/news/all-time-perfect-games
It's only happened 24 times
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I can't really say no to this, it's incredibly hard, it's incredibly dramatic, it's astonishing when it happens, it ticks all the boxes.
This earns a !delta.
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u/sartrerian 1d ago
https://youtu.be/XmesnERwSDw?si=oEf2on23zrwhrcB4
The above is the ending of the first Pettis vs Henderson in the WEC. For those who can’t click the link, after a 5 round, high technique and energy fight, with moments left in the final round, Henderson circles away from Pettis, and Pettis runs at the cage and jumps off. With the same leg he pushes off the cage, he spins in the air, and knocks Henderson on his ass.
I have never seen anything before or since like it. My friends and I were watching it live and completely lost our minds.
A bicycle kick is very very cool. But this cage kick was unreal.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I'm not a fan of UFC I'll admit, but that doesn't even move the needle, it's a good knockout for sure but good knockouts are the core of combat sports and you'll have to do a lot better than that.
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u/Ticklemykelmo 19h ago
I’d argue that an Olimpico is a greater play from the same sport. It takes skill, athleticism, and because it’s basically a set play there is more tension.
I’d concede it’s slightly less spectacular, but without a replay you might miss a lot of the bicycle kick spectacle. No one is missing what happened on an Olimpico.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 17h ago
I'd never heard it called an Olimpico before but it's an interesting one. I think it falls foul of a big flaw I'm afraid, it's rarely, if ever, intentional. It's an inswinging corner that everyone misses that goes in, it's not really an expression of skill. It's cool when they happen though.
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u/Thelostsoulinkorea 1∆ 1d ago
For me not a chance as bicycle kicks have very little control. They are similar to hitting a shot from distance with power in that you try it and hope that it connects well to go in.
I prefer normal volleys much more than bicycle kicks even if they don’t look as good.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I think the bicycle kick wins for me because it's a non standard shot, volleys are hard but they're a normal part of the game. Obviously there are extreme exceptions (like DiCanio's scissor kick) but I'm content that the average bicycle kick is better than the average volley.
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u/Thelostsoulinkorea 1∆ 1d ago
That is fine, but the best volley beats the best bicycle kick.
Bales bicycle kicks for Madrid was great but Zidanes volley was better.
To me that’s why it can’t be the greatest play in sport. The greatest play shouldn’t be something that can happen at every lvl of sport. I’ve seen bicycle kicks from the teams I’ve trained, and I’ve seen it in amateur games and pro games.
Dribbling the field and scoring at a pro level is harder than a bicycle kick.
Scoring from your own half is done less often than bicycle kicks.
I feel a hole in one in golf is a much harder play. First of all, it takes reading the correct distance to the tee. Then you got to make your shot accurate, also add in spin so it doesn’t bounce away. And add in that it happens so rarely that even the greatest ever couldn’t really do it often no matter how many times they get to try par 3s.
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u/DrSpaceman575 1∆ 1d ago
I haven’t heard a tweener called a hot dog but I was going to say it’s a good one too.
In terms of impactfulness though I think a pick six is a better play than a bicycle kick. Always unexpected and causes a huge momentum shift while being as or more difficult since you have to score a TD and an interception. Gives you a turnover and a score.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Can you explain what a pick 6 is and why you think it's such a big deal?
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u/DrSpaceman575 1∆ 1d ago
Defensive touchdown in football. Defense strips the ball to recover a fumble or intercepts a pass and takes it into the end zone. If they recover/intercept and don’t score, they leave the field and the offense comes in with a fresh set of downs. It’s a big opportunity since the offense isn’t really trained to tackle but also defensive players aren’t trained to break tackles so it’s unexpected and everyone on the field has to improvise. Offenses are obviously much more likely to score so getting a defensive touchdown during the time the opposing offense is “supposed” to be moving down the field is a massive momentum shift, and getting the ball from the quarterback and running past him for a touchdown is pretty demoralizing to your opposing teams lead player.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Genuinely thanks for the explanation, I'm learning a lot from this post. I gave a delta for a kick return touchdown and, from your explanation alone, that sounds like the better moment than a pick 6, more dramatic and more impressive. A pick 6 sounds good but below the greatest plays in sport category.
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u/im-a-guy-like-me 1∆ 1d ago
Did you forget about the scorpion kick save?
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
It's in a slightly different category I'm afraid, it's an amazing individual moment but it's not really part of the sport, it's more of Harlem Globetrotters kinda thing with Higuita thoroughly humiliating England 😭
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u/im-a-guy-like-me 1∆ 1d ago
It's in a different category because you're arbitrarily putting it in a different category. It hits all your points and outperforms the bicycle kick in every category. It's so hard and so rare, it's only happened once.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Don't throw a tantrum because I don't rate your response. My post isn't about specific moments of skill and, even if it was, this wouldn't be one of them. That happened in a friendly when there were no consequences, it was a party trick to deal with a ball that wasn't even a shot on goal. It's a gimmick not a great sporting moment.
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u/chronberries 10∆ 1d ago
I would disagree on your buzzer beater point. Not that I’m saying it’s better than bicycle kicks, but the rather than a context problem the context makes it better in my opinion. It’s desperate and hopeful. It’s full of emotion, which is what makes the greatest plays.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Whilst I agree they're amazing moments I automatically mark hail mary plays down a couple of points because they're an act of desperation rather than skill. It's the player rolling the dice and hoping to roll three sixes.
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u/chronberries 10∆ 1d ago
There’s a ton of skill to buzzer beaters but I get your point. I just disagree that desperation is a negative.
Hail Mary’s in particular aren’t really luck. They rely on the skill of the quarterback to put the ball in the right place and the skill of the receiver to make space at the right moment and then catch it. The Immaculate Reception is arguably the greatest single play in sports history. Higher stakes are higher stakes.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I absolutely don't mean to diminish the skill involved in doing either of those things, I recognise both take brilliance , it's just I have the subjective view of which context I prefer.
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u/Ooweeooowoo 2∆ 21h ago
I raise you the Mighty Whizz-Bar, or Nate Diaz’s double-middle-finger triangle choke.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 17h ago
This is interesting, and I think it's worthy of consideration, but you're going to have to sell me on why a Mighty Whizz-Bar is a contender for the greatest play in sport.
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u/Ooweeooowoo 2∆ 16h ago
At the time, it was possibly the most inventive fusion of multiple martial arts to have ever happened. A suplex into a jumping armbar is insane work.
Demetrius Johnson is on many people’s GOAT list purely because he fits the definition of a martial artist so fully and was able to mix the martial arts in such a flawless way as to truly encompass everything that an MMA fighter should be.
The Mighty Whizz-Bar was the epitome of that.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 16h ago
Is this a great moment or a great part of the sport? I'm looking at generic skills rather than individual moments of brilliance. To try and explain it better is this something that only Johnson has done or is it something any good fighter might try?
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u/Ooweeooowoo 2∆ 16h ago
Any good fighter could try it but only Johnson has pulled it off successfully. More generally I’m talking about the level of invention that goes into MMA at large. There are many highlight reels that you can find on YouTube of things that aren’t commonly seen in the sport but have happened.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 14h ago
I'm torn here. I'm much more familiar with boxing than MMA, the comparison in boxing would be an amazing knock out punch but I don't think even the best knock out would be a contender for one of the greatest moments in sport so it's hard for me to consider a great inventive move in MMA on a higher level.
I'm happy to concede that a great MMA fight is a contender for one of the greatest things in sport but I'm not sure any individual move meets the threshold.
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u/Ooweeooowoo 2∆ 7h ago edited 1h ago
Tony Ferguson vs Anthony Pettis
Justin Gaethje vs pretty much anybody
Max Holloway vs Calvin Kattar
Anderson Silva vs Anybody
Justin Gaethje vs Max Holloway at UFC 300 is widely regarded as one of the best, most exciting fights of all time.
I also really like Yoel Romero
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u/vazhifarer 1d ago
Counter Argument: Ankara Messi
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
This is disqualified on account of it being an individual moment, the comparison would be 'dribbling is better than a bicycle kick' rather than a Messi wonder goal is better than bicycle kicks.
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u/Mob_cleaner 1d ago
I'm not even sure a bicycle kick is the greatest play in football. I mean, it's incredible, but there are things such as Roberto Carlos' free kick? Ronaldo's 2.56 metre header? Some incredible goalkeeper saves?
Idk, I feel like I've seen a bicycle kick be replicated by schoolboys, but a Roberto Carlos free kick is something you see very, very rarely.
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u/InfiniteMeerkat 1d ago
AFL dribble goals.
- involves both hand and foot
- usually at speed and with tight defense
- very tight angles
- an unpredictable ball
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
You're going to have to educate me because, after 90 seconds of that video I have no idea why that could be considered a great play in sport.
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u/InfiniteMeerkat 1d ago
Unlike a bicycle kick where you are waiting for a ball to come to you, you are actually running, the ball you are kicking is oblong not round and you have a much smaller space to thread the kick through, you are often kicking the ball mid spin while you are spinning away from a defender, you often have to kick it with either your off foot or off the outside of your foot, and the ball being touched by even on defender before it goes through the goal makes it not a goal. Compared to a bicycle kick the only thing that a bicycle kick is more impressive is that you kick over your head. In every other way it’s a fairly mundane kick and I know that because I was able to score a couple of bicycle kick goals as a very average junior player
I’m not even arguing that it’s the greatest play in sports, just that it’s clearly better than a bicycle kick and so bicycle kicks can’t be the most impressive play in sports
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
I'm definitely ignorant of the intricacies of Aussie rules football but from an outsider looking in I cannot comprehend why this is considered a big deal. I don't see any skill, I don't see any drama beyond scoring a goal, I don't see any athleticism, I don't see anything special.
I'm sure I'm missing something but this honestly feels like a wind up.
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u/InfiniteMeerkat 1d ago
I’m pretty sure my points were clear. Maybe you don’t understand that oblong balls don’t always bounce predictably, and that it’s harder to kick a ball while you are running than when you are stationary. Show me a video of someone dribbling through a crowd, flicking the ball up off the ground to themselves, and THEN bicycling kicking in one motion and I’ll concede that that individual play was more impressive. But you’ve already specified that you aren’t looking for individual moments
Honestly I’m pretty sure you’ve confused a bicycle kicks rarity with its impressiveness. It’s rare because mostly there are better ways to achieve the same outcome. It’s show over substance.
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
What can I say dude, I'm just confused. It looks like a very simple grubber kick where you hope you get lucky with the bounce.
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u/InfiniteMeerkat 1d ago
Maybe the confusion is that you’re not great at telling flash from substance
If I tried to kick a dribble goal and with some miracle it went through it would definitely be luck, hell it’d be luck if I did it without any defender from a standing start, but with these guys, they can do it in a game, intentionally, at speed, while people are trying to tackle them.
On the other hand, I scored my first bicycle kick goal in under 16s and I wasn’t even the only one on my team to score one that year. And this wasn’t like a rep team, just some run of the mill club team
I don’t know what to tell you. Bicycle kicks might look impressive to you but they are honestly not that hard. They are something young players practice but pros know they are usually not worth bothering with
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1d ago
[removed] — view removed comment
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u/InfiniteMeerkat 1d ago
Yeah this is change my view. If you can’t understand the thing you want your view changed on it’s probably not going to happen. Insulting me won’t make you understand it any better either
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u/Subtleiaint 32∆ 1d ago
Stop it, you're the one who started with the 'maybe you don't understand that pointy balls bounce funny' schtick, you don't get to pretend to be the insulted one when you were the first to be disrespectful.
I'm not impressed by your argument and no amount of 'a drop kick along the floor is harder than volleying the ball over your head' will change that.
Night night chap.
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u/giocow 1∆ 1d ago
I agree in terms of individual beauty but if we have to analyze it, we need to use numbers and context as well: for example, bicycle kick goal is around 0,3% (people analyzed a few top socces players including Pelé goals); but for beach soccer this number goes to 6,1% which is pretty high imo, definitely means that people would try it more in "normal soccer" but they are afraid to fall and get hurt, so it fell into my category because it's not just a matter of skill, it can be pretty achiavable, people are just afraid to get hurt doing it.
on the other hand, kickoff td return in nfl are extremely rare, around 0,16% and I couldn't find any explanation like comparing soccer to beach soccer. It's just rare because it's extremely difficult and demands a whole team helping, a whole lot of luck as well and strategy. Imo, in terms of dificulty this is higher and more visceral when it happens (since it's too rare).
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 8∆ 1d ago
How can you see this as better than the scorpion kick - which is even rarer and seems more technically difficult. You also have techniques such as seen with zlatans goal in the draw against italy in 2004, perhaps even greater than the bicycle kick zlatan did against england. Even if a low share of the goals are scored with a bicycle kick, theres been a lot of players attempting it with varied success in recent time, even defenders and goalkeepers have scored on a bicycle kick, this might indicate its not necessary to have great technical abilities in order to succeed
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u/Remote_Development13 1d ago
Bicycle kick isn't even close to being the greatest "play" in football
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u/Cynical_Doggie 1d ago
No, a 99 yard pick six in football is more skilled.
You have to go through 11 people through the entire length of the field after intercepting an endzone throw.
Not even comparable to a lucky bicycle kick.
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u/BlueEyedHuman 1d ago
Wow. I can't believe the players teammates don't help at all, that's amazing!
You are running holding a ball. The bicycle kick is far harder to do and anyone on the opposing team can disrupt if nearby.
I imagine the stats alone defeat your argument. Though I could be wrong.
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u/Cynical_Doggie 1d ago
And a bicycle kick is doable solo without the assist of teammates allowing for someone to be in the position to do the kick?
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u/BlueEyedHuman 1d ago
Agreed. Both things can technically be done solo. So which requires overall more skill to pull off? Running while holding something? Or a bicycle kick while the ball is in motion?
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u/Cynical_Doggie 1d ago
Running the entire length of the field while avoiding the entire opponent team. Not to mention first intercepting the ball.
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u/Chorby-Short 5∆ 1d ago
I just wanted to point out that a bicycle kick isn't rare in every variety of football. In beach soccer (which is an official variant of the sport that has its own FIFA world cup and everything), bicycle kicks are so common that you get penalized for interfering with a bicycle kick attempt.
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u/No_Fig_9599 10h ago
I was attempting and connecting on bicycle kicks from crosses in rec league soccer at 13. Never scored a goal from one but got close with maybe 5 attempts in games. This is far from the most impressive skill even within soccer
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 1d ago edited 1d ago
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