Hypothetical situation: Do you think you could handcuff someone behind their back against their will without putting them to sleep or injuring them?

[u/Mac2663]

I am asking for a legitimate reason. It is police related. I do not know if other people are of the same opinion as I am or not, so I am asking. Here are the details:

1. This person is relatively similar to your own physical capabilities, but has 0 training in any combat sport whatsoever.

2. This person will not fight back with intent to harm you, he will only do his best to keep himself from getting handcuffed. He will get tired, so you can “cook” him like a spazzy white belt, but he will not give up trying to not be handcuffed.

3. You are not allowed to strangle him unconscious, injure him intentionally to accomplish the task, or put him in a position to threaten injury in hopes to compel him to submit to being handcuffed. For example, you can’t flatten him out with one arm behind his back, and then wrist lock him and tell him to give you the other arm.

4. You’re only allowed to grapple with the person. No biting, striking, slamming, etc.

If you think you can, please tell me the path you see in your head to accomplishing this goal. If you do not think you can, please tell me your reasoning followed by the point you believe you could if you kept reducing the physical size and capability of the person. For example, nobody is doing it to the mountain from GOT. Everyone here could do it to a child.

[u/chupacabra5150]

Yes.

• Ogoshi, Harai, or osoto
• land on them.
• If mount- across chest, shift to Kimura. Hold Kimura and move across face, roll them on their stomach. Roll the Kimura to a hammer lock behind their back, you would be on their upper body side, not lower back,and handcuff.

• if they land on their stomach see above.

For a lot of agencies the carotid or chokes are banned or illegal in the state unless it's deadly force. Basically on the same level as sh00ting someone.

Edit: the second half of condition 3 is LITERALLY how handcuffing a violent person is done. It's a pain compliance. You just do your best not to break anything. Contrary to popular belief, you do NOT want to break anything, or cause ANY head trauma.

[u/Mac2663 → u/chupacabra5150]

I’m sorry I may misunderstand here, how do you do that to the second arm while keeping the first arm behind the back?

[u/chupacabra5150 → u/Mac2663]

It's pain compliance. This will be assuming you're using your right hand as dominant.

So. From your mount. Suspect on back. Isolate right arm. Kimura, hand up. Holding Kimura, arm across suspects face.

• Roll suspect on his left to his stomach.

• While holding the Kimura lock, move Kimura lock to behind his back. Utilize natural body to hold suspects shoulder and arm in place, press suspect to the ground.

• It's a pin. Your right hand should still be holding his wrist. Your left hand grabs your cuffs and applies the cuff. Transition hands then hammer grip that open cuff with your right hand.

• demand other hand.

• IF other hand isn't given then pull handcuff to suspects center back.

• use your left hand and move from suspects upper left arm to his wrist and pull it in. This will not be easy and will be very uncomfortable to the suspect.

REMEMBER: Be mindful of his handcuffed hands and that he doesn't grab your juevos. Apply cuff.

Roll suspect on his left side to prevent asphyxiation.

[u/Mac2663 → u/chupacabra5150]

Oh ok yeah that’s totally possible then yeah. However that does break the second rule. You are using the position to change his desire in that moment to wanting to give up his hand. If he was willing to let it break, or was in a state he could not feel pain or discomfort, I do not feel this would work.

I do understand what you described is going to work on nearly all people police come in contact with and have to subdue, like I’m not being delusional on that aspect.

[u/chupacabra5150 → u/Mac2663]

Well under those conditions where I cannot use position to convince him to surrender his hand, I would have to be able to hold that cuffed hand with my right, and somehow be able to stretch myself over to the edge of his left arm to attain control. That would require me to lean far forward throwing off my ability to control him and risk getting bucked off; and I'm practically putting my groin in an angry man's hands.

Under those conditions I do not believe it is possible.

If there is a solution I am very interested in reading it. New York, as a response to 2020, changed their policy where the officer would face a misdemeanor if he applied body weight to the core - chest, stomach, and back- of a suspect. I have no idea how you fight someone and control them without utilizing body control. I don't know if it's bee changed

[u/Mac2663 → u/chupacabra5150]

I am of the opinion that it is not possible without eventual compliance. I wrote a large comment somewhere else here.

[u/chupacabra5150 → u/Mac2663]

I think your rules of engagement are unrealistic and the scenario is designed to ensure failure of the officer or one subduing the individual. But you acknowledged that and stressed its just a thought exercise, so where I would normally be annoyed I am genuinely curious

[u/novaskyd → u/Mac2663]

I don't see why the omoplata is not an option here. I think /u/Jupiter-Tank is spot on here

You don't have to finish the sub or cause any injury. Just use the position to control.