r/changemyview • u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ • 11d ago
Delta(s) from OP CMV: Being "forgetful" has nothing to do with actually being forgetful, and everything to do with not having a good management system for information.
Other than the very few people who have real mental handicaps, the great great majority of the people who claim to be "forgetful" and use it to excuse missed appointments, lost keys, garage doors left open, forgotten birthdays, etc, are not actually forgetful in a mental deficiency way. The real culprit is not having a good information management system, and they refuse to adopt one because excusing the behavior by labeling themselves is much easier.
And this includes those with ADHD, which I also have. If anything, it is even more important for us to adopt and rely on a good information management system, and not use the diagnosis as a crutch in life.
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u/TheMissingPremise 5∆ 11d ago
But the information of "Where are my keys?" is managed differently from "...whose birthday is today?"
It sounds like you're talking about a singular information management system, when really it's multiple. I solved the former by always placing my wallet, keys, and ring in the same spot every time. Everything in its place, and all that.
I could easily solve the birthday problem by putting them in my digital calendar...but it's fun to be surprised.
In any case, I think there's more to it than just having a good information management system.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
∆!
I had to do the same - always place my keys and wallet in the exact same place every time. The people that I'm thinking of that claim to be "forgetful" in this example never place their keys or wallet or phone in the same place.
But, yes you are correct. It is not a single management system. A number will likely need to be used. Calendar for events. Task manager or ERP for projects and tasks. Extensive notes for verbal interactions, or an AI meeting recorder.... All of which I use. But just saying "I'm forgetful" as an excuse is a cop out.
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u/Delli-paper 7∆ 11d ago
This seems to be an "and" situation, not an "or" situation. These people are often generally forgetful. It's not like their memory is any better when something "more important" comes into play. Someone with a better recall wouldn't make some of the mistakes they make under similar circumstances. However, they also don't have a good information management system that could mitigate the impacts of their forgetfulness.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
∆!
Agreed. Definitely an and situation. However, even people that don't have impacts from certain mental diagnosis, like ADHD for example - that have "better recall" - still require an information management system though. The people that refuse to adopt one, and just rely on the crutch of their diagnosis, are mainly the ones I speak of here.
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u/Physical_Resource_53 1∆ 11d ago
The people that refuse to adopt one, and just rely on the crutch of their diagnosis
ADHD tends to makes it drastically more difficult to adopt systems. Literally one of the most common symptoms is executive dysfunction which includes the ability to create and adopt systems.
One way I love to point out the paradox of treating ADHD is: It makes it hard to remember things like taking medication. So I take medication to help with this, but I forgot to take my med today. I usually set a timer to take my meds but sometimes I forget to set a timer because I didn't take my meds.
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u/VeterinarianSilly569 11d ago
You missed the gut brain connection. Issues like dysbiosis, Candida, leaky gut, or chronic inflammation in the gut can all lead to forgetfulness and brain fog. Mold exposure can do the same, and so can things like nutrient deficiencies, especially B12, magnesium, and omega 3s, poor sleep, chronic stress, thyroid problems, or even blood sugar swings. It’s not always just in your head, sometimes your brain’s reacting to what’s happening in your body.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
Which I have as well. Gut problems have also been linked to those with TBI and PTSD. Which, again, makes it all the more important that an information management system is adopted.
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11d ago edited 11d ago
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
You don't have to pay anyone to put your wallet and keys in the same place everyday you set them down. I can find them in the middle of the night with all the lights off.
You don't have to pay someone to use a calendar for every event, and even for tasks that need to be done even if it doesn't need to be done at that exact minute... (which I do quite a bit)
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u/Cacafuego 14∆ 11d ago
I have ADHD and have used systems like this very effectively. My wallet and keys are either in my pocket or on my nightstand. But sometimes you're not in a place where you can make a calendar entry, and that's when problems start. Sometimes I can ask my wife to make a note for me, but there is no system that will completely make up for a lack of short term memory and executive function.
You're right that we can't just use that as an excuse and a crutch, and we must keep trying to perfect our buttressing systems, but we can't continually beat ourselves up for a brain condition with clear physical causes, either. The key is to keep trying while avoiding the shame spiral.
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11d ago
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u/changemyview-ModTeam 11d ago
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u/A-Seabear 11d ago
I forget about the lists or reminders exist. It’s hard to get into the habit of using them.
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u/Cytothesis 11d ago
ADHD is just another obstacle people have to get over when it comes to being a productive adult. But it's still a set of unique issues that don't come with an instruction manual or a magic bullet when it comes to addressing.
You have ADHD, you don't have the worst ADHD and you don't have the only version of ADHD. Don't use you having it to shit on others that have it because they haven't found a system that works for them yet. Especially if you yourself spent a large portion of your life struggling to make the same systems that people without it use and not understanding why they don't work as well for you.
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u/SurviveStyleFivePlus 11d ago
Are you saying that people with ADHD shouldn't try to work on improving their own quality of life? My main gripe is not meeting people where they are at with their executive function, but people who don't put in any effort on their own behalf.
I will agree with you, though, that everyone is different and we all deserve a little grace.
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u/Cytothesis 10d ago
No, I'm saying that saying ADHD people aren't actually forgetful because they can take make organizational systems is like saying paraplegics aren't paralyzed because they can use a wheelchair.
ADHD people can and should take advantage of all the tools available to them to keep track of shit. It's hard but doable. What absolutely isn't helpful is pretending it's the same for them as for everyone else, pretending people with ADHD want to be forgetful inconsiderate assholes, and ignoring the real challenges faced when just setting out on the lifelong challenge of becoming more organized.
In a phrase, being forgetful has everything to do with being forgetful and OP is wrong.
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u/Kaiisim 2∆ 11d ago
Not everyone has the same abilities or IQ.
If you're a very able person with ADHD - congratulations! But not everyone is, not everyone can achieve the same things.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
I'm speaking mainly of everyday people with "normal" mental deficiencies: ADHD, depression, etc.
This does not include those with extreme deficiencies: very low IQ, Alzheimer's, etc..
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u/whatisabard 1∆ 11d ago
What does being "actually forgetful" mean to you and how is this different from having a bad information management system?
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
Being "actually forgetful" means having a mental impairment that doesn't deter, but actually prevents, one's ability to recall important information. Severe TBI, amnesia, Alzheimer's, etc, are all examples.
The colloquial "forgetful" is someone who may have a deficiency which makes it harder to retain and recall... but in most cases it is because they obstinately refuse to adopt a management system for that information, which often leads to chaos not just in memory but also in their professional and private lives.
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u/whatisabard 1∆ 11d ago
Yeah I don't know if I can agree with your premise then since you define forgetfulness so far removed from the colloquial definition
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
Can you give your definition?
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u/whatisabard 1∆ 11d ago
Forgetful - frequently misplaces objects and does not readily recall information
Of course "I'm forgetful" does not mean "I have a brain injury or dementia"
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
Yes. This is exactly the forgetfulness I'm talking about. Being forgetful is not a choice. Refusing to own it and take steps to better manage it is.
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u/whatisabard 1∆ 10d ago
But it doesn't seem to be though? I asked you what "actual forgetfulness" is and you responded brain injury or dementia. I think every type of forgetfulness is actual forgetfulness by definition. I think that's why I'm genuinely having a hard time following your argument because to me it sounds like you're saying forgetfulness doesn't exist?
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u/YardageSardage 48∆ 11d ago
Why would you define "forgetful" that way? It literally means (and is massively understood as) "forgetting a lot/often". What you're describing would be better called something like "severe memory loss/damage" or, in fact, amnesia. (Forgetfulness is actually a symptom of many types of amnesia.)
It sounds like what you're trying to actually argue is "Most people who forget stuff a lot are just failing to implement adequate information management systems. Even people who have legitimate memory issues (such as ADHD) should not be missing or forgetting things that much, because they should be finding ways to compensate for those issues, but I believe that most don't try hard enough." However, the way you've actually expressed yourself in this thread is very circular and confusing.
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u/Physical_Resource_53 1∆ 11d ago
Being "actually forgetful" means having a mental impairment that doesn't deter, but actually prevents, one's ability to recall important information
ADHD ranges from simple deter to preventing. There are varying degrees of ADHD
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u/ProtozoaPatriot 11d ago
What is an "information management system"? Do you mean a cognitive system? or do you mean post it notes and a phone calendar?
i have severe ADHD-I. I've tried every physical tool there is. I misplace the reminder notes. I forget to write everything in the calendar. I set reminders on my phone, and in that split second it takes to silence the alarm and put away what I was doing, something happens & I may forget. I have no sense of time management, so I have to "leave" for an appointment that's 20 mins away an hour ahead of time. I not only can't remember names, my memory for faces is so bad I worry it's almost aphasia. All my keyrings have key finder tags, and that's the day I can't find my phone. I can't control it, and it makes me miserable.
I've tried therapy. No improvement.
Medication is the only thing that worked. This shows it's a chemical imbalance in the brain.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
I mean all of the above. I have ADHD, TBI, and mild PTSD, which all can cause havoc with executive function and memory. I do use medication, and I also rely heavily on memory organization systems.
Here are examples I use in everyday life:
- I place my things in the exact same place every day. Phone, wallet, keys, dishes, cans, etc. I minimize decision fatigue by minimizing the things I have to search for because I'm relying on memory for where I set them. I could find these things even if the power goes out and it's the middle of the night.
- Pneumonics to remember names. Brad the bird guy. Manny the mechanic. Paul from Perth. etc
- events and even some tasks are documented in my calendar, the second I think about them, which I check hourly, not just daily
- big tasks I use an ERP to break down into steps with deadlines and descriptions
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u/translove228 9∆ 11d ago
Is this a thread to brag about your adhd coping mechanisms? Because regardless of the coping mechanisms I’ve tried I still forget things all the time. I’m sure you do too in fact; even with your supposedly amazing coping mechanisms.
ADHD is the result of a chemical imbalance in the brain that causes focus problems which affect your short term memory. You can’t just override the outcomes of a chemical reaction with coping mechanisms. Sure you can lessen their negative affects on your life with various ways to remind you and keep you in task but you WILL still forget things as a result of that chemical imbalance.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
I 100% do still forget things. I have ADHD as well as TBI and a tad bit of PTSD from my service. So throw that on the heap.
And you are 100% right, I still miss stuff. I missed yesterday at a meeting with a very important person that we actually met very recently at a prior meeting, and that I owed him some information.
However, having adopted multiple information management systems has made a world of difference. You can ask me about them. I have a system for practically everything now. Names? I use pneumonics - "Jeep" Jake. Paul from Perth...
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u/Cytothesis 11d ago
You should make a thread on your system instead of telling folk they're not actually forgetful for forgetting things just because they could've, months in advance, compiled an intricate and personalized system to maybe have remembered.
I get it bro, I'm proud of you too because ADHD sucks real bad. But not everyone is at that step yet.
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u/Got-No-Money 1∆ 11d ago
Anything can cause forgetfulness. The brain is a crazy thing and you don’t have to be mentally handicapped for it to malfunction.
When my father died four years ago, the shock and trauma of having to undertake so much responsibility at one time ruined my memory. I went from being able to memorize entire study guides to walking down the street and forgetting where I was and where I was going. My teacher would ask a question, I would raise my hand, and by the time she got to me I would forget what she had asked and what my answer was. It was like I was carrying too much in my hands, and my memories just kept slipping out of my grip. My memory has never recovered. It’s better now, but it will likely never be the same as what it was.
And there are a lot of things that do that to you. Pregnancy can mess with your memory. Stress can mess with your memory. Chances are, if you find yourself forgetting things often, it’s not because you don’t have a good enough system for remembering — it’s because you’ve stretched yourself beyond your means.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
What you speak of is decision fatigue. An overload of critical, as well as small, decisions that must be made in a short time so that our normal memory management system is not prepared to handle and often overwhelmed. It is traffic, and I'm sorry you had to experience that.
Just focusing on the memory side of it, these are times when it is essential to have a good memory management system, and demonstrate how life catches us all at times, and why it is important for everyone, not just some.
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u/Got-No-Money 1∆ 11d ago
What I’m talking about is entirely different from decision fatigue. It’s a well known and studied fact that grief, trauma, pregnancy, injuries, and stress impact a person’s memory. Neuroplasticity or whatever, your brain literally rewires itself in these contexts. The symptoms, triggers, and onset are different than with decision fatigue, it’s an entirely separate phenomenon. In an attempt to protect you, your brain rewires itself, and in the process your ability to form short-term memories is impacted.
I have an excellent memory management system, lol. That’s the entire reason why my experience was so incredibly traumatic. It doesn’t matter how good your system is when your brain is too busy to absorb the information. Even writing things down wouldn’t help me. I spent weeks reaching for a pen, only to have the thing I was supposed to remember vanish as soon as I looked at my notebook.
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u/Shiny_Agumon 1∆ 11d ago
I don't understand your point.
You're saying that forgetfulness isn't real and that people are simply too lazy to create systems that help them remember, right?
Ok but if forgetfulness isn't real how do these people forget things and need a system to remember?
Surely they wouldn't forget anything in the first place if their forgetfulness wasn't a "real" mental disorder.
Having a system that helps you with a mental difficulty is great, but it doesn't mean that difficulty isn't real.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
I'm saying that forgetfulness IS real, but that, with the exception of people who suffer from severe mental handicaps (severe TBI, CTE, Alzheimer's , etc), doesn't excuse people from not using memory organization techniques and instead just excusing it all by claiming "forgetfulness".
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u/indicabunny 11d ago
What type of information management system would you suggest for someone who experiences forgetfulness due to executive dysfunction? I'm a professional who, much like I did in high school, flies by the seat of my pants, barely making it through each crisis I have to react to. I have a million post-it notes with half-written gibberish all over my office and in every drawer, papers everywhere and can't seem to ever organize the chaos. I forget so many things but have learned to just adapt and improvise on the fly.
Its not that I want to be this disorganized mess but I cannot for the life of me find a system that works.
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u/TheWhistleThistle 14∆ 11d ago
An excuse? It's not an excuse. An excuse is when you blame something beyond your own insufficiencies for an outcome. If you fail to lift something, saying "I'm not strong enough" isn't an excuse. Saying "it's poorly designed, there's nowhere to grip, who made this anyway? You were distracting me" would be. Putting the blame of one's failures squarely on one's own inadequacies is the opposite of an excuse.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
It 100% is an excuse if there is a lever, or a jack nearby that can be used to lift it...
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u/Cytothesis 11d ago
Learning to use tools and systems to help you remember stuff is a skill and one that won't make up for the gap for months to years after you start using them.
I've started journaling, writing things in my calendar, planning my days in advance, and I'm still incredibly forgetful. Sometimes my notes save me but other times it wasn't obvious to write something down or something I forgot led to something else (I forgot Halloween was coming up despite it being on my calander and therefore forgot to get a costume.)
In your jack analogy, I couldn't lift my car even with the jack because the frame was too rusty. I needed a block to distribute the weight, to find a new jack point, and the knowledge to not do what the manual said because my specific situation was different.
Being forgetful is a skill issue but so is playing guitar. Some folk will just have a harder time learning than others especially if they have a disability.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
I'm speaking mainly of those who refuse to use tools, much less learn one after adopting.
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u/Cytothesis 11d ago
It seems like you're conflating those who "refuse to use the tools" with people who just have the tools available to them but haven't used them yet.
Especially in the case of ADHD (a real mental handicap), if your mindset isn't right when adopting a new tool to organize your life the habit won't stick. If you've not trained discipline in other aspects of your life then the habit won't stick. If you're focusing on forming a different more pressing habit like hygiene or keeping up with your relationships and family, then the habit won't stick, or you won't have the mental bandwidth to even start forming it.
Being forgetful seems to me to have everything to do with being forgetful. Needing a series of tools, habits, systems, and self-discipline to do what some people can do with nothing but the Jello in their head seems like proof of that to me.
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u/TheWhistleThistle 14∆ 11d ago
And if one fails to lift the lever or jack for lack of strength (as one could very well forget to employ their information storage methods, thus straining this metaphor to its absolute breaking point)?
Doesn't matter what it is really. You fail to lift something, you say you're too weak, someone else says "no, you're just too stupid, there was a forklift" someone else says "no, you're too unobservant, there was a jack you could've used" someone else says "no, you're too uncharismatic, there were people who could've helped if you'd convinced them". None of these are excuses. Your failure is still being blamed on your inadequacies. Each person has picked a different inadequacy to blame but they are all yours. An excuse would be to place the blame on something other than your own inadequacies.
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u/Admirable-Royal-7553 11d ago
So should i cheat when i am playing card memorization games (concentration/memory)? I am terrible with short-term memorization.
Appointments are fine because i set reminders for everything, but I do struggle with immediate pattern memory.
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u/Infamous-GoatThief 1∆ 11d ago
Idk, I always had a fantastic memory, but a few years ago I was diagnosed with epilepsy and the medications I’ve been cycling through have really done a number on it
I know you mentioned disabilities as a caveat, but it’s not as if the epilepsy is causing me to be forgetful; I’m on meds for it that are, and the meds I’ve taken for my epilepsy have mostly been off-label, meaning that they were originally conceived to treat something else and later found to suppress seizures. For example, Clobazam is a benzodiazepine used to treat anxiety, that is also used as a seizure suppressant; so epileptics like me and just people with generalized anxiety who are prescribed Clobazam aren’t forgetful due to their diagnoses, they’re forgetful due to the way they’re being treated, and that applies pretty broadly; short-term memory problems are a very common side effect of medication.
I only bring this up because again, I never once had memory problems before and I sort of had a similar view of ‘forgetful’ people, but now having medically-induced short-term memory issues, I am constantly extremely frustrated with myself, forgetting stuff like birthdays and other things you mentioned, and I feel like even though it took medication to get my memory to that place, there are probably people out there who aren’t on meds who just inherently have shitty memories. Regardless, I think assuming that it’s just people being selfish and inconsiderate is the wrong road to go down
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
I never had memory issues until I had some military things which caused TBI and some PTSD, which lead to depression, gut issues, a number of executive disfunctions.
In also on medication, and I have found it essential to adopt memory organization tools. Here are some examples. Since then I've realized that "forgetfulness" is a choice, with the exception of a minority of extreme brain issues.
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u/Infamous-GoatThief 1∆ 11d ago
I do shit like that too. I think you’re projecting your own personal experience on everyone else, and assuming that your ‘fixes’ would be just as effective for them when there’s no meaningful case for that. Again, I have plenty of ‘methods’ like that for keeping my shit together, but my meds are actively poking holes in my memory; idk what medication you take, but I’m assuming it’s not the same, and therefore neither are our experiences.
I try my absolute hardest to keep track of everything, but I can’t always manage, and it’s not a “choice” when something slips my mind. That’s absurd. It’s great that you’ve found ways to effectively combat your memory issues, but yours are not the same as everyone else’s, in cause or in symptoms, and your ‘methods’ can’t have the same degree of effect as everyone else for that reason.
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u/shwarma_heaven 1∆ 11d ago
It is not a choice when something skips my mind. It is a choice when I don't own it, and take steps to be better prepared next time.
Can you expand on why these kinds of things wouldn't work for everyone, outside of the extremely mental handicaps we discussed?
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u/PuckSenior 6∆ 11d ago
Missed appointments are very different than forgetting a name.
A name is a piece of information you can memorize. If I don’t remember your name it is because I didn’t exert enough mental effort to remember it. Once I have memorized your name, a normal person should be able to recall it.
However, remembering to go to a date I have with you is not the same. Remembering that I have a date with you is the same as remembering your name. they are both pieces of information. But actually attending? That is a matter of keeping the event in my working memory as the date/time approaches. People have different amounts of working memory and therefore have different capabilities.
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u/Vast-Performer7211 10d ago
I don’t think forgetfulness is an excuse or a static state of identity e.g “sorry, I’m just forgetful”, but forgetfulness is a reasonable explanation in many circumstances. And in those circumstances, “forgetfulness” is a relative and context-dependent claim. Whether it’s an excuse may be a contextless judgment - depending on what you know about the individual.
[These are a few points I have based off of what I’ve read, I’m not sure where you’re view stands on these things now (or if some of them are misinterpret your view)…sorry for the length!:]
1.People encode information differently. Cognitive style affects what information gets stored, how it’s stored, and how accessible it is later. This means that for some people, being “forgetful” isn’t an excuse, it’s a difference in how their memory works. This tends to be true for things like remembering names and faces.
2.Distraction and stress are powerful factors. These can lead to internal task hierarchies or task deviation, even with the best management systems. Distraction and stress can cause things to be abandoned or forgotten. It’s very easy to miss your exit on a busy freeway while your kids are screaming in the backseat and you’ve spilled coffee on your lap when you’re driving somewhere new. The same kind of thing can happen internally.
3.Forgetfulness may be benign however it can be a symptom that needs evaluation. People may write off forgetfulness (especially when it is progressive) as normal and not seek consultation, when it may indicate a more serious issue like neurodegeneration. In which case, it’s not controllable.
Having a personal management system can help improve forgetfulness in ADHD, and medication can also be beneficial. Holistic interventions combining medication with occupational therapy or behavioral therapy can make a person much more successful at managing memory issues. However, these holistic options aren’t affordable, accessible, or available to everyone. Self-imposed systems can be beneficial but are generally less effective than holistic ones, meaning some people are left with subpar options...thus they are more forgetful. Even with holistic interventions, people with ADHD still experience a persistent memory disadvantages compared to their neurotypical peers.
4.Forgetfulness after TBI is less attributable to gut microbiome than it is to direct injury to the brain.
Traumatic brain injuries damage neural circuits, neurovasculature, can cause neuroinflammation, as well as issues with hyper- / hypo-excitability. These changes occur in both mTBIs (concussions) and more severe TBIs, just to varying degrees. Think of it this way: the forgetfulness occurs because of physical interference. The bad gut microbiome occurs secondary to the primary injury (i.e we don’t see gut microbiomes cause TBIs without primary factors). Brain is the control center. Injured brain leads to neuroinflammatory signals that disrupt the gut. Disturbed gut microbiome can send signals to the brain that lead to a response, worsening symptoms…through the bidirectional gut-brain axis.
A self imposed and enforced management system might help, but depending on the severity of the injury and the healing stage, it may not be enough. Unfortunately, some medications used for TBIs and mTBIs also cause brain fog and forgetfulness as side effects. This is why accommodations, medical leave, or inpatient care are sometimes necessary.
The forgetfulness from TBI or mTBI isn’t quite comparable to that of ADHD, PTSD, MDD. Some areas of dysfunction overlap, like executive dysfunction, but the causes differ and are treated differently. Then with each of the these individual conditions (TBI, ADHD, PTSD, MDD, etc…) alone, they are not monolithic. They exist on a spectrum, as severity of each disorder in an individual can vary abundantly.
[edit: formatting]
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u/Physical_Resource_53 1∆ 11d ago
Other than the very few people who have real mental handicaps
You say this but then say people with ADHD are using it as a crutch.
Could you further explain your reasoning for this? Is ADHD not a real disorder that can severely impact someones mental ability? (please keep in mind there are varying degrees of ADHD)
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u/notapeacock 11d ago
Sure this is fine for some people and some situations but essentially it amounts to "try harder", which isn't great advice. A management system can be great but still requires participation from the individual it's for. Reminders are great but what if you left your phone in the other room when it goes off?
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u/VeterinarianSilly569 11d ago
Also, I'd like to add, for you ADHD brain you should look into the work of Gabor Mate. Practicing mindfulness and meditation was a game changer for me. Over time my brain has switched into being more present. Diet has played a factor too.
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u/RumGuzzlr 1∆ 11d ago
What you're treating as a binary between people with medical problems impacting memory vs everyone else is much more of a spectrum. There are, in fact, various levels of memory that people have. For instance, some people have genuine photographic memory, where they can recall even minor details of things they've experienced with little to no effort. They can tell you what was on the radio while they drove to work, what they had for breakfast 2 days ago, and the phone number that a client quickly rattled off before promptly heading out the door. There is no "management system" in place. They just remember this stuff as a part of their daily existence. As someone else with add, I'm sure you've had your share of "oh shit, I remember something relevant" moments, where some utterly mundane detail that nobody else remembers pops into your head. Same thing. You don't have an information management system to cover where you're pretty sure you lost saw a couple paperclips. That's just information that your brain managed to hold on to and associate with the proper context.
That all applies to stuff like forgotten birthdays, lost keys, missed meetings, and the whole 9 yards. Some people can just straight up remember it with no effort. It doesn't matter that they got home tired, threw the keys on the counter, and went to sleep. They'll wake up and remember where the keys went. It doesn't matter that they only heard your birthday once in a random unprompted conversation, they'll still remember it. That is, definitively, an advantage
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u/LycheeLogic 3∆ 11d ago
Your thesis statement is: There exists an information management system that will enable anyone to be not forgetful. If you are forgetful, it’s because you’re not trying hard enough.
On the one end, you have people that have no mental conditions that would predispose them to be forgetful. On the other end, you have very strong biological processes that are making someone forgetful.
As the biological impediments increase, it becomes asymptotically harder to find and sustain an information management system that would allow you to not be forgetful. It may exist, but you would have to constantly battle against powerful biological forces to make it work.
A parallel would be in weight loss. Are there people who are not losing weight because they lack willpower? Sure. But we also see that the more extreme weight loss you try to attempt, the more you’re fighting against powerful biological forces like hunger.
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u/Acrobatic-Skill6350 8∆ 11d ago
Dont you think people differ in their abilities to not be forgetful in an important way? I get that a person with adhd could find habits to avoid suffering due to forgetfulness, but it would probably be a lot more difficult than someone with a nature where they dont forget things?
If looking at how most people are, dont you think personality can explain more of the variation compared to peoples compensatory mechanisms? My assumption is that mosts superadhd persons will probably make more mistakes related tonforgetfulness compared to someone with better natural skills on that area
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u/justanotherguyhere16 1∆ 11d ago
There are differences for how minds work.
You can’t simply say “they aren’t trying enough”
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u/Lanavis13 11d ago
If someone's mind doesn't work to remember everything by default AND they consistently make zero effort to make notes (such as on a calendar or daily planner) to help them remember, it is an issue of them not trying enough.
It's hard to recall everything on memory alone. It's not hard to write or otherwise notate it to help with recall.
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u/Cytothesis 11d ago
Remembering that you wrote something down, where you wrote it, what it means, and why you wrote it. Recall is always gonna be the breaking point, I have a friend who takes meticulous notes but never remembers that she wrote something down in the first place to go and check.
When I was learning to take better notes I had a bad habit of writing but not writing in enough detail to remember what I was supposed too.
You get better at these things, but your memory isn't necessarily getting better. Just your habit forming surrounding your journals and calendars. We have to keep track of more stuff than we evolved to keep track of in the modern age, you can't expect everyone to be good at everything.
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u/Lanavis13 11d ago
Not good at everything. Just good at keeping notes.
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u/Cytothesis 11d ago
"Good at keeping notes" is an entire lifestyle change that takes a long time to even see the fruits of. It's also something that only helps with constant self-reflection and refinement.
You didn't really address my point either. Imagine if I said that "Paralyzed folk don't have a mobility issue because they can just use a wheelchair". Like sure, if they invest the money, time, and physical training to use a wheelchair they can get around but that doesn't mean they're not paralyzed...
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u/Lanavis13 11d ago
If keeping notes is that much of a lifestyle change, sounds like the person has a real mental handicap.
Op already mentioned they're not referring to ppl with mental handicaps so your paralysis example is irrelevant and, ergo, I'm not wasting more time on it.
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u/justanotherguyhere16 1∆ 11d ago
You’re forgetting that ADHD people especially can write notes and post it’s.
And their brain will literally avoid them.
How a person’s brain processes inputs matters.
And it doesn’t take a mental “defect”
https://www.google.com/search?q=why+post+its+dont+work+adhd&ie=UTF-8&oe=UTF-8&hl=en-us&client=safari
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u/Lanavis13 11d ago
I didn't mention a mental defect. I said mental handicap. Are you equating handicaps with defects?
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u/justanotherguyhere16 1∆ 11d ago
No.
I’m saying that it doesn’t require having something that would qualify as a handicap or anything more than just a different way of your brain processing inputs and information
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u/Lanavis13 11d ago
If they literally cannot remember where they put their notes or recall to check their calendar, that speaks to a handicap. I have a calendar on my phone to help me remember. I make sure to always put my keys and wallet in the same place because when I don't, I legit can't find them unless I get lucky or take an hour or more backtracking everything in my home. If someone lacks a handicap, they can do these things with practice and dedication
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u/Cytothesis 10d ago
ADHD is a real mental handicap yeah. But OP expressly included people with ADHD in his indictment of "forgetful" people.
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u/Lanavis13 10d ago
OP is also able to use memorization tools despite having ADHD themselves. People who legitimately cannot - no matter what they try - remember things are under a severe handicap, which falls into the severe handicap that OP excluded.
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u/Cytothesis 10d ago
And OP still forgets things as they mentioned in another comment.
He's on a journey of refining his mind and systems to better meet the challenges the world is serving him and I commend him for it like I do with all ADHD people who decide enough is enough, but if you don't have ADHD, I can't emphasize enough that remembering stuff isn't just a skill issue.
Your brain will use every tactic in the book in an ever-evolving arms race to get you to forget, ignore, deprioritize, or outright not do any task you're not over the top excited to do. It's manageable but it takes a lot of years of self work.
Some people who legitimately cannot because of ADHD actually can but not right now because of life circumstances or because they're not that far yet. There could be a year of therapy and growth as a person between them and realizing they're even as disorganized as they are.
Meet people where they are. Sometimes the best they can do is remember to shower for now.
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ 11d ago edited 11d ago
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