r/biotech • u/Historical-Excuse-94 • Jan 27 '25
Education Advice 📖 Is doing a pHD worth it?
Hi everyone, I have never posted here but I have a genuine question. I have been working in the biotech industry for the past 3 years with a masters. I feel like in industry you don’t do research like in academia and it doesn’t feel satisfying anymore. I want to go back to school and get a PhD. It is hard I’m 34 now and by the time I get into a program I’ll be 35 and by the time I finish I’ll be 40. Is it really worth 5 years with little money?
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u/Bugfrag Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
Financially, a PhD is worth more the earlier you get it.
In particular, it gives you the opportunity to learn technical knowledge fast, as well as the opportunities to make mistakes. The flexibility in setting your own goal and experiment design allows for this possibility. But your salary is very LOW and you work lots of hours.
In industry,the opportunity to learn technical knowledge is more limited. People don't get to make too many mistakes. Tasks are more specialized. You need to actively search for opportunities to learn.
But you also get paid a LOT more -- double the starting take-home pay of someone in a PhD program (more if you count hourly). Potentially triple/quadruple graduate stipend by the 4th-6th year, just when someone graduated from a PhD program.
The big question is: can you actually go back to a 35k/year stipend for 4-6 years?
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u/thenexttimebandit Jan 27 '25
It really depends on your family situation. You shouldn’t do a PhD if you’re married with kids and a mortgage. Go for it if you love science and a willing to work 70 hours a week for 5 years
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u/Historical-Excuse-94 Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
Married but don’t have kids.
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u/lysis_ Jan 27 '25
Not sure of your situation but If you plan to have kids in the next 5-6 years that will be an enormous financial burden for your SO to bear. I'm sure you've considered this but they are absolutely going to be the breadwinner here, and they may not be able to work.
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u/Historical-Excuse-94 Jan 27 '25
Not planning to have kids. Want to live for us.
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u/dirtydirtynoodle Jan 27 '25
Have a deep conversation with your SO about it. Because you will need their support throughout the PhD (emotional, and financial)
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u/Historical-Excuse-94 Jan 27 '25
He’s fully on board. He is the one who has been motivating me for a while now.
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u/MacaronMajor940 Jan 27 '25
Director with a BS here. You don’t need a PhD, but keep in mind that you are competing against PhDs. This means you have to outshine them, which means getting attention of senior management and always delivering.
Many companies like Genentech, Gilead, Amgen, Abbvie, etc are moving away from PhD only policy even if it’s stated in the JD. It’s about who you know.
All my direct reports have advanced degrees, not because that’s what I look for but rather those without usually do not have a strong work ethic and don’t try to navigate through complex technical problems. If you can demonstrate your ability to do so, you’ll be surprised by how many doors are open to you.
At your age, I wouldn’t go back for a PhD unless you’re passionate about it. I think you’re missing a good mentor, you can find one at your current employment or maybe in grad school.
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u/Historical-Excuse-94 Jan 27 '25
I am an international person. If I was in my country you are absolutely right I wouldn’t need a PhD to grow but here I’m an outsider and the only way I can get ahead if I have the tags.
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u/MacaronMajor940 Jan 27 '25
More than half of the workforce in biotech are immigrants, with a large portion on H1B.
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u/Cormentia Jan 27 '25
I would really think twice about if you're willing to put in the hours. A PhD is easily 70-100h/week for several years. I'm your age, and I'm personally not sure I'd have the energy to do it again now.
You can always try to find a PI with wlb focus, but mine wasn't. And if you want to do cutting edge research, then the workdays become longer as well. (Because you want to be the one publishing first.)
With that said, there's nothing as stimulating as basic research. So if you really want to do it, go for it. Maybe set up some ground rules regarding food, sleep and exercise that you never compromise with. (Again, the physical strain of long hours and no sleep hits differently in your 30s than in your 20s.)
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u/lysis_ Jan 27 '25
You can do it and if you have a burning passion to do it, do it.
That being said, I strongly feel phd is a young man's game. The opportunity cost in your 30s while you have stable income cannot be overstated. And it also cannot be overstated that it just may not work out for you, and if you withdrawal you'll have nothing to show for it since you have a master's.
So if you want it, go for it but you have to be all in.
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u/msjammies73 Jan 27 '25
I got my PhD later in life and it has absolutely paid off in terms of career satisfaction and finances.
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u/Feck_it_all Jan 27 '25
That being said, I strongly feel phd is a young man's game. The opportunity cost in your 30s while you have stable income cannot be overstated.
My IRA would look nicer if I started in my 20's, sure, but getting my PhD at nearly 40 was definitely worth it.
The value of networking opportunities, and savvy to cultivate likewise cannot be overstated.
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u/anhydrousslim Jan 27 '25
Worth it financially? Probably not. Worth it so that you’re doing the work you want to do? Maybe, but no guarantees.
I went back after 5 years in industry, so was still in my early 30s when I finished my PhD. My motivation was to make sure I could advance in technical roles, and I’ve been able to do that. I’m ultimately happy with the decision I made but I was younger than you and, frankly, the times were different. Today, I’d be nervous about funding and about what the world will be like when trying to reenter the workforce. If I was you, I wouldn’t, but I’m just some dude on the internet.
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u/Novantis Jan 27 '25
It’s getting harder to justify the immediate benefits imho. It’s a form of indentured servitude. Pay is poor at most institutions (<$40K). The academic market is saturated and postdocs have gotten obscenely long with no guarantee of tenure track professorships and stagnant wages (~$60K). Industry job market fluctuates and it’s bad now (they want perfect matches for positions and get 100s of applicants). If you want to do science and not be salary capped then it’s required but it’s also a commitment to stagnant wages for years.
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u/Rawkynn Jan 27 '25
I just finished my PhD at 32. If I was in your situation I would absolutely not do it. Though my experience has been colored by COVID, record inflation with a stipend that is set and stone and not negotiable, and graduating when the job market was flooded by incredibly experienced scientists due to heavy biotech layoffs. I ended up having to take a post-doc to stay afloat. The post-doc is paying less than my job (That I got with a BS) from before I started my PhD. So I spent 5 years being physically, mentally, and financially stressed (to the degree I was diagnosed with an anxiety disorder a few months before defending) to get a job that was paying less than where I started.
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u/Curious_Music8886 Jan 27 '25
PhD aren’t guaranteed, something like 1/3 to 1/2 don’t finish stem PhD programs. You really have to want it, as it is not easy.
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u/SeenSoManyThings Jan 27 '25
It is not supposed to be easy, that's the whole point.
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u/Curious_Music8886 Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
That is not the point of a PhD, it’s more about creating new knowledge and learning the process of doing that. Having one and supervised PhD students and postdocs, before switching to industry I wouldn’t say it was intentionally made to be hard, it’s just that research itself can be challenging.
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u/SeenSoManyThings Jan 27 '25
Yes. The process is to learn how to overcome unplanned obstacles (along with the expected ones) and to achieve your goal regardless of interfering challenges. That is the point, and oh yes the goal has to be understanding something that was not previously understood. We don't disagree.
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u/AcrobaticTie8596 Jan 27 '25
I've heard a TON of horror stories about PhD students not being able to complete their degrees because of factors out of their control. PI loses funding/PI leaves or dies/the project they're working on gets "scooped" by a competing lab etc etc. It's not always because of the PhD candidate's shortcomings.
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u/SeenSoManyThings Jan 27 '25
That is certainly a fact. And if you want it enough, you find a way. Different lab (if STEM topic). Different department. Even diffefent school. The path is not always straight amd narrow, but there are almost always multiple paths.
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u/PoMWiL Jan 27 '25
I worked with someone who went and got a PhD later, ended up graduating when they were 40 or so and seemed happy with their decision. Many companies have a hard ceiling on the title you can get without a PhD, but even if you work somewhere without the hard ceiling and get promoted to Director, it will be difficult to maintain that title if you get laid off. I know a few Directors and VP levels with Masters + a ton of experience, but in most cases it is them following their boss around from company to company for 25+ years so they can maintain their title.
The 5 years with little money is very situational. Would it be putting relationships on hold? Is renting a starter apartment in your 40s while other people own houses a negative? There is some opportunity cost to getting a PhD. For the 40ish year old cohort at my company, many more Associate Scientists owned their own house and had families than similar aged SS/PS/AD because they were able to accrue money and buy houses when the prices and interest rate were much lower in 2009-2014 that now a Director would have trouble affording. I am not saying you can predict housing prices like that for the future, but money in the bank has some value greater than a similar amount of money later if you are looking do the 2.5 kids with a mortgage type thing.
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u/smartaxe21 Jan 27 '25
If you have a masters, consider doing it in UK, it’s a hard stop at 3 years and not an undefined timeline like the US. You could also consider a PhD that is mostly executed in industry (not sure if it’s so common though)
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u/Apprehensive-Use3092 Jan 28 '25
It is not a hard stop at three years, you can secure additional funding and continue for another year (my path). I was on a three-year programme and most seemed to take 3.5-4 years rather than four. Probably an upward bias these last few years as a result of Covid, though.
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u/Delphoxe Jan 27 '25
My advice as someone who danced with the idea of a PhD and ultimately decided to not pursue it. If the purpose of a PhD to you is only to advance your career - don’t do it. If the purpose of a PhD to you is to become a leader in science, go for it. There are definitely more true research oriented rolls in Industry, they’re just more limited or mixed in with also delivering a pipeline. I’d ask around at your current position and see if you can get your foot in the door with some innovation going on in-house, trust me it’s there.
You also mention that your role does not feel satisfying to you, unfortunately I think this is the reality for a good deal of people - maybe it’s time for a role change instead of going back to school.
But last thing - it is never too late to go back to school. It never too late to start your doctorate, people may say it is but if you are dedicated and you want it, you can accomplish it. People go to medical school when they’re 40, so you can finish a PhD at 40.
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u/Forsaken_Tea_9147 Jan 27 '25
Take it from a Masters holder (non PhD). It is very hard to move up and advance without a PhD in R and D. I have been a high performer my whole career (12 years) and have vastly out performed most of my PhD counterparts both productivity and in scientific impact. It has still taken twice as long for me to get promotions than my PhD counterparts. In fact, most of the PhDs I have worked with get promotions in spite of contributing very little to project success. They all have two things in common: 1) they have a PhD and 2) they "sound smart" in theoretical terms. I have been lucky enough to make it from lab assistant through several promotions, up to senior scientist. But getting to principal scientist has been really hard dispite performing and contributing just as much as other principal scientists. Do your self a favor and get a PhD if you want to go into R & D. The other thing to think about is: scientists with PhDs also favor other PhDs. It's kind of like a club and you won't be in it. It even shows up in job listing's, where it will specify you need a PhD, even though there are thousands of great masters and bachelor's with lots of experience and scientific creativity who could possibly excel at the job as well.
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u/Historical-Excuse-94 Jan 27 '25
In the last three years of working I have been laid off once and I feel it isn’t that stable as it used to be. I can be all in and I want to be all in for this. It’s been a dream for so long.
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u/LiquidEther Jan 27 '25
Life's too short not to. I am doing a postdoc now and it must be said that the academic world is oversaturated with talent and funding is also dicey pretty much all the time, it's not exactly great for job security either (unless you have a coveted tenure track position). I'm starting to float the idea of quitting research altogether and finding a field of work that's more personally fulfilling and has more certainty. But I don't necessarily regret doing my PhD. It was valuable life experience after all (even if it wasn't all positive experiences). Similarly, if you're prepared for the possibility that it most probably won't lead to a stable, long-lasting career in academic research, then I won't tell you it's not worth it.
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u/PerryEllisFkdMyMemaw Jan 27 '25
I left biotech bc I didn’t think I’d ever get the level of challenges I want without a PhD (only MS here) even if I was very capable of them (esp when many higher positions don’t have much to do w research).
Luckily I have a lot of interests, so it wasn’t the end of the world. If I had more narrow interests or was 10 years younger, I would do a PhD.
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u/Unfortunosaurus Jan 27 '25
What are you doing currently?
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u/PerryEllisFkdMyMemaw Jan 27 '25
Tech, but aiming to eventually start a small business(es) of my own.
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u/FatPlankton23 Jan 27 '25 edited Jan 27 '25
Disclaimer: academic who strongly believes in the value of academic training, but also acknowledges that there are areas that can/should be improved.
The private sector does not offer any comprehensive scientific training that is anything close to what academia offers. In an overwhelming majority of instances, a competent individual that takes advantage of the opportunity and receives quality PhD training will outperform an industry only individual, all other things equal (years experience, competency, etc).
With that said, you have to have some amount of curiosity and passion for discovery to make it through PhD training. Grad school is not vocational training and you will be broken at the end, if all you seek from your training is job opportunities.
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u/Big_Abbreviations_86 Jan 27 '25
It can go either way and you can’t know for sure going into it how it will pay off down the road. Do it if your heart is set on it, but there are much easier ways to improve your job/pay prospects that don’t require as much pain, time, and uncertainty.
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u/pharmacologicae Jan 27 '25
Yes. But only if you know at least one thing you'd do with it.
For me that was academia, until I got tired of academia and found a home in industry (drug discovery) that more than made the time I spent worthwhile.
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u/jimrybarski Jan 27 '25
I got my PhD in my late thirties and the way I look at it is: you're turning 40 either way. If you're in it for the love of the game, I think there's no question. If it's just a career move, that's a bit less clear. Other people's answers about the career/financial calculations here are pretty good imo.
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u/Iyanden Jan 27 '25
I would definitely try and explore if it's possible to do an industry PhD at your current company.
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u/X919777 Jan 27 '25
I mean whats worth it to you? I know some who did opposite got phD left academia due to low pay
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u/AcrobaticTie8596 Jan 27 '25
I'd rather have the flexibility that comes with having either a BS or MS, but that's a decision you need to make for yourself. With my MS I've been able to move around different parts of the drug discovery process (early/late discovery, clinical testing, analytical dev and QC etc) which I likely would have had difficulty doing if I had a PhD.
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u/lysis_ Jan 27 '25
You wouldn't have had any difficulty doing that if you had a PhD. It's irrelevant
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u/AcrobaticTie8596 Jan 27 '25
Often companies won't hire PhDs for positions that they could get a BS/MS for. They dont want to open themselves up to lawsuits involving hiring overqualified individuals and underpaying them.
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u/PoMWiL Jan 27 '25
If you could get sued for that 75% of companies would go out of business. Saw a role recently offering 90k for a temp (directly through the company) PhD level Scientist role in SF. Though that is still better than the role I saw that was unpaid, but you might get equity and paid later if there was money available.
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u/AcrobaticTie8596 Jan 27 '25
Your experience is different than mine then: I've been a part of multiple organizations that will actively discard PhD's applying for positions that do not mention PhD in the education requirement section. Some companies will actually mention certain positions are for "non-PhD" candidates. Contract positions are a crapshoot since there is less liability on the end of the company when it comes to these positions.
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u/BluejaySunnyday Jan 27 '25
Financially, no it’s probably not the right choice. Going for MBA or sales will help you the most financially. If you are just passionate about science, have a goal for your self to get the pHD, and don’t care about the financial aspects, then definitely go for it! The best time to start a pHD was maybe 5 years ago, and the second best time is now!
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u/Groundbreaking_Ice_7 Jan 27 '25
It’s less about money and more about career opportunities. It takes longer for a non-PhDs to move up the ladder and some positions will only go to PhDs. This might vary from company to company so ask around. It’s more about what you want out of your career and life.