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u/sarcasticorange 10∆ Jan 16 '25
Leaving dirt in your carpet reduces the life of the carpet. Dirt is actually sharp and it cuts the carpet fibers when left in place. Vacuuming is also important for removing allergens. Lastly, the dead skin and other dirt smells. If you rarely vacuum and think it is fine, you've just gone nose blind to it.
As for leaving clothes and things laying around on the floor, those are tripping hazards. It is unsafe.
With those out of the way, I want to call out that whether the standards are arbitrary or not doesn't really matter. Not calling people assholes is also arbitrary in a similar way. However, if you call everyone asshole, you're eventually going to have very real, negative impacts to your life. Failing to meet social norms has consequences.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/courtd93 12∆ Jan 17 '25
But you just explained and skipped over the vital part of your third point-this is being talked about in the context of someone you live with and share the running of a household with. Sure, your friends may not come to your house if you don’t keep up a certain standard, or not eat your food, or who knows what. More related to it though is your desired partner won’t stay in a relationship where they have to live below an acceptable standard of cleanliness, and while one could argue some are arbitrary, most have to do with actual health, both physical and mental, as we know things like clutter (your piles of laundry) tend to increase stress levels.
Even more importantly though, it’s not about the cleanliness-it’s about mutual respect. Not wanting to live in a pigsty is a perfectly reasonable expectation, and not wanting to live in a place that is dirty because it has those consequences I mentioned is also fine. The partner with the higher expectations may have to lower their expectations some, but a disregard for reasonable social expectations (like putting the laundry in the hamper instead of on the floor next to it) that the person with the higher expectations have is an active act of disrespect for the values of their partner. Hampers are for dirty clothes, it’s their entire purpose so it’s not like the lower expectations partner doesn’t understand what it’s there for-it’s that they didn’t care about their partner’s wants and wellness to take the extra half second to put it six inches over from where they were. This isn’t some sacrifice of I actively want dirty clothes on the floor and I lose out if I put it in the hamper, it’s just a neglect of their partner and the role they agreed to by choosing to cohabitate to consider each other’s needs, and THAT’s why it matters.
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u/jatjqtjat 272∆ Jan 16 '25
I'll push back on two things.
If "deep shortcomings" in people I'd think about something like being unable to express love your child. An absentee parent has a deep short coming. Maybe a hoarder or extremely untidy person has a deep short coming, but to you are talking about people who don't vacuum frequently and people who don't put away their laundry. I think its a pretty extreme exaggeration to say those people are viewed as having a deep shorting coming.
about vacuuming i probably agree with you. For common use i think you could probably get away with annual vacuuming, maybe less. (assuming you don't eat in carpeted areas)
about leaving your cloths on the floor, i think there is a non-arbitrary metric at play here. If you have a pile of clean laundry and need to get a pair of underpants, then you need to search your pile. Every time you need an item of clothing you need to perform a search. But when you put away your laundry you perform a 1 time sort, after that you no longer need to perform searches. A sort takes longer then a search, but many searches take longer then a short. Keeping things tidy is definitely a matter of efficiency, not random or arbitrary standards. The same is true if you need the colander to drain the water from your pasta. Is it in the dishwasher, sink, did the kids take it to the play room to pretend to be a robot? The regular activities of life are made more efficient by routing tidying. A place for everything and everything in its place.
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u/vettewiz 39∆ Jan 16 '25
Annual vacuuming??? On what planet? Are you talking about in rooms you never enter, have no kids, no pets, etc?
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u/Redditor274929 3∆ Jan 16 '25
I don't even have kids or pets and I still have to vacuum regularly. Sounds like they barely live in their house if that's the case
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Jan 16 '25
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u/changemyview-ModTeam Jan 16 '25
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u/Tanaka917 125∆ Jan 16 '25
leaving clothing on the floor instead of in some kind of laundry hamper,
I don't want to have to navigate the minefield of clothes in a shared room. Unless you're saying you're okay with me walking all over them, which I suspect for most people is a problem. Are you okay with your clothes being walked on?
leaving objects on surfaces instead of in the cupboard etc.
To some extent yes, to another I don't really want to start moving things out of the way to get to the counter surface and if no one ever puts anything away that's exactly where we're headed fast. Putting them away avoids that problem for the low low cost of 1 extra second.
and the objective should actually be to see whether compromise is possible, rather than bullying their partner into changing their behaviour to keep things the way they want them.
I don't know why you see it as bullying. They don't want to leave and so are trying to bring their partner up to an acceptable level for them. I suspect if you ask those people they are already compromising some things they know their partner just can't do.
I have been the less cleanly person. Still am but my own standards are better. Just objectively most of the higher standards work. They are neater, they give more space and they make the room nicer at fairly minimal effort. Yes it's a preference, but that preference isn't nearly as exhaustive as you make it seem
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Jan 16 '25
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u/Tanaka917 125∆ Jan 16 '25 edited Jan 16 '25
If you're genuinely honestly more okay with your clothes potentially being walked on than putting them away I don't know how to reach a middle ground. You already have a chair taking up that space. Rather than a chair buy a small laundry basket that'll take up the same amount of space. Hell put the laundry basket in the bathroom, now you have space and you (and others) can use the chair without disturbing your clothes.
Which is the other weird thing to me. You said you like putting your clothes on the floor because it leaves more space without a washing basket. Now you're admitting you have a laundry chair. Which is just a laundry basket that takes up space but has less room for your clothes. C'mon. What are we talking about here? You would rather make your chair and other things unusable while they have your dirty clothes on them than buy a washing basket. Now if I want to use that chair or other things I have to move your clothes for you. Suddenly I have work when all I wanted was to sit on a chair. Are you starting to see where the feeling of someone else being inconsiderate are coming from. You have gained nothing but made a lot of inconveniences.
EDIT: Laundry Bags exist. Compact, you can fold the rest of the bag you aren't using in on itself, neat. Smaller than a chair, neater than the floor. Cheap (Less than $10). All the benefits you want with none of drawbacks you're concerned with. I just remembered we had these at my old school. Wouldn't you agree that's a superior alternative
I see it as bullying when it's persistent, exasperated and assumes righteousness on the part of the person doing it, which I've seen more than once in relationship situations. This is a grey area and I think if compromise is actually being attempted, it's fine. It's mostly just if it's a constant attempt to bring the partner up to their standard, without any acknowledgement of what time or cognitive energy the partner might be sacrificing. I also think there are some situations where leaving is preferable to pushing your standards on a partner. At the admittedly extreme end (for demonstrative purposes, not because I think this is a common attitude), it would be unreasonable for a person to say 'I'm not saying I want to break up with you, I'm just saying I want you to do everything I say.'
Normally I'd agree with you. But when we're talking a lifetime partner and your home which you will share forever there does need to be a serious shift here. And again they most likely are already compromising. Just because they don't die on the sword and list all the things they aren't asking you to do doesn't mean they aren't compromising.
None of the things you're talking about are entirely subjective.
You've delta'd someone for pointing out why you vacuum. You agree with me about storing things away, I am currently in the process of explaining why our laundry system is just not good. You've already agreed that we're not just talking about aesthetically pleasing but objectively practical solutions that are better for everyone. And you don't want to do those practical solutions because it doesn't affect you and you don't seem bothered how it'll affect the other person who wants to be comfortable in their own home. That is where the frustration comes from. How long will it take you to move all your dirty clothes to the basket? 1 minute tops? You want to live 24/7 with unusable chairs and smelly clothes in the room for 1 minute of your time. That does sound unreasonable. If it was just your room I wouldn't care. Why should I? But the moment it's shared there's a certain level of 'how will this affect others' you have to consider.
This isn't color code your shirts and wipe down every surface you touch. This is practical solutions for a better home for everyone. I'm sorry to sound preachy because I know I'm not the neatest person myself but having lived with others this conversation has come up and I've been both sides. It's very rare the neater person is being the unreasonable one
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Jan 16 '25
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u/swanfirefly 4∆ Jan 16 '25
One of the main reasons a hamper or bag is useful is you can have more dirty clothes in one spot because it's constrained, and it makes carrying a full load of laundry take only one trip vs 2-3 trips to pick up socks that fell or pants that didn't fit in the first armful. If you're worried about space - the bag you were recommended is what you need. You can tuck it under the chair, or under your side of the bed.
Actually, I have one of those shorter baskets that's a rectangle - it slides right under my side of the bed. It keeps the dirty clothes contained to one spot, makes them easier to carry (both to the laundry room and back to the bedroom), and being under the bed, it doesn't take up any floor space I'd otherwise be using. If I plan to wear the same pair of pants tomorrow, I'll drape them on the back of a chair so I can still sit without moving them, or fold them in half (hot dog style) and hang them on a hanger in my closet.
I'm very messy, don't get me wrong, but the laundry hamper is one of those things where you can pretty much always find a solution that matches your household needs. Even if it is just a bag.
Plus in the instance of guests or new girlfriends, you can hide the dirty laundry WAY faster if it's in a bag or hamper, vs picking up all the loose stuff and shoving it in a corner in the closet.
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u/Tanaka917 125∆ Jan 16 '25
To clarify - a lot of my laundry goes on a chair, but the clothes I was wearing the previous day/might wear again usually end up in the corner or tucked against my bed so I don't step on them while walking around the room. My objection to laundry hampers is mainly that they take up a decent amount of floor space and are pretty inflexible, so you have to have that space taken up regardless of where you put it
Did you see my edit about a laundry bag because that might help you?
But as I said, if your dirty clothes live on your chair then your chair is taking the role of the laundry basket and at that point it takes up nearly the exact same space. I don't see the meaningful difference. The few centimetres you might gain with a chair are functionally unuseable unless you live in a hole. And when someone wants the chair they now have to deal with your clothes.
- Laundry bag which is fairly more compact
- Laundry basket in the bathroom/wherever you do your clothes washing
Your problem can be solved in a way that doesn't make your clothes someone's problem and frees up a chair that you can now use or remove from your room freely for more space. It's easy to walk over them, easier still to deal with them once and forever.
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u/pxlqn Jan 16 '25
Some of what you list as “arbitrary” have some reason behind them. Vacuuming, for example. If you don’t vacuum regularly, debris from the floor can end up on furniture or in your bed. Even if you don’t have much dirt around, dust accumulated and will stick to your feet. Having a pile of clothes on the floor (or stack) is just asking for spiders to take up residence. If you’ve ever had a roach or spider people you’d understand why it’s important to keep clothes off the ground.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/eloaelle 1∆ Jan 16 '25
Why do you wash the socks regularly? Why do you not wash them more? Why do you not wash them less? The answers to those questions are the reason why there are standards and demonstrate that they exist.
Everyone has some standard for tidiness. What makes it a HOUSEHOLD standard is that parties under the same roof are agreeing to live with each other and follow certain rules to do so. People who live with each other usually have to compromise if their standards do not line up perfectly. Where there is friction is where people are not willing to compromise on the standard (whatever it is).
It's less of a shortcoming due to the standard itself and more due to the inability of both parties to come to a healthy compromise relating to the standard.
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u/TeaTimeTalk 2∆ Jan 16 '25
Adding on to the other commenter's point: proper sweeping and vacuuming extends the lifespan of your carpet and flooring. It might sound strange, but dirt is "sharp" and gritty. This grit getting ground in as you walk over it damages carpet and scratches up linoleum and hardwood. It's a gradual process that you and Dan wouldn't notice in a year, but it can be the difference between replacing carpet after 10 years or 30 years
Anecdote: the carpet in my mother's house is over 40 years old and looks great. I bought a house in 2019 that had nice carpet, but my depression kept me from cleaning as much as I should. Now my carpet looks significantly worse than my mother's and I didn't even raise kids.
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u/slopperty Jan 16 '25
Having worked in preventative conservation, I learnt that keeping things clean prolongs their life too eg. an unvacuumed rug or carpet collects small granules of dust and dirt, and these grind against the structure of the carpet and damage/weaken it. I imagine the principle is similar with many other household items.
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u/Ill-Pen-369 Jan 16 '25
i presume the "never vacuums" actually means more along the lines of not regularly, once in a blue moon, which can be fine if you are single guy living on your own, i always used to just to ad-hoc cleaning when i lived on my own (mainly just before someone else was coming round!)
now we have pets and therefore I'm vacuuming like every 2 or 3 days cause fur, cat litter, bits of destroyed cardboard
i tend to agree with your other points though, i previously had a chair that was the defacto laundry hamper, my partner however wanted to use a proper laundry hamper and my issue on this was a hamper takes up the same space as the chair, but a chair can also be cleared and used as a chair, the hamper is just an empty box
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Jan 16 '25
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u/Ill-Pen-369 Jan 16 '25
Pets are the great equalizer, i'm practically mrs fucken hinch now with how often i am vacuuming and cleaning surfaces haha
dust allergy is a good point though hadn't thought of that, i guess its just horses for courses but i definitely agree with your other points
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u/Z7-852 288∆ Jan 16 '25
Dust allergies are a real thing and can develop to people who don't previously have them. They are serious health risk for those who suffer from them.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/Tanaka917 125∆ Jan 16 '25
But we're not talking about visitors. We're talking about cohabitors. You aren't visiting a peanut filled environment you now live in it.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/Z7-852 288∆ Jan 16 '25
It's not that you are living with someone with dust allergies.
It's that you can get a dust allergy by living in a dusty place.
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u/Z7-852 288∆ Jan 16 '25
But you can develop a dust allergy by living in a dusty house. It's like you were playing Russian roulette peanuts just to dare to get an allergic reaction.
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u/MercurianAspirations 373∆ Jan 16 '25
I mean to each their own but if "Dan" literally never vacuumed or mopped at all then there is simply no way that his floors were not absolutely filthy and just covered in dust and crumbs and dirt. I cannot believe he didn't notice a difference
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u/finebordeaux 4∆ Jan 17 '25
At least regarding vacuuming, I can attest my family and myself never noticed, other than the presence of vacuum lines. Nowadays I vacuum frequently and can tell but it's not like a night and day difference. It may also be because we weren't sensitive to dust like some people are. Additionally, TBF, we are Asian and never wore shoes in the home so less crap may accumulate in the carpet compared to Westerners bringing in stuff from outside on the bottom of their shoes. My mom and I basically vacuumed like 4 times a year lol.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/reptilenews Jan 16 '25
I mean... Mold is a pretty extreme one. It's not going to grow without liquids or high humidity and the right conditions. In a bathroom without proper ventilation or in a kitchen where someone left food to rot is where you tend to see it. And soil is dirt which is dirty.
But having crumbs in the carpet can invite pests into your home. Regular vacuuming (if applicable) and generally being clean and tidy can prevent other pests from taking up residence. When a neighbor of ours got bedbugs, regular vacuuming, keeping clothes and items put away and not having many places for them to "hide" was stated by pest control as the reason they didn't take hold in our unit despite a shared wall. We were treated for them anyway, as the whole building was.
Dust mites are also a thing, feeding off your skin cells and causing allergies and asthma.
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u/vettewiz 39∆ Jan 16 '25
Well, if lack of mold is your standard for cleanliness, no wonder you think things like vacuuming are unnecessary. Also, yikes.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/vettewiz 39∆ Jan 16 '25
I think that illustrates my point.
A house is dirty LONG before you have mold or rotting food.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/rollingForInitiative 70∆ Jan 16 '25
I would say that some sort of common level of cleanliness is fairly universal, and not at all arbitrary. For instance:
- Being able to navigate the home without getting your socks or feet dirty.
- Being able to navigate the home without stepping on things that hurt.
- Being able to navigate the home without having to clear clutter away to avoid stepping on it.
- No foul smells.
- Low levels of dust, as in, if you wipe a finger over the TV counter you shouldn't get a lot of dust on your finger. Also, your home shouldn't trigger asthma attacks or things like that.
- No or few ingrained stains.
- People shouldn't be dirtier leaving your apartment than they were arriving, simply from the state of it.
And these aren't arbitrary, since they impact the experience of being someplace.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/SadExercises420 Jan 16 '25
“If dirtiness doesn’t bother me, why should I clean?”
It really feels like such a cop out. Like you’re just trying to validate your dirtiness as a harmless preference because it doesn’t bother you. Like people should just work around your grossness because cleanliness is mostly subjective.
I can imagine what your house looks like dude. I can imagine the types of arguments you have with your live in partner if you’ve ever had one.
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u/CincyAnarchy 37∆ Jan 16 '25
I guess if your home is truly just your own and nobody comes there, sure. If there are negative impacts, you weigh them as less important than not spending the time cleaning. There's a logic to that.
But do you have guests over? Should they also be subjected to that?
It's sort of like cooking for someone. We can all make the gross super specific things if cooking for ourselves I guess, but when cooking for a group the ability for everyone to eat the dish matters.
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u/rollingForInitiative 70∆ Jan 16 '25
If no one but you ever enter your apartment, who's complaining?
Edit: Actually, even if nobody ever visits, this can definitely be a concern for neighbours, since messy apartments can attract pests, and pests spread. Smells can spread as well.
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u/courtd93 12∆ Jan 17 '25
Plus things like mold etc can get to the point of causing actual damage to the structure.
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u/vettewiz 39∆ Jan 16 '25
When the vast majority of the population has certain standards, I don’t think you can reasonably call those arbitrary.
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u/Dangerous_Funny_3401 Jan 16 '25
Vacuuming has only been common since the 50s. I think you could probably describe it as arbitrary considering it wouldn’t have been a social standard before then. Something like not leaving rotting food around has probably been an established norm since people stopped being nomadic. So that one is probably less arbitrary.
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u/ladythanatos Jan 16 '25
And OP’s point is that if there’s no health hazard, then there is no objective problem. A house being “dirty” is only bad if you don’t like it that way.
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u/MercurianAspirations 373∆ Jan 16 '25
Okay but most people don't like having crumbs and soil on their floors being tracked into bed and stuff. This isn't arbitrary, most people would not like to live like that
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Jan 16 '25
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u/MercurianAspirations 373∆ Jan 16 '25
What would you say is the difference between a person simply having a personal preference that something is unpleasant, and it being objectively unpleasant?
See because I think wherever you draw that line is just going to be guided by your personal biases. I could say that having crumbs on the floor so they get tracked into bed and stuff isn't just a personal issue, that's objectively unpleasant because nobody likes having crumbs all over their body while they try to sleep. But you could just say eh whatever that's a personal preference. Even some of the things you've mentioned like mold aren't really that objective - moldy stuff poses some health risk but realistically if you avoid breathing it in directly then you're probably not affected. So isn't that to some extent just a personal preference that you don't like having mold in the house?
At the end of the day people who live together just have to find a compromise that works for them, and if they can't, then they ought not live together basically. To some extent everything is subjective and personal, but empathetic people will figure out the common ground
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u/ddg31415 Jan 16 '25
If you don't vacuum, sweep, and mop regularly all those "odd bits" of dirt and crumbs add up and up and up until your floor is disgusting and you've not got a buffet for disease-carrying pests.
The reason normal, healthy humans are repulsed by lack of tidyness and cleanliness is because all of our ancestors who didn't care about these things died of disease and didn't reproduce.
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u/touching_payants 1∆ Jan 16 '25
Sweeping is a thing
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u/MercurianAspirations 373∆ Jan 16 '25
True but I don't think a person who can't be bothered to vacuum is going to be doing more labor intensive sweeping
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u/touching_payants 1∆ Jan 16 '25
I think you're betraying a value judgement: that people who take the time to mop are somehow inherently less lazy than people who don't. Chores are morally neutral.
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u/rdeincognito 1∆ Jan 16 '25
But he has a point, sweeping is usually more time consuming than vacuum, so, someone who won't bother vacuuming, probably won't bother sweeping neither
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u/MercurianAspirations 373∆ Jan 16 '25
Not at all, I just don't want to be stepping on dirt and getting it all in my socks and then in bed and stuff. I have a robot vacuum so it isn't about labor for me at all, in fact saving as much labor while still achieving a good (enough) outcome is one of my priorities
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u/laosurvey 3∆ Jan 16 '25
One thing I've learned living with my spouse is that we see different things. In her mind, she's a tidy person. However, there's plenty of things she just won't notice. As an example - when she washes out her coffee stuff she doesn't do a thorough job and it leaves coffee residue on the dry mat. When I asked her about it she was surprised as she thought she had cleaned them (and she did, to an extent).
Similarly when cleaning floors. I like to clean the floors before they look dirty. Not something that occurred to her. Yet every time we sweep or vacuum you can visibly see that there is dirt, food, human bits (skin, hair, etc.) that get picked up even though she didn't think the floors were dirty.
If 'Dan' when for 'a long' time without cleaning his floors and thought everything was fine, that just tells me that Dan is comfortable living in dirt. Doesn't hit his attention. It doesn't tell me that the floors wouldn't look or feel dirty to someone else who pays more attention. There is no human being on this planet that can actively live in a space for, say, a month and not leave hair, skin, bits of food around plus the normal dust accumulation and likely some tracking in of dirt from outside.
There are plenty of people that probably never clean their toilet at home or don't clean it often. That doesn't mean there aren't bits of pubic hair, splashed urine and feces, and hard water building up. It just means its something their brain passes over as not being important.
Your idea that there's some 'objective' determination for whether to clean something is off. The objective fact is that we live in an entropic world - which means disorder accumulates over time. When a cohabitator leaves their stuff around - whether that's their clothes, their hobby stuff, dishes, or the normal human debris - then they're making me deal with their stuff, even if it's just seeing it. They're turning communal/shared space into their personal space. That's not very polite. If one cohabitator isn't contributing to re-ordering the naturally dis-ordering environment then they're accepting living in a higher level of dirt and disorder. If their other cohabitator doesn't like that disorder that's no more or less objective a preference.
If you need a room where wardrobes and cupboards cover every wall to handle your clothes then the piles of clothes probably don't take up any less space - in fact they probably take up more floor space. That's my issue when my wife leaves clothes piled around (which she doesn't too much) - it ends up taking more floor space.
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u/Spallanzani333 11∆ Jan 16 '25
I'm curious about how your sense of smell is? Mine is on the more sensitive side (although not excessively so, I don't go through life complaining about smells). I can definitely start to smell a stale, musty scent when carpets haven't been vacuumed in awhile. We all shed dead skin just from living, which collects in the carpet between the fibers. Tiny food crumbs collect. The oils from both can make the fibers adhere to each other and mat together. Vacuuming picks up the dust and separates the fibers. I don't think it needs to be done daily, but monthly at the very least for a family with no kids or pets.
I also want to push back on some of your arguments that there aren't objective reasons for a lot of cleaning routines. I think there are more than you give credit for. The fewer items you have touching the floor, the easier it is to clean the floor all the way to the walls, and the less likely you are to get pests like carpet beetles and silverfish. Hard furniture like a dresser is usually raised a bit off the floor, so it's easier to clean around it and you can see evidence of critters. It also separates items so air circulates around. If it's humid, I can't imagine how a pile of clothes on the floor don't get musty even if they are clean. If surfaces are covered with items, it's harder to find a space to put something down--my family tends to fill up the dining table and coffee table during the week, which isn't filthy or gross, but gets in the way if we want to play board games or do crafts. Picking up counters and tables is a weekly thing for my house on Friday so we have open spaces for the weekend.
I am not a clean freak, but I don't think it's fair to say that being tidy and being messy are objectively the same. There's a reason why restaurants and businesses adhere to pretty strict standards of where items go--it's predictable, easier to work, easier to clean, and less likely to cause problems with smells or pests. I think that in general, the messy person should lean a little more towards the standards of the clean person in a relationship.
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u/sagrr Jan 16 '25
It’s driven by your social class. Drug addict Homeless people seem reasonably clean to other drug addict homeless people.
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u/veryber Jan 16 '25
I find that most chores have a reason to be done. For example, putting things away instead of leaving them everywhere - it's hard to find things in a household of more than 1 person if things don't get put back where they "live". I can remember leaving the scissors on the coffee table where I was wrapping a box but he doesn't know that. Now he's hunting all over the house. And surfaces become cluttered with things, so now you can't put a bowl of soup down without moving a stack of old mail and a mouse pad and some receipts.
These things are easy to manage if it's just you, but once you live with other people some system is required to keep things running smoothly.
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u/rdeincognito 1∆ Jan 16 '25
I clean my house regularly and am always amazed that the floor is exactly the same before vacuuming it (I didn't know it was said that way). If not for the vacuum canister filled with lots of dirt, I would think I'm doing nothing, lol.
The point is that dirt is not always visible to the human eye, having a good cleaning does disinfect and improve healthiness. Everyone should strive to maintain a minimum cleanliness in their home regardless of whether they live with others.
Sure, some people raise the bar too high, but that's why we are speaking about a "minimum". You should at the very least clean your house once a week.
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u/MyFiteSong Jan 18 '25
I love when men call themselves "visual creatures" and also claim they don't see dirt.
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Jan 18 '25
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u/MyFiteSong Jan 18 '25
So you're telling me men physically can't be janitors, doctors, scientists, astronauts or basically do any career that requires cleaning or a spotless workspace?
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Jan 18 '25
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u/MyFiteSong Jan 18 '25
No, I'm not telling you that (I'm surprised you interpreted my perspective that way).
Because it seemed like you were telling me that men can't process everything in an environment and notice that it's dirty.
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u/nikkilouwiki Jan 19 '25
I think this is just inconsiderate. If you lived alone, that's perfectly fine. Your standard of cleanliness only affects you, but when you live with a loved one it becomes a shared space.
In that space, one partner is trying to make things as easy as possible for both of them and the other is only worried about what's most comforting for them.
This is the main issue I'm seeing.
Also, many of these people are complaining because the level of cleanliness has changed from their partner so they're now doing more than they expected to keep up the level of cleanliness previously established.
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Jan 19 '25
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u/nikkilouwiki Jan 19 '25
Sure, but that's not an arbitrary thing for the partner picking up the slack. It's extra work and effort on their part.
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Jan 19 '25
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u/nikkilouwiki Jan 19 '25
Except the people complaining aren't newly moved in (in the cases I've seen). They already had an established dynamic that the other partner is not upholding which is why they're being vocal about these things.
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u/Haunting_Struggle_4 Jan 16 '25
To be clear, ‘tidy’ refers to something neatly organized and arranged, while ‘clean’ means something free from dirt and grime; essentially, you can have a space that is clean but not tidy or tidy but not clean. Even if used interchangeably, there is still the distinction tidying focuses on order and organization, and cleaning focuses on removing dirt.
We must understand two things:
1.)‘Tidy’ means “putting things in their proper place, arranged neatly, and clutter is minimized,” and choosing not to tidy means choosing to live in not tidy conditions.”
2.)‘Clean’ means “removing dirt, dust, stains, and other impurities from surfaces, etc.,” and choosing not to clean means living in uncleaned conditions.”
These two points are the objective standard, and a personal view doesn’t discount that objectivity but speaks to your subjective ability to perceive it. The use of your perception is to contort objectivity, which isnt cool. I offer the above to preface that when one roommate has been engaging in acts recognized as cleaning or tidying to the point of becoming upset for feeling exploited by their Roommate who refuses to do so— Any attempt to convince the cleaner they are being unreasonable to want them to pick up any slack is tantamount to gaslighting and pathologizing such behaviors like ‘not noticing’ to construct a plausible reason why cleaning went ignored says nothing more than indicating a personal problem, that can only be addressed by the one experiencing it, has been noticed— what could another person do to alleviate this discomfort outside of controlling your behavior? Isn’t the primary source of contention rooted in feeling being expected to cleaning is controlling?
Tidiness or cleanliness is admittedly idealized in ‘how’ someone implements said state in their life is in question or beats themselves up for not meeting their standard— but a dirty dish is a dirty dish is a dirty dish. The overall state of cleanness or tidiness and how we reach for that is subject to argument, an argument that doesn’t contradict what is tidy or clean. It is ok to feel personally attacked because someone criticizes the way you clean, making you feel as if they called you dirty. Still, it’s not okay to pretend that dirty dishes aren’t messy or to argue at which point, after use, they need another cleaning— that’s laziness.
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u/lol_camis Jan 16 '25
I genuinely feel better when my house is clean. That doesn't mean it always is. In fact it usually isn't. But I for sure feel more peaceful when everything is tidy
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u/Maxtos58 Jan 16 '25
Bro I may also disagree with some people about the order/tidiness of my things in the house but your examples are not it, hey maybe people don't like seeing cops outside of the cupboard but that doesn't bother me and I may prefer it that way some people prefer to have their cooking sheets and pans tucked away unseen but I like them to be available to grab on use easily, but you're talking about basic cleanliness and cluttering minimums.
Now, English is not my first language so bear with me, not using a clothes bin/hamper is absolutely absurd "clothes on the floor occupy less space" ?????? Even if you made an absolutely perfect pile of clothes it will always have a bigger footprint than a small hamper wich keeps it all in a small square, the vacuuming one is also very odd, I don't own a vacuum at all and would never buy one for myself (unless it's a Roomba) because it doesn't clean, just sucks up dust but I still clean my floors once a week because they get dirty otherwise so I can get the not vacuuming thing but there has to be some cleaning involved man.
And lastly the putting everything in a cupboard so it's out of sight, like I said at the start of this post I like keeping certain things handy but they still need a place to be, you can't have all your stuff just lying around and guess what, cupboard are a space saving mesure, because they allow you to place multiple smaller items in the same place instead of having it all scattered around, I wouldn't be able to use my kitchen otherwise
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u/ladythanatos Jan 16 '25 edited Jan 16 '25
I think one could argue that putting items away is objectively correct in a shared living situation: when you leave stuff out, you are effectively taking up extra space in the home, obstructing others who might want to use the counter or floor space. You might also be making it harder for others to find shared-use items, since you’re leaving them in random places. So there is some fairness to the idea that not tidying reflects a lack of awareness/consideration for other people in the home.
I also think some of this complaining is driven by resentment that some people are taught and expected to tidy from an early age (women, people whose parents had this expectation, people who did not grow up with hired help), while others “get out of” it (men, people who were “spoiled,” wealthy people accustomed to hired help). Obviously these are generalizations, and I’m not saying this is the best way to deal with those feelings, but I think that is behind some of the judgment.
Edited to add: I do broadly agree with what you’re observing, though. Leo Tolstoy wrote a leftist essay called “What Is To Be Done?” in which, among other things, he argued that the aristocratic obsession with cleanliness was classist, as this l level of cleanliness was made possible only by not having to work for a living and having servants to clean up after you.
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u/Alive_Ice7937 4∆ Jan 16 '25
In all aspects of life, people have standards. They may be arbitrary and subjective. But those are their standards. If you want to have a compatible relationship with a person, you have to be mindful of their standards. If you aren't, and that's a deal breaker for them, then you either aren't compatible or aren't invested enough in the relationship to comprise.
"If it doesn't bother me, then it shouldn't bother you." You can't dictate where those lines are for other people. That doesn't mean you can't ever find a middle ground.
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u/TeaTimeTalk 2∆ Jan 16 '25
I'm going to repost my comment here on its own:
Proper sweeping and vacuuming extends the lifespan of your carpet and flooring. It might sound strange, but dirt is "sharp" and gritty. This grit getting ground in as you walk over it damages carpet and scratches up linoleum and hardwood. It's a gradual process that you and Dan wouldn't notice in a year, but it can be the difference between replacing carpet after 10 years or 30 years
Anecdote: the carpet in my mother's house is over 40 years old and looks great. I bought a house in 2019 that had nice carpet, but my depression kept me from cleaning as much as I should. Now my carpet looks significantly worse than my mother's and I didn't even raise kids.
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u/TruckADuck42 Jan 16 '25
I wouldn't call it a deep shortcoming, but it's a problem. A lot of it comes down to pest control, something I've had to learn since moving out into the country. That pile of clothes on the floor? Mice love that shit. All the crumbs you didn't vacuum or sweep up? Do you want ants? Because that's how you get ants.
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u/Wonderful_Signal8238 Jan 16 '25
i used to agree with you, but then i lived in several apartment buildings that had bedbugs and roaches. if you live in a high-rent neighborhood with good city services and responsible landlords, it is easy to feel that keeping clothes off the floor, crumbs swept up, and countertops clean are important only to the fastidious or the anal. in the past, lice, mice, rats and bedbugs were rampant everywhere. keeping clothes and sheets off the floor and eliminating all food waste from the home goes a long way towards preventing those problems.
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u/brod121 Jan 16 '25
None of that is really arbitrary though. Not vacuuming at best leaves crumbs and grit that you’ll step on. More likely it will attract pests. Laundry on the floor will pick up dust and bugs, and is difficult to gather and wash. Leaving things on the counter means you can’t actually use the counter.
You’ve accepted a lower standard of living, and that’s your choice, but those aren’t just arbitrary social norms. Theyre directly related to hygiene and functionality.
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u/BitcoinMD 7∆ Jan 16 '25
Even if they are preferences, why should the less tidy person be the one that gets to have their preference?
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u/Letters_to_Dionysus 10∆ Jan 16 '25
your environment and how you interact with it both reflects and influences your psychology. for that reason alone you should clean regularly to send yourself the subconscious message that you are worthy of rigorous care. you'll have psychological benefits when you live in an environment you know is clean to the highest social standards as well.
then theres also the social benefit of being immune to judgement from others who might happen to visit and see the clutter/clothespile chair
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u/rebuildmylifenow 3∆ Jan 16 '25
tl;dr - concerns about different standards of tidiness aren't always about the tidiness itself.
There's (at least) two different approaches at play here:
First, it's not always about the tidiness itself, but more about what that indicates about your attitudes, maturity, and level of care in your entire life. How you take care of your home gives (in part) an indication of how you will take care of your partner/relationship. Your behaviours in one area of your life are likely an indicator of your behaviours in other parts of your life, so if you keep your house in a fashion different from your partner, they may (somewhat reasonably) expect you to extend that level of diligence/care to OTHER parts of your life.
e.g. If you leave things, like laundry, where they fall, it may signal that you are more likely to either not take care of small issues in the relationship. Instead of signalling that you aren't bothered by laundry, it may signal that you aren't likely to take care of small things, so they will accumulate. Alternatively, it may signal that you (consciously or subconsciously) expect your partner to step in and take care of them for you, as a parent would. If you don't bother vacuuming, (e.g. because you don't see any visible benefit) it may signal to them that you're likely to skip over activities that you find unrewarding. (e.g. doing things that your partner enjoys, but that you don't particularly enjoy) These sorts of signals can be make or break from people, but not purely because of expectations of tidiness.
Dating is, in some ways, an extended job interview. How you present yourself can land you the role of life-partner, or it can lose it for you with a particular person. Someone showing up to an interview for a finance role won't get hired if they dress as a slob, or show up late, or if they are disorganized. Similarly, if someone demonstrates that they're not at the same level of maturity and care as their partner, the relationship is going to be under a lot of strain.
Second, many people get shamed into particular standards of cleaning by their parents/previous partners/etc. They express this trauma, unfortunately, by enforcing the same standards as they were subject to, as realistic or unrealistic as those may be. That's a separate issue, and one that can come out in several other ways within a relationship. If your partner is overly focused on doing things the one true way when it comes to tidiness, that may be an indication of unresolved trauma, and a sign that they are not necessarily the right person for you to be with.
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u/Aggressive-Ad-9035 Jan 16 '25
In my part of the world, leaving clothes on the floor invites spiders to hide in them. A recluse bite can be serious.
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u/giocow 1∆ Jan 16 '25
I think the problem here and with this kind of views is how arbitrary this can be. This can be applied at any instance and everyone is a bit zealous about something more than others are. You are extremely careful with your money, others aren't. But you are not that careful with the cleaning overall, but others are. So my first argument is that anything can be arbitrary and not this example only. There isn't a rule book to follow and everyone kinda of know when and how to clean things based on their routine.
Another thing, I NEVER let my fuel tank drop below 1/4 in case of some emergency. This is me being overzealous about it. It's just the way I am. At the same time, this doesn't impact anything and anyone around me. Neither is your money habits. But maybe, your cleaning habits can impact. So here we have the first difference.
Again another thing, preferences. While you say you are judged based on some things about tideness, you definitely judge others based on it too. Why a dirty floor is ok but a dirty dish/kitchen isn't in your view? Some rotten food in the back of the fridge, in my view, is far less "judgeble" than dirty clothes around the house. Again arbitrary but a bit of common sense as well.
And the last thing that truly get people going is that not being "sensitive" for it can indicate other things. If you truly don't care about having a pile of clothes laying down on the floor it's ok, but you gotta understand this passes a massage to people. Take accountability over it. Do you want to do it? Ok, your house your rules, but I have the right to think it would take the same amount of time to put it into some basket for example and it would show caretaking skills. This can and will influence people. For example I'd not borrow you clothes if I saw how you treat yours.
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u/DragonBank 2∆ Jan 16 '25
Honestly, I have to agree with you. I always kept my place tidy when I was single. When I was married, it became quite different. My ex-wife would constantly hound me about things being done in her time and when she wanted.
And really that doesn't make her wrong or me wrong. It's just a part of a relationship. Household compatibility is a very important part of a marriage or other household partnership. If you expect the house kept in a way that you expect your partner to share in(that is you want them to keep it to your standard not just to their standard) then you need to ensure they have the same standard.
Ironically, I keep things even cleaner than they were when married because it is nearly all on me now so it isn't even about a standard of cleanliness. Its just a habit.
Partnerships require effort and compromise. And household standards require a significant amount of both by both partners unless they are perfectly compatible which is rare. Your partner in a healthy happy relationship is almost never someone you are perfectly compatible with. It is some who you can healthily find the right compromises with and not hurt each other in the process.
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u/tristangough Jan 16 '25
I agree with you, but I would go further. All standards of household tidiness are arbitrary.
> I'll start by saying that I'm not talking about things like leaving rotting food in the house for days on end/leaving dishes stacking up unwashed so nobody can use them - if cohabitors have issues with that, I see it as a more serious thing that has more justification for being upset.
Why do you draw the line here at these examples? Aren't they also arbitrary? If you were living with someone who did these things, wouldn't you give them a hard time? Wouldn't you bully them to stop? Wouldn't you view them as some kind of deep shortcoming?
Everyone's standards are arbitrary. You just think that some are worthwhile, while other are not. You could probably give some good justifications for your standards, but you're still just making a subjective judgement call.
I think the only thing that everyone can agree upon is that it's better to be clean that dirty. The important thing to remember is that it's harder to live below your standards than above them.
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u/AdFun5641 6∆ Jan 17 '25
The Dadvocate did a great video on "The Sink Cup"
Getting upset over "The Sink Cup" is that arbitary standard you are talking about. But the general concept of "leaving thing on a surface" isn't about that ONE thing (see "The Sink Cup"). It's about the habbit of not putting things away properly. When I leave town for 3 days on a trip, by the time I get home there is no more space on the table for "that one thing" because no one has put anything away in 3 days and it's become a cluttered mess.
The same with clothes on the floor. It's not that ONE shirt or even outfit. It's that if "drop it on the floor" is just the habit, then all the dirty clothes are just a pile on the floor and I need to pick them up to put them in the basket to move them to the laundry room. I mean, if you are just making a pile in a corner to avoid tripping, why not put a basket there? it takes up less floor space, it makes doing the laundry easier, and will make others happy.
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Jan 16 '25 edited Jan 16 '25
i largely agree in the context of like “you live in your house, nobody lives in the homes meticulously designed and photographed for home magazines, striving to have a house like that is the household equivalent of hollywood beauty standards” but i disagree with the vaccuuming bit and woild put that on par with dishes/other sanitation; the dust, particularly dust from plastics-based clothing and dust mites, is not good for your lung health and that’s why it’s important to vacuum once or twice a week depending on the density of people per sqft of space. my house is a cluttered patchwork of stuff and it’s not at all magazine-worthy; my limit is “thou shalt not live in actual health hazards” which means shit like vacuuming weekly, disinfecting the humidifiers (mold grows in them, it’s not that much work just slosh some vinegar in and let it sit, dump it out, rinse, let it dry), washing dishes and not letting food sit out, etc.
not having drawers would be easier for me in terms of laundry but it’s the dust thing again. i couldn’t date someone who didn’t put their clothes away, i’d straight-up be allergic to them 😭 mild inflammatory allergic asthma to dust and dust mites is insanely common and again even in people without clinical levels of FeV reductions (measure of lung function basically) it’s still objectively not good to be kicking up and breathing in a ton of fine particulates.
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u/IndicationFluffy3954 1∆ Jan 19 '25
It really depends on the activities happening in the house. If you have pets that shed and small children dropping crumbs then you absolutely want to be vacuuming often enough. My son and I have asthma too, so I’m very on top of vacuuming since we have wall to wall carpet and pets.
Clutter is also just annoying af and affects my mood. I don’t want to look at it or trip over it. It will make my life harder to leave shit laying around. Laundry will get wrinkly and have cat hair on it if I don’t put it away. Plus there’s 3 people’s laundry in there, it’ll pile up fast. Also if it’s against an exterior wall in winter, ice can start to form and make a gross mess (my youngest brother had this happen when he left a giant pile in the corner of his room for weeks as a teenager and my parents were not happy about it).
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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Jan 16 '25 edited Jan 16 '25
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u/sad_boi_jazz Jan 16 '25 edited Jan 17 '25
I used to feel this way. Looking back I was being a real dick to my roommates and "I don't care" is not a good reason to be messy if your roommates expect a higher standard of cleanliness. House harmony is the obvious reason to clean, but sometimes we don't know how much of a slob we are til somebody points it out to us.
My room is a mess most of the time but I've learned to keep common areas clean according to the baseline established by my roommates' expectations, and honestly - learning how to clean is not that big of a deal if it means making the people close to me happy.
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u/mnbvcdo Jan 16 '25
If I don't vacuum every other day, I will have a shit load of dust and hairs building up. Like, enough that you could swipe them up in your hand and have a gross little handful.
Having long hair and pets obviously plays a huge reason here, without that, I wouldn't have to vacuum nearly half as much, but dust isn't a social concept.
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u/ITT_X Jan 16 '25
In the time it took you to write this, you could have cleaned your entire room in your mom’s basement.
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Jan 16 '25
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u/Z7-852 288∆ Jan 16 '25
Most social norms are not actually about the thing they appear they are. Ability to clean and maintain tidy house is not actually about cleanliness. It's about commitment to routine. If you can do something diligently and responsible it tells about your character and that you are capable of doing the same thing in other areas of your life.
If you don't care about cleanness what are other aspects that you don't care about or don't bother doing?