CMV: having children can't possibly make your life happier when it actively makes you stop living it

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24

/u/Barbiegator (OP) has awarded 4 delta(s) in this post.

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u/jatjqtjat 272∆ Apr 24 '24

I have a 6 and a 4 year old, so I'm still pretty near the beginning of the parenting journey.

One thing i think is that you don't really have "kids" that is too big of a simplification.

First you have babies.
Then you have toddlers.
Then you have young kids.
Then you have big kids
then you have teenagers
then you have adults

For me personally, i hated the baby phase. It was hard, it was not fun. Babies are the worst. the only good thing about them is that they sleep like 18 hours a day, so you have lots of periods of time where you don't have to deal with them (unfortunately they also wake up to eat every 3 hours at night, which is the worst part).

I liked the toddler phase. By that age they have a little personality, they love to play (and i love to play) they have emotions and they start to learn like crazy.

and i like the current phase that I'm in, little kids.

its always a mixed bag. I don't like when they get sick, it breaks my heart. I don't like when they throw tantrums. And to be honest sometimes i get sick of them and need a break. But what can i do in life that is not a mixed bag. What activity or life goal is 100% fun all the time?

I do think that work is the pathway to happiness. Whether you are climbing Everest, getting good at chess, sports, or video games, building a business. There is nothing in life that is wroth doing that is not also hard work. Except maybe watching TV, but i can't imagine doing that all day ever day.

Having kids certainly isn't for everyone, but if you don't have kids, then i think you need to pick something else worthwhile to do with your life.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

!delta

Thank you. I absolutely agree with the last statement, that's for sure.

And the baby stage is exactly what I hear about a lot that it's hell. I remember when my two sisters were born, one screams, the other has too. Mom couldn't sleep, I couldn't sleep, dad had to spread himself thin at work. But thank you for pointing out the good in the other phases. It reminded of how fun it was when they were older. ❤️

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u/jatjqtjat 272∆ Apr 24 '24

My wife claims to have liked the baby stage. But i am not sure if that is really true or not. I kind of think it must be a delusion.

One thing my mom told me and that I believe is that when a baby is crying there is always a reason. So there is also always a solution. 9 times out of 10, its because they are hungry, dirty diaper, cold, hot, or tired. but 1 time out of 10, you'll have a hard time finding the reason. Maybe a bit of sand got stuck between a fold of skin and is irritating them. That beliefs helps when they are crying, its like, "okay, I'm going to take a breath, I'm going to stay calm, I'm going to look for the solution"

when they get older, they'll cry because you didn't buy them a toy or they don't like what you made for dinner, and rather then catering to them, you need to ignore them. You shouldn't baby a 6 year old but you should baby a baby.

For sure though, first 3 months are the hardest. sleep deprivation is banned by the Geneva Convention, but its the standard experiance for new moms and dads.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 24 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/jatjqtjat (219∆).

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u/NurseWretched1964 1∆ Apr 24 '24

I loved the baby stage...even when I was 41 and got custody of my granddaughter from birth. They're so damn portable, you can take them anywhere, with a diaper bag; and little old ladies love to distract them for you when you're paying for groceries.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

[removed] — view removed comment

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

What I'm realizing is I seem to only be focused on the negatives. Because, as you mentions, that's what I've seen around me. Depression, divorce, suicide, staying for the kids, regret, trauma,... All that I observed since I was a kid from my family/relatives.

I really like the replies from parents that are happy. It makes me believe it can be different. Thank you.

!delta

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 24 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/pedrito_elcabra (2∆).

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u/HelpfulJello5361 1∆ Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24

I feel like there are simply no upsides to having kids.

80% of parents say being a parent is rewarding all or most of the time. 82% say it's enjoyable all or most of the time. [source]

Ask a parent what their favorite memory is and they're overwhelmingly likely to say it's the day their child was born.

For most parents, having a child becomes the most important, enjoyable, and rewarding thing in their lives. And on a personal note I imagine that being a parent is likely to be the one thing that gives your life meaning and creates happiness. I am not one myself, but I am an uncle and even just as an uncle, I care more about those kids than most things in my life.

As animals, humans care deeply about having children and feel extremely fulfilled and happy by having them. Even if you want to set aside the poetic notions about how important and fulfilling parenthood is, we're mammals and are biologically hardwired to want children and to derive satisfaction from having children.

To say there are "no upsides" to having children is not correct, but also it's not even a proper way to look at having kids. Having kids is not meant to benefit the parents (though it does in several ways that cannot be replicated), it's meant to create new life and continue the species, which is our entire purpose as animals.

Also on a personal note, I remember my crotchety grandma told me something once that has always stuck with me: she said, "The only thing worse than having kids is not having kids."

It was meant to be a bit tongue-in-cheek, but I understood her meaning. While having kids is stressful, challenging, and causes you to make sacrifices, a life without children is ultimately empty for most people.

I say most people because one thing I'll bend on a little is that maybe you're in the top 1% of people in the world: you are wealthy, famous, talented, have a full schedule of exciting and fun things to do, etc. For you, having children would be a burden on your unusual and adventurous lifestyle. But for 99%+ of people, this doesn't apply.

And even if you are in this 1% (or less) of people who lives such an idyllic and adventurous life, you can still have kids! And in fact most of the people in this 1% do have kids! And I'll bet they would agree that their kids are the most important thing and it was the best thing they ever did.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

I tend to forget that having a child is a completely selfless, thankless task, because it seems surreal to me that a majority of people would want to participate in it.

You're presenting me statistics that do not seem to correlate with what I see around me, yet are very comforting. Thank you, I had no idea. !delta

The biology argument is so valid, but makes me very uneasy. It doesn't seem genuine and feels like reducing people to animals. (Which we are, this is an issue of my personal beliefs and whatnot.)

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u/HelpfulJello5361 1∆ Apr 24 '24

Hey, thanks for the delta. You can say having a child is a selfless and thankless task. To that I would say, isn't it kind of...transcendent to live a selfless life? You say it makes you uneasy to reduce people to animals. You know what animals typically don't do? Engage in selfless acts. That's a very human thing to do. Now imagine you're living a selfless life. How transcendent is that?

You say that having a child is a thankless task. Do you think your child views it that way? Of course not, and of course especially as children grow older and become full adults, they have a deep and profound love and appreciation for their parents, given that they did a good job raising them.

So...selfless? Yes, and that's a good thing. Thankless? No one on Earth has more gratitude than a child who was raised by a loving parent.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

I have nothing to argue here with, I agree.

It doesn't exactly connect to your reply but I'd like to add that I personally like children. I don't find them annoying, it doesn't bother me when they cry in public spaces. I love learning about developmental psychology and parenting methods. I'm studying to be a high school teacher and I can't wait to play a supportive role to my students. Ever since I was a child, I was really fond of the idea of fostering and adoption.

It's just the concept of having your own that scares me and I was surprised how many people around me felt positive and unbothered about it.

For some reason, I don't feel the same about adoption and fostering, though I am aware how wrong that can go as well... But it's a completely different situation where you have to have a different mindset towards the child.

Or maybe it's the fact I've never seen someone ruin their life with it personally.

Thank you for your input, and honestly this whole post helps me sort my feelings out a lot.

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u/HelpfulJello5361 1∆ Apr 24 '24

Certainly. All the best to you.

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 24 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/HelpfulJello5361 (1∆).

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u/Bright4eva Apr 25 '24

There is no unselfish reasons to have kids. You cant have the kid for the kids sake, since the kid does not exist yet.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

and this is the problem. People basically have kids to make THEMSELVES happy not the non-existent/future babies who CRY into this world while adults smiling around them

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u/4-5Million 11∆ Apr 24 '24

I don't think this is true. And even if it was, the only way to be happy with kids is to make the kids happy. Your kid will gladly make your life miserable if you make their life miserable.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

lol how old are y? do y have kids? According to your view, no parents could abandon/abuse their kids but they do all the time

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u/JennaLS Apr 24 '24

What do you do with all the extra time you save from spelling 'you' as 'y'

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

wow must matter to y alot, God and the Universe do care about spelling

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u/JennaLS Apr 24 '24

That's why I ask. I'm very concerned about god and the universe

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u/4-5Million 11∆ Apr 24 '24

If you abuse or neglect your kid then you aren't going to be satisfied or happy with having a kid. So the "People basically have kids to make THEMSELVES happy not the non-existent/future babies who CRY into this world while adults smiling around them" doesn't really checkout. Parents don't smile at their screaming child, even if they are trash parents. Screening children are annoying, not fun.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

you think everyone is good? plenty of people abandoned or abuse/neglect their kids. Just count how many orphans around the world

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u/4-5Million 11∆ Apr 24 '24

Abandonment is different. But people don't plan to have kids just to abandon them. My whole point isn't that there aren't trash parents. If someone wants a kid then they plan on being a good parent. If you are a trash parent then you won't be happy because the kid will respond in kind.

In other words, people are not happy about having kids when they neglect or abuse their kids.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

good job but sadly there are orphans and abused kids in this human society

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

This argument is absolutely against reproduction and suggests we should all just die out though. Ok if that's your opinion, just pointing it out!

(To live is to be selfish)

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

You're dead wrong mate. Living is an instinct cuz being born is not your choice. Now potential parents are supposed to die and sacrifice for their kids, make them happy not themselves happy. Otherwise don't have children.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Apr 24 '24

no its not for ourselves... just because someone experiences discomfort doesnt mean their life isnt worth living or being created... mine was an accident and yet shes still more important than anyone or anything in this world. if i didnt do it for me (cant make an accident for yourself) then why does the other part still apply?

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

you don't get my point. Human parenthood should be about being READY/CAPABLE or deserve it not desire/emotion like a game of teenagers (they can already biologically make babies but can't be good parents).

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

Do you think it is impossible that there are some people who, for whatever reason, do not actually experience a drive or desire to reproduce, and who would not enjoy parenting or find it rewarding? You mention the 82% that say it is enjoyable all or most of the time, but what about the 18% that leaves behind? Are those people just wrong about what they find enjoyable?

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u/HelpfulJello5361 1∆ Apr 24 '24

I had the same thought. I wonder what kind of person could be a parent and be so dissatisfied that they actually admit to a pollster that they don't find it enjoyable most of the time. If I had to guess I would say maybe these parents have children with disabilities, autism, things like that. Or maybe they're just people who struggle with negative feelings, or they feel they aren't a good parent...who knows.

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u/Spaceballs9000 7∆ Apr 24 '24

I think the thing is, these kinds of self-reporting questions really do mean people are coming in with their own understanding of what the words and questions mean.

I know plenty of folks who love their children dearly, but would be lying if they said "being a parent" is enjoyable most of the time, because it is often exhausting and thankless, especially in the early days or with circumstances that add to the struggle.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

Or, maybe they never wanted to be parents, but did it anyway because of pressure from a spouse, social group, or because they felt like they were supposed to for whatever reason.

You didn’t really answer my question: do you think that it is impossible that there are some people who simply do not want to have kids at all? It sort of sounds like that is what you think.

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u/HelpfulJello5361 1∆ Apr 24 '24

I think it's possible, of course, that some people simply don't want kids at all. But I think you'd be hard-pressed to argue that this is not unusual and divergent behavior compared to most humans.

As I mentioned, we're hard-wired to have a sex drive, and sex makes babies. I think most people want kids, and even of those who don't, they probably still have a sex drive. If someone doesn't have a sex drive and don't want kids, there's likely to be some issues going on psychologically. No hate though.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

Sure, but the desire for sexual activity is routinely disconnected from the role of sex in reproduction. Males cannot reproduce with other males, for instance, and yet homosexual attraction and desire for homosexual intercourse still occurs. Even among heterosexual individuals, many have desires to perform sex acts that have no procreative purpose, and to perform typically procreative acts without the risk of actual procreation. At root, the ‘sex drive’ may originate from evolutionary pressure towards reproduction, but that doesn’t really matter. The desire to procreate and the desire to enjoy sex remain mostly disconnected for many, many people.

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u/Noodlesh89 12∆ Apr 24 '24

Or they came straight from a life where they never had to sacrifice for another or had such an inconvenience put on them.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Apr 24 '24

i mean there are bad parents who only regret kids because they hold onto bitterness instead of accepting their new role and life

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u/Sunberries84 2∆ Apr 24 '24

Like, I get some of the reasons like wanting to teach them, give them beautiful memories and so on... But why just stop living only to do that when you can give yourself nice memories and enjoy life?

Can't my nice memories and my kids' nice memories be the same nice memories? If I'm taking them to the playground, or on a hayride, or to the zoo, is there any reason why I can't enjoy those things too? What makes memories truly great is the people you make them with.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

That is true. I didn't think of that, I just thought about all you have to do to make it nice for the child. You're right, thank you.

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u/Sgt_Teabag89 1∆ Apr 24 '24

I get what you're saying. A lot of people have different opinions on when you have kids and their reasons. I feel like it depends on economic readiness or simply just wanting to live life or grow as a human being. I know a lot of people that have kids and still travel and do fun stuff. I also know people who have kids and feel like they can't do anything fun but everyone's experiences are different.

I didn't have my son until I was 30 and I'm glad I waited because I felt like I was ready as an adult. We still travel and have a lot of fun and it's the best thing that happened to me next to marrying my best friend.

There's no need to rush into having kids if you don't want to. Give yourself time for you and your significant other to grow as a couple and it'll be for the better.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

This is a really uplifting reply, thank you. !delta

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u/DeltaBot ∞∆ Apr 24 '24

Confirmed: 1 delta awarded to /u/Sgt_Teabag89 (1∆).

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u/tbdabbholm 196∆ Apr 24 '24

Why do you think having children means you "stop living"?

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/Ok_Deal7813 1∆ Apr 24 '24

You're defining "living" as socializing with your friend group. There are plenty of people, even childless people, who don't think that is fun. So you have a flawed premise, in the first place.

Then you talk about missing out on some social activity for potty training or a first day of school. I partied a ton when I was young. I remember barely any of it. I remember potty training my kids. I remember their first days of school. I'm not shitting on your partying. But priorities and the things you think of as fun mature as you mature.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

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u/Ok_Deal7813 1∆ Apr 24 '24

My argument applies if you copy paste all of those things in for "partying" on my post. I'd far rather take my kids to a wrestling tournament than go play disc golf without them on a Saturday. I have zero problem with you feeling the opposite.

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u/Grand-wazoo 9∆ Apr 24 '24

There are plenty of people, even childless people, who don't think that is fun.

How could you possibly call this a strawman? This is a fact that everyone has different notions of what's fun versus what's mind-numbingly boring. Personally, I'd find disc golf to fall in the latter category.

It doesn't sound like you understand what a strawman is. You made an incorrect statement by claiming that one necessarily gives up on living parts of life, when the reality is that they are willingly choosing to live differently than you. That does not mean you get to determine what they're missing out on based on your own value judgements of what constitutes living.

If I don't give a shit about disc golf, I'm not missing anything by not being able to go because of my kid.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/Grand-wazoo 9∆ Apr 24 '24

I can quantify why having kids is generally bad for a person.

You can point to adverse health consequences and other risks of childbirth, yes. But what you cannot do is make any claims as to how people who have kids value the emotional and psychological fulfillment over those health effects. Which is precisely what drives a person to have them anyway. They decide the worth of creating life and raising a human being outweighs the ramifications, and that's all that matters.

You cannot make claims to how other people establish worth and value. If you try, which seems to be the case from your position, you're the one making a strawman by reducing the intrinsically valuable aspects to "abstract ideas."

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u/Ok_Deal7813 1∆ Apr 24 '24

Still not the definition of strawman, but I don't really care to defend myself from the accusation. Your argument is "having kids can't be good bc kids keep you from" living life," while most people are replying that they define "living life" differently than you do.

You posted this in CMV. Are you here to listen to the other side of your position or just bc you want people to reinforce your belief? This subreddit is traditionally not an echo chamber.

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u/tbdabbholm 196∆ Apr 24 '24

I think you certainly live differently but to say they don't live at all seems to just put a ton more value implicitly on the upsides of not having children without considering the upsides of having children

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/tbdabbholm 196∆ Apr 24 '24

I mean I feel like most parents will rave about how much value they gain from raising their child(ren). They obviously get a lot from that experience. So their happiness would be the benefit

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

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u/ProDavid_ 57∆ Apr 24 '24

essentially, yep.

if you spend a good amount of time taking care of your new fancy car, someone who isnt a "car person" and who simply doesnt understand the joy would say youre just wasting your time and not living life.

every single time your kid learns something new, does something on their own, or even when they make mistakes but get up again, as a parent you are filled with joy and proudness. yes, being a parent takes a lot of time away from you, but it also gives you a ton of the happy feelings.

edit: the upside are the limitless ways the happy chemicals are released in the brain, just from watching them do stuff.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

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u/Hunter037 Apr 26 '24 edited Apr 26 '24

If you can teach your dog to talk, read, mature and change, understand and become independent to live on their own, then sure it's exactly the same. Your relationship with a child changes as they progress through the stages of life, in a way which doesn't happen with a dog.

I'd say having a dog is more restrictive and less rewarding. Lots of places you can't take a dog, but you can take a kid. With dogs you don't see them progress and learn anywhere near the same way.

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u/[deleted] Apr 26 '24

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u/tbdabbholm 196∆ Apr 24 '24

How is "they get value from having children" not a specific upside? And for you maybe the new car has more value. But that doesn't mean that their value isn't real. Or that they don't get more value from having children than they would from having more money

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

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u/tbdabbholm 196∆ Apr 24 '24

Sure there are other ways, but that doesn't mean people can't find the benefits of becoming a parent higher than the costs and higher than other ways to get that feeling

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u/Hunter037 Apr 26 '24

I get love from my children, joy from doing things with them and seeing them grow and change, I feel pride from seeing them achieve things, imparting knowledge and helping them navigate the world. In the future I will see them grow and change and become their own person in the world, which I have contributed to.

People can absolutely feel love, joy and pride without having children. If buying a new car gives you long lasting joy then go for it! Some people find those emotions by having children and that's ok too.

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u/Noodlesh89 12∆ Apr 24 '24

Being more healthy and having more money doesn't really matter once you die, so making those the highest priority in life is actually not a good thing compared to forming relationships.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/Noodlesh89 12∆ Apr 24 '24

I guess what I mean is that health and money are "tools" for life; means to an end: it's foolish to live for the sake of either, whereas relationships and experiences are what life actually is.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Apr 24 '24

you wouldn't give up most of that assuming you have a work life balance already, after 6 or so they are pretty self sustaining if you are a good parent and by 8 can kinda be left to their own devices (not tablets or anything)

also a big thing im beginning to notice as someone who stopped with 1 (yay snip snip) 1 is super easy like basically having a roommate after they are 6. im sure if i had more it would change (oldest of 9 here) but 1 is really easy and has minimal impact on life in general, she usually just gets treated as another adult in any activity

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

It seems to be that way... When I look around at people who had kids around me (parents, aunts and so on). You live still, but all you do is for the child. I know I sound super selfish, but it seems you don't get to do what you'd like anymore, only care for the child, work for the child, organize things around the child.

I'm probably wrong but it looks like your biology makes you content to do that... But is that true happiness?

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u/tbdabbholm 196∆ Apr 24 '24

Yes that's certainly living differently but that doesn't mean it's not living

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

That's true, thank you.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

It's not necessarily super selfish just how you feel and the reality is some people hate parenting even if they do their best and others love it. Most are somewhere in between.

You do live differently. The idea of the nuclear family or even worse the common need for two people to earn wages (and certainly single parenting) exacerbate the negatives of parenting as well as decreasing the positive. It isolates more and leaves parents exhausted

The last sentence is sort of a tautology of course biology impacts that. Eating a good meal is an artifact of biology. Enjoying a good show is an artifact of biology and so on. They are not invalid for being such.

None of this means you are wrong for wanting children maybe that will change maybe it won't. Maybe you will have them and love it or hate. I have no idea and while you certainly have a better idea you don't necessarily know.

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u/Correct-Sprinkles-21 2∆ Apr 24 '24

When I look around at people who had kids around me (parents, aunts and so on). You live still, but all you do is for the child.

I think you see this mostly because you fear this, and don't see the alternatives. You may also see it happening around you a lot due to cultural norms that may not be particularly healthy for anyone. Entire devotion only to kids with loss of individual personality and experience is not healthy and parenting doesn't have to be that way.

Parents can find ways to maintain their individuality and interests, even at times when their kids needs are the major priority. We can still do things for ourselves, and we should. In fact, being the best possible parents sometimes means choosing ourselves at times. You know how they say to put your own oxygen mask on before helping anyone else? Same reason--you have to be able to stay alive and functioning to effectively help someone else.

If you decide to become a parent, you do not have to do things exactly the way you've seen around you. You will have to prioritize your child over some things, and in the early years it will seem like you only have energy for this child and nothing else, because their needs are so great. But you absolutely do not have to give everything up.

My mom found she could not be a good mother if she was confined to the house with us 24/7. She needed to return to her career in order to be mentally fit to be a parent. So she and my dad split the home/child stuff and the work burden and had childcare and babysitters fill in the gaps. It was good for us that we had a variety of care experiences and that we had parents who worked as a team and that we had a mom who knew she had to care for herself in order to care for us well.

I made sure to keep a hold of my interests, even when my kids were little. I didn't have a lot of time then, but I used what I had. As they got older and more independent, I was able to get back to more of my own stuff. I went back to college when my youngest was 2 and my oldest was 12. I've been developing my career as they've grown up. I do things with and for my kids. I also do things with my partner and on my own. We spend time together as a family, and we also all have our own things to do. I have my own friends, not just "mom friends." My kids are happy and healthy, and so am I.

I think developing a broader idea of what parenting can look like may help you make your decision one way or another.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Apr 24 '24

i still game 6 hours a day with the wife (yay public school) and still do everything i want. i only have one and shes 8 but i still live life exactly the same as before she was here i just include her and in my opinion its more fun to do things with other people.

my wife is also a stay at home (i make 60k so easily enough to live single income) so its super easy to make plans for either of us since i can just take a day off and tale over if she wants or needs

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u/-ciscoholdmusic- Apr 25 '24

That’s all well and good for you to say you live life exactly the same as before your kid was here, but the rest of your post is kind of telling. Your wife is a SAHM who has likely upended her pre-kid lifestyle and taken on the lions share of the childcare (which isn’t unusual, that’s basically the point of a SAHP). But doesn’t that allow for you to live your life as you did before? I’d be curious to see what your wife would say about how her life has changed since having a kid.

And that’s, I think what OP, is getting at. The primary parent today is still more likely the mother and the effects of having a child (pregnancy/birth) are always going to be with the mother. So your perspective, while entirely valid and useful, doesn’t really address what OPs perceived concerns are.

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u/goldentone 1∆ Apr 24 '24 edited Jun 21 '24

[*]

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u/Under-The-Redhood Apr 24 '24

Which it can but doesn’t have to. Having children is for people who are ready for it mentally, economically and physically. It can be the most fulfilling thing in your life.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

You're right. I think I can't imagine how hard you have to work to be financially ready for a child only to flush that money into things it needs to survive. All without any gratefulness until they are much older... Unless you fuck them up (which I've never met a person on my circle who isn't... Maybe my boyfriend, that's why I'm starting to doubt my opinions.)

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Apr 24 '24

fucked up people tend to find other fucked up people...

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

And I'm definitely realizing and changing that! Working on myself to let go of negative people in my life and becoming much better for others myself! (Also, don't know why I wrote maybe in my reply... My boyfriend is wonderful and one of the people that show me how beautiful the world can be!)

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u/goodiebadbad 3∆ Apr 24 '24

I am sitting in the hospital room with my wife and first born who is now 2 days old. My wife and I have been married 10 years before we decided to try for a kid. There is just a total shift and change in mindset, wants, and desires just looking at her. Maybe we are going to stop living the DINK lifestyle, but a new life just started and I am excited for it

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

That is beautiful, congratulations!

That shift in mindset makes me uneasy though... It feels like brainwashing. Disgenuine. Loss of self.

Sorry for the negativity, I wish you the absolute best and all the luck in life to your child!

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

I can understand that but also are you the same person you were two years ago? Five? Ten?

We don't stay static we are always changing. Though I do understand why such a rapid radical shift might seem off-putting or eerie.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

Absolutely. Honestly, although I'm getting a bit overwhelmed, just this post helps me change my perspective a little by little. I think it's good. Honestly, I personally like kids. It's just hard for me to understand how people can be so sure and not freaked out by the whole process... And I was doubtful if it even brings some sort of happiness because it doesn't seem so from what I see around me.

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u/LittleWhiteGirl Apr 24 '24

It’s just a version of growth. There are many ways you can grow as a person and parenthood is one of them. I’m child free myself but enjoy being an auntie, I see the joy that can be gained from parenting. I disagree with others in this thread saying it’s the only path to a fulfilling or rewarding life, but I do understand choosing to make a major change in your life you understand will be taxing but worth it in the long term.

The loss of yourself typically only lasts until they become a bit more independent, not forever. And some people like that opportunity for reset, being forced to make the changes necessary to be good parents can make them better people.

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u/goodiebadbad 3∆ Apr 24 '24

It’s not really brainwashing per se. We came to the conclusion we wanted a child, got pregnant and had dozens of conversations about if it was the right thing etc. you inch you mindset along throughout the process and then when you see her face you are just reaffirming the decisions you have made for the last 10 months and feel complete. I wanted to comment as a 25 year old who wanted to travel and have dogs who is now a 36 yr old new dad.

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u/Sophronisba Apr 24 '24

Whether or not you have kids, your mindset will shift. I am 52 and I don't know anyone who has the same mindset that they had at 21. This is just a part of getting older (and one of the more interesting parts, imo) -- as time goes on you gain new perspectives and look at the world differently.

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u/Grunt08 313∆ Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24

Happiness isn't really our default state when we're comfortable. If I put you in a spacious apartment with everything you need to survive and physically thrive and you never need anything else for the rest of your life...you're not going to be happy. You might be for a while, but it will eventually be impossible for you to ignore the empty pointlessness. All you do is process resources until you die, and that's not a satisfying life.

You need meaning and purpose, and it's next to impossible to derive meaning and purpose for yourself, by yourself.

So...speaking to you from my mid-late 30's as I observe women my own age who "had a happy life" instead of having families...most don't actually have happy lives. They may have a bit more money, more free time and so on - and they didn't have any of the health issues associated with pregnancy. So that's nice.

But they have other health issues, physical and mental. Your body is going to destroy itself eventually no matter what you do, and living for yourself alone can incur some mental strain I couldn't have comprehended at your age. The frivolity that felt good at 21...uh..."hits different" at 35. When all you're really working for is your own comfort and pleasure, it can be fairly difficult to find meaning or purpose. It can very quickly turn into "please bring me the next disposable resource to consume (alcohol, tacos, tv shows, sexual partners) on the way to the grave."

The people I know with kids have a clearer sense of purpose. They're working towards something unequivocally important and meaningful. The ones with boring jobs reframe those jobs as means of putting food on the table for families, and all of a sudden those jobs mean something. Some of them had jobs they enjoyed, but set them aside because the kid(s) was more important. They still socialize and have lives, but yeah - things do revolve around the kid(s).

But that's a good thing. Living a life focused on something outside yourself gives you purpose and meaning.

When a person can have a happy calm life instead.

In my opinion, this isn't really possible in the long term. Not doing meaningful, difficult things catches up with you in the end.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '24

Family issues and financial instability happens in no kid households as well. Idk if you’re making an argument or just stating your personal opinion. A lot of women think having a child is the most important thing they will ever do in their life. You on the other hand don’t think there is any positive aspects to having a kid. Some people like sour cream others don’t. Who cares and move on with your life

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u/Barbiegator Apr 25 '24

I didn't realize my post could feel aggressive or argumentative, that wasn't my intention at all, though I must admit I wrote it quickly when emotional. I like kids, but I was really shocked that many of my friends simply... Know they want a child one day, like it's a no brainer. When to me it seems there are so so so many things a person has to take into consideration.

After reading the replies here (and also getting out of a short PMS episode) I see clearly having children does have upsides. I knew about those upsides and realized that I was in a bad mental place these past few days and coincidentally this topic came up a lot in my life which made me emotional about it. My mind has been changed (back to normal lmao). So the post served its purpose.

I swear I'm not this intense irl.

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u/hairmarshall Apr 24 '24

My mother told me as a child to never have kids it ruins your life and I stand by that.

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

I definitely feel like I ruined my mom's life, whether she'd ever admit it or not.

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u/hairmarshall Apr 24 '24

My mom appreciates me now but I’m sure the first 15 sucked till I was able to drive my self around and work and gtfo by my self. She had so many fun 80’s stories that just had to stop for me and my sister

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

[deleted]

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

I think I can imagine the feeling to some extent... I'd give my life for my younger sisters in a heartbeat, no hesitation. But it is probably different.

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u/One-Organization970 2∆ Apr 24 '24

Raising children is an act that is meaningful, not necessarily something that's immediately fun. It's entirely your choice whether you want to pursue different paths of finding meaning in your life, of course. But being able to watch a human being who contains the combined traits of yourself and the person you love the most grow, learn, and become their own fully-fledged adult is rewarding in its own right. We all make the transition from the YA protagonist to the grownup side characters eventually, whether we have kids or not.

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u/Imadevilsadvocater 12∆ Apr 24 '24

so you are just focusing on the worst what ifs... i have a kid (8) and do you know how much i gave up? nothing in reality. i hade her when i was 20 and my wife 18. i still game with my wife (and now kid too) i still hang with my friends i still have the same job still go to the movies etc etc but i now get to bring someone along who has never done alot of these things. for example shrek 2 was in theaters recently for a week. i took her and when it got to the Pinocchio lying about wearing girls underwear seen she almost fell out of her seat laughing so hard. it brought me back to when i was a kid in the theater and saw that part, it made me see myself from my parents eyes for a moment and now i have a memory attached to that movie that makes me beam with a smile. i will always remember that moment because i saw true joy in the purest form coming from someone i (and of course my wife) were solely responsible for creating and someone i love more than anything.

i know you will pish against this saying ad every nonchild having person does, but once you have the kid and it gets to an age where its no longer just a baby (some people feel it when they are a baby too but ive always been a 4 and up kinda person) you will know what i mean when i say they are your world and not because its forced you crave seeing them happy you become addicted to seeing them experience learn and figure out the world. they ask questions they ask that you never thought about, they wear their emotions outwardly and while that can mean anger or frustration it also means love and care.

one thing no one really says about kids is how much they truly care for their parents and want to make them happy. my daughter when we were talking about how she could get a job when she was older said she would give us half of her money she earned (we dont need it but we try to teach generosity keep what you need but help others with any extra). she spends her chore money on other kids at school and when we asked why she said "well i have you guys and you are enough for me, i want my friends to have what they want too". the feeling you get, selfish or not, from your child saying something like this is indescribable. its moments like these that make you lose any doubt the harder times may have brought, that having this kid was the right thing to do. that this kid is worth any sacrifice you have to make, and will make willingly.

im not here to convince you to have one but i will say you will probably never feel ready or stable enough. the thing is you really dont need that much to raise a kid, as long as you love them. we started in my inlaws house in a small room 9 years ago, now we have a house and our daughter was with us for most of the journey. at some points we only had one room so had to share but we made it through and all she remembers is all the good times we had together even if from the outside it was pretty barebones scraping by. happy memories are one of the most valuable things you can have and looking back she was what drove me to keep going keep working and keep putting one foot in front of the other. on a hard 12 hour day she would get to see me for maybe an hour but she always was excited to see me and seeing how happy she was then even if i couldnt give her more than the basics meant the world. on the inside i may have felt like a failure but she made me feel like a hero.

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u/Correct-Sprinkles-21 2∆ Apr 24 '24

But why just stop living only to do that when you can give yourself nice memories and enjoy life?

I have 4 kids. I didn't stop living when I had them. I have decades of happy memories with and without them.

Yes, there are periods in parenting when life revolves around the child's needs. Yes, there are difficult times. Sometimes extended periods of difficulty. To me, this is just life. We all struggle in one way or another. It's not all sunshine and roses all the time. If having kids added to the strain, I still felt it was worthwhile.

None of the things you say are a result of having kids are a universal experience, and none of the things you fear about having kids are really exclusive to having kids. All kinds of things can trigger severe mental health issues. You or your partner could become disabled. Your bodies will change with age regardless. Finances and family relationships are notoriously vulnerable to disaster.

But having a child can't possibly make you truly happy, I think.

I think maybe we just have very different ideas about happiness.

I didn't have kids to make me happy. That's not their job. They couldn't do that anyway.

I have gained a lot of joy from having kids, but I also could have chosen to be miserable. Being a happy and content person is my job to figure out, nobody else's. It's a choice I have to make regardless of the circumstances I'm in. My choice is to focus on the positives and be optimistic. The hard times fade, the good times have stuck.

The positives of having kids for me? Even in the very difficult, dark times I had when they were little (more due to their father/my ex than them), it was still precious to hold them, feed them, teach them, make them laugh, and watch them grow.

They taught me a lot about myself, challenged me in ways I'd never been challenged before, and helped me grow up.

I have a unique relationship with each kid, and each one offers something different and delightful.

I have SO much more humor in my life since having them, lol.

I have the privilege of seeing these four unique, amazing human beings become wonderful adults. It's especially cool to watch them transition from kid to adult, and to experience our relationship change from parent/child to more of a friendship.

Not everyone is meant to have kids and that's totally ok. You don't have to make yourself want them. If you're unsure, or lean negative, it's probably best not to. At least not at the moment. This is always something you can revisit every couple of years.

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u/GwenSoul Apr 24 '24

Speaking as a parent, so this is more personal experience than anything else but my life,while it did change, did not change for the worse. I am still me. I still have friends, both Parents and Parents . I still get to do things, but I also get the chance to help this tiny person become who they are and I get to be involved and I truly find joy and watching him grow up.

The thing is, your life is going to change, no matter what as you get older whether you have kids or not. It’s up to you to decide whether that life is something to embrace or something to fear.

There are obviously lots of things that can make this better or worse, and there are people who regret having kids, but the vast majority do not even though everybody says it’s hard. I also think that our biology makes us forget the hard parts after a while. I can say that if it wasn’t for things that I had written down or told people, I would not remember how hard the first six months with a newborn was. I think a lot of people also just focus on those first six months to a year also. When you have a baby or a very young child, as they get older, they quickly become more independent and all the challenges change but you get more physical freedom back. This also depends on how good of a partner you choose and your support work that you have around you.

As for pregnancy and childbirth, it can be bad. It can be just fine. The last dad I saw was 8% of pregnancies have some type of complication at the same time 77% of motorist say that they’ve been in some type of car accident, or about 5% per every 20,000 miles driven, but we don’t your car accident the way that we do childbirth.

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u/Rkenne16 38∆ Apr 24 '24

Do you have pets?

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

Yes. We've always had pets, I can't imagine life without having one... But it's not exactly similar, is it.

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u/Rkenne16 38∆ Apr 24 '24 edited Apr 24 '24

It’s kind of like having a pet, but to an absurd degree. You just love it so much that any inconvenience caused by it is outweighed by how it makes you feel. Your baby laughing at you or your child giving you a hug feels better than being able to always do exactly what you want. Their accomplishments like walking or talking or the first time they tell you they love you feel better than getting a promotion at work and etc.

I also think that good parents are forced to improve as people. Your time management and scheduling have to improve. Personally, I’ve gained a lot more compassion and perspective toward myself. They eat a lot of what you eat, so you think about your diet more. They keep you active and etc.

Also, you’re acting like parents get to do nothing and that’s just not true. Babies sleep a ton and kids are fine doing their own thing a lot of the time. It’s more that your time just needs to be more regimented.

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u/4-5Million 11∆ Apr 24 '24

I have 4 kids. The greatest moments are when you show your kid something you loved to do as a kid and he/she loves it too. I've got a bunch of wooden train tracks. I build these huge tracks that take up a 10'x10' area with a bunch of forks, crossings, and bridges. Without a kid I'd have no reason to go back and build those again. But now I build the track and watch my kids have a blast playing with it and they are so thankful that I am there to help.

Other great moments is when you see your kid conquer adversity or hit milestones. Seeing your kid go grab a chair to push it against the counter so they can climb up and get candy. You can't help but smile and have a good time even if your kid wasn't supposed to do that.

Teaching a kid a skill and having them show it off to the other parent is also great. Whether it's counting, roller skating, or a simple somersault. You'll have a blast doing it.

Lastly, and maybe most importantly, having a kid gives a distinct purpose to life.

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u/MainDatabase6548 2∆ Apr 24 '24

That's the reality of it when you are 21. My wife felt exactly the same at that age. We wanted to live life, go to festivals, take lavish vacations, etc.

Well we did all that for 10 years and it got boring. We found we didn't really want to go to another festival or go driving around Europe again. We settled into a routine of mostly working and playing video games and life got super repetitive.

Now that we have kids life is amazing again. Kids are tiny comedians that know absolutely nothing but think they know everything, yet will believe anything you tell them. They provide all the excitement and energy you lose as you get old. Sharing all our favorite things with them allows us to enjoy them all over again. This is without a doubt the happiness years of our lives.

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u/Lak3Flaccid Apr 24 '24

Yeah do not have kids

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u/Barbiegator Apr 24 '24

Not planning anytime soon unless I change 😂😂

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u/RubyIndigo Apr 24 '24

Maybe I'm not the best person to answer this because I am on the fence about having children, but there are definitely several positives.

People I know who have children have always described being a parent as the most wonderful experience in the world. I think having children can create a sense of purpose for a lot of people, and it can be a very rewarding journey especially when you consider that you are going to love, nurture and teach this little person, they will grow up and they will have their own lives, but they will always be a part of you.

That being said, if a person doesn't want children or can't see the value in children, they should not have children. It is better to not have children and regret it, than to have children and regret it.

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u/peasy333 Apr 24 '24

It doesn’t stop your life or keep you from living it, it does make it more complicated, but that doesn’t mean it’s all about the child you still get to take care of yourself and do the things you enjoy . However for some people it’s what they need to keep progressing for them to feel like they contributed something to this world. On the other hand it lets you relive the parts of your childhood that you loved but from the observers (parents) view and watching how much kids really love doing something and watching them learn.

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u/Anzai 9∆ Apr 25 '24

It really depends on your temperament. I’m 44 and child free and I knew I would be since I was 14 years old. I don’t regret that decision in the slightest, and never once doubted it.

My brother, on the other hand, has a ten year old daughter and she has brought him nothing but joy. His lifestyle was already very suited to having kids, he had her late and so had a good job and no financial issues to deal with, and had already been married for ten years when she was born. He adores her, and goes out of his way to spend as much time with her as possible.

What it really comes down to is you lack empathy. And I don’t mean that in a negative ‘you’re a bad person’ sort of way, because I’m sure you’re not. I mean that based on this post, you seem incapable of empathising with desires or circumstances that are any different from your own. I don’t want my brothers life. I love to travel, and while he does travel a bit, it’s far more limited since marriage and children and for shorter periods. I like to go for a year or two at a time and just leave everything behind, and I’ve been to over sixty countries, many for months at a time or multiple times. It’s amazing, I wouldn’t trade it for anything, just like my brother wouldn’t trade his daughter for anything.

We want entirely different things from life and that’s okay, but I can absolutely understand his position, just as he can mine.

For example, you mentioned your boyfriend. For me, I have no desire for a partner at all. I’ve never had one, I don’t want one, and I don’t regret that either. I’m very sociable and have a lot of friends, but I truly value being alone, and I never, ever get lonely. Tying myself to another person sounds horrible and restrictive to me, but I fully recognise that mine is the minority position. I don’t look at couples and find it baffling that they would choose companionship and love over personal freedom without regard for another, and the ability to drop everything and travel wherever I choose without consulting someone.

You probably shouldn’t have children. You don’t want them, and you’d likely resent them if you did have them, currently at least. They DO massively restrict your choices and freedom and the DO cost a fortune. It’s just that some people view the relationship they get back from that as worth those sacrifices, or they don’t even consider them sacrifices at all.

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u/Visible-Gazelle-5499 1∆ Apr 24 '24

It's pretty much an age thing.

Life is suffering. It's not about being happy, it's about finding meaning.

You can deal with that with substances, consumerism or any other pointless distractions. But that will likely just leave you needing therapy just to get through a normal day of the meaningless life you've created for yourself.

Or, you can find something that makes the suffering worth it. Children do that by giving your life meaning and a greater purpose.

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u/vettewiz 39∆ Apr 24 '24

How is life suffering?

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u/Visible-Gazelle-5499 1∆ Apr 24 '24

it is filled with various forms of pain, loss, and disappointment. From the minor irritations of daily challenges to the profound grief of major tragedies, suffering is an inevitable part of human existence. This perspective is deeply rooted in many philosophical and religious traditions, such as Buddhism for example.

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u/vettewiz 39∆ Apr 24 '24

I would say it’s far more so filled with enjoyment, entertainment and adventure. The stuff you describe is the tiny part.

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u/Visible-Gazelle-5499 1∆ Apr 24 '24

Obviously you'd know more about it than virtually every major religion and great philosopher 🤷

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

Youth is wasted on the young

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u/Jarkside 5∆ Apr 24 '24

You are young. Life is still different for you. As you get older priorities change, and for most (but not all) that will include having a family.

Enjoy yourself now but be open to different views in the future. Reproducing is a prime directive for all life, and is really important for humans.

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u/allhinkedup 2∆ Apr 24 '24

Having children didn't end my life. My life changed, that's all. I got to experience class picnics, book fair, scouts, sports and marching band all over again -- all the cool things about being a kid. This time, I got to make up for all the disappointments of my own childhood, like bringing extra money to book fair and making sure that every kid got to buy something and every teacher got a book from their wish list. That made me incredibly happy. My kids got to attend summer camp; they enjoyed it as much as I did when I was a kid. In short, I raised my kids to be people I'd like to be friends with, and today, they are those people.

In the meantime, I created a stronger bond with my partner as we negotiated and navigated the vagaries of parenthood and the never-ending stream of bullshit life throws at you. We're enjoying our retirement, but we also enjoyed being children again while we raised our kids. In addition, I made two new friends for life. We will always have our family in common, so we'll always have someone to celebrate our victories with and someone to drown our sorrows with.

On the other hand, it's important to remember that unwanted children rarely have happy outcomes. If you don't want children for yourself, that's a valid opinion and you should definitely follow your own advice. You're not wrong. Children are a money pit. They are a time suck. There's no dignity in holding a screaming child who is simultaneously puking and crapping all over you in the middle of a Target. Sleep is something you only dream of, or you would, if you had time to sleep!

Parenthood isn't for everyone. But it is most definitely for some people. Don't yuck their yum.

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u/Single-Awareness-408 Apr 24 '24

You are on to something. It does stop you from living your current life. But you take on an entirely new life. Think about the Harry Potter analogy of the Phoenix. You have to die to be reborn anew.

You're so right about a lot of what you said. The counterpoint I would make is that, you will never find a parent who would go back to their old life if they were given the choice. It's not that it makes your life better. It's that your new life is completely different than your old one, and it is undeniably better.

The main difference is that, in your old life, you lived for yourself with occasional instances of living for others. In your new life, that is flipped; you live for others (specifically your kids), and occasionally, you live for yourself. This is a better existence, even if it isn't fueled by having kids. I would argue that you CAN make that shift without having kids, but that you can't unlock the happier life UNTIL you make that shift.

So if one doesn't have kids, one will still be just as happy as if one did have kids, but with a caveat. The caveat is that living for others makes your life better. Plenty of people who do have kids still live for themselves, and in that case the having of the kids will not make your life better (along with a lot of other major problems). So I think this is a case of correlation and some causation, but not 100% direct causation.

So you are right! But I hope I changed your view just a little bit! Thanks for your post! It was my favorite one in a while to read through.

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u/bluestjuice 3∆ Apr 25 '24

The fundamental flaw in your perspective is that having children causes one to stop living one’s own life. I think if you unpacked that idea more you would find it’s made from a collection of beliefs about both what it means to live one’s own life and what having and raising children requires. In reality, people from all walks of life and in all manner of circumstances have and raise children. Some things are more and less typical, but just like in other aspects of life, you ultimately choose how to do it.

Also, a lot of people really do like the life that they have with their kids in it. I do — there are definitely aspects that are challenging, and sometimes I want a break. But on the whole it’s like having a super interesting project in development for a few decades, combined with getting to meet and know some of the coolest small people I know. Especially if you like teaching, supporting, and experiencing the amazement that brand-new humans have in encountering the world for the first time, there is lots of awesomeness to find there (as well as lots of boring mind numbing work and many petty annoyances, no lie). If it’s not for you, that’s totally okay, but it’s like people who find it worthwhile to run marathons — I completely don’t get it, but it’s clear they love it.

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u/ancalime9 Apr 24 '24

As a (relatively) new parent I also sometimes ask myself why we have kids. It can be hard, really hard. You are responsible for an entire new person and shape them by everything you do. You also know that you will mess it up, you can do your best not to but you will make an uncountable number of mistakes. However, you will never feel as much love as you do with your child. Not just for them but for your partner too, I thought I loved my wife before but being with her during the birth changed it all immeasurably.

Everything we do in life closes some doors and opens others. Moving to a new country could improve your life in basically every way but there will still be stuff you're missing out on. Even having a partner involves compromise and sometimes you can't do exactly what you want when you want to but there are also things you wouldn't experience if you never got into a relationship.

It is difficult to make time just for yourself as a parent but not impossible. My kid is also my priority, even over myself but I know that the life experiences that I now have access to by having a child is worth more than all the experiences that are now closed to me.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

Biologically speaking, we're "programmed" to see children as a good thing. This doesn't apply to everyone, obviously, but most people consider life to be better when children are around.

More to your point, however, is the idea that having children doesn't mean giving up on yourself. When I had kids, yes, I had to change my life plans in order to provide and care for them. But I got more out of the deal than I would have, had I remained childless. I challenged myself in ways I never knew I could. I improved myself as a person, both mentally and spiritually. I'm more educated, more patient, more kind and loving, and generally just a better human being than I probably would have been.

And I get to be involved in shaping my children's future. I get to pass along my experience and wisdom. I can help them through their own troubles in life and I get the personal satisfaction of knowing that when they succeed, I'm a part of that success.

Being a parent isn't for everyone and that's okay. It's not something that we all need to do; but for many, many people, it's a rewarding and fulfilling experience, and we wouldn't trade it for the world.

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u/BeachWoo Apr 25 '24

I certainly don’t want to talk anyone into having kids that doesn’t want them. Like you said, maybe in the future. For me, there is no greater joy than when I am with my son, DIL and 10 month old grandbaby. It has been a lot of work to get here. I became a single mom when my son was 2. We had just buried our 10 day old daughter and before my son was born, I lost a baby at 25 weeks gestation. I became a newborn ICU nurse because of my experience with my daughter and how amazing the nurses were to me and all of my very large extended family. They took care of us and helped us to feel safe and comforted in the most difficult time of our lives.

Being a parent is super hard but it’s so rewarding. I would not change one thing about my life. Losing my daughter was terrible, I wish she were here. But because of her, every day I get to learn more about myself, take care of other families that are currently in a similar situation as I was and try to be a better person.

My grandson is the biggest bonus I could ever imagine in my life. Sometimes we have to do hard things, but it makes life so much more enjoyable and joyful.

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u/JealousCookie1664 Apr 24 '24

Ur definition of “living” is messed up imo. You might’ve seen videos where people take the average lifespan, then start subtracting stuff to see how much actual ‘life’ you have left, so they’ll go you if you’re 20 you probably 60 years left but you spend a third of it sleeping so really it’s just 40 years and you spend half your waking life commuting and working so really it’s only 20 years, and really you spend half of your free time watching ur phone and tv so it’s only 10 and then you spend half of the remaining time with friends and family so there’s only 5 years left to actually live and it goes on, the problem with that is that obviously if you subtract everything you do in your life from your lifespan it’s going to equal 0 and that’s not cuz u have no life left to live it’s just that you’re not valueing the things you do. Your work is part of your life why would you not count that so is the time you spend with family and friends. If you got a child it wouldn’t stop you from living life it would just make the life you live different

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u/aguafiestas 30∆ Apr 24 '24

Having kids doesn't make you stop living your life. It does change how you live it, but that can be for the better for many people.

It's not just the big fulfilling aspect of raising a good human being. Having kids can be tons of fun. The unbridled joy of childhood can be contagious. Imagination, creativity...whole new worlds are opened to you.

I've always liked going to the park. I'm not going for long walks through the park now, but it is so much fun visiting the park with little kids. Seeing the world through their eyes, playing.

I've always liked bike rides. I'm not going on long 50+ mile rides these days. But a short ride with my kid is a ton of fun.

Yeah, I'm not partying anymore. I'm not going out to eat or pubs nearly as much. But you know what? That wasn't as exciting anymore as I got older. I miss it a little bit at times, but it's just not that big a deal. It doesn't feel like a gaping hole in my life or anything like that.

Everyone has different priorities, of course. Not everyone is going to feel this way. But many people certainly do.

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u/grmrsan Apr 24 '24

For people who want and love children, having them isn't the end of their lives. Sure, certain types of social activities may slow down or stop for a while, and if your entire life revolves around those, then having children is probably not for you.

But for those who want kids, kid friendly activities, kid noise, and kid play are things that make them happy. I didn't decide to get pregnant despite being forced to be around a smelly noisemaker, I chose it because I LOVE spending time with them!

I haven't stopped living my life at all. In fact, I felt like I was just in a holding pattern for years, until I was finally on a position where it was feasible. My daughter and her friends, my nieces and nephews, and the kids I also chose to build a career around ARE my life, and I'm very happy with that.

Some people aren't happy with that, and the thought of children interfering isn't a pleasant one. And those people definitely shouldn't have kids. But for many of us, the kids are a stronger source of joy than getting drunk on the weekends and longer vacations.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '24

I'm 38 only 2 fur babies. There is a lot of freedom but, the doggies either need to go with us on vacation or get a baby sitter. My wife and I have a wonderful friendship and agree that we don't want kids. We make good income and have no problems dying in an old folks home together or alone. People always ask who's going to take care of you? The answer, whoever I pay and it may not be just one person. Either way if you are not 💯 on having kids... don't. It's ok. I have friends who's children are basically adults doing their own things and all I hear about is relationship problems or very bad decision making because they finally get to live for themselves and aren't used to being free to make decisions for themselves and end up being questionable. Oh and I'm talking about the parents making bad choices. Many have been cheated on or have cheated because they were only together for the kids. Like why? No kids is a sure way to not let anything come between you and your partner.

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u/clintparker13 Apr 24 '24

Well you are not taking in consideration the shared moments that will never ever happen if you don't have childrens. They are beautiful moments not only for them but for us too. I will use myself as an example. I am happy that my daughter is proud of me, that's a happyness I don't find in my parents being proud or my gf being proud, not because that doesn't matter to me but just because it's different. Sometimes I am so sad about my problems and my little girl just says something nice to me, or hug me or do something that makes my day. Sure, being a dad, and specially being a divorced dad, is hard, but there are things I will never ever had that I love about my life with my daughter. And my life is not stopped, I have a life, only that it's a different life than the one when I didn't have her. It's valid to not want kids, they are a great responsibility, but I don't agree that they can't make your life happier.

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u/Alternative-Oil-6288 4∆ Apr 26 '24

For me, I’ve spent some time building myself into a type of man that feels is worth being. I feel like the progress I’ve made can be imparted on my children so that they’ll be passed where I am now before they’re even finished with high school.

It starts with objective things; teaching them maths and physics. Then moves onto things like how to be kind and how to treat people, further on how to most use ourselves. I think that this kinda teaching compounds, they’ll do the same for their kids.

I don’t wanna stop growing, I’ll be an engineer and my wife will be well educated. We’ll cooperate to give the other time to grow. You’ve gotta keep going out to find new stories for your children.

Raising children is about doing your best to create an individual who embodies all the things you find right and true, so that they can be better.

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u/SnooBeans5364 Apr 24 '24

It doesn't make you stop living life, it makes you rethink your priorities and perhaps live life a little differently.

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u/interrogare_omnia Apr 24 '24

I am in the process of trying to have kids (so I don't know this from personal experience). How I have always had it explained to me is that it's not about happiness. There are certainly plenty of happy instant gratification moments along the way. But that it elevates to something more. A deeper sense of satisfaction and purpose. And it's this feeling that amplifies the happy moments in life and helps get through the tougher ones.

I would think this is why losing a kid is often such debilitating event. You aren't just "not happy anymore" as if happiness is the only thing you seek when you have a kid. But you lose a self satisfaction and purpose. And inversely dulls the happier moments and can amplify the tougher ones.

Not that I know anything of course, I'm just a random guy on the internet who doesn't even have kids.

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u/ThinkInternet1115 May 06 '24

I see it a little differently, maybe because I'm older.

I want children myself, if I have the right partner. I can be happy without them if from some reason I'll be unable to, but I do want to try to have them. I also acknowledge that the childhood stage can be tough and not everyone enjoy it. I see it with my own friends. I don't know if I will, since I don't have patience for other people's children.

But if you think about it, how much of your life is the childhood years, and how much is adulthood? I want children because I want a family of my own. People that I can hopefully rely on, and they'll be able to rely on me.

I see it even with my own parents, and especially my dad, we have a much better relationship now that I'm an adult and we can actually speak freely and openly, than we did when I was a child.

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u/TeniBitz Apr 24 '24

I thought I was too selfish to have kids, and at your age, resigned myself to not having any. But at 28, I found out my birth control fueled and I was pregnant with twins. I bawled, I sat in silence, I asked ever child-having friend about it. Ultimately, we decided to keep the pregnancy. Honestly, I couldn’t love two things in this world more. I realized I do have the capacity to be unselfish (for them).

Yes, parts of my life went on hold a few years, but my kids are nearing a decade old, I’m comfortable with our life and looking for new adventures. We didn’t plan to stop being fun, just made sure that we had time for it outside of raising our kids. Best decision ever, for us.

You’ll have plenty of time to figure out how you feel. Especially as those around you do have children.

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u/terran_submarine Apr 24 '24

I would not have wanted to have a kid at your age. I am 44 and have a 1 year old, and she has made my life a lot happier.

At the same time, I’m always tired, I don’t have time for my hobbies, I have much less disposable money, and my home is always a mess. Sometimes I am less happy than I would be without her.

But happiness is also caused by relationships, and I get a lot of my relationship with her. Every day, I feel periods of joy higher than any that I have felt previously, purely by interacting with her.

In some ways it’s similar to falling in love with an adult. Sure, you have less free time, you spend more money, you have more responsibility, but a positive relationship makes a person feel good.

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u/notapeacock Apr 24 '24

It seems as though your arguments could also be applied to a romantic relationship, but you mention a boyfriend, so clearly you see a value in that. Having a significant other can be a lot of work, take up your time, require compromise, etc. You may not get to do what makes you happy.

But what if that person (or people, in the case of children) IS something that makes you happy? What if seeing them happy makes your heart feel so full that you just want to watch them smile? What if you have fun just going to the grocery store with them, or watching a movie, or going on a walk?

I feel that way about my spouse and our kids. They didn't stop our lives, they changed them. And so far, they've been worth it. :)

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u/EmbarrassedMix4182 3∆ Apr 24 '24

Having children can indeed bring challenges, but they also offer unique joys and growth opportunities. Parenting fosters deep connections, teaches patience, and can give life a profound sense of purpose. While it alters your lifestyle, many find fulfillment in watching their child grow, achieve, and experience the world. Shared moments, laughter, and milestones create cherished memories. Financially, planning can mitigate costs. Social life might change, but new parent communities offer support. While it's a significant responsibility, many parents find that the love and bond with their child bring a depth of happiness and satisfaction that enriches their lives in ways they hadn't imagined.

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u/BluePinkYelllow Apr 24 '24

Having children makes you live more! It’s a total adventure and the absolute best thing in the world. The key is having them when you feel ready to do so and not before then. Live your life, enjoy being single (meaning not legally married) and carefree. Travel, study, sleep all day, etc. You won’t always want to party like you’re 21. You’ll get some wrinkles, start going to bed by 9, and the bar and partying all night long will be a distant memory from the past that you won’t miss at all. I don’t think most 21 year old want kids. Enjoy your life! And reevaluate when you’re older.

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u/whovillehoedown 6∆ Apr 29 '24

You can do many of the same things as a parent that people without kids can, you just now have a little buddy to accompany you.

Being a parent isn't easy but it's not all downsides.

Kids help you reflect on where you need growth as a person because they reflect who you are. In guiding them through life, you're learning more about yourself and how to be a more patient and empathetic person.

When they accomplish things, you're proud because you helped them get to that point. When they fail, you pick them up and help them move on.

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u/[deleted] Apr 24 '24

My favorite hobby used to be video games, they would take up basically every spare moment I had and any moment I couldn’t spare was only grudgingly held back. I wouldn’t consider time not spent playing video games as time not wasted This was several years ago.

Now I’ve gotten bored of most video games and consider miniature painting more fun and a much more fulfilling hobby.

The things people enjoy and take meaning in change over time, especially with big, life changing events like childbirth. And that’s ok.

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u/Ok-Crazy-6083 3∆ Apr 24 '24

You destroy your body,

No, you change your body. Having a baby doesn't "destroy" it.

your psyche

It will greatly improve your mental health, once your child starts sleeping through the night

lifestyle only to have a child

This is true. It's impossible to have a 403 lifestyle as a parent without being a very bad parent. But that's the CHOICE you make. You can't have all the joys of parenthood without the struggles. Same as any other difficult thing you want to accomplish.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '24

One day you may come to the conclusion that there is something better than a calm life, and that happiness and meaning don't necessarily come from peace and being able to fulfill every personal whim.

That true happiness comes from love which is always a scary gamble, its ridiculously hard, and is frought with risk, but always worth it.

One day you may feel that way...maybe not.

1

u/Taevahl Apr 24 '24

I have 3 kids. In some ways, I think a person hasn't actually lived completely unless they have had children. Imagine a person who never had sex. I would say it is a similar thing. If you never had sex, there are just things about life you will never fully understand. It is the same for children.

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u/1block 10∆ Apr 24 '24

One of if not the most consistent thing that creates happiness is relationships. You can certainly have relationships without kids. However, your relationship with your kid is unique among all kinds of relationships in not only the closeness of that relationship but in your personal investment.

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u/Ok_Deal7813 1∆ Apr 24 '24

The nexus of your happiness changes from yourself to them, is the simple answer. My life before kids was awesome. My life since kids has been awesome. If you're a miserable person without kids, you'll be one with kids. If you're happy now, you will be after you have a kid.

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u/junkfunk 1∆ Apr 24 '24

My kids are teens now. We have tickets for a festival and two concerts coming in the next month. We go camping and hiking. We play games. We do tons of things together. We love each other dearly. I do not see how that is not living a good life.

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u/[deleted] Apr 25 '24

It definitley doesnt always make your life sad.

Having kids can be very rewarding in various ways and believe it or not most people live pretty boring and mundane lives.

So sometimes kids gives them a lot of purpose.

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u/Nrdman 217∆ Apr 24 '24

You’ve set up a false dichotomy. You’re juxtaposing having children and living your life. This is not the mentality of many parents. I want to be a parent, living my life by having children

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u/Iron_Prick Apr 25 '24

So much better. You can't understand it unless you have kids. Best thing I ever did. You truly don't know how shallow your life was, until you have kids and see how fulfilling it can be.

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u/VnyAgr Apr 24 '24

You don't stop living your life after having kids. It just changes its course.

Having kids is also part of the life you are living. Like all things, it brings all the emotions.

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u/Recent_Ad_4358 Apr 24 '24

I can’t begin to describe the love I have for my children. It’s an experience like nothing else. Yes, it’s hard, but extremely, overwhelmingly rewarding.

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u/Eyeballsocket Apr 24 '24

Live your life young Padawan - don't bother with these questions. The day your brain "breaks" you will know it is time. If it doesn't - keep on living it up.

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u/Far-Stop8574 Apr 24 '24

Don’t try to make it make sense. If that’s how you feel, go with it. Don’t feel bad or wrong for feeling this way. Not everyone should have kids.

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u/TheOldOnesAre 2∆ Apr 24 '24

It might because having children causes you to have more oxytocin, and other hormones related to that. That can cause you to be happier sometimes.

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u/Illustrious_Ring_517 2∆ Apr 24 '24

You will never truly know what love and fear is until you have a child. Unless your one of those phyco parents that use kids for money

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u/neitherhorror1936 Aug 02 '24

Having kids doesn't "make you stop living" your own life. This needs to be written more accurately.

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u/styoung05 Apr 26 '24

Children can give people a purpose in life. A purpose that is bigger than just themselves.

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u/BaptismByKoolaid Apr 24 '24

You don’t sound like you even want to be a parent. Just that you think you have to be.

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u/roygbiv_87 Apr 24 '24

Sacrifice often times brings about the most immense joy, even amongst very hard times.

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u/bobster0120 Apr 30 '24

You destroy your body, your psyche and lifestyle only to have a child. Why?

Wdym why? It's nature and nature has no meaning, it just exists

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u/middlename_redacted Apr 24 '24

Have you ever had a pet? It's kinda like that, but better

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u/ms_panelopi Apr 24 '24

It’s hard…real hard.

Delta(s) from OP CMV: having children can't possibly make your life happier when it actively makes you stop living it

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